Shadow Mir Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 32 minutes ago, BZL8 said: I never said anything about wanting a complex story. I don’t care if the story is simple. What I want is a story that doesn’t feel derivative of past games. In other words, you don't want something like what FE6 did. Right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BZL8 Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 38 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said: In other words, you don't want something like what FE6 did. Right? If FE16 can do something different in its narrative that sets it apart story-wise from past Fire Emblem games, it is a day one purchase for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanguard333 Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 11 hours ago, Ae†her said: You mean fire magic is not fire because it's magic? I don't buy into that, sorry unless your using he literal definition of Ember in which case I'm confused because that's not that they're using. Also there's the big other thing about magic you're missing here, which is how dangerous it can be if put in the wrong hands. You can't put a sword in everyone's hand and expect them to be able to do the same kind output as with magic. The existence of such a force would also make common people very wary, they might just go on witch hunts because they're afraid of it. It's not a reasonable thing, magic. No; he's trying to say that spells in FE aren't as powerful as you seem to think they are. A fire tome in FE is the magic equivalent of giving a guy a sword. In fact, just like with swords, a character being able to use magic in FE requires training and, in any game other than Gaiden/SoV, actually owning the spell tome. So, you need to own the weapon (spellbook, in this case), and you need to go through all the not-insignificant training required (and it's always implied to be a significant amount of training in every FE game) to actually know how to use it. Plus, there are limits on how powerful those spells are capable of being, from the power of the spell tome itself, to the power of the wielder, and it's almost never enough to do anything particularly scary (the ones that are, are the exception, not the rule). Every mage in FE is someone who went through all the training to learn magic on their own time, and for good reason: they are going through a lot of training, all to get something that, while a different kind of power, is ultimately the same amount of power as a good sword or bow & arrow. So, in short, yes, you can give everyone a sword and expect to do the same kind of output as with magic: none if the people aren't trained, and a decent amount but still with clear limits even if they are trained. The kinds of magic humans are capable of in FE is not enough to outweigh good weapons. As far as witch hunts go, just no; not in FE. Why? Every continent in Fire Emblem has been exposed to magic for hundreds of years. They are accustomed to it. Combine hundreds of years of exposure with the fact that very few mages are especially powerful (and those that are, are usually in high government, religious, or military positions anyway), and people just don't care about it. They're used to it; they're exposed to it. If there's any kind of magic that the people aren't accustomed to, there's usually a good reason for it: usually it being evil or twisted magic, or it coming from a being capable of far more powerful magical feats than a human could ever hope to achieve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaxis1 Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 4 minutes ago, vanguard333 said: As far as witch hunts go, just no; not in FE. Why? Every continent in Fire Emblem has been exposed to magic for hundreds of years. They are accustomed to it. Combine hundreds of years of exposure with the fact that very few mages are especially powerful (and those that are, are usually in high government, religious, or military positions anyway), and people just don't care about it. They're used to it; they're exposed to it. Unless you're a Loptyrian in Jugdral. Then you will be the one hunted in said witch hunts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanguard333 Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 17 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said: Unless you're a Loptyrian in Jugdral. Then you will be the one hunted in said witch hunts. True; but they weren't being hunted for practice of magic; they were being hunted for being supporters of Loptyr. I'm not justifying it; I'm just those witch hunts were after something very specific, not magic wielders in general (if I recall correctly; feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaxis1 Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 1 minute ago, vanguard333 said: True; but they weren't being hunted for practice of magic; they were being hunted for being supporters of Loptyr. I'm not justifying it; I'm just those witch hunts were after something very specific, not magic wielders in general (if I recall correctly; feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). Honestly, I wonder why they were even called witch hunts, since witch hunt IRL are for hunting down magic users. The actual witches here are either the witches we see in Fates, or the one in Echoes, where they are girls whose souls have been offered to Duma, neither of whcih take place in Jugdral. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanguard333 Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, omegaxis1 said: Honestly, I wonder why they were even called witch hunts, since witch hunt IRL are for hunting down magic users. The actual witches here are either the witches we see in Fates, or the one in Echoes, where they are girls whose souls have been offered to Duma, neither of whcih take place in Jugdral. True; very true. And thanks; that helps my point I was making before about FE continents and magic. Alm reacts with horror when he learns of witches, not because of magic, but because of the sacrificing their souls to Duma. I feel FE, for the most part, does a really good job of handling magic. People are used to magic from people practicing it for a long time. Theoretically anyone can pick up a tome, but using magic requires a lot of dedication and training, and there are limits to how strong a human can actually get, and it's what people do in an effort to get even stronger, i.e. practice dark or twisted or forbidden magic, that is treated with suspicion, fear, or disgust; not magic in of itself. Edited February 7, 2018 by vanguard333 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaxis1 Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 1 minute ago, vanguard333 said: True; very true. And thanks; that helps my point I was making before about FE continents and magic. Alm reacts with horror when he learns of witches, not because of magic, but because of the sacrificing their souls to Duma. I feel FE, for the most part, does a really good job of handling magic. People are used to magic from people practicing it for a long time. Theoretically anyone can pick up a tome, but using magic requires a lot of dedication and training, and there are limits to how strong a human can actually get, and it's what people do in an effort to get even stronger, i.e. practice dark or twisted or otherwise forbidden magic, that is treated with suspicion, fear, or disgust; not magic in of itself. Dark Magic isn't actually evil, but rather goes to places that the human mind cannot fully handle. In Elibe series, Canas explains that its not dark, but elder magic. His brothers went so deep into dark magic that they became comatose, and Brimmamod went so deep that he has neither gender nor personality any longer, but simply mirrors people. When Henry tried to teach Ricken dark magic, Henry explained that after using it, your mind goes through a moment of euphoria and then depression. Like Ghast said, dark magic is basically like cocaine. But this also means that very few people have the proper aptitude for dark magic, but even then, doing so can warp a person's personality. So not everyone can actually learn dark magic easily, and the average human are just more likely to be driven insane by it. Light and Anima Magic are just much easier to handle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slumber Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 42 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said: Dark Magic isn't actually evil, but rather goes to places that the human mind cannot fully handle. In Elibe series, Canas explains that its not dark, but elder magic. His brothers went so deep into dark magic that they became comatose, and Brimmamod went so deep that he has neither gender nor personality any longer, but simply mirrors people. When Henry tried to teach Ricken dark magic, Henry explained that after using it, your mind goes through a moment of euphoria and then depression. Like Ghast said, dark magic is basically like cocaine. But this also means that very few people have the proper aptitude for dark magic, but even then, doing so can warp a person's personality. So not everyone can actually learn dark magic easily, and the average human are just more likely to be driven insane by it. Light and Anima Magic are just much easier to handle. It says a lot that even in Archanea and ESPECIALLY Jugdral, that classes that are explicitly said to be masters of all forms of combat like Master Knight and Baron, cannot use Dark Magic. The all-powerful Sage cannot use it. Only people who have been taught to use it can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Knight Posted February 7, 2018 Author Share Posted February 7, 2018 15 hours ago, Ae†her said: You mean fire magic is not fire because it's magic? I don't buy into that, sorry unless your using he literal definition of Ember in which case I'm confused because that's not that they're using. Also there's the big other thing about magic you're missing here, which is how dangerous it can be if put in the wrong hands. You can't put a sword in everyone's hand and expect them to be able to do the same kind output as with magic. The existence of such a force would also make common people very wary, they might just go on witch hunts because they're afraid of it. It's not a reasonable thing, magic. No i meant what @vanguard333 explained perfectly... I used Pokemon terminology because i thought everyone was familiar sorry... FE Magic is "weak"... u see it in the animation, its not like shonen anime magic where the characters can blast huge amounts of elemental magic in one GO.... Someone firing a FE spell doesn't seem different from firing an arrow... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanguard333 Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 (edited) 11 hours ago, omegaxis1 said: Dark Magic isn't actually evil, but rather goes to places that the human mind cannot fully handle. In Elibe series, Canas explains that its not dark, but elder magic. His brothers went so deep into dark magic that they became comatose, and Brimmamod went so deep that he has neither gender nor personality any longer, but simply mirrors people. When Henry tried to teach Ricken dark magic, Henry explained that after using it, your mind goes through a moment of euphoria and then depression. Like Ghast said, dark magic is basically like cocaine. But this also means that very few people have the proper aptitude for dark magic, but even then, doing so can warp a person's personality. So not everyone can actually learn dark magic easily, and the average human are just more likely to be driven insane by it. Light and Anima Magic are just much easier to handle. Oh; I wasn't suggesting dark magic is evil; I just listed it as often treated with suspicion because of how hard it is to handle. As I said, typical magic in FE is only so strong, and people's attempts to get even stronger are what gets treated with suspicion. Dark magic isn't strictly as bad as some, like sacrificing souls, but it still counts. It's kind of like Spirit Charmers in the Tellius games; potentially benign, but the costs and risks mean that it gets treated with suspicion. Edited February 8, 2018 by vanguard333 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaxis1 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 2 hours ago, vanguard333 said: As I said, typical magic in FE is only so strong, and people's attempts to get even stronger are what gets treated with suspicion. Dark magic isn't strictly as bad as some, like quintessence and sacrificing souls, but it still counts. It's kind of like Spirit Charmers in the Tellius games; potentially benign, but the costs and risks mean that it gets treated with suspicion. Well, quintessence is already the source of all magic. Kaga mentioned primitive deities that people draw power from these deities, but said deities are likely just quintessence, the source of magic and life. However, the act of absorbing quintessence is likely something very ancient magic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanguard333 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 (edited) 37 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said: Well, quintessence is already the source of all magic. Kaga mentioned primitive deities that people draw power from these deities, but said deities are likely just quintessence, the source of magic and life. However, the act of absorbing quintessence is likely something very ancient magic. Okay; but, when I said quintessence, I was referring to Blazing Sword and how Nergal was told not to try using quintessence, and his use of it drove him mad to the point where he forgot why he wanted power in the first place. I forget the exact details since I never actually played the game, so correct me if I'm wrong. Edited February 8, 2018 by vanguard333 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaxis1 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 2 minutes ago, vanguard333 said: Okay; but, when I said quintessence, I was referring to Blazing Sword and how Nergal was told not to try using quintessence, and his use of it drove him mad to the point where he forgot why he wanted power in the first place. I forget the exact details since I never actually played the game, so correct me if I'm wrong. That's what I meant. The act of absorbing quintessence is very ancient magic. The other term for dark magic is elder magic. Nergal was performing a dark magic that was beyond his mind's ability to handle, so naturally he went insane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanguard333 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 43 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said: That's what I meant. The act of absorbing quintessence is very ancient magic. The other term for dark magic is elder magic. Nergal was performing a dark magic that was beyond his mind's ability to handle, so naturally he went insane. Ah; okay. Got it. Thanks for the clarification. ...Perhaps we should go back to saying what we don't want to see in FE Switch? I'll start: Quintessence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaxis1 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 2 minutes ago, vanguard333 said: Ah; okay. Got it. Thanks for the clarification. ...Perhaps we should go back to saying what we don't want to see in FE Switch? I'll start: Quintessence. What? No way. I like the concept of quintessence. I made an entire thread here about how quintessence is the reason why Grima cannot kill Naga. Of course, if the story is about someone like Nergal wanting to harness quintessence, then yes, no to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slumber Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 (edited) Quintessence is just FE's way of handling "souls". It's a similar-ish thing(Though unlike souls, quintessence is more of a quantifiable, semi-tangible thing, and there still seem to be souls separate from quintessence), and it's more of a way to tie everything in the universes together. It's a decent thing to remember is there in the background, occasionally coming up in the stories(Dark magic harnessing it, Nergal using it to open dragon gates or whatever). I don't think I'd want a game to go in depth and explain everything in detail about it, though. Edited February 8, 2018 by Slumber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaxis1 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 3 minutes ago, Slumber said: Quintessence is just FE's way of handling "souls". It's a similar-ish thing(Though unlike souls, quintessence is more of a quantifiable, semi-tangible thing, and there still seem to be souls separate from quintessence), and it's more of a way to tie everything in the universes together. It's a decent thing to remember is there in the background, occasionally coming up in the stories(Dark magic harnessing it, Nergal using it to open dragon gates or whatever). I don't think I'd want a game to go in depth and explain everything in detail about it, though. I wouldn't say that its the actual soul per se, though. Rather, quintessence are basically like the energy that gives the body life. Or perhaps the energy that ties the soul to its body, but the life force will eventually run out, and the soul will separate from the body. Something like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slumber Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said: I wouldn't say that its the actual soul per se, though. Rather, quintessence are basically like the energy that gives the body life. Or perhaps the energy that ties the soul to its body, but the life force will eventually run out, and the soul will separate from the body. Something like that. I think I like this explanation. It seems to tie in to how Dark magic works in Elibe, and how Nergal is able to make Morphs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interdimensional Observer Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Slumber said: It's a decent thing to remember is there in the background, occasionally coming up in the stories(Dark magic harnessing it, Nergal using it to open dragon gates or whatever). I don't think I'd want a game to go in depth and explain everything in detail about it, though. I'll agree here that namedropping, but not explaining absolutely everything about Quintessence, like with every aspect of magical-ish lore (including unrealistic things like how Pegasus fly), is for the best. If you explain Quintessence in full, then when the next game rolls around and it doesn't abide by the laws of Quintessence set by prior games 100% then one of three things must happen: You have to explain the exception as a natural exception to the laws (or to be more scientific I should say theories) in a logical way. According to StarTalk episode I watched, scientists liked using the term "Law" a lot, until the early 1900s when they realized there were a lot of exceptions to most Laws of Science, hence they converted to the use of the less powerful and absolute term "Theory" for most of their vigorously tested explanations ("Hypothesis" being what you use for an untested guess). I only say this to explain how exceptions to the Laws of anything magical in FE could be realistic in the sense of not being a donkeypull, since real science itself makes a lot of exceptions for its core principles. You say or imply the new world does not abide by the same theories, even if they might be similar. The issue here is that it negates all or some effort to establish universal principles of magic and whatnot across the series. This excuse is also harder to use in games set in the same world, but not impossible. Or you say nothing as to why things don't line up and just forget the theories ever existed. Edited February 8, 2018 by Interdimensional Observer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaxis1 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 9 hours ago, Slumber said: I think I like this explanation. It seems to tie in to how Dark magic works in Elibe, and how Nergal is able to make Morphs. That might also explain why the Valkyrie Staff has limitations on it, or some cases of Mila reviving people. Unless the person has sufficient quintessence, and some cases of it not being that person's fate to die, they can revive those people. Not to mention that when people dies, the quintessence leaves them, similar to the Lifestream in Final Fantasy VII. 9 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said: I'll agree here that namedropping, but not explaining absolutely everything about Quintessence, like with every aspect of magical-ish lore (including unrealistic things like how Pegasus fly), is for the best. If you explain Quintessence in full, then when the next game rolls around and it doesn't abide by the laws of Quintessence set by prior games 100% then one of three things must happen: You have to explain the exception as a natural exception to the laws (or to be more scientific I should say theories) in a logical way. According to StarTalk episode I watched, scientists liked using the term "Law" a lot, until the early 1900s when they realized there were a lot of exceptions to most Laws of Science, hence they converted to the use of the less powerful and absolute term "Theory" for most of their vigorously tested explanations ("Hypothesis" being what you use for an untested guess). I only say this to explain how exceptions to the Laws of anything magical in FE could be realistic in the sense of not being a donkeypull, since real science itself makes a lot of exceptions for its core principles. You say or imply the new world does not abide by the same theories, even if they might be similar. The issue here is that it negates all or some effort to establish universal principles of magic and whatnot across the series. This excuse is also harder to use in games set in the same world, but not impossible. Or you say nothing as to why things don't line up and just forget the theories ever existed. That's a good point. And likely why they don't explain the essence of quintessence full on in the series. They explain that its powerful, losing it kills you, it's tied to magic, there's a finite amount of it in a person, and some have more than others, and dragons have an absurd amount. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanguard333 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 21 hours ago, omegaxis1 said: What? No way. I like the concept of quintessence. I made an entire thread here about how quintessence is the reason why Grima cannot kill Naga. Of course, if the story is about someone like Nergal wanting to harness quintessence, then yes, no to that. Woah; I just said quintessence as a joke. I meant it as one of those, "Can we please move on to a new topic?" "Yes, in other news: [something related to the first topic]" jokes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polaroid123~ Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 On 12/21/2017 at 4:19 PM, John Denver Fan said: I don't want to see the weapon triangle, the weapon triangle ruins the fun for hardcore games like me, it may of been the staple of the series. The weapon triangle was in every game though and it's a staple of the series so there's NO way that IS is taking that out. Also, how does it ruin the fun? I see it as a challenge to try and use the weaker weapon to win and as a crutch that helps beat stronger enemies. So it's like a win win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BZL8 Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 22 hours ago, polaroid123~ said: The weapon triangle was in every game though and it's a staple of the series so there's NO way that IS is taking that out. Also, how does it ruin the fun? I see it as a challenge to try and use the weaker weapon to win and as a crutch that helps beat stronger enemies. So it's like a win win. The weapon triangle wasn't introduced until FE4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
치퍼 존스 팬 Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 I don't want S rank supports, I think that Fates went too far with it by allowing Corrin to marry second generation units. I also don't want to see children, I also don't want to see avatars, yes they can be helpful, but Awakening made it bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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