Mist and Rhys (FE9)

[Reikken]

After promotion is my big thing. Rhys comes about 6 chapters earlier. He's much better the first chapter you have Mist simply because she needs to get a staff level up before she can use Mend and Rhys is healing so much more. Then Rhys is cheaper for the next few maps, depending on when Rhys promotes. After Rhys promotes and until Mist does, he's clearly superior. Although Physic gives Rhys some nice Range - Not better than Mist with a Psychic, but generally equal range, maybe a square less. That's about a chapter or two there per physic.

Rhys is better half the chapters you have Mist. Mist is better the other half. Rhys is around longer. His point. Yay for lazy debating.

Magic Swords give her better offensive, though it's limited and not exactly incredible. And it's not entirely plausible without those Arms scrolls. Her supports come in big here, though. If she has an edge, it's here.

No, they can't one-round much, but they can certainly 2-round things. That's not all that crappy. It's not like everyone else is always one-rounding everything. Adding some crap offense to someone who can't quite make the kill in one round gets the thing killed. And, given a forged weapon, they can one-round more things.

The cost of staves isn't much of an issue. You're not exactly hurting for money. You pretty much have more than you need. And besides, Mend gives more exp. If Rhys decides to try to be cheaper by using Heal instead of Mend, his level lead diminishes. Yes, Rhys is better for chapter 9. But not after that. I would say that Mist is better if anything, due to giving support bonuses. Until Rhys promotes and before Mist does. He's better there again. This is also when you start getting physics and whatnot, stuff that gives tons of exp, so Mist promotes not long after Rhys does.

And then Mist is better for the rest of the game. And no, arms scrolls aren't needed for her to use magic swords. She only needs 90 weapon exp to get a high enough weapon level. That's 45 swings of a steel sword, or about 25 rounds of usually double attacking. She can't use the sword right away without the use of arms scrolls, but it doesn't take an incredibly long time either. Not that arms scrolls are particularly valuable anyway. I can't think of much use for them. Weapon levels aren't hard to come by, and there aren't many high level weapons until you can buy silvers, which isn't until ch 23.

[bunny: spider bitten]

No, they can't one-round much, but they can certainly 2-round things. That's not all that crappy. It's not like everyone else is always one-rounding everything. Adding some crap offense to someone who can't quite make the kill in one round gets the thing killed. And, given a forged weapon, they can one-round more things.

The cost of staves isn't much of an issue. You're not exactly hurting for money. You pretty much have more than you need. And besides, Mend gives more exp. If Rhys decides to try to be cheaper by using Heal instead of Mend, his level lead diminishes. Yes, Rhys is better for chapter 9. But not after that. I would say that Mist is better if anything, due to giving support bonuses. Until Rhys promotes and before Mist does. He's better there again. This is also when you start getting physics and whatnot, stuff that gives tons of exp, so Mist promotes not long after Rhys does.

And then Mist is better for the rest of the game. And no, arms scrolls aren't needed for her to use magic swords. She only needs 90 weapon exp to get a high enough weapon level. That's 45 swings of a steel sword, or about 25 rounds of usually double attacking. She can't use the sword right away without the use of arms scrolls, but it doesn't take an incredibly long time either. Not that arms scrolls are particularly valuable anyway. I can't think of much use for them. Weapon levels aren't hard to come by, and there aren't many high level weapons until you can buy silvers, which isn't until ch 23.

Took you a bit.

You're *forced* to use Rhys for the first six chapters. While that's not completely true, thus the asterisk, most people will use him until they get Mist simply to make playing smoother.

Using heal over Mend isn't a huge loss - a level to Mist every 100 staff uses. One level. Not a huge deal. They heal roughyl the same amount - generally enough. Money saved is money saved, and he can have Mend to heal the big wounds.

Considering how much Light magic costs to forge, it actually pays off a bit later. 4 Heal staves and 2 Mend staves work well to get Rhys to promote. It's about 2000 gold overall. And you can sell the arm scrolls with Rhys. That's enough to account for 3 +2 might -2 Weight light magics if Mist is getting +5 might Steel Swords. Or you can forge for someone else since no, that isn't exactly a huge payoff.

When Physic does finally come into play, Rhys is much better for it before and after promotion.

Mist's earliest support with Titania doesn't appear until chapter 12. Mordecai's support doeasn't appear until 13. So Rhys is cheaper for three chapters and thats the only outstanding factor between the two for chapters 10 and 11. And if Rhys is at least level 16 by then(or if he starts with some base defense), then you'll probably have to wait for her Mordy support for it to matter.

Rhys is also clearly superior after he promotes until Mist promotes.

Without something forged or magic imbued, I don't think Mist is two rounding things. She'll help someone else One round things, but that's another story. Then the Magic weapons give her 40 uses - Probably about 19 kills, or two chapters worth of offense.

With everything I've outlined, I'm sure you could find at least 12 chapters.

[Reikken]

Yes, Rhys exists for early chapters. But while it is six chapters, do note that most of these are among the game's shortest chapters. Chs 2 and 4 combined are shorter than most of the rest of the game's chapters. 5 is also quite short. 6 isn't so short as to be only as long as half a chapter, but it's still on the short side. Only 7 is pretty average-sized, and 8 isn't much shorter.

100 exp isn't a big deal, but it's a much bigger deal than 3k saved. You already have enough money to forge a weapon with maxed mt and boosted hit every chapter. What are you going to do? add 9 crit to a weapon? Forge something super expensive like adding mt to a light tome? That's really about all it's doing for you. So no, Rhys isn't any better. Healing someone with high hp like Boyd to full after he gets reduced to like 4 hp? Ok, that's valid, though minor due to how rare it is. It has to be someone who has that much hp, and then he has to take that much damage without any healing in between, and then he also needs to have to have it all healed back quickly. Someone quickly losing over 30 hp and then needing over 30 hp of healing done very quickly after that? Yeah, that's pretty rare. The differences between them after Mist gets Mend and before Rhys promotes are pretty negligible.

"Mist's earliest support with Titania doesn't appear until chapter 12. Mordecai's support doeasn't appear until 13. So Rhys is cheaper for three chapters and thats the only outstanding factor between the two for chapters 10 and 11. And if Rhys is at least level 16 by then(or if he starts with some base defense), then you'll probably have to wait for her Mordy support for it to matter."

What does Rhys's level have to do with Mist's supports?

"Without something forged or magic imbued, I don't think Mist is two rounding things."

Perhaps you're forgetting that she gets like +4 atk from her supports? +2 to +5, depending on which supports. A Mordecai B Titania = +4 atk.

lv ~20/7-8 Mist, steel sword, supports = 24 atk, 20 AS

vs lv 6 halberdier (37-38 hp, 13-14 AS, 12-13 def). That's 10-11 damage per hit, 20-22 per round, even with her going against the weapon triangle. Obviously she fares much better against warriors, snipers, sages, and the various unpromoted units. Even swordmasters. She won't double them, but she can take a heavy weapon, like a steel blade, and get enough atk to kill in two hits. Then you get silver swords starting with ch 23.

"Then the Magic weapons give her 40 uses - Probably about 19 kills, or two chapters worth of offense."

more like 25 kills. There's nothing that isn't getting killed in two hits, and wyverns usually get OHK'd by the sonic sword. 20 mt on them and all.

Anyway, saying "two chapters" is rather misleading. It's only getting used when needed, and Mist is support offense to begin with, so it lasts much longer than two chapters. And 10 kills is more than a chapter's dose already. There are what? 40-50 enemies per chapter? If you have 7 attackers +Mist, that's like 5-6 kills each.

"With everything I've outlined, I'm sure you could find at least 12 chapters."

I don't know what you're saying here...

[bunny: spider bitten]

Yes, Rhys exists for early chapters. But while it is six chapters, do note that most of these are among the game's shortest chapters. Chs 2 and 4 combined are shorter than most of the rest of the game's chapters. 5 is also quite short. 6 isn't so short as to be only as long as half a chapter, but it's still on the short side. Only 7 is pretty average-sized, and 8 isn't much shorter.

I'm well aware that they're small chapters. Which is why I never went around claiming that he'll promote 6 chapters earlier, or even 5. Maybe something like 3.

100 exp isn't a big deal, but it's a much bigger deal than 3k saved. You already have enough money to forge a weapon with maxed mt and boosted hit every chapter. What are you going to do? add 9 crit to a weapon? Forge something super expensive like adding mt to a light tome? That's really about all it's doing for you. So no, Rhys isn't any better. Healing someone with high hp like Boyd to full after he gets reduced to like 4 hp? Ok, that's valid, though minor due to how rare it is. It has to be someone who has that much hp, and then he has to take that much damage without any healing in between, and then he also needs to have to have it all healed back quickly. Someone quickly losing over 30 hp and then needing over 30 hp of healing done very quickly after that? Yeah, that's pretty rare. The differences between them after Mist gets Mend and before Rhys promotes are pretty negligible.

Negligible but existent. Like I said, you can stick to heal because no one will take so much damage that Rhys needs 10 more damage healed.

Also, in the rare case they get attacked, Rhys has better avoid and defense before Mist gets supports.

And even in a game where you can buy anything, saving money isn't an awful advantage. And I suppose you could forge a Light Magic with full crit, though it won't exactly activate often enough.

What does Rhys's level have to do with Mist's supports?

After a certain point, Rhys will have more defense than Mist's support+Mist's base can provide.

Perhaps you're forgetting that she gets like +4 atk from her supports? +2 to +5, depending on which supports. A Mordecai B Titania = +4 atk.

lv ~20/7-8 Mist, steel sword, supports = 24 atk, 20 AS

vs lv 6 halberdier (37-38 hp, 13-14 AS, 12-13 def). That's 10-11 damage per hit, 20-22 per round, even with her going against the weapon triangle. Obviously she fares much better against warriors, snipers, sages, and the various unpromoted units. Even swordmasters. She won't double them, but she can take a heavy weapon, like a steel blade, and get enough atk to kill in two hits. Then you get silver swords starting with ch 23.

At which point, she'll have 80 hit. Maybe. So she's two rounding things ~2/3s of the time.

Rhys is two rounding everything. He's probably even one rounding that enemy you just posted. He also has 1-2 range, so unless Mist can say the same, he's got a clear offensive lead. Then there's the Knight Ring, where the number of characters that actually do better with it is a bit limited, or the Archer Band, which gives him. . . competent speed. With that, he'll have equal or better offensive.

more like 25 kills. There's nothing that isn't getting killed in two hits, and wyverns usually get OHK'd by the sonic sword. 20 mt on them and all.

Anyway, saying "two chapters" is rather misleading. It's only getting used when needed, and Mist is support offense to begin with, so it lasts much longer than two chapters. And 10 kills is more than a chapter's dose already. There are what? 40-50 enemies per chapter? If you have 7 attackers +Mist, that's like 5-6 kills each.

25 kills? Unless you're looking for Wyverns(which are rare), or the leagues of Peg Knights, I'm not sure you're going to get 25 kills. Unless you're attacking units at half HP in the first place.

Anyway, I say two chapters because Mist is a target for enemies. Crap HP, defense, and average avoid. Even if that's not the case, were talking 6 chapters at most, probably more like 4-5 if you burn them all at once. Regardless, you'll be out of uses for the Sonic Sword by time you get the Runesword, and you simply don't get the same mileage from it as the Sonic Sword.

I don't know what you're saying here...

Mostly saying that (if) he's better for at least half the chapters you have Mist, and you have him for longer, then he's probably better overall.

[Admiral "Bull" Halsey]

Is this an official debate thread or what? <_<

[Reikken]

maybe

I'm well aware that they're small chapters. Which is why I never went around claiming that he'll promote 6 chapters earlier, or even 5. Maybe something like 3.

Yeah, like ch 16 and two parts of ch 17, or something like that.

Also, in the rare case they get attacked, Rhys has better avoid and defense before Mist gets supports.

No, he has less def. 0 base ftl. He does have more hp, though. And he doesn't have more avoid, either. His luck is higher, and Mist's spd is slightly higher.

And even in a game where you can buy anything, saving money isn't an awful advantage. And I suppose you could forge a Light Magic with full crit, though it won't exactly activate often enough.

You can't just buy anything. You can only buy basic weapons. No killing edges, no brave lances, no hammers, no laguzslayers, etc. And forges are limited by the one per chapter restriction rather than by money.

After a certain point, Rhys will have more defense than Mist's support+Mist's base can provide.

That never happens outside of RNG blessing/screwing. He starts with less, and his goes up much more slowly.

At which point, she'll have 80 hit. Maybe. So she's two rounding things ~2/3s of the time. Rhys is two rounding everything. He's probably even one rounding that enemy you just posted. He also has 1-2 range, so unless Mist can say the same, he's got a clear offensive lead.

80 hit only when she's going against the weapon triangle like that. She has more on literally every other enemy type. 80 displayed hit is also 92.2% real hit.

And to Rhys one-rounding that... His average AS is about 16.5. So he might but probably not. He can one-round slower things pretty easily, though. Like generals.

And 1-2 range doesn't help player phase offense. Unless you mean attacking range. Which he still loses.

And Mist one-rounds magic doods. She gets bishops easily and is borderline on sages. That is, until you can buy silver swords. Then she moves up to one-rounding snipers, too, though borderline on those if you're doing random mode.

Then forged weapons help both of them, especially a forged silver sword, which lets Mist one-round most things.

This is also where durability and mobility come into play the most. There's the issue of Rhys being in range to attack things and having enough durability to do so. Especially since most good units have like 500 move. Rhys has like 8 less avo and 5 less def. He dies in 2-3 hits. He also has a chance of dying instantly to crit-boosted classes (snipers and swordmasters) or killer weapons, or ballistae (since they're operated by snipers) while Mist has enough def to avoid that.

Then there's the Knight Ring, where the number of characters that actually do better with it is a bit limited, or the Archer Band, which gives him. . . competent speed. With that, he'll have equal or better offensive.

No, the knight ring is awesome on loads of doods. Like Ike, Boyd, Reyson, Mordecai. Even Volke to let him get chests faster. Archer band, sure, since there are like 3 of them. But the same goes for Mist, too. A str/spd/def band helps.

25 kills? Unless you're looking for Wyverns(which are rare), or the leagues of Peg Knights, I'm not sure you're going to get 25 kills. Unless you're attacking units at half HP in the first place.

wyverns: 18,19,23,24,26,29, and extremely common in 20. Eh, they're not all that rare. Plus a couple random crits (she does get +10 crit from Ike sometimes) should make for 25.

Anyway, even if you make it like 23, that's not much different..

Anyway, I say two chapters because Mist is a target for enemies. Crap HP, defense, and average avoid. Even if that's not the case, were talking 6 chapters at most, probably more like 4-5 if you burn them all at once. Regardless, you'll be out of uses for the Sonic Sword by time you get the Runesword, and you simply don't get the same mileage from it as the Sonic Sword.

Considering that an average number of kills per chapter is about 5-6, after mages, forged weapons, unpromoted doods, and just helping someone else kill in one turn, you shouldn't need to kill much more than about two enemies per chapter. More some chapters, less others. Which makes for about 7 chapters. Either way, you get silver swords before it runs out.

Mostly saying that (if) he's better for at least half the chapters you have Mist, and you have him for longer, then he's probably better overall.

Ah. Well, he isn't. He's better for about 4 of them. Ch 9 and the ~3 promoted/not promoted chapters

[Admiral "Bull" Halsey]

It seems to me that you guys are continuing the conversation from another topic and importing it here. What's the purpose of making a topic if it's already been discuss? <_<

[Reikken]

Someone suggested to move it here, so I did. It would probably have been better to leave the discussion there, but meh.

[bunny: spider bitten]

Yeah, like ch 16 and two parts of ch 17, or something like that.

3 maps is 3 maps.

No, he has less def. 0 base ftl. He does have more hp, though. And he doesn't have more avoid, either. His luck is higher, and Mist's spd is slightly higher.

Seeing has there's no way this side of hell Mist is the same level in chapter 10 and 11, so there's a rather good chance Rhys has better avoid. 3 levels give Rhys 1 more point in avoid, and he could probably get about 4 if you really push it in there. 4 levels will give Rhys 1 less point in defense but a 7 point HP lead.

He's better for those two chapters. Potentially 3, considering that the 2 level at the same rate, and Rhys has a better defense growth, the same speed growth, and only 10% less in luck and HP. So Mist picking up 1 point of defense from Titania isn't exactly ground shattering. Just because she has supports doesn't mean they break the game.

You can't just buy anything. You can only buy basic weapons. No killing edges, no brave lances, no hammers, no laguzslayers, etc. And forges are limited by the one per chapter restriction rather than by money.

You'll more than likely mod magic weapons for less weight. Silver weapons aren't quite the cheapest piece in the world. You can buy Killer weapons in normal, and saving money is saving money.

That never happens outside of RNG blessing/screwing. He starts with less, and his goes up much more slowly.

Yes, because Mist's 15% defense growth beats up on Rhys' 25% growth. He ultimately has better defense supports aside, and Mist only compares because of a better base and promotion gains.

80 hit only when she's going against the weapon triangle like that. She has more on literally every other enemy type. 80 displayed hit is also 92.2% real hit.

Yes, but seeing as how she needs to make 4 attacks to actually make a kill, her chance to kill rate is only 75%.

And I didn't take enemy luck into account.

And to Rhys one-rounding that... His average AS is about 16.5. So he might but probably not. He can one-round slower things pretty easily, though. Like generals.

When did Rhys get to be the same level as Mist? Let's not pretend she can magically catch up to him. That said, he probably only has 17, but it's worthwhile to point out that they're both Healers. Aside from picking up slightly in BEXP and after Rhys promotes, he'll still have around 2 levels on her. Archer band gives him 18.

And 1-2 range doesn't help player phase offense. Unless you mean attacking range. Which he still loses.

Being able to attack at a range isn't quite an offensive advantage, but defensively makes him much more worthwhile as an endeavor when both have defensive capabilities that wouldn't make anyone save for Ellen jealous.

And Mist one-rounds magic doods. She gets bishops easily and is borderline on sages. That is, until you can buy silver swords. Then she moves up to one-rounding snipers, too, though borderline on those if you're doing random mode.

Then forged weapons help both of them, especially a forged silver sword, which lets Mist one-round most things.

Of course, Rhys is one rounding more unpromoted units and Generals.

This is also where durability and mobility come into play the most. There's the issue of Rhys being in range to attack things and having enough durability to do so. Especially since most good units have like 500 move.

Enemies don't have 500 of anything. But since Rhys can attack at a range, you can just as soon have him attack from afar and place something in front of him. You'll say that's unrealistic, but there are far more unrealistic concepts that exist in the debating world. One of which will be addressed in a moment.

Rhys has like 8 less avo and 5 less def.

Mist *never* has an 8 avo lead. For what that's worth.

He also has a chance of dying instantly to crit-boosted classes (snipers and swordmasters) or killer weapons, or ballistae (since they're operated by snipers) while Mist has enough def to avoid that.

Geez, if you're giving Snipers and Swordmasters a decent chance to one round him with the luck he has, then maybe giving a Light Tome max crit isn't so bold a notion.

And Mist can't exactly take a killer weapon to the face either.

No, the knight ring is awesome on loads of doods. Like Ike, Boyd, Reyson, Mordecai. Even Volke to let him get chests faster.

Yet, it'd do more justice to Rhys, because he has more utility as a healer than Ike, Boyd, and Mordecai. Volke is one thing. I'd argue that there's only one chapter where there are so many chests this would make a world of difference, but he also has the defensive stats to carry himself.

And then Reyson. . . Sure, he can use it, but why? His utility is overrated. You expect to make a perfect diamond out of four units just to use his ability half the time and still get 8 kills? And in that scenario he needs to run away for what reason?

He's a good candidate for it, but he's rather crappy for all the attention he gets. He's much better in FE10, but here, he's only reducing the number of turns you spend in a chapter by about 1, if you're lucky.

Archer band, sure, since there are like 3 of them. But the same goes for Mist, too. A str/spd/def band helps.

Not nearly as much. It'd be one thing if Rhys were slow as christ and needed the band to make a difference. If that were the case, then I wouldn't have brought it up. A point of speed could very well have him doubling a significant number of enemies.

Ah. Well, he isn't. He's better for about 4 of them. Ch 9 and the ~3 promoted/not promoted chapters

He has the same range and heals more with Physic, along with better offensive capabilities in a few chapters.

Until Mist gets supports, he's better.

[bunny: spider bitten]

That's 3 posts each, right?

I guess it should be closed or what not?

[Reikken]

if it's official, yeah

My interest in it has also waned, so

Unless you want to continue it