C. C. Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 @Werner Werman I feel like you're not really reading my points about the interactions? Yes, Grim's vote on Baroness would have been a long bus but the point is that it would have looked very weird for him to NOT continue the bus on D3 when Baroness became the main suspect at the start of the day. It would have represented a deviation from his past behaviour. In comparison, Rumor voting Cala IS a deviation from her past behaviour because she hadn't suspected her before that. Not to mention, if Rumor wanted to bus, why not vote Grim, who was her main target on D1? Grim/Baroness and Cala/Rumor are both kind of wonky scum-pairs but the latter involves a lot more sub-optimal play. it feels like you've latched onto the grim/baroness interactions as townie enough to outweigh everything else and I don't think that's really true. have you looked at his rumor interactions or his tunneling? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Estelle Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 ##Unvote Not forced to stay in the hospital. Will deal with this when I’m at a proper computer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ochako Uraraka Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 I don't have time to post a lot but I really don't know what to say about lacking nuance; I don't know what kind of an argument you expect from me that would convince you that I'm town. Like I feel like I've exhausted all points, FMPOV its frustrating that I've had to repeat these points over and over since D3 to the point where posting isn't even fun for me but honestly one point in favor of her being town isn't enough for me when the rest of her play is scummy in my eyes. And Captain you keep saying that some of the things she does as scum wouldn't make sense but have you explained why that thought process comes as town? Like how am I supposed to begin with this? And I've been active for every phase but D4, I explicitly stated that D7 I wouldn't be very active, there's nothing I could've done about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C. C. Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 I didn't say it was scummy that you weren't around. just that it's dumb to attack baroness for not being around on d2 when you weren't around on d4. my point is that you both have seemed like 99% sure that the other is scum since like day 3. and that seems fake to me because people aren't normally that sure and not every single post people make is scummy. a large part of your baroness case is him finding grim a lot scummier on d3. you just keep hammering away on how scummy this is and it's such a crappy point. townies change priorities among scumreads all the time. on d5 I was like 70% sure the scumteam was you/Grim and then even after Grim flipped scum I lost my confidence in that and moved you and Baroness to the same level of suspicion. it's not like he 180d on Grim; he just put Grim up in his reads by one spot. baroness pushing grim up in his reads could be indicative of him being scum if they decided to hardbus, which is plausible... but you didn't think they were hardbussing until after Grim's flip, yet you were still pushing this point before the flip. i can't understand your logic as to why you find it scummy. and I would say that this is probably the main part of your case, along with Rumor interactions (which I agree with). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Estelle Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 22 minutes ago, Captain Brineybeard said: @Werner Werman I feel like you're not really reading my points about the interactions? Yes, Grim's vote on Baroness would have been a long bus but the point is that it would have looked very weird for him to NOT continue the bus on D3 when Baroness became the main suspect at the start of the day. It would have represented a deviation from his past behaviour. In comparison, Rumor voting Cala IS a deviation from her past behaviour because she hadn't suspected her before that. Not to mention, if Rumor wanted to bus, why not vote Grim, who was her main target on D1? Grim/Baroness and Cala/Rumor are both kind of wonky scum-pairs but the latter involves a lot more sub-optimal play. it feels like you've latched onto the grim/baroness interactions as townie enough to outweigh everything else and I don't think that's really true. have you looked at his rumor interactions or his tunneling? Because Grim didn't have a lot of attention on him at the time, so latching on to him would've dug herself deeper. It would've been the ideal play, but Honeybottoms wasn't playing a perfect scum game. Hopping to the other wagon is opportunistic, and says more about Honeybottoms than Maria. Meanwhile, Grim could've easily moved from Baroness to Sally, which he does on D2 due to Baroness not being a wagon (source). Since Sally was around for a couple of phases, he could've sat on her, citing damn near everything she did as the reason why, with Baroness being in second. The fact that he never moved from his initial Baroness read is what makes it odd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cú Chulainn Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 3 minutes ago, Captain Brineybeard said: my point is that you both have seemed like 99% sure that the other is scum since like day 3. and that seems fake to me because people aren't normally that sure and not every single post people make is scummy. Idk how to respond to this because I have done this FREQUENTLY in the past. And I can't really argue against this anymore than saying this. I've literally tunneled people into the ground both as town and scum. Whether you find it to be bad play or not doesn't change the fact that I've done that and so have many other people, like I stated previously, in this very game. I named them off previously. Grim, Wally, Sally, Cala are all examples of this so I don't quite get why this is such a strong reasoning for you and because of that I can't really argue against it anymore than I already have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C. C. Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 idk it's like I feel baroness is making better arguments but cala's frustration seems a bit more sincere and the interactions are in her favour. @werner- voting someone for consolidation is very different from actually finding them scummiest? by the time Grim posted on D3, there were already 3 votes on Baroness compared to Sally's 1. For him to be like "Baroness is the scummiest but I'll lynch Sally since you guys are all sleeping on Baroness" and then not vote Baroness once she did become a wagon on D3 would have been super suspicious if Baroness ended up being that day's lynch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C. C. Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 Just now, Baroness Von Bon Bon said: Idk how to respond to this because I have done this FREQUENTLY in the past. And I can't really argue against this anymore than saying this. I've literally tunneled people into the ground both as town and scum. Whether you find it to be bad play or not doesn't change the fact that I've done that and so have many other people, like I stated previously, in this very game. I named them off previously. Grim, Wally, Sally, Cala are all examples of this so I don't quite get why this is such a strong reasoning for you and because of that I can't really argue against it anymore than I already have. i'm not using it as a reason to scumread either of you. i can't, since you're both doing it. it's just annoying cuz tunneling sucks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cú Chulainn Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 Like i'm truly lost at how to respond to any of the arguments that I haven't already responded to. I've responded to what I can with everything I have the ability to respond to. The only things I can't argue against are: Gut WIFOM And saying that this stuff that multiple people have done, both in this game and out, is scummy when it comes from both town play and scum play and I believe it generally comes from town play moreso. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cú Chulainn Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 1 minute ago, Captain Brineybeard said: i'm not using it as a reason to scumread either of you. i can't, since you're both doing it. it's just annoying cuz tunneling sucks The way it was worded is that you seem to be using it as a reason to say we are both scummy. My apologies. I don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C. C. Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 everything is based on gut anyways. i'm also not using that much wifom idk what you're talking about. :weary: I wish I'd lynched grim on d4 and then kahl would have been around to talk to about this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ochako Uraraka Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 4 minutes ago, Captain Brineybeard said: I didn't say it was scummy that you weren't around. just that it's dumb to attack baroness for not being around on d2 when you weren't around on d4. my point is that you both have seemed like 99% sure that the other is scum since like day 3. and that seems fake to me because people aren't normally that sure and not every single post people make is scummy. a large part of your baroness case is him finding grim a lot scummier on d3. you just keep hammering away on how scummy this is and it's such a crappy point. townies change priorities among scumreads all the time. on d5 I was like 70% sure the scumteam was you/Grim and then even after Grim flipped scum I lost my confidence in that and moved you and Baroness to the same level of suspicion. it's not like he 180d on Grim; he just put Grim up in his reads by one spot. baroness pushing grim up in his reads could be indicative of him being scum if they decided to hardbus, which is plausible... but you didn't think they were hardbussing until after Grim's flip, yet you were still pushing this point before the flip. i can't understand your logic as to why you find it scummy. and I would say that this is probably the main part of your case, along with Rumor interactions (which I agree with). Talking about switching Grim and me up is very important because it is tied closely to her D2 vote on me, and you agree that her case was bad, so why is town more likely to switch up reads like that? Given the context it makes more sense for me in any case. In your case I would like to think that MYLO + me bringing up arguments changed your mind, what is it that Grim did between D2 and D3 that was strong enough for her to change her mind? What are the other things I should be looking at? Do you agree with me that her logic was unnatural and it feels more deliberate? Because the way she's pushing things looks more like she knows alignments of other players. Anyway, I don't know what else am I supposed to look into Baroness? Most of her content is wrt Grim/me, there's a bit of Wally that you disagree with, and she barely talks about anyone else. Was I supposed to make a detailed analysis of her D1? Because everything past D1 is more telling to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Estelle Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 2 minutes ago, Captain Brineybeard said: idk it's like I feel baroness is making better arguments but cala's frustration seems a bit more sincere and the interactions are in her favour. @werner- voting someone for consolidation is very different from actually finding them scummiest? by the time Grim posted on D3, there were already 3 votes on Baroness compared to Sally's 1. For him to be like "Baroness is the scummiest but I'll lynch Sally since you guys are all sleeping on Baroness" and then not vote Baroness once she did become a wagon on D3 would have been super suspicious if Baroness ended up being that day's lynch. There's a certain irony in this, because part of Grim's case against Baroness is consolidation in D1. The fact that he never, ever changes his read is what makes it weird. Kind of like how the two ladies are, except one of them is town. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ochako Uraraka Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 I guess if Werner is scum he played a good game but FMPOV he's playing to his town meta and also I didn't feel like his Grim interactions were scum/scum because I don't think Grim hops on to his buddy's wagon on D1 only to back off on D2 and say "I shouldn't have pushed this player because I guessed his identity later on" but also I don't think scum!Werner tries to drag this game further? Captain i'm sure you're town. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ochako Uraraka Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 anyway I'm off Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Estelle Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 1 minute ago, Cala Maria said: I guess if Werner is scum he played a good game but FMPOV he's playing to his town meta and also I didn't feel like his Grim interactions were scum/scum because I don't think Grim hops on to his buddy's wagon on D1 only to back off on D2 and say "I shouldn't have pushed this player because I guessed his identity later on" but also I don't think scum!Werner tries to drag this game further? Captain i'm sure you're town. IMO the scummiest thing I've done is threaten a universal loss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cú Chulainn Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 Just now, Cala Maria said: I guess if Werner is scum he played a good game but FMPOV he's playing to his town meta and also I didn't feel like his Grim interactions were scum/scum because I don't think Grim hops on to his buddy's wagon on D1 only to back off on D2 and say "I shouldn't have pushed this player because I guessed his identity later on" but also I don't think scum!Werner tries to drag this game further? Captain i'm sure you're town. Werner can't be scum they didn't quick hammer when they had the opportunity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C. C. Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 werner and I are clear because werner could have hammered baroness earlier and I could hammer you right now 5 minutes ago, Cala Maria said: Talking about switching Grim and me up is very important because it is tied closely to her D2 vote on me, and you agree that her case was bad, so why is town more likely to switch up reads like that? Given the context it makes more sense for me in any case. In your case I would like to think that MYLO + me bringing up arguments changed your mind, what is it that Grim did between D2 and D3 that was strong enough for her to change her mind? What are the other things I should be looking at? Do you agree with me that her logic was unnatural and it feels more deliberate? Because the way she's pushing things looks more like she knows alignments of other players. Anyway, I don't know what else am I supposed to look into Baroness? Most of her content is wrt Grim/me, there's a bit of Wally that you disagree with, and she barely talks about anyone else. Was I supposed to make a detailed analysis of her D1? Because everything past D1 is more telling to me. i'm not saying it's scummy or townie for baroness to change votes. it's basically null because people move reads up and down all the time. you're the one who keeps saying it's super scummy and I don't see your point at all. you make it seem like the burden of proof is on baroness for changing the reads but it's on you to show why it would have been suspicious, had Grim not also been scum. my problem here is that while Baroness had reasons to vote Grim as scum given that they were buddies, I don't think it would have made very much sense if they weren't, but you've been arguing that it would. Why would Baroness force unnatural and deliberate logic to vote one townie over another? it feels like you pushing baroness for this action and then just changing from one underlying reason for it being scum to another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C. C. Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 Werner what % confident are you that Baroness is scum vs that Cala is scum? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Estelle Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 Could've. I unvoted since I'm back until phase end (thank you head injury?). Thinking straight is a bitch, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Estelle Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 It's something like 60/40, with Maria as scum. Not the most confident read, but it's the gameplay actions that just don't add up for Baroness. She's been responding to everything, perhaps a bit too much. And then there's that N3 kill, which makes a lot more sense if Maria's scum than Baroness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C. C. Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 the N3 kill was Cagney and she was essentially cleared. i dont think it's very indicative. you're only 60/40 but you've been arguing against Cala and defending Baroness all day??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Estelle Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 I'm allowed to change what little is left of my mind. Was forced to read backwards, and Maria's D3-D4 was a lot stronger than Baroness'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C. C. Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 i asked you bc it seemed like you were 90/10 and in that case I would have just voted Cala since I'm 50/50 and I didn't think I could convince you if you were 90/10 but if you're only 60/40 then I still could Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C. C. Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 Just now, Werner Werman said: I'm allowed to change what little is left of my mind. Was forced to read backwards, and Maria's D3-D4 was a lot stronger than Baroness'. Cala had like 3 posts on D4 which interactions do you think are townier, Grim/Baroness or Cala/Rumor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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