Grima and degeneration

[NPR]

On ‎1‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 6:34 PM, Interdimensional Observer said:

The all-knowing developer opens this with "Originally primitive deities existed at Archanea", which given the developer knows all and isn't trying to hide things here, would mean these truly were deities. But that is just me.

Well, in Radiant Dawn Ashunera is a non-dragon that is a literal deity to the people. At one point it is explained how she just sort of manifested from nothing, but that doesn't necessarily mean she is a god as much as it means that she was a primal being with an obscene amount of power. It can probably be assumed that any deities on Archanea were similar to Radiant Dawn's Goddess. It seems that by the time the main story begins that only their magical energies remain on the continent. I don't know what that means from a lore perspective, but divine dragons like Naga are able to manipulate those energies far more efficiently than humans and in greater quantities, which probably grants them powers on a similar scale to the gods at the price of degeneration.

Man, I really want to delve into that lore more. It seems like the history of Archanean magic might be a history of god-like elemental powers being dispersed, distilled, and inherited down to lesser entities. It could even explain why Naga believes humans are destined to inherit the continent, but all of that is just a crack job theory.

[Emperor Hardin]

Just popping in, but Degenerated Dragons are distinctly non sentient.

6 hours ago, darkblade2814 said:

According to Japan-only Suplementary material Walhart is a decsndent of Alm and Celica (English is not my first lenguage)

You sure that is officially stated? The only thing I can find that says that is the pixiv encyclopedia which isn't official and doesn't list a source.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Emperor Hardin

[darkblade2814]

4 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Just popping in, but Degenerated Dragons are distinctly non sentient.

You sure that is officially stated? The only thing I can find that says that is the pixiv encyclopedia which isn't official and doesn't list a source.

yes, Japan had a website dedicated to give suplementary material and backsotry for Awakening, but is offline nowdays, I tried

[Emperor Hardin]

10 hours ago, darkblade2814 said:

yes, Japan had a website dedicated to give suplementary material and backsotry for Awakening, but is offline nowdays, I tried

Are you sure?

ShadowOfChaos didn't mention it in his translations of the Japanese short stories.

[Interdimensional Observer]

Even if Walhart was related to Alm and Celica, the apple fell far far far from the tree.

Furthermore, Walhart would not be that unique. 1000 years pass after SoV to the First Exalt, and 1000 more from First Exalt to modern day Awakening.

Assume Alm and Celica have 2 children. Assume each child has 2 children of their own. Assume it takes 25 years for them to have their two kids, call this a "Generation", usually defined as 20-30 years.

This appears to me to be exponentiation. 2000 / 25 = 80 generations

2^80 = a really really big number that Google Calculator can't show without special notation to consolidate it.

Admittedly, Alm and Celica would have far fewer descendants than this if some descendants had no one kid or no kid due to choice or death before reproductive age. Descendants could also inbreed, which would be no health issue if it was five or six times removed, and this would significantly reduce the number of descendants since descendants would "share" the two kids they produce. But I think I'm still making a point here.

[Slumber]

21 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Even if Walhart was related to Alm and Celica, the apple fell far far far from the tree.

Arguable.

Walhart is far closer to Rudolf, in both appearance and ideology, than Alm is.

[omegaxis1]

2 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Arguable.

Walhart is far closer to Rudolf, in both appearance and ideology, than Alm is.

Not necessarily. Rudolph's actions were purely from a desire for the world to grow up, and for someone to strike him down, preferably Alm. However, he was wanting for someone to kill him, whereas Walhart fully intended to lead himself.

[Slumber]

3 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Not necessarily. Rudolph's actions were purely from a desire for the world to grow up, and for someone to strike him down, preferably Alm. However, he was wanting for someone to kill him, whereas Walhart fully intended to lead himself.

The ideology is ultimately the same, though.

For Walhart it was "The strong deserve to lead and live on, and if it has to be me, so be it."

For Rudolf it was "The strong deserve to lead and live on, and if it has to be my son, so be it."

Both of them were effectively "testing" the world in hopes of getting people strong enough to stand up to a major threat. Walhart was more one-dimensional and cold-hearted about it, but they were trying to accomplish the same thing. Rigel under Rudolf acted very much like Valm under Walhart.

Edited February 3, 2018 by Slumber

[omegaxis1]

8 minutes ago, Slumber said:

The ideology is ultimately the same, though.

For Walhart it was "The strong deserve to lead and live on, and if it has to be me, so be it."

For Rudolf it was "The strong deserve to lead and live on, and if it has to be my son, so be it."

Both of them were effectively "testing" the world in hopes of getting people strong enough to stand up to a major threat. Walhart was more one-dimensional about it, but they were trying to accomplish the same thing. Rigel under Rudolf acted very much like Valm under Walhart.

Except it wasn't. Walhart had that ideology, but Rudolf only did what he did because he had to. Duma was going insane, and the continent was being ruined. With Echoes, it also went with how Alm was the child of prophecy, so all the more reason. He wasn't going by how the strong must lead and live, but rather had to put the continent under a state where they needed to change. Walhart on the other hand felt he should change it himself and wasn't by any means trying to test anything.

Edited February 3, 2018 by omegaxis1

[Slumber]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

Except it wasn't. Walhart had that ideology, but Rudolf only did what he did because he had to. Duma was going insane, and the continent was being ruined. With Echoes, it also went with how Alm was the child of prophecy, so all the more reason. He wasn't going by how the strong must lead and live, but rather had to put the continent under a state where they needed to change. Walhart on the other hand felt he should change it himself and wasn't by any means trying to test anything.

I suppose this is true enough, but even if it wasn't how he truly felt, it's still what he did.

It shouldn't take much stretching to see the similarities between Rudolf and Walhart, right? And that Walhart is what Rudolf would be if Rudolf truly was what everyone thought he was?

[omegaxis1]

2 minutes ago, Slumber said:

I suppose this is true enough, but even if it wasn't how he truly felt, it's still what he did.

It shouldn't take much stretching to see the similarities between Rudolf and Walhart, right? And that Walhart is what Rudolf would be if Rudolf truly was what everyone thought he was?

It's possible that history recorded Rudolf as that, similar to how Arvis was recorded to be a sinister villain. Even though Seliph held no ill will towards Arvis in the end, and Alm learned what Rudolf wanted, the fact remains that both of these people have caused the suffering of others, so they will go down in history as villains. 

However, Walhart might have gotten some things in where he saw that Alm's actions and Rudolf's actions were both something that helped the world, so he might have taken Rudolf's actions of drawing first blood, and Alm's actions of uniting the continent.

[Emperor Hardin]

Alm and Celica united the religions, Walhart disdained all religions as a whole(according to Pheros) and specifically hated the Grimleal.

[darkblade2814]

13 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Are you sure?

ShadowOfChaos didn't mention it in his translations of the Japanese short stories.

BigKlingy did metioned this website, but it was alredy offline when he did his playtrought

[omegaxis1]

12 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Alm and Celica united the religions, Walhart disdained all religions as a whole(according to Pheros) and specifically hated the Grimleal.

Based on Awakening, Mila and Duma's religion seemed to have had a falling out and Duma is now condemned as a wicked spirit. 

[Hawkwing]

55 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Based on Awakening, Mila and Duma's religion seemed to have had a falling out and Duma is now condemned as a wicked spirit. 

In a bit of irony, to quote Tv Tropes:

Spoiler

• During the final battle most of the Zofian-born party members (Excluding Celica and Nomah), Tatiana, and the Whitewings dismiss and insult Duma and his beliefs, showing themselves to be lacking in Mila's love. The Rigel-descended Conrad and Silque, on the other hand, show the compassion that they lacked.
• Alm's speech in the final battle has him declare that Duma had tainted Mila with his power, never learning that Mila was actually corrupted by her own power.
• Despite the insistence on not depending on gods, it was a prophecy from the gods that told of how Alm and Celica would save Valentia. It was likewise the interference of Mila that allowed Celica to be restored from being a witch and for her friends to join up and help mercy kill Duma.

Considering the large time gap between the games, it wouldn't surprise me if the united religion started out fairly balancing both beliefs, but started drifting towards Mila as Alm and Celica's story became more and more fantasized, and Duma and Rigel became more and more villainous in it (which would also be ironic as Desaix and Slayde are more despicable than the Rigelian enemies, as the army is just doing its job and the Faithful, though evil, are acting out of genuine faith). That, and the people probably liked the message of "live with compassion and love" more than "hardship builds character."

(I still don't understand why IS never expanded upon the DLC, as it would have been interesting to see what Duma and the Faithful were like before the former went mad and the latter became nothing more than a cult.)

[omegaxis1]

2 hours ago, Hawkwing said:

In a bit of irony, to quote Tv Tropes:

  Hide contents

• During the final battle most of the Zofian-born party members (Excluding Celica and Nomah), Tatiana, and the Whitewings dismiss and insult Duma and his beliefs, showing themselves to be lacking in Mila's love. The Rigel-descended Conrad and Silque, on the other hand, show the compassion that they lacked.
• Alm's speech in the final battle has him declare that Duma had tainted Mila with his power, never learning that Mila was actually corrupted by her own power.
• Despite the insistence on not depending on gods, it was a prophecy from the gods that told of how Alm and Celica would save Valentia. It was likewise the interference of Mila that allowed Celica to be restored from being a witch and for her friends to join up and help mercy kill Duma.

Considering the large time gap between the games, it wouldn't surprise me if the united religion started out fairly balancing both beliefs, but started drifting towards Mila as Alm and Celica's story became more and more fantasized, and Duma and Rigel became more and more villainous in it (which would also be ironic as Desaix and Slayde are more despicable than the Rigelian enemies, as the army is just doing its job and the Faithful, though evil, are acting out of genuine faith). That, and the people probably liked the message of "live with compassion and love" more than "hardship builds character."

(I still don't understand why IS never expanded upon the DLC, as it would have been interesting to see what Duma and the Faithful were like before the former went mad and the latter became nothing more than a cult.)

• I think the Whitewings get a pass, as they are not for either Mila or Duma's beliefs, I think. After all, Est was kidnapped, and the other two just arrived. Also, Conrad was half-Rigelian, and was raised before in Zofia, but was then safely brought to the Sage's Hamlet. And though Silque was descended from Rigel, her belief was with Mila. 
• Well, it might have something to go with how it was Mila that helped him, while Duma was their eemy that they had to defeat. Not to mention that Duma also was the reason that Alm had to be separated from his family. So it could be a personal grudge. 
• I never understood this. Who made this prophecy? Falchion was made by Naga, so would that mean that she made that prophecy, right? Also, Mila came from the dragon head, not from Falchion, which was used to stab Celica, meaning that it was Falchion's own power that healed Celica. 

It would not surprise me. After all, the winners of the war are the ones that write history down. Though Alm won the war, history saw the losers of the war, being Duma and Rudolf, to be the villains, as they were the ones that caused the suffering of the people more. Rudolf was the one that sealed Mila, and thus caused Zofia's crops to die out. 

As for why they never expand upon it, when have they EVER expanded upon the religions of Fire Emblem really? Even the Lopto Sect's cases haven't been fully understood.

[Køkø]

9 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

•  

As for why they never expand upon it, when have they EVER expanded upon the religions of Fire Emblem really? Even the Lopto Sect's cases haven't been fully understood.

The Loptyr Cult has one of the best backstories in FE. http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Loptyrian_Cult  

Ashera's religion is decently fleshed out. Disappointingly, no practices and customs are mentioned, but at least it's explained that the religion is purely a human creation. Ashera is not benevolent. 

Gaiden, is you know, Gaiden. Echoes didn't bother to expand on that.   

You already know how I feel about Awakening, and by extension, the Grimleal.  

 

Not related but I'm still waiting on Kaga's response. In the meantime, I've got some proof that Gharnef created Imhullu rather than stealing it. Gato placed seals on powerful magic like Excalibur and Aura to keep them from falling into the wrong hands. Imhullu is more powerful than both Aura and Excalibur, so naturally this would have a seal too. How would Gharnef be able to use Imhullu after stealing it?

 

 

Edited February 4, 2018 by Køkø

[Interdimensional Observer]

18 minutes ago, Køkø said:

Not related but I'm still waiting on Kaga's response. In the meantime, I've got some proof that Gharnef created Imhullu rather than stealing it. Gato placed seals on powerful magic like Excalibur and Aura to keep them from falling into the wrong hands. Imhullu is more powerful than both Aura and Excalibur, so naturally this would have a seal too. How would Gharnef be able to use Imhullu after stealing it?

 

This is outright stated in Mystery Chapter 10:

Wendell:
Elrean, listen to me... Gharnef, along with Pontifex Miloah, were Lord Gotoh's best pupils. But Lord Gotoh saw Gharnef's weakness, and so he left Khadein and the Aura tome to Pontifex Miloah. Gharnef, overcome by jealousy, stole the Darksphere from Lord Gotoh, and created the Imhullu tome. As a result... His heart was trapped within the Darksphere for all eternity. Wrath and envy led him to ruin. Do you understand now, Elrean...?
 

Given Starlight is also the product of Spheres, I wouldn't be surprised if Aura was distilled from the Lightsphere by itself, Aum the Lifesphere, or Excalibur (assuming it represents Anima as a whole) Excalibur- although we have no evidence for any of this beyond Imhullu and Starlight. I still headcanon it though. And regardless, that Naga is the origin of the Spheres is only further testament to their power, a physical fang crafted into a sword to embody her great strength, Spheres upon a Shield to embody her boundless wisdom.

 

9 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

As for why they never expand upon it, when have they EVER expanded upon the religions of Fire Emblem really? Even the Lopto Sect's cases haven't been fully understood.

I do wish we actually were told about religious doctrines and customs in FE, as well as more on the religious organizations themselves. IS only has to research beliefs in older forms of Christianity and other religions and selective copy and paste it with new names and substitute myths, gestures, folklore, parables, and hagiography tacked on to the stuff. Not too hard.

It annoys me we aren't told anything about Palmeni Temple in PoR, despite it having the Ashera Staff, Elena having worked there (I don't think the beloved of a Four Rider would come from lowest social standings), and it looking very rich with wealth and ornamentation. Given its relative proximity to Nevassa, I headcanon it as the center of Daein's Ashera worship, where the religious intellectuals and administrative elite gather while pilgrims visit. Kings of Daein too visit during or just after coronation to claim divine authority for their rule. Decades after the end of the Tellius Continental War of 432-478, Begnion's clergy finally recognizes the Daein clergy as co-equals and not a breakaway branch they condescendingly look down on. As a symbol of this turn to friendship and equality, the Begnion clergy entrusts Daein with the Ashera Staff- an invaluable national treasure of Begnion straight from the Apostolic vaults. After PoR, the Ashera Staff is requisitioned from Daein and returned to Begnion, thus ending up in Sephiran's care. This is assuming multiple Ashera Staffs don't exist. 

[Emperor Hardin]

17 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

This is outright stated in Mystery Chapter 10:

Wendell:
Elrean, listen to me... Gharnef, along with Pontifex Miloah, were Lord Gotoh's best pupils. But Lord Gotoh saw Gharnef's weakness, and so he left Khadein and the Aura tome to Pontifex Miloah. Gharnef, overcome by jealousy, stole the Darksphere from Lord Gotoh, and created the Imhullu tome. As a result... His heart was trapped within the Darksphere for all eternity. Wrath and envy led him to ruin. Do you understand now, Elrean...?
 

Given Starlight is also the product of Spheres, I wouldn't be surprised if Aura was distilled from the Lightsphere by itself, Aum the Lifesphere, or Excalibur (assuming it represents Anima as a whole) Excalibur- although we have no evidence for any of this beyond Imhullu and Starlight. I still headcanon it though. And regardless, that Naga is the origin of the Spheres is only further testament to their power, a physical fang crafted into a sword to embody her great strength, Spheres upon a Shield to embody her boundless wisdom.

 

I do wish we actually were told about religious doctrines and customs in FE, as well as more on the religious organizations themselves. IS only has to research beliefs in older forms of Christianity and other religions and selective copy and paste it with new names and substitute myths, gestures, folklore, parables, and hagiography tacked on to the stuff. Not too hard.

It annoys me we aren't told anything about Palmeni Temple in PoR, despite it having the Ashera Staff, Elena having worked there (I don't think the beloved of a Four Rider would come from lowest social standings), and it looking very rich with wealth and ornamentation. Given its relative proximity to Nevassa, I headcanon it as the center of Daein's Ashera worship, where the religious intellectuals and administrative elite gather while pilgrims visit. Kings of Daein too visit during or just after coronation to claim divine authority for their rule. Decades after the end of the Tellius Continental War of 432-478, Begnion's clergy finally recognizes the Daein clergy as co-equals and not a breakaway branch they condescendingly look down on. As a symbol of this turn to friendship and equality, the Begnion clergy entrusts Daein with the Ashera Staff- an invaluable national treasure of Begnion straight from the Apostolic vaults. After PoR, the Ashera Staff is requisitioned from Daein and returned to Begnion, thus ending up in Sephiran's care. This is assuming multiple Ashera Staffs don't exist. 

I always figured Gharnef stole the reagents to create the Imhullu tome. 

[Køkø]

23 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

This is outright stated in Mystery Chapter 10:

Wendell:
Elrean, listen to me... Gharnef, along with Pontifex Miloah, were Lord Gotoh's best pupils. But Lord Gotoh saw Gharnef's weakness, and so he left Khadein and the Aura tome to Pontifex Miloah. Gharnef, overcome by jealousy, stole the Darksphere from Lord Gotoh, and created the Imhullu tome. As a result... His heart was trapped within the Darksphere for all eternity. Wrath and envy led him to ruin. Do you understand now, Elrean...?

Yes, omegaxis1 and I discussed this matter privately, and we came across a contradictory statement in Book 1 of FE3 and Shadow Dragon. I couldn't find a script of FE1, so I'm currently playing through to see if it says the same as the following.

Book 1, Chapter 12 

Gato:
Prince Marth…
I am Archsage Gato.
I am currently using my magic to communicate with you.
… It is saddening to see you being mocked by Garnef…
Listen to me well.
Garnef and Miroa were both my pupils.
But Garnef stole Maph from me and disappeared.
Mmm… He indeed has the Falchion as well.
With Maph and the Falchion, the Durhua Empire has nothing to fear.
This world will eventually be theirs.
So long as Garnef has Maph, you won’t be able to defeat him.
…However… There is one method.
Find the Star and Light Orbs and bring them to me.
With them both, then the only magic tome that can penetrate Maph, Starlight Explosion can be… 

 

Shadow Dragon, Chapter 15  

Gato:

“Yes. The mage who wields it cannot be killed; cannot be so much as scratched. I was the magic’s guardian once. Knowing its forbidden power could work terrible evils, so I kept it close. But Gharnef, one of my two pupils- Miloah being the other- took the forbidden tome and vanished. Now you are paying for my carelessness. Forgive me. I wish to make amends by teaching you the only way to undo Imhullu’s power.” 

 

He favored Gato's explanation over Wendel's.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Køkø

[Interdimensional Observer]

11 hours ago, Køkø said:

He favored Gato's explanation over Wendel's.

And I'd say Wendel's is better. Since why would anyone invent Imhullu when it just seems wickedly evil? Gotoh on the other hand having the Darksphere in his possession explains what happened to it after the Binding Shield was broken (the Fane of Raman kept Geo, Star, and Light, LIfe was stolen and sold, Gotoh kept personal watch over Dark (probably due to it being dangerous)). The Darksphere was invented to seal the Earth Dragons with the rest, more than justifying the risk it poses, whereas Imhullu has no explanation as to why someone had to make it if Gharnef didn't.

And technically, you could say Gotoh is right and Wendel is too. Gharnef stealing the Darksphere meant he stole the origin of Imhullu, so basically he stole Imhullu since he stole the one thing he later used to make Imhullu. Not the best of logic and I'm pretty sure this isn't what Gotoh meant, and it leaves you wondering where the Darksphere was in FE1 (actually it was unused in FE1's data, no Lifesphere in there, but there was a Timesphere), but it still makes a fairly logical retcon answer.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Interdimensional Observer
To clarify a little of what I meant

[Køkø]

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

And I'd say Wendel's is better. Since why would anyone invent Imhullu when it just seems wickedly evil? Gotoh on the other hand having the Darksphere in his possession explains what happened to it after the Binding Shield was broken (the Fane of Raman kept Geo, Star, and Light, LIfe was stolen and sold, Gotoh kept personal watch over Dark (probably due to it being dangerous)). The Darksphere was invented to seal the Earth Dragons with the rest, more than justifying the risk it poses, whereas Imhullu has no explanation as to why someone had to make it if Gharnef didn't.

And technically, you could say Gotoh is right and Wendel is too. Gharnef stealing the Darksphere meant he stole the origin of Imhullu, so basically he stole Imhullu. Not the best of logic and I'm pretty sure this isn't what Gotoh meant, and it leaves you wondering where the Darksphere was in FE1 (actually it was unused in FE1's data, no Lifesphere in there, but there was a Timesphere), but it still makes a fairly logical retcon answer.

I agree with the first part. Just got to chapter 15 in FE1 and Gato's explanation is there as well. I said that it was either Gato or Wendel who had gone senile in the PM conversation. Maybe Kaga decided that the creation account made more sense than the theft one? Maybe a script error? Who knows. 

 

Now for the second part, that's a stretch.The Darksphere theft makes the most sense as it also explains why Gharnef can use Imhullu in the first place. I can't imagine that Gato wouldn't put a seal on a hypothetical pre-existing Imhullu tome. It's better story wise as well. I got the feeling that Gharnef was always a better mage than Miloah, which really set him off when Aura was entrusted to the former. In an effort to prove his worth, he uses the Darksphere to create a much more powerful spell. In the process, he unintentionally corrupts his soul and magnifies his most negative attributes, and becomes the Gharnef we're familiar with. At least that's how I imagine it. He was Lyon way before Lyon existed.  

This way, it smoothly transitions into his possession of the Darksphere in Book 2. I don't like the idea of him somehow stealing both. I assume the Darksphere was somewhere in Gharnef's base in FE1, as his followers were able to resurrect him from it.

11 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

And regardless, that Naga is the origin of the Spheres is only further testament to their power, a physical fang crafted into a sword to embody her great strength, Spheres upon a Shield to embody her boundless wisdom.

 

 About the Spheres. They were said to be passed down in the Divine Dragon tribe for millennia. From what we know, Naga created the shield portion of the SOS, but its power is explicitly stated to come from the jewels. This doesn't necessarily rule out the theory that she created them, but "passed down" implies succession. I don't favor that theory. 

 

Chainy:
Gato was afraid of shocking you so he didn’t say anything.
I will tell you.
However, after I’ve told you, you’ll probably think it was better off not knowing.
The orbs rest on the shield that seals the Earth Dragons…
Basically they are part of the Shield of Seals.
Since ancient times, the Divine Dragons have passed down these sacred jewels, each possessing different powers.
To put it simply, the shield is just a pedestal and the five Orbs are what creates the power of the seal.
So if any one of the Orbs is lost the seal will weaken.
 

Edited February 4, 2018 by Køkø

[omegaxis1]

13 hours ago, Køkø said:

The Loptyr Cult has one of the best backstories in FE. http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Loptyrian_Cult  

Ashera's religion is decently fleshed out. Disappointingly, no practices and customs are mentioned, but at least it's explained that the religion is purely a human creation. Ashera is not benevolent. 

Gaiden, is you know, Gaiden. Echoes didn't bother to expand on that.   

You already know how I feel about Awakening, and by extension, the Grimleal.  

True. The Lopto Sect is probably the most fleshed out Fire Emblem religions, with Ashera's religion a close second. 

You know, there are some things about the Grimleal that I have considered. In the Grimleal, the belief is that the Grima is a god that descends onto humanity to punish it for becoming corrupted by evil.  Minor believers believe that only the sinful will be punished and those that worship Grima will be spared.  Major believers learn that Grima will destroy all of humanity, as all of humans are sinful for allowing Grima to even come to be. Because the world had bathed in the blood of war for so long, with very few humans ever performing the right thing, Grima is meant to destroy the world, so that the world can start over. The hierophant of the Grimleal are raised with the strict mindset to believe that humanity was evil and beyond salvation, where they are shown on the ugliness of humanity, and then ultimately making the heir kill the previous leader (ie their parent) so that it destroys whatever goodwill they might have had leftover. Major believers of the cult also have the Mark of Grima branded onto their backs, a painful ritual that can also result in the person still dying, but only the truly hardcore believers would have the resolve to go through it. 

13 hours ago, Køkø said:

Not related but I'm still waiting on Kaga's response. In the meantime, I've got some proof that Gharnef created Imhullu rather than stealing it. Gato placed seals on powerful magic like Excalibur and Aura to keep them from falling into the wrong hands. Imhullu is more powerful than both Aura and Excalibur, so naturally this would have a seal too. How would Gharnef be able to use Imhullu after stealing it?

Possible. Although if the seal is to tie itself to a bloodline, then it might be possible that Gharnef was the very first one. 

2 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

And I'd say Wendel's is better. Since why would anyone invent Imhullu when it just seems wickedly evil? Gotoh on the other hand having the Darksphere in his possession explains what happened to it after the Binding Shield was broken (the Fane of Raman kept Geo, Star, and Light, LIfe was stolen and sold, Gotoh kept personal watch over Dark (probably due to it being dangerous)). The Darksphere was invented to seal the Earth Dragons with the rest, more than justifying the risk it poses, whereas Imhullu has no explanation as to why someone had to make it if Gharnef didn't.

And technically, you could say Gotoh is right and Wendel is too. Gharnef stealing the Darksphere meant he stole the origin of Imhullu, so basically he stole Imhullu since he stole the one thing he later used to make Imhullu. Not the best of logic and I'm pretty sure this isn't what Gotoh meant, and it leaves you wondering where the Darksphere was in FE1 (actually it was unused in FE1's data, no Lifesphere in there, but there was a Timesphere), but it still makes a fairly logical retcon answer.

The Darksphere is also pretty evil too, but it was clearly created as well. It's ultimately a tool meant for how one chooses to use it. Imhullu is evil because Gharnef is the one using it. But if someone else's hands, it could be used for good. Though since Imhullu is used by using the spirits of the dead, it would make sense that the magic is more malevolent by nature. 

That would be a good point there. We could also consider this to be a retcon, as the Shield of Seals might not have been fully considered at that time. After all, the story of Fire Emblem with Marth actually didn't exist until FE3, hence why FE3 had Book 1 be the story of Shadow Dragon, and Book 2 be the Mystery of the Emblem. So he decided to just tie Imhullu with the Darksphere because their powers are similar to one another. 

1 hour ago, Køkø said:

Now for the second part, that's a stretch.The Darksphere theft makes the most sense as it also explains why Gharnef can use Imhullu in the first place. I can't imagine that Gato wouldn't put a seal on a hypothetical pre-existing Imhullu tome. It's better story wise as well. I got the feeling that Gharnef was always a better mage than Miloah, which really set him off when Aura was entrusted to the former. In an effort to prove his worth, he uses the Darksphere to create a much more powerful spell. In the process, he unintentionally corrupts his soul and magnifies his most negative attributes, and becomes the Gharnef we're familiar with. At least that's how I imagine it. He was Lyon way before Lyon existed.  

That might actually have been the case. Gharnef wouldn't have had this jealousy of losing to Miloah this badly unless he felt he should have been chosen instead. It's like Merric and Arlen, where Arlen believes that he was the worthier mage for Excalibur. And given by how the Darksphere amplified Hardin's grief over his loveless marriage with Nyna, it stands to reason that the Darksphere also amplified Gharnef's jealousy and greed as well.

1 hour ago, Køkø said:

About the Spheres. They were said to be passed down in the Divine Dragon tribe for millennia. From what we know, Naga created the shield portion of the SOS, but its power is explicitly stated to come from the jewels. This doesn't necessarily rule out the theory that she created them, but "passed down" implies succession. I don't favor that theory. 

And even now, the origins of these spheres have not fully been explored. Awakening has seemed to altered the lore to now have it that each Gemstone actually contains a fraction of Naga's own power, though. Well, there are other factors that creates issues here. One part is that Naga died when she was about 5000 years old, according to Xane in FE12, and there's the case about Naga possibly not being the original Naga. 

Unless we are to go with the theory that Naga can actually create vessels for herself to be reborn, similar to Nagi, that after regaining their full power they are Naga once more, then Naga has died in the past as well, and then revived herself into a new vessel to be the Naga that gave birth to Tiki. This would mean that Naga created the Gemstones and was passing them down.

[Køkø]

17 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

You know, there are some things about the Grimleal that I have considered. In the Grimleal, the belief is that the Grima is a god that descends onto humanity to punish it for becoming corrupted by evil.  Minor believers believe that only the sinful will be punished and those that worship Grima will be spared.  Major believers learn that Grima will destroy all of humanity, as all of humans are sinful for allowing Grima to even come to be. Because the world had bathed in the blood of war for so long, with very few humans ever performing the right thing, Grima is meant to destroy the world, so that the world can start over. The hierophant of the Grimleal are raised with the strict mindset to believe that humanity was evil and beyond salvation, where they are shown on the ugliness of humanity, and then ultimately making the heir kill the previous leader (ie their parent) so that it destroys whatever goodwill they might have had leftover. Major believers of the cult also have the Mark of Grima branded onto their backs, a painful ritual that can also result in the person still dying, but only the truly hardcore believers would have the resolve to go through it. 

Now this is good. What stings the most is that this is what Awakening could have been.

[omegaxis1]

24 minutes ago, Køkø said:

Now this is good. What stings the most is that this is what Awakening could have been.

Mhm. And this can also explain why Validar wants to always hurry to revive Grima. The belief is that they are delaying what is destined to happen, being that the world must be destroyed because the world is covered in sin. And to them, Naga and the others are evil for rejecting the notion of Grima's attempts to justify the world. 

Of course, the Grimleal are wrong as Grima only intends to destroy the world for his own power, but then again, they have no idea what Grima truly is. No one really would have considered that Grima was in fact a science project.