No Elimination Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 15 hours ago, Cala Maria said: @Wally do you think a Captain/Grim team taking advantage of Baroness' play is likelier than Baroness being scum with either of them? No I think Baroness is scum buddies with Captain and that is the most likely option. This is not because "I can't see Grim/Cala being buddies with Baroness" but because I think they are town. Yes Grim's behaviour these past two day phases has been shocking but I can see it coming from demotivated town. It's horrendous play yes, but going not-me-over-me is the bare minimum required of anyone really. Regardless at this point it's basically a 1v1 between Cala and Baroness. Making a lot of town reads isn't bad unless they flip later on for little to no reason. I feel like a lot of the points against Kahl in the wall post are because he is BAD (note: I don't think making a lot of townreads is bad) but not really because he's scummy. Another example: being comfortable lynching scummy people and being lazy about the lynch priority because of spare lynches is what I did this game and I'm not scum. It is TERRIBLE though. 17 hours ago, Captain Brineybeard said: Yes but the difference is that I said I was leaning town on Rumor and my townread became stronger as D2 progressed. Grim started the day with Rumor as null. I feel like it's more waffly to just end up at null rather than still take a stance on someone, and me defending a townread is more consistent with my stated reads than Grim defending a nullread. I think Grim's activity is null frankly. The demotivation started partway through D3, right after a scum lynch. You say later (too lazy to quote it) that the demotivation started D2 but I don't think this is true. Sure, scum in *ylo would want to try hard to get that last lynch, but town in *ylo would want to try hard because they lose if they don't? Also, town at the end of Antihero didn't become drastically less motivated despite continued mislynches (and if Grim is who I think he is, he was one of the players alive at endgame there). I think it's just related to him losing interest in the game and is separate from his alignment. I feel like the difference between a weak town read and a neutral read is really minor and basically just player dependant. I also feel like town are just less likely to become more motivated at *ylo than scum. Personal experience difference I guess. Quote nothing. it still holds and I admitted as such in analyzing the Cala-Rumor interactions. i guess for me it's a question of who I think makes less sense as buddies- Grim/Baroness or Rumor/Cala. I feel like Grim/Baroness make less sense than Rumor/Cala, which is why I think Grim/Cala is a more likely scumteam than Grim/Baroness. If you're looking for a different argument from me for why Baroness is town, I don't have one. that being said I don't really get the meta case. in p5 he was reactionary against basically everyone and then it died down once they stopped pushing him. Here it's more selective and not quite as tied to people pushing him? like his arguments about you not doing much on D2 are bad but he started criticizing you before your invigorated push against him today. this is frustrating for me because I still don't really know why since D2, you've identified me as Rumor's buddy defending her over the other people defending her. even if you think Grim defending her is the same as me defending her, why me over Grim then? iirc on d2 you were saying stuff about me inventing answers on her behalf but I don't understand where I did that, or at least, where I did that to a greater extent than others. Fair enough on Baroness being town. regarding Meta, I kinda feel like that's his behaviour this game though. His posts D3 really remind me of that and he only comes back to write a huge wallpost generally attacking anyone who pressured him and anyone that he has a scumread on. He hasn't really engaged much in conversation outside of small bursts usually revolving around one thing and blowing up one interpreted misrep while ignoring the rest of the case, all while discrediting the player with cheap, agreeable buzzwords and flame. He gets angry but I don't remember him being this vitriolic in terms of flaming in antihero. I should prob reread that game but I really don't have the time and that's unfortunately why I'm not going to be able to shitpost about how often he does it. You didn't defend her in the same way you just had the same reasoning. Grim wasn't the one making up stuff like "she said she changed her mind!" to defend her, Grim made it clear the problems he had with Rumor's posts in his posts and always asked for more, Grim didn't harp on about one small bit of the case ("but she did have cases!") and dismiss the rest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Elimination Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 To be clear though, there ARE some good points against Grim here and in thread but I just have a feeling he is town. Here is something I spotted that kind of bothers me: Quote Wally is obvtown imo, the only scenario where I see him being scum would be no godfather and town having an unclaimed PR and he bussed Rumor for the cred. I don't think this is a likely scenario since I also read his D2 as tonally town but I'm throwing it out there 'cause I don't want to die and see people throw lategame This statement is really bad imo. The last bit really reads as being self-conscious for festering paranoia in people. Also @Captain: Way back when you said you knew who Baroness was and that you knew their meta and stuff, care to explain? Would also like @Werner Werman to explain the "meta" behind the Kahl kill. In any case we are not really lynching Grim tonight because it's a 1v1 between Baroness and Cala. Or well FYPoV I could also be scum on the Baroness wagon but that still means we wouldn't lynch Grim. Sucks because Cala is prob the least I've read on about the three candidates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C. C. Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 FUCK I lost a big post this is annoying. before I make it again, when did this become a 1v1 between baroness/cala??? literally the whole phase has been arguing for baroness or grim. I don't really want to lynch cala before grim because in the case that baroness is scum she's less likely to be his buddy even than Grim. and you're talking about you potentially being scum??? i don't think anybody actually thinks you're scum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Elimination Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 It's a 1v1 because scum would've quickhammered by now. Oof I think not knowing that makes you clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Elimination Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 *I should say, scum would've quick hammered if neither were scum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Elimination Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 ##Unvote Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Estelle Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 41 minutes ago, Wally Warbles said: Would also like @Werner Werman to explain the "meta" behind the Kahl kill. On 2/18/2018 at 8:24 PM, Werner Werman said: Kahl's been both active and timely (look at when he posts in relation to the phase change). He also made some interesting mentions regarding roles during the last bit of D3. Grim has sat on meta for a good chunk of his existence, and meta + Kahl comments should've made him the N3 kill instead of Cagney. I mentioned that I thought that at least one mafia member was really inactive over D3, and both Grim and Maria fit that bill. Grim mentioned backing off on Beppi due to something similar. Kahl had been dropping hints regarding a possible role. Just now, Wally Warbles said: *I should say, scum would've quick hammered if neither were scum. So the scum team isn't two of Grim/Captain/me. Except I'm not sure if Grim's even saw that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C. C. Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 39 minutes ago, Wally Warbles said: I feel like the difference between a weak town read and a neutral read is really minor and basically just player dependant. I also feel like town are just less likely to become more motivated at *ylo than scum. Personal experience difference I guess. >_> they're two different things for a reason. also I literally gave you an example just now of town being motivated at *ylo despite 4 straight mislynches and you're just like "ok cool story my experience is different"? and look, you didn't do anything the past day and a half and suddenly you're motivated again, bc you realized you had to get up off your ass or town might lose a game that seemed easy a few phases ago. my point isn't that scum aren't also motivated at *ylo, or that town can't get demotivated. my post is that people get demotivated because we spend way too much time, effort, and energy on a dumb game and sometimes we just run out. that's regardless of being town or scum. 44 minutes ago, Wally Warbles said: You didn't defend her in the same way you just had the same reasoning. Grim wasn't the one making up stuff like "she said she changed her mind!" to defend her, Grim made it clear the problems he had with Rumor's posts in his posts and always asked for more, Grim didn't harp on about one small bit of the case ("but she did have cases!") and dismiss the rest. it's extremely frustrating that we're still on this. are you really talking about me harping on little things while harping on me saying "she said she changed her mind" to her literally changing her mind in thread even though she didn't say "i changed my mind"? i didn't dismiss the rest of your case, I responded to your case in WAY more detail than grim (partially just because I posted a lot more). these are grim's D2 posts talking about rumor, spoilered for length: Meta talk: This is either a MU player or someone who is familiar enough and thinks they’re funny for RPing as one (terms like good look and thin give this away). That said, my gut instinct was that this slot was scum, who thought I would be an easy push for a mislynch, but their play after is just so bizarre. If they were scum they would have followed up and pushed my slot more, instead they don’t follow up on it at all when they reenter the thread. I just don’t see the scum intent in this. Like it’s just mindbogglingly weird, and I’m thinking maybe they just have a really weird playstyle. I don't think looking primarily for strong townreads is inherently unhelpful/scummy, if you PoE enough people you find scum that way. That's how town won Persona 5 mafia, for example. My main issue with the Rumor slot is I feel their townreads aren't really explained super well (one liner "this is a good look" or w/e is easy to fake) and uncertainty that I'm giving them too much leniency because it's such a weird playstyle Rumor, you said you're better at establishing townreads than scumreads. Okay, great. Who are your strongest townreads? Who are you confident in saying "This person is definitely town, don't lynch them ever"? Who is in your pool of not-townreads that you are willing to lynch? like, I think Rumor's content has been entirely unhelpful to the rest of the town but I agree with Briney that it doesn't make sense for scum (except for the part Wally quoted, echoing that skepticism). I'm pretty torn which is why I'm asking them for more of an explanation. It's easy to bullshit "yeah this looks like town infighting" or "this is a good post" but my gut is telling me I'm wrong about that making him scum notice that all his posts both "stating his problems with Rumor" and defending her are all just generic statements about her play as a whole. none of them respond directly to your case in any way. even if you think that my reasons for finding Rumor town were shitty (obviously I don't), you can't deny that I directly engaged you and was responding to your reasons for finding her scummy. grim never actually responded to your case at any point, just said that he thought you were town but that your reads were wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C. C. Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 my takeaway from grim's rumor posts got eaten by the spoiler: notice that all his posts both "stating his problems with Rumor" and defending her are all just generic statements about her play as a whole. none of them respond directly to your case in any way. even if you think that my reasons for finding Rumor town were shitty (obviously I don't), you can't deny that I directly engaged you and was responding to your reasons for finding her scummy. grim never actually responded to your case at any point, just said that he thought you were town but that your reads were wrong. oh yeah I didn't realize that with the hammers. that's a dumb reason to townread me though bc Grim's probably not even here, as Werner pointed out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Estelle Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Baroness was also at L-1 a day or two ago, and wasn't hammered. What do you guys make of that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Elimination Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Quote >_> they're two different things for a reason. also I literally gave you an example just now of town being motivated at *ylo despite 4 straight mislynches and you're just like "ok cool story my experience is different"? and look, you didn't do anything the past day and a half and suddenly you're motivated again, bc you realized you had to get up off your ass or town might lose a game that seemed easy a few phases ago. I'm not saying town don't get off their asses at *ylo I'm saying mafia almost always do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Elimination Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 3 hours is also enough time for Grim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Elimination Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 ALSO you are town because you didn't realise you could quickhammer which is definitely something scum is aware of. I honestly believe this is a stronger read than every other townread in this game, including reasons for finding me town. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C. C. Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 @werner- that doesn't really mean anything? scum don't normally quickhammer townies before *ylo so it doesn't point to either alignment. Grim hasn't posted in over 48 hours; I don't think 3 hours matters there either. p sure grim is just done caring about this game. and he especially doesn't have a lot of incentive to post if he's getting townread for doing nothing. 1 minute ago, Wally Warbles said: ALSO you are town because you didn't realise you could quickhammer which is definitely something scum is aware of. I honestly believe this is a stronger read than every other townread in this game, including reasons for finding me town. yes but... I could have just not understood that your 1v1 reasons referred to quickhammers??? i mean I'm not going to argue against you townreading me too much but saying this is townier than a cop guilty is obviously not right Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Elimination Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Nah m8 very fakeable guilty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Elimination Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 W/e I don't feel bad lynching Grim. Either we lynch scum and I win, or we lynch town and I was right all along. ##vote: Grim matchsticks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C. C. Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Fair enough on Baroness being town. regarding Meta, I kinda feel like that's his behaviour this game though. His posts D3 really remind me of that and he only comes back to write a huge wallpost generally attacking anyone who pressured him and anyone that he has a scumread on. He hasn't really engaged much in conversation outside of small bursts usually revolving around one thing and blowing up one interpreted misrep while ignoring the rest of the case, all while discrediting the player with cheap, agreeable buzzwords and flame. He gets angry but I don't remember him being this vitriolic in terms of flaming in antihero. I should prob reread that game but I really don't have the time and that's unfortunately why I'm not going to be able to shitpost about how often he does it. baroness is just a naturally reactionary player? in antihero Eclipse gave him a warning threat for telling someone attacking him to suck his dick. i do agree that as scum he uses it more to shut people down, but I don't think this was actually the case until his thing with you today. for example on d2 he didn't really get serious pressure until his wallpost, and then Grim and others suspected him for it. and yeah he wrote reactionary wallposts against them on D3 but he was already suspecting them from before so I don't think that quite counts as him trying to shut down attacks against him. he didn't get anywhere as reactionary against me on D3 even though I was also voting him for a large part of the day. him getting pissy at you and attacking you is definitely pretty bad though. i just kind of feel like he wouldn't be as antagonistic against you given that you're conftown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C. C. Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 kinda just feels like I didn't earn that voteswitch. werner do you still want to lynch grim or do you want to lynch someone else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Estelle Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 1 minute ago, Captain Brineybeard said: kinda just feels like I didn't earn that voteswitch. werner do you still want to lynch grim or do you want to lynch someone else? Still fine with lynching Grim. If he flips town, he's getting an earful from me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Elimination Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Reread Cagney and they were scumreading both Cala and Grim so that fits too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Elimination Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 *I mean on D1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Estelle Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Just now, Wally Warbles said: Reread Cagney and they were scumreading both Cala and Grim so that fits too. The person who tends to call the scumteam on D1, no less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All Might Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 (edited) Votals 5.3Grim Matchstick (2): Baroness Von Bon Bon, Wally WarblesBaroness Von Bon Bon (1): Cala Maria Not Voting (3): Captain Brineybeard, Grim Matchstick, Werner WermanYou have ~4.5 hours left in the day. With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. It is possible for town to lose following a mislynch today! Edited February 21, 2018 by Mr. Wheezy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Elimination Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 I'm off so good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Estelle Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 I'll try to pop back on one more time before phase end. Something just came up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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