Intermediate mode between Casual and Classic?

[Von Ithipathachai]

So when deciding what mechanics I wanted to include in my Fire Emblem: Ascension project, I knew from the start I wanted the player to be able to choose between Casual and Classic Mode.  But after some time, I began to contemplate the possibility of a third option in between the two.

The idea is inspired by Thracia 776's Fatigue system, in which characters who have built up too much Fatigue are rendered temporarily unusable for one chapter.  While I don't like Fatigue, I do believe the idea of characters being temporarily out of commission from combat-related causes could be put to decent use elsewhere.

How Intermediate Mode would work is as follows:  When a character is defeated in battle, they are unable to be used in the next chapter as their wounds are too serious.  That character would end up spending that next chapter recovering.  But once the chapter after the next comes around, they'll have fully healed and can be used once again.

Making the jump straight from not having permadeath to having it can be intimidating, so I thought maybe a mode like this could help players having this issue make the transition.  This mode would be more penalizing for character deaths than regular Casual Mode, but still less punishing than Classic Mode.

So what do you guys think?

Edited May 14, 2018 by Von Ithipathachai

[Interdimensional Observer]

It sounds like a fair compromise. Missing out on a chapter b/c severe injury could cost the unit serious usability and EXP gain (which impacts usability), so it'd keep someone from being too reckless. Adding a Gold cost, like 1000 per "death", would be the only other thing I could think of which you could as a penalty. FE12 had such a gold penalty for "deaths" during its lengthy prologue, but that depending on your views might be a little too harsh.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I think the "miss one extra battle to recover from your wounds" is a great compromise idea. You could make units have to sit out even more time if you combined it with the gold idea.

A gold cost to heal units faster would also be a decent idea but it would have to (a) be significant enough to make you care, and (b) scale with the unit's level so it isn't too expensive early / too cheap later.

[The Roger The Paladin]

It's funny, I read the thread "title" and thought "how can you have someone half-die?". Didn't even think about the possibility of just having temporary injuries.
As ideas go, I think it's not only sound, but good enough to actually be implemented in an official release. Shame we don't have anyone from IS monitoring the board for ideas.

[Jedi]

I don't think we need a 4th option personally, go for broke either direction, don't settle for half-assing it.

I'd much rather get an Ironman mode to be the opposite of Phoenix if we had to get a 4th option.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Jedi

[Florete]

Honestly, I'd prefer if that's just how casual itself worked.

[Slumber]

2 minutes ago, Florete said:

Honestly, I'd prefer if that's just how casual itself worked.

Yeah, adding in a mode between Casual and Classic seems like overkill. This one seems like it'd be a solid replacement to casual altogether.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

I'd add "fatigue" similar to XCOM, but not as a separate mode.
Hurt and fallen units at the end of a Chapter need time in terms of chapters to get their HP fully restored. 
The lower the %rate of and unit's HP, the longer it will be suspended.

[Light Strategist]

Why not have them retreat as though it's Casual mode up to a certain number of times. Every time they retreat, their stats take a temporary hit of increasing incrememnts and too many retreats is a full on death. The idea of them retreating but being able to redeploy is basically them suffering long-term injuries but still trying on the battlefield despite their injuries. Further mistakes will lead to them getting killed outright.

This is without me having read the comments thus far though.

EDIT:

How Intermediate Mode would work is as follows:  When a character is defeated in battle, they are unable to be used in the next chapter as their wounds are too serious.  That character would end up spending that next chapter recovering.  But once the chapter after the next comes around, they'll have fully healed and can be used once again.

Making the jump straight from not having permadeath to having it can be intimidating, so I thought maybe a mode like this could help players having this issue make the transition.  This mode would be more penalizing for character deaths than regular Casual Mode, but still less punishing than Classic Mode.

Okay, yeah. Similar general idea. Perhaps combining the two would be wise?

Edited May 14, 2018 by Light Strategist

[Von Ithipathachai]

4 minutes ago, Light Strategist said:

Why not have them retreat as though it's Casual mode up to a certain number of times. Every time they retreat, their stats take a temporary hit of increasing incrememnts and too many retreats is a full on death. The idea of them retreating but being able to redeploy is basically them suffering long-term injuries but still trying on the battlefield despite their injuries. Further mistakes will lead to them getting killed outright.

This is without me having read the comments thus far though.

I thought about this too, but had trouble deciding how many times a unit should be able to retreat before permanently dying.

[Moblin Major General]

7 hours ago, Jedi said:

I'd much rather get an Ironman mode to be the opposite of Phoenix if we had to get a 4th option.

If we did that, i would make it so that should the lord character die, the game could still be played, so long as at least one unit lives. Iron man runs in FE usually have people sack units in place of a lord death, so why not remove that stipulation?

[NinjaMonkey]

5 hours ago, Slumber said:

This one seems like it'd be a solid replacement to casual altogether.

The whole point of Casual mode is to attract fans to the series. This sounds like it would do the opposite.

Casual mode is fine as it is, and it seems to me that the only people who disagree are the people who don't use it in the first place.

[Von Ithipathachai]

3 minutes ago, NinjaMonkey said:

The whole point of Casual mode is to attract fans to the series. This sounds like it would do the opposite.

Casual mode is fine as it is, and it seems to me that the only people who disagree are the people who don't use it in the first place.

Hence why I proposed this mode existing alongside Casual and Classic as a stepping stone.

Obvoiously Phoenix Mode would have to go, since at that point you might as well just look up a Let's Play on YouTube, if you can find one.

[Ertrick36]

At first I thought it may be a good idea, but...

I'd honestly rather the "middle of the road" option let you just save mid-battle like Casual Mode.

Otherwise, I'm with Jedi in that I'd rather the 4th option be essentially Ironman.  As someone who has made the jump from Casual to Classic, I don't think this mode would've done me much good.  I figure that you play through a game entirely on Casual your first run, you should have enough knowledge about how the game works to be able to confidently attempt Classic.  I mean... I'm always for more options, and I wouldn't push back if IS announced this mode, but I just feel like it wouldn't be of much use.  Or perhaps I'm not as open-minded and understanding of other people's perspectives as I'd like to think I am, though I never saw or heard anyone who said they couldn't make the jump from Casual to Classic.

5 minutes ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

Obvoiously Phoenix Mode would have to go, since at that point you might as well just look up a Let's Play on YouTube, if you can find one.

I actually agree with this, though.  Phoenix Mode is just another entry among a sleuth of pointless "baby modes" that Nintendo has been trying to push recently for no reason.  It especially makes little sense since these games are targeted towards teenagers and up, and I'd have to assume the majority of that demographic would at least be competent enough to play on Casual.

I only use Phoenix Mode to build Einherjar units quickly in Fates, and even then the game's easy enough at that point that you could feasibly do that same task on Casual instead.

[NinjaMonkey]

6 minutes ago, Ertrick36 said:

Phoenix Mode is just another entry among a sleuth of pointless "baby modes" that Nintendo has been trying to push recently for no reason.  It especially makes little sense since these games are targeted towards teenagers and up, and I'd have to assume the majority of that demographic would at least be competent enough to play on Casual.

Except the reasoning behind Phoenix Mode was that people were reportedly struggling with Awakening even on Casual Mode, so clearly your assumptions are wrong.

[Magical Glace]

I personally like the idea of a sort of three strikes and you’re out system, a character can come back casual style twice, but the third time, dead means dead.

[Hawkwing]

I like the idea, although I wonder what kind of effect grinding will have if the next game has it. Say, when waiting for your best unit to recover after an unfortunate critical, instead of going to the next level without them (or you don't want to pay the fine for bringing them back immediately) you could do one of the grinding levels to help train up your weaker units. Hard to tell if that's a good or a bad thing. If the game doesn't have grinding, then the player would be incited to use units they otherwise wouldn't have, which could either change the players perception of a unit for the better, or screw them over.

If they do add this, then I think they should also add a few ironman modes. Something like an "Ironman" mode where the game constantly autosaves, so all character deaths are final and can't be undone through resetting, and a "perfectionist" mode where any death causes a game-over, which is more of a convenience for those who have this play-style than anything else.

[Von Ithipathachai]

29 minutes ago, Hawkwing said:

I like the idea, although I wonder what kind of effect grinding will have if the next game has it. Say, when waiting for your best unit to recover after an unfortunate critical, instead of going to the next level without them (or you don't want to pay the fine for bringing them back immediately) you could do one of the grinding levels to help train up your weaker units. Hard to tell if that's a good or a bad thing. If the game doesn't have grinding, then the player would be incited to use units they otherwise wouldn't have, which could either change the players perception of a unit for the better, or screw them over.

If they do add this, then I think they should also add a few ironman modes. Something like an "Ironman" mode where the game constantly autosaves, so all character deaths are final and can't be undone through resetting, and a "perfectionist" mode where any death causes a game-over, which is more of a convenience for those who have this play-style than anything else.

Oof.  If FE Switch does have Skirmishes for grinding (it probably will), then yeah, you might as well just have either Casual or Classic.  XD

Grinding completely slipped my mind.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Von Ithipathachai

[Slumber]

5 hours ago, NinjaMonkey said:

Except the reasoning behind Phoenix Mode was that people were reportedly struggling with Awakening even on Casual Mode, so clearly your assumptions are wrong.

I feel like you're not giving the player base enough credit. 

I think if people couldn't get through Awakening, even on Casual... Well, I'll flat-out say that maybe this isn't the right franchise for them. Awakening's a pretty easy game, even on Classic. 

At some point all of these extra modes just make it look like IS thinks the people playing the games are incompetent. Especially Phoenix mode. 

I can't think of many game series, aside from ones aimed at children, that have such a low skill floor as Phoenix Mode FE. 

Edited May 14, 2018 by Slumber

[Griffinlwgameplayer]

I think that putting something between Classic and Casual is a pretty good idea. On one end playing Casual is a good way to avoid the dreaded permadeath and reduces the number of resets to only if something goes horribly, horribly wrong. On the other playing, Casual makes it too easy to accomplish secondary objectives because there is no sacrifice to be made, it allows for reckless moves because dying actually has no consequence. On the other hand, Classic makes you play to the best of your ability, which for people new to the franchise or lacking in strategic savvy can sometimes bee too much.

I think it's a good idea because while it has a consequence for failure that makes you not want to let them be defeated, while at the same time making it significantly less crippling when it does happen

[NinjaMonkey]

3 hours ago, Slumber said:

I feel like you're not giving the player base enough credit.

I'm not doing anything of the sort. That is the reported reason why Phoenix Mode exists, and has nothing to do with me or what I think of the player base.

[Florete]

The biggest problem with classic permadeath, and what keeps some players away, is characters being gone for good. A "three strikes" system doesn't fix this; characters can still be permanently dead. Being out for one map does fix this; characters will never permanently die. As long as skirmishes and the like stick around, the stat loss from not being available for a map can be covered for, but players are still incentivized to not lose anyone in battle, which is the big thing casual players really miss out on.

And I will continue to say that the problem with phoenix mode is not that it's too easy, but that it's too hard. A mode where you can just sit back and enjoy the story (Fates' story quality notwithstanding) is a good thing.

[redtutel]

9 hours ago, Ertrick36 said:

Obvoiously Phoenix Mode would have to go

I used to agree, but then I played Conquest after Awakening and Birthright. It was too exhausting for me, but I wanted to complete both routes, so I ended up using Phoenix mode in the end. So I think there's merit in a Phoenix mode for the sake of people more familiar with the easier games in the series, like Awakening, Birthright, Sacred Stones, and the first 2/3s of Shadows of Valencia. Especially if people are going around demanding Conquest be the new standard for series difficulty.  

[Cute Chao]

I like the idea - sort of a stepping stone between Casual and Classic for those that do want to try Classic but don't fully want to go all in.

I'm a pure Classic gameplayer myself, but I don't mind any of the new modes, since it gives other people more options to play their way.