Power creep discussion

[sirmola]

I was looking at the forum achives, and noticed no recent discussion of power creep (not since aira or so). I have noticed lots of people talking about power creep in an "oh, this is obviously happening" sort of way. I happen to agree, but I feel that we should discuss it rather that just mentioning it in passing, if only to give more context to other discussions. What are some examples of the sorts of ways that power creep is occuring? If you don't think power creep is occuring, why not? I personaly think a good example is the new Olivia's weapon's +3 to all stats upon dance obseleting PA!azura's +2 (who i understand was very usable before this.)

Edited July 24, 2018 by sirmola

[Vaximillian]

15 minutes ago, sirmola said:

I personaly think a good example is the new Olivia's weapon's +3 to all stats upon dance obseleting PA!azura's +2 (who i understand was very usable before this.)

The two weapons are identical except that one is an axe and the other is a sword.

[Roflolxp54]

12 minutes ago, sirmola said:

I was looking at the forum achives, and noticed no recent discussion of power creep (not since aira or so). I have noticed lots of people talking about power creep in an "oh, this is obviously happening" sort of way. I happen to agree, but I feel that we should discuss it rather that just mentioning it in passing, if only to give more context to other discussions. What are some examples of the sorts of ways that power creep is occuring? If you don't think power creep is occuring, why not? I personaly think a good example is the new Olivia's weapon's +3 to all stats upon dance obseleting PA!azura's +2 (who i understand was very usable before this.)

Olivia's Skuld is very much a sword clone of Azura's Urdr - both weapons provide a +3 Atk/Spd/Def/Res buff to the Dance/Sing target.

As for powercreep, it doesn't really have much of an effect outside of Arena; pre-CYL BST units are still usable in today's content - there is a reason that "The Reinhardt" has been a meme for quite a while. Arena is a bit of a different story as it's all about armored units and having high SP totals... and, after August 14th, 2018, powercreep would be a bit less prevalent as the Arena meta would be about maximizing the bonus unit's ability to secure kills while the 3 merged armored units would have to have some way to help the bonus unit do that instead of just being score heavyweights.

[sirmola]

2 minutes ago, Roflolxp54 said:

Olivia's Skuld is very much a sword clone of Azura's Urdr - both weapons provide a +3 Atk/Spd/Def/Res buff to the Dance/Sing target.

OOPS. Granted, I never actualy managed to get one...

[Tybrosion]

15 minutes ago, Vaximillian said:

The two weapons are identical except that one is an axe and the other is a sword.

They even have the same naming conventions, in that they’re both names of Norns from Norse mythology.

11 minutes ago, sirmola said:

OOPS. Granted, I never actualy managed to get one...

If you want a weapon that’s been invalidated, try Vidofnir. Safeguard(+) grants +7 Def when the foe initiates. Vidofnir does too...though only if the foe has a sword, lance or axe.

[Vaximillian]

5 minutes ago, Tybrosion said:

They even have the same naming conventions, in that they’re both names of Norns from Norse mythology.

I expect Ninian the Third to get Verðandi the lance.

[Humanoid]

There's probably not a lot of discussion (and the fact that this thread so far has been mostly talking about something else) because I think everyone's pretty much slid over to acceptance. Acceptance that powercreep is a more fundamental aspect to this gacha than the actual gacha mechanic itself. With powercreep and no randomness, there's still the lure for people to spend money. Vice-versa, the game loses its entire business model, as almost all incentive to pull will have gone. Almost, because I guess there are still people who'd pull for a character just for the fondness of that character, but I doubt that'd be a sustainable model.

[Tybrosion]

9 minutes ago, Vaximillian said:

I expect Ninian the Third to get Verðandi the lance.

I could see that happening on Performing Arts: The Encore. I can’t wait for that to be where they debut Nils.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

21 minutes ago, Tybrosion said:

They even have the same naming conventions, in that they’re both names of Norns from Norse mythology.

If you want a weapon that’s been invalidated, try Vidofnir. Safeguard(+) grants +7 Def when the foe initiates. Vidofnir does too...though only if the foe has a sword, lance or axe.

Nah worse than that IMO

 

Vidofnir got invalidated the instant they create a 14 MT weapon that gives an effect alongside 4 defense and 5 HP

 

And then theres that abomination broken weapon that have 4 defense, 7 Res, and 5 HP. I still chuckle when people memed about Berkut Lance screwing Berkut over when there haven't been a single Legendary (Name)Weapon that is even half as good as Berkut Lance ended up being

[Humanoid]

Just a personal thing, but I dislike the well-worn trope of special weapons in any fiction that only one special snowflake in the world can wield. To that end, I'm quite happy to see the inheritable weapons matching and at times beating out so-called legendaries.

[sirmola]

14 minutes ago, Humanoid said:

There's probably not a lot of discussion (and the fact that this thread so far has been mostly talking about something else) because I think everyone's pretty much slid over to acceptance. Acceptance that powercreep is a more fundamental aspect to this gacha than the actual gacha mechanic itself. With powercreep and no randomness, there's still the lure for people to spend money. Vice-versa, the game loses its entire business model, as almost all incentive to pull will have gone. Almost, because I guess there are still people who'd pull for a character just for the fondness of that character, but I doubt that'd be a sustainable model.

GOod point i guess. That being said, there are other ways to do this. the big one is different things, that are not quite the same as anything in the game before. Libra's weapon, for example, is an axe version of a weapon that has been in the game for a very long time. this is also true every time a character has a very different stat spread that existing units, or has a unique weapon and movement combo. People now have incentive to pull libra not because he is more powerfull, but because he has something new. In fact, things like skill inheretance are designed to limit power creep in characters (by allowing you to give old characters many new toys. Also, the weapon refinery might also be considered power creep (although it exists more to get under par units up to par, which is arguably not power creep). Honestly, the existnce of all this is probably why power creep in this game has not been TOO bad.

Edited July 24, 2018 by sirmola

[Humanoid]

1 minute ago, sirmola said:

GOod point i guess. That being said, there are other ways to do this. the big one is different things. Libra's weapon for example, is an axe version of a weapon that has been in the game for a very long time. People now have incentive to pull libra not because he is more powerfull, but because he has something new. In fact, things like skill inheretance are designed to limit power creep in characters (by allowing you to give old characters many new toys. Also, the weapon refinery might also be consedered power creep (although it exists more to get under par units up to par, which is arguably not power creep).

It's all part of the powercreep "package", so to speak. There's a fine line to tread because people hate to have their previous investments invalidated. So the idea is to move the baseline up roughly in proportion to the rate of power creep such that the gap is approximately constant. Inheritance and refinement might not be technically powercreep in themselves, but they are a necessary consequence of the powercreep that happens at the top.

[Lewyn]

I think the much better, and more difficult of course, way of releasing exciting new units to pull for is making them different and interesting rather than just straight up better.  Like why use normal Tharja if you have Bridal Tharja?  Why use regular Ike if you have Legendary Ike?  

They have been releasing interesting units, but at the same time it seems stat spreads are more and more similar.  Where last year they were all over the place.  Also yes power creep has been happening for awhile now.  When you power creep, yes people might pull....like oh wow look at that BST or stats!!!  However at the same time, it can have an effect of people not wanting to spend money.  Cause why if a better version of the unit will be released a few months later? 

[Vince777]

It's come to the point where units are mostly expected to be statistically the same, maximizing their stats, quite often speed and attack for example, otherwise they have little chance at being a draw. It's getting so clone'ish that only personal weapons now seem to be differentiating them.



 

[Javi Blizz]

1 hour ago, Tybrosion said:

 

If you want a weapon that’s been invalidated, try Vidofnir. Safeguard(+) grants +7 Def when the foe initiates. Vidofnir does too...though only if the foe has a sword, lance or axe.

Another example would be Bright Naginata, since the new inheritable lance from Sumia is better with a Def refine

[Xenomata]

Can I quickly bring up Urðr vs Skuld again?

Urðr was put on an Infantry Dancer unit, who at the time was the only known kind of dancer. Skuld is on a Flier Dancer, so it's ability to trigger the +3 to all stat is less restricted by the terrain. Skuld is also a Sword, who these days a number of growing threats can be countered with Triangle Adept on a Red unit..

In that sense, Skuld is better than Urðr. Sorry I have nothing else to say, I kinda quickly skimmed the posts so far, carry on while I catch up.

Edited July 24, 2018 by Xenomata

[Zapp Branniglenn]

We stopped talking about it once there was no longer debate about "what constitutes powercreep". I think powercreep is healthy for the game. If only for the fact that, in a post Ayra world, people lose their shit on New Heroes banners when a new unit comes out and isn't at least a bit above average, like Seth or Nanna. 

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

If powercreep didn't exist, the majority would have no motivation to invest in the new units. And this would mean the end of Heroes and any other gacha...

[Ice Dragon]

43 minutes ago, Hecatia Lapislazuli said:

If powercreep didn't exist, the majority would have no motivation to invest in the new units. And this would mean the end of Heroes and any other gacha...

You don't need power creep to do that.

Olivia is the character people are talking about from the most recent banner, but the only unit that is in any way power creep on it is Maribelle. That's because Olivia introduces something new to the game, but not necessarily something better than other options.

[XRay]

8 hours ago, sirmola said:

What are some examples of the sorts of ways that power creep is occuring? If you don't think power creep is occuring, why not? I personaly think a good example is the new Olivia's weapon's +3 to all stats upon dance obseleting PA!azura's +2 (who i understand was very usable before this.)

Maribelle is like the best offensive healer right now, way surpassing Elise. ASS!Takumi is powercreep over WOF!Hinoka. SA!Tana is better than TOD!Nowi. SA!Innes is better than Minerva. Karla is a whole league above Ayra.

6 hours ago, Xenomata said:

Urðr was put on an Infantry Dancer unit, who at the time was the only known kind of dancer. Skuld is on a Flier Dancer, so it's ability to trigger the +3 to all stat is less restricted by the terrain. Skuld is also a Sword, who these days a number of growing threats can be countered with Triangle Adept on a Red unit..

I agree with the flier status being straight up better than infantry status, but being a sword unit does not make a unit power creep. Swords and axes are basically the same thing but with a different color, and you can still handle the same types of enemies by changing the rest of the team's color distribution.

A team of ASS!Takumi, ASS!Camilla, and YT!Olivia is the same as a team of ASS!Takumi, SA!Tana, and HNY!Azura. ASS!Camilla handles most reds and blues while YT!Olivia covers greens, which is functionally the same as SA!Tana handling most greens and reds while HNY!Azura covers blue.

 

[Xenomata]

12 minutes ago, XRay said:

I agree with the flier status being straight up better than infantry status, but being a sword unit does not make a unit power creep. Swords and axes are basically the same thing but with a different color, and you can still handle the same types of enemies by changing the rest of the team's color distribution.

Not necessarily being Red is the powercreep point, moreso the fact that, at least going by 702-714 AA battles, Green units are generally the most frightening part of a color-balanced team (thanks a lot Lector and Grima), if Reinhardt isn't present anyways. Where PA!Azura is more capable of taking on Blues, YT!Olivia can duel those greens more effectively, at least as long as the comparison is between the wielders of Personal Weapons with the Spectrum Dance effect. I suppose it's more what the player needs more, or even if they're willing to leave their Dancer in range of such frightening targets, because I personally find value in getting a Dancer to do as much as possible besides Dancing.

Though in a matter of who does Spectrum Dance PW better, Olivia wins by default.

Edited July 24, 2018 by Xenomata

[XRay]

46 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

Green units are generally the most frightening part of a color-balanced team (thanks a lot Lector and Grima)

That depends on what you have in your Barracks. I got two or three anti armor units of each color so green armor units are the least of my concern. Nowi is bigger threat to me, although by the time I run out of hard counters to deal with her, I bring out the big guns like Firesweep archers/healers to completely shut down counter attacks or Blade mages to one shot things.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

7 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

You don't need power creep to do that.

Olivia is the character people are talking about from the most recent banner, but the only unit that is in any way power creep on it is Maribelle. That's because Olivia introduces something new to the game, but not necessarily something better than other options.

I suspected the greed for the best is quite common. But if it's not case, which would be great, I'm relieved.

Still I think there are people who only play this just of curiousity for new better skills. 

As for me it's a mix of quantity and quality: I like to have new units, but I also like to have better new units.

[Azuni]

1 hour ago, XRay said:

Karla is a whole league above Ayra.

Where did you get this notion? Practically all of the whales I talk to on a daily basis say Ayra is the superior choice still, most likely because:

-Has access to Regnal Astra (doubly useful as it scores high, yet is still destructive with a low CD)

-Has solid physical bulk to stomach a counter hit between her attacks (presumably using the double Regnal Astra build)

[Hilda]

10 hours ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

Nah worse than that IMO

 

Vidofnir got invalidated the instant they create a 14 MT weapon that gives an effect alongside 4 defense and 5 HP

 

And then theres that abomination broken weapon that have 4 defense, 7 Res, and 5 HP. I still chuckle when people memed about Berkut Lance screwing Berkut over when there haven't been a single Legendary (Name)Weapon that is even half as good as Berkut Lance ended up being

this is why i ditched my +10 Fjorms personal DC Lance for Berkuts Lance+ and gave her Distant Counter. No need to run her ice mirror when she takes 0 dmg from magic attacks and kills you with quick riposte. Not to mention it made her Dragon Matchup also alot better!!!! Ding ding ding wwwwwwww (besides her physical bulk isnt crap either)