How good are the tellius games?

[Interdimensional Observer]

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

And Part 4 is forced and pushed through and fills in hefty exposition left and right and relies far too heavily on plot conveniences.

The exposition is mostly heavy in the Tower and at the very start, after 4-P and before the Tower, things range from moderate to fairly light exposition. And actual things happening the main story grind to a halt before you get to the Tower, as you're just traveling there fighting whatever you encounter along the way.

"Plot conveniences" don't really bother me too much.

Spoiler

All the playable characters plus a handful of other characters all of whom end up being playable save Izuka I'm willing to turn a blind eye to. It's a video game, and while it would have been better to have Tormod and friends join Ike's crew much sooner, and to get the Bastian stuff resolved before Part 4, and to have Caineghis and Giffca show up sooner, I'd rather have them playable than not, and Caineghis is just awesome. Clear flaws here, but In the rule of cool, better Volke and Bastian poorly integrated than not at all. Not like it really detracts having them around.

As for Ashera nuking things when Yune couldn't yet there being all that chaos around, I'll just chalk it up to Ashera having Ashunera's "body" and the Tower of Guidance being able to hold power stores or something.

As for the Goddesses not knowing about Hatari, if you want to consider that one. What time did they have to scan the entire world after the Great Flood? Ashera's battle to capture Yune likely began as soon as she got her bearings after the split, which would have occupied all of her time and effort. Then, shortly afterwards, by Lehran and the Three Heroes persuasion, the Goddesses fall asleep. Had they been awake longer and secured the peace of Tellius and had the awake time to do an actual survey of the world, then maybe they'd have found Hatari and anything else that survived the Great Flood.

The Branded not being affected by petrification? I'm sorry to tell you, but that is not a plot convenience if you think it is one. Ashera is a goddess, they make a point it is in the power of goddesses to do this this kind of pinpoint procedure. Shall I demand to know how the not-goddess who practically is one Naga the exact method in excruciating detail of how she crosses the time-space continuum, and if I get no answer call the power utterly contrived? I think Ashera's second judgement, had she pulled it off, would have been recalibrated to work on Branded as well.

I'll agree Part 2 was filler, but it very refreshing, well-written filler by FE standards. And it was something of breather between the more intense Parts 1 and 3. As filler, it isn't as important narratively as the Begnion Arc in PoR, but darned do I like it plotwise despite any issues of Bastian's grand plan and Ludveck being stupid and at least it beats Valm.

I do love my Tellius, and I know it is far from perfect. But if FE is all the worst, then it is, for me personally, not so narratively bad as to be the worst.

 

I will, while critiquing the Blood Pact as evidence that IS has issues writing grey causes and grey conflicts, nonetheless state that the reason behind it is not terrible. By the "reason", I mean having Micaiah/Daein fight for a cause it does not believe in against its will. While making Ike vs. Micaiah grey would have been ideal, making it white vs. white shackled + black shackler wasn't a terrible idea. The issue with how the Blood Pact did this, is that it lacks any real explanation as to how it works, and the concept of targeting a nationality and randomly killing an increasing number of people from that country day after day is absurd.

[Silver-Haired Maiden]

12 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

While that is true, RD's faults is how the situation in Crimea being Part 2 as a whole, is ultimately just filler, because it actually plays zero roles to the rest of the story, unlike the other parts. And Part 4 is forced and pushed through and fills in hefty exposition left and right and relies far too heavily on plot conveniences.

Actually I've mentioned before my issues with part 2.

I actually recommended some changes to it, like making it a series of small conflicts between Crimea and Daein. Aggressions are being inflamed by Ludveck and Izuka for the dual purpose of making Elincia look like a bad queen and further destabilizing Daein to make it easier for Begnion to control. Elincia, Micaiah, and Pelleas are trying to keep the fighting from getting worse while also needing to protect their people. They temporarily join forces when they discover the plot and while Ludveck is captured, Izuka escapes after convincing Pelleas to sign the blood pact (or change that somehow but anyway).

[omegaxis1]

12 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

All the playable characters plus a handful of other characters all of whom end up being playable save Izuka I'm willing to turn a blind eye to. It's a video game, and while it would have been better to have Tormod and friends join Ike's crew much sooner, and to get the Bastian stuff resolved before Part 4, and to have Caineghis and Giffca show up sooner, I'd rather have them playable than not, and Caineghis is just awesome. Clear flaws here, but In the rule of cool, better Volke and Bastian poorly integrated than not at all. Not like it really detracts having them around.

As for Ashera nuking things when Yune couldn't yet there being all that chaos around, I'll just chalk it up to Ashera having Ashunera's "body" and the Tower of Guidance being able to hold power stores or something.

As for the Goddesses not knowing about Hatari, if you want to consider that one. What time did they have to scan the entire world after the Great Flood? Ashera's battle to capture Yune likely began as soon as she got her bearings after the split, which would have occupied all of her time and effort. Then, shortly afterwards, by Lehran and the Three Heroes persuasion, the Goddesses fall asleep. Had they been awake longer and secured the peace of Tellius and had the awake time to do an actual survey of the world, then maybe they'd have found Hatari and anything else that survived the Great Flood.

The Branded not being affected by petrification? I'm sorry to tell you, but that is not a plot convenience if you think it is one. Ashera is a goddess, they make a point it is in the power of goddesses to do this this kind of pinpoint procedure. Shall I demand to know how the not-goddess who practically is one Naga the exact method in excruciating detail of how she crosses the time-space continuum, and if I get no answer call the power utterly contrived? I think Ashera's second judgement, had she pulled it off, would have been recalibrated to work on Branded as well.

I absolutely will not forgive only the playable characters and the enemy villains being, in the end, avoiding the fate. It's like tying up all enemy loose ends and having only the playable characters survive. 

Or the fact that Yune is stating that her powers have waned because she was asleep for so long, but Ashera never seems to run out of power despite having been performing a judgment beam, mass blessings even at a weaker amount, and then endless revivals, even if they are just the body without the souls. She has basically had no limits to her power and everything is just for the sake of convenience to give the player difficulty or something.

No, I don't consider the Hatari an issue, because it's clear that even Ashunera is by no means omniscient, but I would have liked an explanation as to whether they really knew the other continents had sunk. Did they send ships or fliers to scout? Hatari is on Tellius, but separated by a desert. 

No, nothing against the Branded. I can understand that one perfectly fine. But the concept that only the party members and the remaining villainous enemies are able to be out is way too convenient.

12 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I'll agree Part 2 was filler, but it very refreshing, well-written filler by FE standards. And it was something of breather between the more intense Parts 1 and 3. As filler, it isn't as important narratively as the Begnion Arc in PoR, but darned do I like it plotwise despite any issues of Bastian's grand plan and Ludveck being stupid and at least it beats Valm.

3

Don't get me wrong, Part 2 had excellent character development for Elincia, as she goes to the point of being willing to sacrifice someone that's like a sister to her for the sake of not allowing her kingdom to collapse, and shows the struggles of being a ruler, although some of her struggles does come from how she was a princess in secret and not known by the public until rather recently.

But this part could easily have been connected if it was said that Ludveck was manipulated by Sephiran to instigate a civil war and then try to join Begnion or something to fight against the Laguz Alliance so that the continent-wide war can go. So simple, but Ludveck isn't even mentioned or heard from again after his final scene where he's wondering if Elincia will let Lucia die or come back and give him the crown. 

At least the Valm arc had some connection, because Walhart had been trying to stop Grima and the Grimleal, and the Grimleal manipulated Chrom to take care of him for them. 

[Interdimensional Observer]

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Or the fact that Yune is stating that her powers have waned because she was asleep for so long, but Ashera never seems to run out of power despite having been performing a judgment beam, mass blessings even at a weaker amount, and then endless revivals, even if they are just the body without the souls. She has basically had no limits to her power and everything is just for the sake of convenience to give the player difficulty or something.

Being trapped inside the Medallion is not the same as being atop the Tower of Guidance I'd argue. The Medallion is a tiny object used explicitly to confine Yune, to keep her in check. The Tower is less a means to confine Ashera as a comfortable and remote place for her to wade out the Covenant while still in full harmony with her power, even if she doesn't use it because she is sleeping. Lehran's life seals the doors and Yune comments the long climb could drive lesser mortal minds terrified without proper focus so it quite remote. Ashera slept on a bed fit for a goddess, Yune on hardest bedrock. When they wake up in the same morning at the same time, guess who'll be yawning and who'll be ready to rule the world?

The revivals also didn't happen until they got to Sienne, right at the doors of Ashera's stronghold. I don't think she'd be able to do that from afar, too much strain. The blessings she can do while somebody is in Sienne and then she can warp them away and the blessings will hold. Revival from hundreds of miles away, even of just the flesh, would presumably cost so much energy per individual that it just wouldn't be worth it.

 

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

I absolutely will not forgive only the playable characters and the enemy villains being, in the end, avoiding the fate. It's like tying up all enemy loose ends and having only the playable characters survive.

The only villain who survived rather unjustifiably was Izuka, his stuff with Bastian was definitely tying up a loose end that should have been resolved before the judgement, but didn't. A fault of RD.

The Senators were of course turned to stone as explicitly stated, Ashera just happened to think they'd make good goons (maybe Lehran told her they would knowing full well their self-delusional and corrupt nature) until she could fire off a second judgement. 

Why didn't she look for other goons to use? Well Dheg moved his entire country seemingly without needing Ashera's word to do so. Between Goldoa, the Senate, Lehran and the tower spirit defenses, she could have reasonably thought she had enough protection until her second judgement (which probably took weeks to charge up for) was ready. 

Now does Part 4 resolve all loose ties in addition to the Bastian-Izuka one? Yes. But I don't think that is in itself an issue. It is the end of RD, the end of Tellius narratively. And I feel outside of the aforementioned B-I one, it was done fairly organically. Lekain is the leader of enemy of the Laguz, of Sanaki, of Daein, in himself he ties three loose ends together. The Black Knight serves Sephiran the mastermind and he is one of the strongest individuals in Tellius. I wouldn't call the Goldoa stuff so much tying up a loose thread, but as PoR had already said Dheg is a hero of yore, it makes sense he'd fight for Ashera again.

[omegaxis1]

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Being trapped inside the Medallion is not the same as being atop the Tower of Guidance I'd argue. The Medallion is a tiny object used explicitly to confine Yune, to keep her in check. The Tower is less a means to confine Ashera as a comfortable and remote place for her to wade out the Covenant while still in full harmony with her power, even if she doesn't use it because she is sleeping. Lehran's life seals the doors and Yune comments the long climb could drive lesser mortal minds terrified without proper focus so it quite remote. Ashera slept on a bed fit for a goddess, Yune on hardest bedrock. When they wake up in the same morning at the same time, guess who'll be yawning and who'll be ready to rule the world?

The revivals also didn't happen until they got to Sienne, right at the doors of Ashera's stronghold. I don't think she'd be able to do that from afar, too much strain. The blessings she can do while somebody is in Sienne and then she can warp them away and the blessings will hold. Revival from hundreds of miles away, even of just the flesh, would presumably cost so much energy per individual that it just wouldn't be worth it.

 

There is nothing to suggest that what confines you are in is what determines the loss of power. And honestly, nor does being asleep in a tower justify having more power either. Because Yune doesn't even have a physical form either, while Ashera does. If anything, she takes a bird form at best, or possesses Micaiah, but why? And how for that matter? And Yune ultimately attributes her power loss to being sleeping, nothing about where she was sleeping or what did. Meaning that Ashera should in the same position as her in the end. They absolutely don't explain why Ashera is not weakened at all.

Also, that doesn't excuse Ashera being even a danger of being able to fire another judgment beam when she's been reviving everyone by the time they reach her doors, and the mass blessings earlier. We saw Yune give blessings, and it took so much out of her. And charging her power clearly took some time too. So Ashera should also be in the same position in consumption and recharging her powers. 

This is ultimately my issue with Part 4 so much.

It relies so much on convenience and trying to presume that the characters that survived must be the strong, including Tormod for some reason, without identifying exactly what defines strength at all, and then the Branded survive, but then they say that there might be no rules, which means that it is purely convenience.

What could have been done to fix this? Make Yune be the one that actively protected everyone. That her weakened state is not from sleep, but from trying to stop Ashera's judgment and had only been able to prevent everyone from being wiped out, and then actively kept trying to protect others, which prevents her from going full god mode and thus she would be someone that keeps Ike and the others from being beaten, instead of being a convenient blessings giver so that they can have weapons that can actually work.

[Interdimensional Observer]

3 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

and then the Branded survive, but then they say that there might be no rules

You must be referring to this:

Spoiler

Reyson: How unusual. I can’t believe a small child like that has been saved from petrification. Isn’t she the first?
Elincia: King Tibarn, Prince Reyson.
Tibarn: I’d assumed that only the people with a certain amount of power were safe from petrification, but I guessed wrong.
Reyson: I’m wondering if there are even rules at all.

The context is in the case of this is a Base Conversation centered on Amy, who is Branded. The issue is that nobody in the conversation knows she is Branded, nor that the Branded didn't exist when the Goddesses were last awake and hence Ashera didn't target them when she would have otherwise. R, E, and T don't know all the rules of the of the petrification, so they suddenly, and wrongly, rush to the conclusion there were none at all.

11 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Because Yune doesn't even have a physical form either, while Ashera does. If anything, she takes a bird form at best, or possesses Micaiah, but why? And how for that matter?

I'd use this these lines to hint at why:

Spoiler

Ashera:
“Even so, I will not return Yune to this body. She is unstable, and I must be perfect in order to protect this world. It is as I have said, Yune must be destroyed.”

Lehran:
“Ashera, you mustn’t! You cannot survive without your opposite. Please, you must not do this. Your world still needs you.”

Ashera:
“Lehran, you have ever been a wise and kind- hearted child. In deference to you, I will place my faith in your kind one last time. For the next thousand years, I shall sleep as well. When I wake again, I hope it is to a world of peace and order, where all prosper as equals. If I do, then I will know that you have advised me well. I will reward your counsel. I will also allow Yune to return to me. I will once again be the goddess of creation, whole and complete. Ashunera, the Dawn Goddess… The name your ancestors gave me so long ago. I should like to hear it again.”

Sounds to me that when the Ashunera split happened, Ashera got the better deal. Somehow, despite the Goddesses begin able to regenerate their bodies (Ashunera's is not simply a mutated Ashera's since her's is destroyed cinematically at the end of RD), Ashera got to keep the original physical vessel I guess. And having that vessel makes her stronger. Yune could probably generate her own goddess body, but that'd take significant power to create I guess, possession is easier. 

 

For my Medallion vs. Tower sleep interpretation, I'm going to stand by it. Not all sleeps/sealings are the same. There isn't definite evidence in my favor, nor is there real evidence against it.

For soft speculative evidence, Ashera at the least was able to channel her power through the Tower of Guidance for the judgements, it has to have some magical properties in her favor. Lehran's Medallion on the other hand disappears from the plot physically once Yune is freed, despite the fact she could have channeled her strength through it since the heroes had it, suggesting to me it is not beneficial to goddess powers. It could contain her, but as a catalyst for magic it is poor (makes sense, a more reactive Medallion would probably make for a weaker seal).

[omegaxis1]

3 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

You must be referring to this:

  Hide contents

Reyson: How unusual. I can’t believe a small child like that has been saved from petrification. Isn’t she the first?
Elincia: King Tibarn, Prince Reyson.
Tibarn: I’d assumed that only the people with a certain amount of power were safe from petrification, but I guessed wrong.
Reyson: I’m wondering if there are even rules at all.

The context is in the case of this is a Base Conversation centered on Amy, who is Branded. The issue is that nobody in the conversation knows she is Branded, nor that the Branded didn't exist when the Goddesses were last awake and hence Ashera didn't target them when she would have otherwise. R, E, and T don't know all the rules of the of the petrification, so they suddenly, and wrongly, rush to the conclusion there were none at all.

I'd use this these lines to hint at why:

  Hide contents

Ashera:
“Even so, I will not return Yune to this body. She is unstable, and I must be perfect in order to protect this world. It is as I have said, Yune must be destroyed.”

Lehran:
“Ashera, you mustn’t! You cannot survive without your opposite. Please, you must not do this. Your world still needs you.”

Ashera:
“Lehran, you have ever been a wise and kind- hearted child. In deference to you, I will place my faith in your kind one last time. For the next thousand years, I shall sleep as well. When I wake again, I hope it is to a world of peace and order, where all prosper as equals. If I do, then I will know that you have advised me well. I will reward your counsel. I will also allow Yune to return to me. I will once again be the goddess of creation, whole and complete. Ashunera, the Dawn Goddess… The name your ancestors gave me so long ago. I should like to hear it again.”

Sounds to me that when the Ashunera split happened, Ashera got the better deal. Somehow, despite the Goddesses begin able to regenerate their bodies (Ashunera's is not simply a mutated Ashera's since her's is destroyed cinematically at the end of RD), Ashera got to keep the original physical vessel I guess. And having that vessel makes her stronger. Yune could probably generate her own goddess body, but that'd take significant power to create I guess, possession is easier. 

 

For my Medallion vs. Tower sleep interpretation, I'm going to stand by it. Not all sleeps/sealings are the same. There isn't definite evidence in my favor, nor is there real evidence against it.

For soft speculative evidence, Ashera at the least was able to channel her power through the Tower of Guidance for the judgements, it has to have some magical properties in her favor. Lehran's Medallion on the other hand disappears from the plot physically once Yune is freed, despite the fact she could have channeled her strength through it since the heroes had it, suggesting to me it is not beneficial to goddess powers. It could contain her, but as a catalyst for magic it is poor (makes sense, a more reactive Medallion would probably make for a weaker seal).

That honestly still makes you consider that if the case is the strong endure it, that means that ONLY the playable. By what definition is strength defined? Willpower? Physical? Magical? It's all just bullshit convenience that only the playable party can avoid it, and that is ridiculous. And they aren't rushing the conclusion, they are simply wondering what the conclusion is.

Except based on how the context is, Yune and Ashera are both equally as powerful, since Yune was able to make a long battle against her that required her to use her blessings on Altina, Dheginsea, and Soan to fight against her. 

Also, the sleeping in a medallion having an effect and weakening her, wouldn't that ultimately make Ashera suffer the same thing? What happens to one half affects the other half. They are ultimately linked in that regard. Hell, Yune only got sealed into the medallion through seid magic only because she allowed Lehran to, since he assured her that he would be with her so she wasn't alone.