Should Final Smash meters be competitively legal?

[Armagon]

So yesterday, it was revealed that Final Smash meters are finally a thing. Previously in the competitive scene, Final Smashes were banned because they were dependent on the Smash Ball, an item that could spawn anywhere on the stage. But with Final Smash meters, that factor of randomness is gone. In addition, Final Smashes activated through the meter are weaker than their Smash Ball counterpoints.

My question to you is this: should Final Smash meters be made legal? Here's my stance on the matter: they should be made legal and here's why

1.  Final Smashes have always been the Smash equivalent of super moves from literally every fighting game ever. And now with the meters, it feels a lot closer to that.
2. The Final Smashes are weaker. Sure, some are still very powerful and not all Final Smashes are made equal. The same applies to super moves in a lot of other fighting games. And i've seen the point that Marth's Final Smash, even when weakened, can still OHKO. However, a lot of Final Smashes, especially Critical Hit, are easily dodgeable. The only point against this that i do understand is Infernal Climax, Bayonetta's Final Smash, as it's a universal time slow-down that kills anyone above 100%. Though, to be fair, we don't know how Infernal Climax is being handled when used through the meter.
3. Final Smashes are hype as hell. This is very important for viewership. Sakurai has already added little things to make the game a lot more enjoyable for the spectator. Things like the score appearing after each stock is taken to more easily show the audience who's winning. The slow-mo effect on strong moves and finishing moves to really drive home that satisfying impact. Having Final Smash meters be legal would add to that even more, especially since Sakurai has made a point in making a lot Final Smashes quick and straight to the point. 

Edited August 10, 2018 by Armagon

[DMan64]

Those are very good points, though I think that smaller tournaments should have them legal for a time to see how they play out, and then have one major/national tournament with them.  Depending on how they are for competitive players and viewership will dictate their legality, but I agree, they should be legal to start out, then should be judged after maybe a few months after.  It's kind of like what happened with Custom Moves in Smash 4, though I feel the final smash meter has a higher likelihood of being legal.

[Shadow Mir]

I dunno - having played Super Smash Bros. Crusade, which has Final Smash meters, I would lean towards no.

[Flamy]

No, because Marth, Roy, Lucina, Bowser, and Bayonetta still have instant-kill Final Smashes.

[Hecatia]

Just now, ScarletFlame said:

No, because Marth, Roy, Lucina, Bowser, and Bayonetta still have instant-kill Final Smashes.

Is that true? I'm sure that in the trailer THE ENEMY had a lot of damage percentage :o

If Final Smashes are indeed weaker, then seems likely they might not ban em'
I think that they banned them because of players who lead can be unbeatable and losing players can win too quick without "skill"

[Armagon]

11 minutes ago, ScarletFlame said:

No, because Marth, Roy, Lucina, Bowser, and Bayonetta still have instant-kill Final Smashes.

I mean

Quote

However, a lot of Final Smashes, especially Critical Hit, are easily dodgeable. The only point against this that i do understand is Infernal Climax, Bayonetta's Final Smash, as it's a universal time slow-down that kills anyone above 100%. Though, to be fair, we don't know how Infernal Climax is being handled when used through the meter.

 

Edited August 10, 2018 by Armagon

[NinjaMonkey]

Every other fighting game has Supers enabled, so I don't see why Smash should be different.

Edited August 10, 2018 by NinjaMonkey

[Nym]

Some final smash would have to be nerfed but yeah.

[NinjaMonkey]

25 minutes ago, Nym said:

Some final smash would have to be nerfed but yeah.

They are nerfed though.

[Nym]

4 minutes ago, NinjaMonkey said:

They are nerfed though.

I know but I meant the one that can insta kills like Critical hit.

[Lord-Zero]

The higher part of the competitive scene will most likely treat this as an item of sorts and won’t use them. Sticking to the usual battles of skill. 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

49 minutes ago, NinjaMonkey said:

Every other fighting game have Supers enabled, so I don't see why Smash should be different.

Lots of fighters have supers, that's true. But are they universally unblockable, frame 1 invulnerability attacks that come out comparatively faster than the average tilt or grab and are as wildly unbalanced as Final Smashes in terms of viability in a 1v1 fight?

I've already spoken my piece, and had my points thoroughly ignored or strawmanned, on another forum. But there would have to be many adjustments made in order for us to even consider this viable for 1v1. Because there are a ton of reasonable concerns to have based on the thirty seconds of footage in that direct.

• rebalancing final smashes is a given. Some being a big AoE like Lucas or Mario that comes out slow, is easy to avoid and in Mario's case straight up escape with ease when caught just don't compare to Bayonetta's unique FS or the ones that still instant kill like Marth and Game&Watch. Final Smashes are designed for a free for all setting, so if you've got one that's great at hitting multiple players it's just a disadvantage you won't be able to overcome.
• The threat of not losing a FS from taking a hit takes away 100% of the risk in waiting to use one. The very least they can do is add a timer like Cloud's limit or add some way to take away the opponent's meter progress. Like if it's consumed every time you grab a ledge, perform a dodge, etc. And even then I'd struggle to imagine what sorts of actions deserve that sort of punish.
• Yes you can dodge Final Smashes, but every character in the game could combo into their final smash. And remember there's no risk in waiting for the right moment, so trapping your opponent at a ledge or getting them off stage for an easier snipe is totally viable as well. "Just dodge it" doesn't cut it. I would suggest making final smashes blockable as a start before moving on to individual adjustments. But even then most just do so much damage they'd shield break, like Marth's Critical Hit at 38% base damage. In Smash 4 that was exactly how much you needed to break a shield if I recall correctly.And guess who can walk you to the ledge and tipper Fsmash for a kill at 40%?
• The rate at which you build up final smashes is too frequent. Dealing 10% or taking 10% damage are both equivelant to a tenth of your meter. So if you keep pace with your opponent and live to 100% on every stock, then you've earned two final smashes per life. The sheer frequency of earned final smashes is going to significantly drop how long you can survive in this mode, but that's still just absurd and you shouldn't be earning one final smash per life unless you thoroughly outplay and out-survive your opponent.
  • Furthermore getting rewarded this much for taking damage is dumb. Marth can never land a hit on his opponent until 100% then blow his OHKO FS to gain the lead. Yes said final smash can be feasibly avoided, but comeback mechanics are never this strong in any competitive game. Lucario is one of the most aggregious comeback mechanics I can think of in any competitive game, but even he doesn't earn unblockable, invincible moves at max aura
• You maintain your progress toward a final smash on death. And presumably a full meter on death as well. This isn't a problem for fighting games that have a system of rounds, I just think it's obnoxious that my final smash kill is probably going to result in my opponent getting his built up as he respawns. Gaining the final smash first won't even be a considerable advantage.
• Final Smashes that are viable in 1v1 would arbitrarily help out characters that normally are balanced around difficulty securing a kill. As if heavyweights needed another reason to be unviable, they just don't get as much mileage on a final smash. 
• If every stock is secured via a Final Smash I highly doubt it will make the game more "spectator friendly". You're just landing kills with the same super move and both players just start playing incredibly safe and risk-free once one of them gets their meter filled. This would be a disaster of a mode for watching just as much as playing since it will promote camping, overuse of defensive options, and really just turns up to 11 the worst aspects of Brawl/Smash 4.

Edited August 10, 2018 by Glennstavos

[thecrimsonflash]

I say leave it up to the organisers and see where it goes from there, if final smashes become more available that would be pretty cool and would make for much flashier matches, actually just increasing startup on lucina and marth and decreasing movement speed on bowser could be a good fix for them being op, or just you know, make them high powered attacks rather than insta kills.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, NinjaMonkey said:

Every other fighting game has Supers enabled, so I don't see why Smash should be different.

The problem is that we have instant kill Final Smashes and those like Game & Watch's, which render the user invincible for the duration of the Final Smash...

[Jedi]

if meter is gained by doing nothing (which i've heard some reports of from people watching the trailer). It'd become a very campy game and potentially even if it was just getting hit and taking hits, everything would be just slow and safe.

Very much like the brawl meta, so I don't think they'll be very well implimented for serious matches.

[The DanMan]

Hell no. The only way Final Smashes will ever be legal is if they're so homogenized they lose most of their appeal and individuality.

1 hour ago, NinjaMonkey said:

Every other fighting game has Supers enabled, so I don't see why Smash should be different.

And as we all should know, Smash is very different from every other fighting game.

[Shadow Mir]

You know what? After reading some of the responses, I'm changing my answer to a hard no. I just fail to see what good can come out of it... It just sounds too abusable.

[Zangetsu]

I say leave it, this mechanic isn't worse than some of other fighting games mechanic out there. Why should a nerf Final Smash be treated any different?

[Anomalocaris]

It won't be in mainstream tournament rules. As all of you have iterated several times in this thread, it's definitely a hard no.

Now, niche tournaments with unconventional rule variants? I could see it being allowed there. Some tournaments used to have the Smash Ball on, in fact, and at the very least this is more balanced than the Smash Ball.

Definitely more likely to show up in a non-1-on-1 tournament such as teams or free-for-alls. Final Smashes are not balanced for 1-on-1.

Edited August 10, 2018 by Anomalocaris

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Zangetsu said:

I say leave it, this mechanic isn't worse than some of other fighting games mechanic out there. Why should a nerf Final Smash be treated any different?

Because they're too abusable, especially transforming ones (e.g. Falco). Why yes, I do so love going against someone whose Final Smash can take two stocks off of me while all I can do is try (and fail) to run...

Edited August 10, 2018 by Shadow Mir

[Zangetsu]

12 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Because they're too abusable, especially transforming ones (e.g. Falco). Why yes, I do so love going against someone whose Final Smash can take two stocks off of me while all I can do is try (and fail) to run...

There aren't anymore transformation, so that's moot. For that matter, some of these Final Smash aren't any different from Street Fighters. We'll see how "broken" these  Final Smashes are when the game comes out. It'll be shame if wasn't legal when that's the purpose of them to begin with

[Shadow Mir]

57 minutes ago, Zangetsu said:

There aren't anymore transformation, so that's moot. For that matter, some of these Final Smash aren't any different from Street Fighters. We'll see how "broken" these  Final Smashes are when the game comes out. It'll be shame if wasn't legal when that's the purpose of them to begin with

It still sounds way too abusable - who's to say that I can't just snipe you with my Final Smash as you're trying to recover? Or wait until I have you dead to rights at a ledge? Of course, OHKO Final Smashes are still a concern too...

Edited August 10, 2018 by Shadow Mir

[Zangetsu]

59 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

It still sounds way too abusable - who's to say that I can't just snipe you with my Final Smash as you're trying to recover? Or wait until I have you dead to rights at a ledge? Of course, OHKO Final Smashes are still a concern too...

That doesn't sound any different from what people to begin with. You built those meters up for a reason & those OHKO are probably nerf with the meter. Again, we'll have to wait & see if they really aren't viable.

[Shadow Mir]

10 minutes ago, Zangetsu said:

That doesn't sound any different from what people to begin with. You built those meters up for a reason & those OHKO are probably nerf with the meter. Again, we'll have to wait & see if they really aren't viable.

Well, unfortunately, I think "wait and see" is the wrong mentality to be taking here...

[Zangetsu]

1 minute ago, Shadow Mir said:

Well, unfortunately, I think "wait and see" is the wrong mentality to be taking here...

Why? The Final Smash meter is obviously targeting to competitive play. It would be wrong to not test the waters