Rate the Unit, Day 92: Brave Ephraim & Brave Veronica

[Ice Dragon]

3 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

You're thinking in terms of amount of buffs rather than the number of units needed to provide said buffs. 6/6/5/6 only needs one dancer to provide. (Or 6/6/0/6 if you want to keep your action turn.) Hell, like you've said, 4/4/6/6 is possible with just Ninian.

Odin doesn't fly. The best my 10/40 Odin can do with one support without Def/Res Link is +6/6/4/4, which is a dancer with Atk Tactic, Spd Tactic, and Geyser Dance, and that sacrifices a mobility passive B skill on the dancer.

With +6/6/4/4, this 10/40 Odin is worse than Linde with refined Aura with +4/0/0/0.

Actual Odin with +6/6/4/4 performs comparably to 10/40 Odin with +6/6/6/6, and actual Odin with +6/6/4/0 performs comparably to 10/40 Odin with +6/6/4/4.

 

13 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

(and presumably does 0 damage to him)

I'm not sure how you're pulling that one off with only 36 Def (25 base Def + 4 Def from merges + 1 Def from stat reallocation + 6 Def from buffs). Literally every red unit in the game that doesn't have a noodle arm (Caeda, Fir, etc.) hits him for at least 10 damage without a Special (57 Atk), never mind any blue, green, or colorless units.

 

1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

Defensively though they can afford to skip QR and run renewal off the back of that 40 speed, since you'll have stats around what Sophia's looks like. Sophia has 33 + 19 = 52 Atk + Spd. This guy has 2 more points in bulk, never gets doubled, and usually doubles you back.

No, that's not even close. Defensively, Sophia runs Raudhrowl+ [Def], which gives her +6 more Def, +4 more Res and +2 more HP if you put 2 potatoes next to her, not to mention she can afford to sacrifice her Atk for more Def from her nature (and +Def actually gives her more wins against red and colorless at negligible cost to her green match-ups). Also worth mentioning that I'm using +0/0/6/6 buffs for Sophia, which is super easy (a single unit with dual Tactic or two stacks of Spur Def/Res). Adding an Atk buff is just icing on the cake.

Sure, Sophia's player-phase performance is beyond abysmal, but having a superlative enemy phase and an abysmal player phase is better than having a poor enemy phase and a barely competent support-hungry player phase.

[Xenomata]

Missed Shiro and Rhajat purely because I don't really know what to say about either of them...? I'm getting soft, normally I just strain my mind even harder if I can't come up with anything...

Zelgius

Spoiler

A sword armor built specifically for the enemy phase. He sports good Attack and Defense, decent Speed, HP high enough to trigger Panic Ploy on most Infantry, and no Resistance worth speaking about.

The Alondite fixes the whole movement problem on Armors by letting them counterattack even on ranged foes, and Warp Powder lets Zelgius reach the battle faster than he could have even with Armor March or Armor Boots. Fierce Stance is just enemy-phase Death Blow, but it's a good skill nonetheless, and Panic Ploy, as mentioned earlier, can work decently well with Zelgius's good HP. Meanwhile, Black Luna is a stronger Luna with the same cooldown time.

Warp Powder is good, don't get me wrong, but Zelgius becomes a lot more frightening if he has Vengeful Fighter, as he'll be able to charge Black Luna in time for his follow-up counterattack even if he only manages to avoid being doubled, which he does usually manage. Plus Armor March status works perfectly fine for getting around the map. As for other skills he could take instead... Wo Dao and Distant Counter for stronger Black Luna triggers if you are evil.

The bads are that even with his powerful enemy phase performance, his Resistance is lacking, and his HP isn't necessarily high enough to enable Zelgius to take a Blue Magic blow without the risk of getting killed, let alone two in a row. He is also exceptionally vulnerable to a... later unit, and all forms of Armor effective weaponry, which has been on the rise lately. One last thing to note is that Warp Powder has a limited trigger time, only working above 80%, so after the first battle Zelgius will need assistance to get to the next battle.

Still, even I, who don't use Zelgius, can tell you he is a good unit. He has a presence that threatens the unexpecting units who blindly charge at him, if counterable via simple means.

Rating: 8.5/10 Zelgius is frightening on the enemy phase, and has Warp Powder to get to the battle sooner than most other armors can't match without Armor March. His enemy-phase skillset is also good from the start and worth keeping, though he remains vulnerable to Blue Magic is his Res is too low, which it usually is, or it's the one BM user...

 

Micaiah

Spoiler

The bane of Cavalry and Armors with lower Res.

Micaiah sports a good Attack stat with Resistance high enough to let her take magic blows at a steady pace. Her Speed and HP are both lacking, while her Defense isn't even worth trying to fix.

Thani has an effect that lowers damage from the first hit on ranged Cavalry and Armored foes, as well as Resistance +3 to make her Res even better, and her starting skillset is mostly geared towards enemy phase with Distant Counter letting her take more Magic blows, and Guard to disable the enemy charging their special. But Thani's more notable aspect is the ability to deal effective damage on Cavalry and Armored foes. Given how high Micaiah's Attack can get, in most cases this will become a OHKO. Sacrifice gives a sort of Staff unit assist to Micaiah by letting her cut her HP down in exchange for recovering an allies HP by Micaiah's current HP -1, as well as removing status conditions like Gravity and Dazzling Staff. Lastly, Drive Atk remains rare and should be kept on Micaiah regardless.

Her base kit is good, though an offensive set taking advantage of Micaiah's armor/cavalry effective weapon is also possible. Renewal can help Micaiah recovering HP with Sacrifice, while Chill Res can get a targets Res low enough to force a OHKO. As for specials, Iceberg/Glacies would be powerful triggers with Micaiah's base Res and Thani, and Glimmer would help enable an effective damage kill.

Hurting Micaiah, besides her bad Defense and Speed, is actually a problem with the more popular Armor units: they tend to have deceptive magic bulk, between their high HP and Resistance generally not low enough that any magic hit would be a OHKO, unlike most other units. Lances have access to Berkut's Lance as well, so even neutral matchups run the risk of Micaiah not being able to net the kill. In most cases, Micaiah only has one chance to get the kill, between her Speed and Defense both being rather low, or else she will be killed on retaliation, though building up her Attack enough that even 40 enemy-phase Res won't be enough to block an effective hit is possible.

Overall, Micaiah proves dangerous to face with Armor and Cavalry units. She's frightening in the one hit she has, so take advantage of that one hit as much as possible.

Rating: 7.5/10 Micaiah's high Resistance can enable her to tank magic, but her Attack in addition to Thani's effective weapon effects can let her bring down most any Armor unit if she is assisted enough. She can usually only afford to rely on one hit though, because her overall physical bulk is not enough to let her afford much more than that, plus her Speed is too low to let her take another shot anyways. The deceptive magic bulk of armors is also somewhat offputting.

Edited July 16, 2018 by Xenomata

[DehNutCase]

5 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Odin doesn't fly. The best my 10/40 Odin can do with one support without Def/Res Link is +6/6/4/4, which is a dancer with Atk Tactic, Spd Tactic, and Geyser Dance, and that sacrifices a mobility passive B skill on the dancer.

With +6/6/4/4, this 10/40 Odin is worse than Linde with refined Aura with +4/0/0/0.

Actual Odin with +6/6/4/4 performs comparably to 10/40 Odin with +6/6/6/6, and actual Odin with +6/6/4/0 performs comparably to 10/40 Odin with +6/6/4/4.

I kind of wish we were using Sophia's bulk for this rather than Odin's, since this build wants to see multiple combats.

 

Anyway---being worse than Linde with refined Aura is actually more or less acceptable* for me, considering the kind of unit this is. It's not meant to be comparable to the best specialists in their own niche---like how ridiculous Reinhardt is---but just mediocre at everything. I'm basically trying to rate a unit that sacrifices everything for the ability to have more options than everyone else.

*In the sense that this level of offense is acceptable for a 6/10 unit, which I would rate this guy around. I'll agree this guy isn't anywhere near something I'd call good, just functional.

 

And, um, of course actual Odin is going to be comparable with 6/6/4/0 to this guy's 6/6/4/4. They both have more than enough bulk to begin with for an offensive tome, but regular Odin has 4 more points in his combined Atk + Spd.

6 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I'm not sure how you're pulling that one off with only 36 Def (25 base Def + 4 Def from merges + 1 Def from stat reallocation + 6 Def from buffs). Literally every red unit in the game that doesn't have a noodle arm (Caeda, Fir, etc.) hits him for at least 10 damage without a Special (57 Atk), never mind any blue, green, or colorless units.

Fair. This guy really needs either a horse be able to run away and heal or a less hp focused spread.

16 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

No, that's not even close. Defensively, Sophia runs Raudhrowl+ [Def], which gives her +6 more Def, +4 more Res and +2 more HP if you put 2 potatoes next to her, not to mention she can afford to sacrifice her Atk for more Def from her nature (and +Def actually gives her more wins against red and colorless at negligible cost to her green match-ups). Also worth mentioning that I'm using +0/0/6/6 buffs for Sophia, which is super easy (a single unit with dual Tactic or two stacks of Spur Def/Res). Adding an Atk buff is just icing on the cake.

Sure, Sophia's player-phase performance is beyond abysmal, but having a superlative enemy phase and an abysmal player phase is better than having a poor enemy phase and a barely competent support-hungry player phase.

I was imagining a Sophia with 10/40, not Odin.

D :

Odin's defensive spread is not meant to be on a defensive unit. He has high hp, low def/res*, this is ideal for a PP all out offensive unit but kind of sad for a defensive one.

*I mean his bulk is god damn high for a tome, but in terms of distribution he looks a lot more like a good offensive tome than a good defensive tome.

But never mind that.

 

Regarding the superlative enemy phase and abysmal player one vs. mediocre either way---I kind of prefer the double mediocre combo*. And the exact setup that gives Sophia her superlative enemy phase is what triggers this theoretical Odin's player phase. You stand him next to two Hone/Fort buffers when he's about to get attacked on EP---while he's unbuffed if you don't want to hurt the guy attacking him---and then when player phase begins he has Astra fully charged and his buffs active. I don't know if you read my edit, but I was imagining this guy with CC Renewal Free Slot Flashing Blade Astra, before I remembered horses and fliers can't get Flashing Blade.

 

*I'm very much the control player in MTG and the like---I just like having options even if they're shit. Horses are definitely the 'rush' team in FEH (relative to other teams, they're strongest in the early turns but other team types catch up afterwards---you can overcome a mobility advantage with a positioning advantage, and horses usually have to either give ground or die when they're fighting), but they also happen to be the team with most options, because that's basically what mobility is---you get more squares you can choose to be in. It's just that sometimes all those squares (options) are shit.

[Ice Dragon]

3 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

I was imagining a Sophia with 10/40, not Odin.

The problem is not as much that Odin's bases are worse than Sophia's because Sophia's 40/28/29 is not that much different from 10/40 Odin's 43/26/28 but that Litrblade is just a far inferior weapon for enemy phase than Litrowl if you're not running a one-hit-kill build. Litrowl itself has +2/6/4 for defensive stats compared to Litrblade, which is better than taking the option of having massive Spd and lower defenses.

Spd tanks work by barely surviving one hit, then switching to player phase with Desperation. Def tanks work by having so much Def that even with no Spd, they don't care about taking additional hits (because that just helps them charge a stronger Special). A ranged infantry unit simply doesn't have enough stats to do both and actually have offensive presence.

 

17 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

I kind of prefer the double mediocre combo*

Double mediocre doesn't really cut it when the only things you ever fight are quad-Rallied armors on fortification tiles, which is why I've gravitated towards units with superlative performance on at least one phase (units like armors, dragons, Eldigan, Sigurd, Elise, Raven, etc.).

Now, if each phase is mediocre because you cover half of the relevant threats on one phase and the exact other half on the other phase for perfect coverage of relevant threats, that's a different story.

Anyways, I'm done derailing this thread for the millionth time. I think we've mostly come to common ground here and split over play style as per the usual.

[Shiki]

7 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Anyways, I'm done derailing this thread for the millionth time.

Nah, it's just another case of @DehNutCase being controversial.

Speaking of which: not counting your vote btw. It's one thing to penalize Armor units for being less mobile; it's another to put them at the same range as garbage like Odin. At some point your reasoning starts to be questionable rather than just being different. Looking back I should have said something about that with Amelia but back then I had less scores to compare with.

[Simpsons138]

Quick question: When will we begin doing limited heroes? Just wondering

[Shiki]

8 minutes ago, Simpsons138 said:

Quick question: When will we begin doing limited heroes? Just wondering

When we are done with the regular pool. Shouldn't take too long to get there (I think we have 5-6 banners left with an new banner coming this week)

[MacLovin]

Zelgius

8/10 He's solid and amazing. He's basically gotten stronger without that helmet on.

Even with a  -att nature, he's still capable of performing well.

 

Micaiah-8/10

I've only used her in vg, but goddamn is she good.

I want one.

Thanibombing, DD, and being able to nuke with glacies is good.

 

[Shiki]

Zelgius: 9.18
Micaiah: 8.08

We're entering the age of alts. REJOICE!

Sothe, Zephyr

Spoiler

Max. Stats:
35/39/42
33/36/39
30/33/36
19/22/25
18/21/24

Base Skills:

Peshkatz
( - )
Glimmer

Life and Death
( - )
Spur Atk Spd

Eirika, Anamnesis Lady

Spoiler

Max. Stats:
33/36/40
28/31/34
32/35/38
17/20/23
19/22/25

Base Skills:

Gleipnir
Rally Atk/Spd
( - )

Swift Sparrow
Desperation
R. Tome Exp

 

Edited July 16, 2018 by The Priest

[DehNutCase]

1 hour ago, The Priest said:

Nah, it's just another case of @DehNutCase being controversial.

Speaking of which: not counting your vote btw. It's one thing to penalize Armor units for being less mobile; it's another to put them at the same range as garbage like Odin. At some point your reasoning starts to be questionable rather than just being different. Looking back I should have said something about that with Amelia but back then I had less scores to compare with.

Armors, without spending unit turns, get +1 move, +6 to a defense stat from one other support unit, under the condition that the other armor unit is also an armor. March & Tactic S-seal.

Odin, without spending unit turns, gets +6 to both defense stats, under the condition that he's in Combined Arms.

 

Armors, by trading unit turns, get +4 to all stats from Ninian, but loses one move. This usually means they can't attack with their first unit-turn unless they're ranged---and note that W!Tharja rates 8.5, in huge part because she's ranged.

Odin, by trading unit turns, gets the same, but retains his mobility, and, therefore, player phase. Odin has 220:6:27 with -blade, Moonbow, L&D, +Spd/-Res, Atk +3 seal, his B-slot and C-slots are empty. His +4/+4 are 191:7:55.

Outside of combat, armors have armor level support abilities---low value assist slot, probably worst C-slot---and Odin has infantry level support---regular level assist slot, second worst C-slot.

 

Defensively, +6/+6/+0/+6 Alondite, Black Luna, Warding Breath, no B-slot (in case you want Vantage or Renewal utility or whatever), no C-slot, Atk +3 seal, +Atk/-Res Zelgius has 193:7:53, you might note this is very comparable to Odin's 191:7:55 on offense. And costs them both the same amount of support---one other unit devoting basically everything.

Edit: QR in B-slot bumps him up to 241:7:5

 

Mix-phased wise (which armors have difficulty doing) CC QR Odin has 236:4:13 with 6/4/6/6 (Atk Tactic, Hone Speed, Def\Res Link---Odin uses swap to get the link) on defense with -blade, Moonbow, CC, QR, Atk +3, no C-slot, +Atk/-Res. And 197:4:52 on offense---his support will need to use reposition or swap, meaning it costs a unit-turn for offense. But that's the same disadvantage armors usually act under on offense, since you'll, most of the time, need to dance or repo them to have them attack.

 

Edit: What I'm saying is, -blade is fucking good.

Edited July 16, 2018 by DehNutCase

[Ice Dragon]

1 hour ago, The Priest said:

Speaking of which: not counting your vote btw. It's one thing to penalize Armor units for being less mobile; it's another to put them at the same range as garbage like Odin. At some point your reasoning starts to be questionable rather than just being different. Looking back I should have said something about that with Amelia but back then I had less scores to compare with.

Honestly something I probably should have brought up much earlier if I had thought of it, but with the number of votes we're getting, it might make sense to always toss the highest and lowest scores when averaging (it's a pretty common practice to my knowledge, at least; I do recall the Olympics doing this for things like gymnastics and diving).

[Zapp Branniglenn]

1 hour ago, Mister Rogers said:

Even with a  -att nature, he's still capable of performing well.

Can confirm.

1 hour ago, The Priest said:

We're entering the age of alts. REJOICE!

Zelgius didn't count?

51 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Honestly something I probably should have brought up much earlier if I had thought of it, but with the number of votes we're getting, it might make sense to always toss the highest and lowest scores when averaging (it's a pretty common practice to my knowledge, at least; I do recall the Olympics doing this for things like gymnastics and diving).

And Tony Hawk's Pro Skater Competition levels.

@Ice DragonShouldn't you, like, be participating in this thread before trying to change how we do it? Few of us have experience with max merged units and the highest echelons of the arena. Just seems odd you pop in, say something, and leave without ever giving a score. Not trying to be confrontational, just wondering why you read the thread if you're not interested enough to give a score.

Sothe - Peshkatz is like if you combined the effects of Rogue and Smoke Daggers and made all of them +/- 4 instead of 6. And with no further refinements to Sothe's stats it almost seems like a side grade to existing daggers. He did launch almost two months after the weapon refinery so I just expect better. Swap this guy's attack and speed and he'd be top of the line for support oriented daggers, being only one point of speed behind Gaius. But only 33 speed cuts into his windsweep/watersweep potential. 36 attack is the best of the dagger units, but it's a superflous stat until you swap for an offense oriented weapon. If Dagger units had Brave or Firesweep weapons, then Sothe would be quite good, but currently he doesn't work as intended. 5 out of 10. So may options for building this guy but none seem particularly good.

Eirika - I want to say Put down your tryhard Leos, but Eirika isn't that great either. Gleipnir's effects are far from impressive. Regal Blade with Res +3. The Regal Blade effect is just weaker, mixed phase Swift Sparrow. The Res +3 would be appreciated if she had at least 28 at base for good ploys and surviving enemy mages. What makes Eirika so much better than Leo are just the improved offenses for wielding a blade tome. But her stats are all over the place once you take off Gleipnir. It's 2018 now and Horse Emblem is out while Mixed Emblem is in. Eirika wouldn't be my red pick. And if you wanted to do a horse team, you'd be better served having everybody butter up Better!Olwen and Reinhardt. Any pick of high tier Sword cavs would round out that team more than Eirika could. Also her BST is a tier less than Leo? 5.5 out of 10. There are worse red tomes, certainly, but I shouldn't feel this disappointed in the first post launch red tome cav.

Past Ratings

Spoiler

1. Alfonse - 3
2. Marth - 7
3. Sharena - 3
4. Jagen - 1
5. Anna - 4.5
6. Barst - 3
7. Cain - 4
8. Draug - 7.5
9. Gordin - 5
10. Jeorge - 5.5
11. Abel - 5.5
12. Linde - 9
13. Minerva - Abstain
14. Merric - 3.5
15. Maria - 6
16. Wrys - 3.5
17. Ceada - Abstain
18. Ogma - 4
19. Catria - 4
20. Est - 6
21. Sheena - 6.5
22. Cecilia - 4
23. Clarine - 6.5
24. Matthew - 4
25. Palla - 2.5
26. Roy -7
27. Gwendolyn - 7.5
28. Shanna - 4.5
29. Bartre - 7
30. Fae - 7.5
31. Serra - 4
32. Lissa - 2
33. Y!Tiki - 8
34. Lilina - 7
35. Florina - 1.5
36. M!Robin - 3.5
37. Hector - 8
38. Raven - 8.5
39. Gaius - 4 
40. Virion - 3.5
41. Raigh - 1.5
42. Sophia - 3.5
43. Sully -2.5
44. Cordelia -7
45. Hawkeye - 5.5
46. Nino - 8
47. Felicia - 6.5
48. Jakob - 1
49. Fir - 4
50. Eliwood - 5.5
51. Donnel - 3.5
52. Nowi - 8.5
53. Frederick - 6.5
54. Cherche - 7.5
55. Saizo - 4
56. Kagero - 4.5
57. Lyn - 7
58. Chrom - 5
59. F!Corrin - 7
60. Azura - 6.5
61. Gunter - 3
62. Camilla - 5.5
63. Azama - 6.5
64. Setsuna - 3.5
65. Stahl - 2.5
66. Lonqu - 3
67. Hinoka - 7.5
68. Oboro - 2.5
69. Beruka - 6
70. Arthur - 2
71. Takumi - 5.5
72. Sakura - 3
73. Olivia - 7
74. Henry - 2
75. Subaki - 4.5
76. Peri - 6.5
77. Niles - 1.5
78. Elise - 7.5
79. Tharja - 5
80. A!Tiki - 8
81. Odin - 1 
82. Effie - 7.5
83. Lucina - 7
84. M!Corrin - 6
85. Ryoma - 5.5
86. Hinata - 4.5
87. Hana - 5.5
88. Laslow - 3
89. Selena - 2
90. Leo - 2
91. Eirika - 5
92. Seliph - 5.5
93. Ephraim - 7
94. Julia - 6
95. Eldigan - Abstain
96. Sanaki - 6.5
97. Reinhardt - 8
98. Olwen - 5.5
99. Lachesis - 3
100. Klein - 4
101. Karel - 6.5
102. Ninian - 7
103. Lucius - 4.5
104. Rebecca - 2.5
105. Priscilla - 4
106. Jaffar - 3.5
107. Alm - 9
108. Lukas - 7.5
109. Clair - 7
110. Faye - 5.5
111. Ike - 6
112. Titania - 3.5
113. Soren - 4
114. Mist - 2.5
115. Celica - 7
116. Mae - 6.5
117. Boey - 3.5
118. Genny - 6
119. Luke - 3.5
120. Katarina - 5.5
121. Athena - 3.5
122. Roderick - 6
123. Gray - 5
124. Saber - 3
125. Mathilda - 3
126. Delthea - 6.5
127. Sonya - 4.5
128. Leon - 6
129. Seth - 2
130. Tana - 7
131. Amelia -8
132. Innes - 6
133. Brave Roy - 6.5
134. Brave Lucina - Abstain
135. Brave Ike - 8
136. Brave Lyn - 8.5
137. Elincia - 7.5
138. Osxar - 6
139. Nephenee - 7
140. Sigurd - 7.5
141. Tailtiu - 4.5
142. Deirdre - 6
143. Ayra - 9
144. Mia - 8
145. Lute - 7.5
146. Dorcas -8
147. Siegbert - 7.5
148. Soleil - 7
149. Shiro - 6.5
150. Rhajat - 7
151. Zelgius - 9.5
152. Micaiah - 8
153. Sothe - 4.5
154. Eirika - 5.5

Ratings I would change in retrospect: Gordin would be a 2.5 and Jeorge a 4, Cain would be a 3, Cecilia would be a 3.5. Linde would be 7. And I'd drop Matthew and Saizo to 3.5. Beruka would be a 7. Caeda I'd rate a 5.5 now that I've been using her at 5 star. Leo I'd bump up to a 3. Nino should be a 6. Hector is a 7.5.

 

Edited July 16, 2018 by Glennstavos

[XRay]

49 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Honestly something I probably should have brought up much earlier if I had thought of it, but with the number of votes we're getting, it might make sense to always toss the highest and lowest scores when averaging (it's a pretty common practice to my knowledge, at least; I do recall the Olympics doing this for things like gymnastics and diving).

What about using medians and skip averages? Even if you toss the highest and lowest, averages can still swing wildly depending the second highest and second lowest scores. Medians can swing too, but not as much. Medians might also be easier to calculate, since if it is just a small data set, you just need to find the middle and skip the calculator.

However, I am not sure if it matters anyway since people are using different scales, with some using ~7 as average while others use 5.

Edited July 16, 2018 by XRay

[Shiki]

23 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

Zelgius didn't count?

Considering BK is not in the regular pool, no.

1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

What I'm saying is, -blade is fucking good.

Yes, that explains why a 2/10 unit scores a 6 while Zelgius (who would score a 8/10 with his kit and stats) should get a -2 for having the same or even less dependency on his team.
How about, no? I agree at least that Odin is not the bottom of the barrel but this is quite frankly ridicilous.

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Honestly something I probably should have brought up much earlier if I had thought of it, but with the number of votes we're getting, it might make sense to always toss the highest and lowest scores when averaging (it's a pretty common practice to my knowledge, at least; I do recall the Olympics doing this for things like gymnastics and diving).

.I don't know if that is really sensible change considering some rounds only have ~5 votes.
Plus I don't think a certain user would appreciate it if his score would get kicked out most of the time.

Edited July 16, 2018 by The Priest

[Zapp Branniglenn]

12 minutes ago, The Priest said:

Considering BK is not in the regular pool, no.

 

So noooone of the seasonals are alts? Or Masked Marth? Or legendary alts? My head is spinning with this definition of alts.

Quote

Plus I don't think a certain user would appreciate it if his score would get kicked out most of the time.

If this were a retroactive change then yeah it'd be a bummer to see all my ratings go down the drain lol. But now that we're rating post launch units that are consistently above average my ratings have slipped finely into the average. Because I knew we'd eventually get to the 7-9.5s

[DehNutCase]

13 minutes ago, The Priest said:

Yes, that explains why a 2/10 unit scores a 6 while Zelgius (who would score a 8/10 with his kit and stats) should get a -2 for having the same or even less dependency on his team.
How about, no? I agree at least that Odin is not the bottom of the barrel but this is quite frankly ridicilous.

.I don't know if that is really sensible change considering some rounds only have ~5 votes.
Plus I don't think a certain user would appreciate it if his score would get kicked out most of the time.

Base kit and stats is precisely the thing, here.

As supports get better, -blade gets better. Before, +3/4/4/4 was already fucking amazing, even at the cost of an unit-turn (Eirika with Rally Def). Now, we have Ninian for 4/4/4/4 by trading her action turn for her partner's.

 

-Blade went from a 24 MT weapon (3/4/0/4) to a 29 MT weapon (4/4/4/4), consistently, and from a 28 MT weapon (3/4/4/4) to a 35 MT (6/4/6/6) weapon if you sacrifice a unit-turn for it. And the sacrifice this time is even less restrictive, seeing how you can choose either the receiver or the giver to use up their turn.

16 MT DC, on the other hand, stayed exactly where it was.

 

The difference between Odin's BST and Zelgius' BST is 26. The difference in the MT of their weapons is 35 - 16 = 19 in Odin's best case, or 29-16 = 13 in the usual case. Added to the fact that Odin has the more optimized defensive spread for single round combats (he tanks physical and magic the same), and their combat performance gets very close.

 

 

That said, I don't mind if you drop my scores. Under the scoring system where only the scores that are within a certain range of each of gets counted, what I need to do to change a unit's scores is to type this stuff in FEH general chat and Q&A rather than here. As unit and team understanding increases in general, the scores will naturally shift closer to the 'correct' score.

It's a bit unfortunate, since I had figured this was the place to share how I understand units and see how other people understand units, but that's neither here nor there.

 

I'm not saying I'm always right---I argue a lot with Ice Dragon precisely because we're often wrong about some things---but we argue to try and arrive at the correct answer, and increase our own understandings of the game.

[Shiki]

4 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

So noooone of the seasonals are alts? Or Masked Marth? Or legendary alts? My head is spinning with this definition of alts.

What have seasonal or legendary alts have to do in a discussion with only regular units? We didn't get to that point yet. Masked Marth is the same case as BK (in fact I'm probably throwing out MM considering she is 1:1 Lucina).

Eirika is the first alt of a regular unit in the summoning pool while Zelgius is not. Don't make it out to be more confusing than it is.

[Simpsons138]

12 minutes ago, The Priest said:

We're entering the age of alts. REJOICE!

And one banner is full of alts, , #spoileralert

• Sothe: Great offensive stat in 36/33, the highest attack stat on daggers,  a weapon that not only debuffs all enemies stats by 4 if they're within range, but also buffs himself and nearby allies by 4, instant Blade tome boost, with Life and Death he can easily get to 58 attack if is +Atk, but can be workable with other skills like Fury and such, Glimmer is already a good special for him to use, but giving him Luna or Draconic Aura would be a good idea, his main gimmick is being a glass cannon, his defenses are pretty bad even before equipping Life and Death, his HP is average, but he won't survive if he gets one-shot or doubled with Brave weapons or Daggerbreaker, the latter one is rare so you don't have to worry about it, but if you give him Desperation on player phase or Vantage or enemy phase and he has his special ready, he will destroy anyone completely, 7/10

 

• Eirika: Sacrificing some bulk to get more attack, be mounted and have usage of magic, she can definitely do a lot of damage if is on the Desperation range, WHICH SHE ALREADY COMES WITH!!!! Along with Swift Sparrow and a weapon that will, with Swift Sparrow, instantly give her +7 Attack and Speed on the player phase on enemies with max HP, you do not want to get hit by Eirika, even blue units are afraid of her, unless they are pretty bulky, her defenses are lower than regular Eirika, so she can't take physical encounters, especially against Dragons and DC users, and with that low HP, even mages can take care of here if they have the correct amount of attack, but if you need a mounted mage, give them a Blade tome and abuse of many different buffs, Eirika is the one for you, 8/10

[Alexmender]

Sothe. His stats focus on Atk/Spd and being low everywhere else. He is pretty straightfoward, his job is to deal tons of damage which is further emphasized with his base kit. His high Atk and relatively above average Spd help him do his job fairly well BUUUT he's a dagger unit, that alone gimps him extremely hard despite his good offensive spread. His Prf weapon, Peshkatz is more of a defensive tool as it lowers the enemies stats by 4 while increasing Sothe and his teammates stats by the same amount, that's a very good weapon for mixed phase teams in which Sothe covers the Player Phase, sadly the weapon effects kick in after combat so Sothe's unable to use it's effects without a dancer or trying to tank during Enemy Phase, which he shouldn't even try with his pathetic bulk. In summary, Sothe has a very good offensive spread but his class holds him back heavily making him just an above average unit, but he's top tier in the class. 

Rating: 6.5/10

Anamnesis Eirika whom I'll refer as Eirikalter from now on as I've used that name for months. Her focus is in Spd while still having a passable Atk stat and being very low everywhere else. Here we have it folks, the offensive red mage cavalier that people asked for and turned out to be quite the controversial character. Unlike Leo, Eirikalter is a unit that doesn't care about trying to be a tank, instead she focuses on going in and nuking her target. Her Prf weapon, Gleipnir, shows this as it grants her +3 Atk/Spd when she attacks an enemy that is at full health, when combined with her default Swift Sparrow this grants Eirikalter a very noticeable +7 Atk/Spd during her first round of combat. This makes her a very self sufficient unit but that's not the end of things. In a Horse Emblem team she can opt to use Rauðrblade+ instead to do insane amounts of damage. Now, Eirikalter has two glaring weaknesses. The first comes from her pathetic bulk which makes her prone to being killed during the enemy phase and also if she's unable of ORKO/OHKOing a target that is able of retaliating. The second is that her scoring potential is extremely low and she needs to take a boon in Hp in order to fix this a bit, also being a red cavalry makes her compete with more universally useful sword cavs like Ares/Sigurd/Siegbert. All in all, Eirikalter is a very strong unit when played properly and doesn't really need that much support to do her job, the problem is that her job isn't very requested these days due to how bulky the meta is which makes it very hard for her to nuke the enemy.

Rating: 6/10

[Ice Dragon]

3 hours ago, The Priest said:

We're entering the age of alts. REJOICE!

喜べ！

 

1 hour ago, Glennstavos said:

Shouldn't you, like, be participating in this thread before trying to change how we do it? Few of us have experience with max merged units and the highest echelons of the arena. Just seems odd you pop in, say something, and leave without ever giving a score. Not trying to be confrontational, just wondering why you read the thread if you're not interested enough to give a score.

I have a pretty busy work schedule right now due to impending deadlines, so my participation would be far too spotty. I'm currently reserving any time I have to spend doing research on arguing with DehNutCase.

It doesn't help that I'm often away on weekends.

 

1 hour ago, XRay said:

What about using medians and skip averages?

The scores are always multiples of 0.5, which results in a lot of unnecessary ties (let's face it, as much as more granularity isn't important, it's certainly more interesting).

 

1 hour ago, The Priest said:

I don't know if that is really sensible change considering some rounds only have ~5 votes.

Maybe just cut the top and bottom on rounds with 7 or more votes? Either way, there's enough skew simply due to some posters abstaining from voting. Since we don't have a standard metric across voters, if a voter that consistently rates higher than average abstains, the resulting rating will end up lower than it "should", and if a voter that consistently rates lower than average abstains, the resulting rating with end up higher than it "should".

 

1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

It's a bit unfortunate, since I had figured this was the place to share how I understand units and see how other people understand units, but that's neither here nor there.

I think most of The Priest's and my objections to your methodology are due to the fact that you consider a massive amount of stat bonuses to be trivial to achieve and basically a given, but that you find Armor March somehow too difficult to maintain.

 

You're doing several things in your logic when you compared Odin to Zelgius earlier:

1. You consider running Armor March is mutually exclusive to running a buffer. This is clear where you mention that the most support you can receive is +6 to one defensive stat in addition to Armor March. You aren't even taking into account the possibility that you run Armor March yourself and therefore receive +6 to two defensive stats from the other armor. Or from any of the other two members of team. Teams are teams of four units, not three units with no support capability whatsoever and one support unit.
2. You are considering Ninian or Azura plus a mixed team composition (eligible for Tactic skills) as somehow less of a restriction than running any other one armor.
3. You assume that armors have trouble running mixed-phase builds when Armor March exists and requires comparable or less restrictive team building and teammate requirements.
4. You gave Zelgius Quick Riposte in his B slot. When Vengeful Fighter exists.
5. You're ignoring all of Zelgius's other builds, such as Slaying Edge + Quickened Pulse (+ Wrath) because Black Luna is the thing that really sets Zelgius apart from other units in the game.
6. You're insisting on keeping Alondite as his weapon when Slaying Edge, Wo Dao, and Brave Sword typically have better performance.
7. Armors do not cost another unit's turn to attack on player phase unless you utterly suck at gluing two units together. And since you're having Odin take Hone buffs, you're clearly not assuming that you utterly suck at gluing two units together. I have no trouble keeping my fliers glued together for Hone Flier buffs, so you should have no trouble keeping your armors glued together for Armor March.
   1. Also, Guidance doesn't cost you a turn if you think a turn in advance and place your flier where it needs to be.

[Hilda]

14 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Odin doesn't fly. The best my 10/40 Odin can do with one support without Def/Res Link is +6/6/4/4, which is a dancer with Atk Tactic, Spd Tactic, and Geyser Dance, and that sacrifices a mobility passive B skill on the dancer.

With +6/6/4/4, this 10/40 Odin is worse than Linde with refined Aura with +4/0/0/0.

Actual Odin with +6/6/4/4 performs comparably to 10/40 Odin with +6/6/6/6, and actual Odin with +6/6/4/0 performs comparably to 10/40 Odin with +6/6/4/4.

 

I'm not sure how you're pulling that one off with only 36 Def (25 base Def + 4 Def from merges + 1 Def from stat reallocation + 6 Def from buffs). Literally every red unit in the game that doesn't have a noodle arm (Caeda, Fir, etc.) hits him for at least 10 damage without a Special (57 Atk), never mind any blue, green, or colorless units.

 

No, that's not even close. Defensively, Sophia runs Raudhrowl+ [Def], which gives her +6 more Def, +4 more Res and +2 more HP if you put 2 potatoes next to her, not to mention she can afford to sacrifice her Atk for more Def from her nature (and +Def actually gives her more wins against red and colorless at negligible cost to her green match-ups). Also worth mentioning that I'm using +0/0/6/6 buffs for Sophia, which is super easy (a single unit with dual Tactic or two stacks of Spur Def/Res). Adding an Atk buff is just icing on the cake.

Sure, Sophia's player-phase performance is beyond abysmal, but having a superlative enemy phase and an abysmal player phase is better than having a poor enemy phase and a barely competent support-hungry player phase.

Owl tomes are sure the way to go for enemy phase. But Boey can run Litrblade very competent in enemyphase and pushes him to okeish playerphase. He has the defensiv bulk with Close counter and Fortress def seal and Litrblade patches up his attack weakness he suffers from. I run him with Litrblade, Close counter, QR, Tactic skill and Fortress defense and he excells against melees incredibly good. obviously he sucks against anyhting magic related (as in  red Dragons and mages), due to his bulk he becomes an interesting unit and can initate against units like Myrrh and double them and thus ORKO her on playerphase. So far he is the only mage where Litrblade works as enemyphase in a Team with all Tactic skills.
Other mages just cant run this set because they usually trade in some Def Points or SPD points for a mediocre Res stat, which is kinda useless when you go all out Defense. Robin comes close, but again he trades DEF and SPD for 4 points more of RES which is kinda pointless with his RES stat

I did run him for a long time with his Owltome, but i am more satisfied with the Litrblade result and the new Tactic skills.

[XRay]

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

my participation would be far too spotty

My participation has been spotty too, but I do not think you have to always be here to give a rating.

Just curious, if you were to give a rating, how would you approach it? Some go for a gut/experience based approach while others go for a more numbers based approach. I am guess I am in the more extreme end and try to quantify everything. I thought it would be easier that way until I saw how many kinks there are.

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

It doesn't help that I'm often away on weekends.

You just have to reject your social life and join us.

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

let's face it, as much as more granularity isn't important, it's certainly more interesting

Aesthetically, I think increments of 0.25s look nicer and neater though.

[DehNutCase]

5 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

I think most of The Priest's and my objections to your methodology are due to the fact that you consider a massive amount of stat bonuses to be trivial to achieve and basically a given, but that you find Armor March somehow too difficult to maintain.

 

You're doing several things in your logic when you compared Odin to Zelgius earlier:

1. You consider running Armor March is mutually exclusive to running a buffer. This is clear where you mention that the most support you can receive is +6 to one defensive stat in addition to Armor March. You aren't even taking into account the possibility that you run Armor March yourself and therefore receive +6 to two defensive stats from the other armor. Or from any of the other two members of team. Teams are teams of four units, not three units with no support capability whatsoever and one support unit.
2. You are considering Ninian or Azura plus a mixed team composition (eligible for Tactic skills) as somehow less of a restriction than running any other one armor.
3. You assume that armors have trouble running mixed-phase builds when Armor March exists and requires comparable or less restrictive team building and teammate requirements.
4. You gave Zelgius Quick Riposte in his B slot. When Vengeful Fighter exists.
5. You're ignoring all of Zelgius's other builds, such as Slaying Edge + Quickened Pulse (+ Wrath) because Black Luna is the thing that really sets Zelgius apart from other units in the game.
6. You're insisting on keeping Alondite as his weapon when Slaying Edge, Wo Dao, and Brave Sword typically have better performance.
7. Armors do not cost another unit's turn to attack on player phase unless you utterly suck at gluing two units together. And since you're having Odin take Hone buffs, you're clearly not assuming that you utterly suck at gluing two units together. I have no trouble keeping my fliers glued together for Hone Flier buffs, so you should have no trouble keeping your armors glued together for Armor March.
   1. Also, Guidance doesn't cost you a turn if you think a turn in advance and place your flier where it needs to be.

I find armor march difficult to maintain because it means I'm running a team with 2 armors in it. This is very much a personal preference, and I acknowledge that.

 

Basically I think of teams like this:

More mobility helps against every single matchup---if the enemy is a mobile team, you can efficiently dispatch them in one turn or plan easier hit and runs. If the enemy team is immobile, more mobility means you can get away with using buffs skills that are difficult, positioning wise, to use. Like ally supports.

More combat, on the other hand, only helps if that combat is relevant. The most extreme case is probably something like a 3 green and, I don't know, Effie or someone else Reinhardt ORKOs. After the Effie goes down, Reinhardt's combat is completely irrelevant unless I need him to finish off a green someone else weakened. It doesn't really matter how much better his combat gets until the point where he can ORKO greens---which would make him obviously busted to everyone, not just people who value mobility. But he'll still contribute quite a lot with his 3 move for buffing duties and his assist slot for ferrying people around.

That's my issue with Zelgius compared to Amelia. Amelia's combats are already nearly as good as it gets---giving Amelia more combat doesn't fix the reason I scored her low. Like, imagine Reinhardt with 5 move. I'm not going to score him higher if he got 6 move instead, because any issues he has would not be mobility at that point.

 

1, Odin also has a C-slot free. He can also run things like Atk Wave or Speed Wave, or, I don't know, Savage Blow or something.

2, I mean, yeah, I do. Personally I think it's a lot easier to slot in a flying dancer---basically the best support type in the game as of now---than armors. I see your point, though.

3, The problem with running 2 armor is similar to running 2 dancers, diminishing returns. (Mind, running 2 dancers is probably worse than running 2 armors, since the second dancer not only makes the first dancer less useful, relatively speaking, it also makes the first dancer absolutely weaker because it's another target that can't be danced.)

The units I rate around 6-7 belong in two types:

They're either units that do everything, but do them only at a mediocre level---this is Odin, Mathilda, and the like. Or they're units that do only one thing, but do it nearly as good as possible. Armors are the second type.

This means, if I bring an armor in, it's to use their strength (absurd combat) in a team that needs their absurd combat. A team that already has an armor in it usually doesn't need any more combat, considering how damn good the best armors are at it.

4, He was running Warding Breath. It was just a lazy ass set I threw together to get some numbers, same for Odin. Practically speaking Odin should be running Desperation QR for a mix-phased set. Fair points about how Zelgius could be better, combat-wise, though. It's just that combat is the one thing Zelgius doesn't need, anymore, in terms of how I rate units.

Remember that old Offense/Bulk/Counter-kill/Mobility/Utility thing? Zelgius already scores A/A/A in the first three categories, making him better at killing things doesn't fix the other two.

 

7, Hone buffs are easier to take the more mobility you already have, same for armor march. Except armor march is the thing you're carrying to give you mobility in the first place. I'll agree that it's not particularly hard to keep up once it's already active, assuming your enemies are very polite about positioning.

Odin's still ranged even after armors get +1 move, and this makes positioning easier---he has to move less squares to attack, and, consequently, his supports have to move less squares to keep up.

 

Regarding Guidance. That's spending a skill-slot for mobility, Odin can have his supports spend that skill slot for more stats.

 

It's minor, but I'd rather start with good mobility and get stats via skill-slots and positioning than vice versa. It helps when you're in a rush (enemy team puts you on a timer due to peculiarities of the map---from what I've heard the two vertical bridges map gives people trouble, and I assume that's because, if you don't get to the middle island before the other team, positioning gets hard), and it makes AI manipulation easier.

I didn't demonstrate it in my arena binge, but my solution to armor teams in the Oasis map would've been to kill them 1 armor at a time by taking advantage of the fact that 2 units can't be in the same square. This means, if you're mobile enough to be at the exact opposite end of the map, two armors chasing the same unit would still split up, because they have different shortest paths. Armors don't rally if none of my units are in range to hit them after the rally target moves, so they'll just walk in one by one.

 

I'll admit that how good units are at AI manipulation probably shouldn't be factored into scoring, though, considering how much effort you need to go through to learn it.

Edited July 17, 2018 by DehNutCase

[Xenomata]

What in gods name is going on in this thread? I'm just here to judge units I both use and don't use.

Sothe

Spoiler

As a Dagger user, he is Kagero with far less Resistance, and most of it getting put into HP. Meanwhile, his Attack and Speed are both one point better than Kagero, and his Defense is the same. This means good Attack, decent Speed, and bad Defense, while having an HP stat that at least lets him take a hit, as opposed to what Kagero had.

Sothe was the first Dagger released after the upgrades given to Daggers thanks to the refinery, but Peshkats doesn't really look like it cared, because it has the worst defense/resistance lowering effect of all Daggers, and has an overall lower debuff total than Smoke Dagger refined. It does triggers all 4 Hones and Fortifies on Sothe and allies within 2 spaces though, so it's more like an odd combination of Smoke Dagger's spectrum debuffing effect and Rogue Daggers self and ally buffing. Meanwhile, the rest of his base kit is solid and worth keeping, with Glimmer being quick and easy damage, Life and Death being both available at 4* thanks to Sothe and also being good with his glass cannon stats, and Spur Atk/Spd being a good dual spur to give to an ally.

Sothe, for the most part, only really needs an Assist and B passive. I found that Swordbreaker works just fine since he does have problems outspeeding most of them before and even after Peshkats triggers it's buff and debuff, but other options would be Escape Route/Wings of Mercy, for teleporting to the right spot to get the most out of Peshkats, Desperation since he is an offensive unit, and even a Sweep skill would work okay if all you want is the buff/debuff effect of Peshkats. Peshkats itself can also be replaced, now that offensive daggers are more common. Your options are the Barb Shuriken for more Glimmers more often, Lethal Carrot for stronger Glimmers, and Starfish for not having to pack Desperation 3 in the B slot.

Sothe doesn't have very good defensive ability, even if you were to go with Fury instead of Life and Death to improve his defensive stats after Peshkats (in which case it becomes below average both physically and magically), and he is among the more vulnerable to RavenAdepts. While Peshkats has a good effect in it, it doesn't actually do much good for Sothe on the first round of combat, essentially being an Atk forged Silver Dagger with a much weaker Dagger effect. As an Infantry unit, he also has no movement strengths or weaknesses compared to the two Daggers who overall do better than him, those being Spring Kagero and Summer Linde.

Overall, he's a good dagger. He's become outclassed, but that's not necessarily a bad thing considering how Daggers have been since game launch...

Rating: 7/5/10 Peshkats comes with a good support effect that also improves Sothe's own combat ability, which is already pretty solid to begin with. Sothe can also run with more offensive daggers for more desirable results, and does slightly better overall than Kagero. He does have defensive weaknesses though, and is still unable to take many hits before going down, and has inferior movement to HatF!Kagero and Summer Linde.

 

Anamnesis Eirika

Spoiler

The Red Mage Cavalry who we needed in the game from launch.

Eirika sports average Attack and good Speed, while foregoing most of her defensive ability, being below-average HP and really meh Defense and Resistance, neither high enough to let Eirika take many hits.

Gleipnir has the effect of giving Eirika +3 Atk/Spd if the enemy has 100% hp, and Swift Sparrow by default means she will usually outspeed the foe, but the Resistance +3 effect feels very useless on her given her Resistance is not high enough by default to even trigger Ploys after Gleipnir is equipped. Desperation 3 also means she will get both hits in before the enemy can retaliate. Red Tome EXP is useless in combat, and Rally Atk/Spd is one of the more elusive Dual Rallies, and is worth keeping around for a rainy day.

Her default kit is mostly good from the start (don't even bother learning Red Tome EXP), but Eirika being the more offensive of the two available Red Tome Mages opens her up to more options than Leo has available, specifically Rauðrblade. She not only has the speed to use it, but also starts with most of the skillset needed to run it, though Swift Sparrow can be subbed for Life and Death. On a Cavalry team, Eirika can easily become a very deadly force. As for Specials, Glimmer, Moonbow and Luna.

The bad is, plainly, that her defensive ability is lacking. It gets better under Fortify Cavalry, but it remains meh overall. Gleipnir's Res +3 effect really doesn't do anything to improve it either. If what you want is Defensive play, then stick to Leo.

But if you want a very fast and potentially deadly ally, then Anamnesis Eirika is just who you need.

Rating: 8/10 Eirika can prove deadly on her horse, given how high her speed is by default, no matter which weapon you give her. Her power exceeds expectations behind Rauðrblade, and remains steady yet still deadly behind Gleipnir. She doesn't want to be taking too many hits though, and just wants to take as much damage as necessary to reach Desperation range. Too many solid hits and she won't be long for the world, so you should be the one inflicting said solid hits.

Oh yeah, I finally learned how to do Alt codes, and I'm finally bothering to use the proper ð instead of saying dh all the time. It looks much better typing Rauðrblade instead of Raudhrblade.

[Ice Dragon]

19 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

The problem with running 2 armor is similar to running 2 dancers, diminishing returns.

No, it really isn't. How is gaining access to Armor March a diminished return? In the current state of the game, armors always want to be deployed two at a time because the marginal returns of gaining Armor March are so enormous.

If anything, armors are the movement type that have the greatest marginal returns on adding additional members with the same movement type. Due to the fact that they naturally clump together due to 2 movement range and a reliance on Armor March, they are perfectly suited for stacking Drive-type skills that cannot be negated by any means.