Even if Kaga dies. He will never be acknowledged by Nintendo for his role as the creator of the Fire Emblem Series.

[Spatha]

A grim but obvious conclusion. When was the last time Nintendo ever acknowledged him? When did IS actually credit him?

Acknowledging him would also highlight the famous lawsuit against Emblem Wars that Nintendo lost(although Enterbrain had to pay 76 million yen).

Not to mention the fact Kaga's games like Tear Ring Saga and Berwick Saga competed against Nintendo and actually even surpased the FE games (Binding Blade and Path of Radiance respectively) them in sales.

Him being unpersoned by Nintendo makes sense when taking into account the above facts.  (Correct me if I'm wrong)

It's quite sad. In the west, Fire Emblem is flourishing but only the die-hard fans will know who Kaga is.

 

 

Edited December 14, 2018 by Spatha

[Gregster101]

I feel bad for Kaga tbh. He went from the creator of one of Nintendo's (currently) most popular franchises at this point, to leaving IS to form his own company to make his own Fire Emblem games only to be sued by Nintendo and IS, to making RPG Maker games. It's kind of sad honestly :I

[Shakespeare1142]

Kaga is making rpg makers? also how do you think he looks upon the fire emblem franchise? do you think he'd be proud? i don't know maybe that's like asking robert johnson hoe he feels about pop music

[Jingle Jangle]

That is unfortunate, however that he willing made Emblem Wars that was dangerous close to Fire Emblem. It was even exclusive on a rival console.

[Spatha]

13 minutes ago, Jingle Bells said:

That is unfortunate, however that he willing made Emblem Wars that was dangerous close to Fire Emblem. It was even exclusive on a rival console.

Does it mean Inafune's Mighty No.9 or Igarashi's Bloodstained shouldn't be made? No, it doesn't.

Heck, that was I said about Nintendo's case and Kaga winning being famous.

It allowed original creators to make very similar spiritual sequels without the consent or involvement from their original parent companies

 

Edited December 14, 2018 by Spatha

[Etrurian emperor]

I think the main problem Kaga suffers from is timing. He started Fire Emblem but he was at the head of the series when it was a Japanese only series which means most fans never played his games and only got into the series after Kaga had left. And to make matters worse Fire Emblem only became a hit long, long after Kaga was gone which makes it harder to attribute this success to Kaga. 13 years had already passed by the time Fire Emblem exploded in popularity. 

[GamerX51]

1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I think the main problem Kaga suffers from is timing.

The main problem Kaga suffers from is Kaga. Look at it this way; Kaga left IS's employment and then immediately started a rival company that would have directly competed with Nintendo. How would you have reacted if you were in their shoes? Too many people on these forums look at this issue from Kaga's perspective and completely ignore the fact that there's another side to the argument; that of the publisher, who's having to compete in a VERY cutthroat industry where even the tiniest miscalculations are often fatal to a company.

The unfortunate fact of the matter is that by doing what he did after leaving his position at IS, Kaga picked a fight that he ultimately couldn't win, and now he's paying the price. There's more than one way to crush a competitor, even if Nintendo lost the court case. It really doesn't matter if you win a lawsuit if you can't out compete the other company.

Edited December 14, 2018 by GamerX51

[Spatha]

10 minutes ago, GamerX51 said:

The main problem Kaga suffers from is Kaga. Look at it this way; Kaga left IS's employment and then immediately started a rival company that would have directly competed with Nintendo. How would you have reacted if you were in their shoes? Too many people on these forums look at this issue from Kaga's perspective and completely ignore the fact that there's another side to the argument; that of the publisher, who's having to compete in a VERY cutthroat industry where even the tiniest miscalculations are often fatal to a company.

The unfortunate fact of the matter is that by doing what he did after leaving his position at IS, Kaga picked a fight that he ultimately couldn't win, and now he's paying the price.

It's not like Nintendo is completely clean.

The N64 period was a time where they lost the dominance they once had to the Playstation and it led to third-party developers like Squaresoft to jump ship.

Not to mention the questionable business decisions like the Virtua Boy and the fact planned N64 games for flagships like Metroid, Earthbound and Fire Emblem was cancelled.

Is it any wonder why Kaga left to form his own when the planned Thracia 766 port also fallen by the wayside?

Edited December 14, 2018 by Spatha

[Shakespeare1142]

10 minutes ago, Spatha said:

It's not like Nintendo is completely clean.

The N64 period was a time where they lost the dominance they once had to the Playstation and it led to third-party developers like Squaresoft to jump ship.

Not to mention the questionable business decisions like the Virtua Boy and the fact planned N64 games for flagships like Metroid, Earthbound and Fire Emblem was cancelled.

Is it any wonder why Kaga left to form his own when the planned Thracia 766 port also fallen by the wayside?

he's got a point. nintendo has had a reputation for mistreating 3rf party developers since the NES days (A scuffle about catrige shortages and preferential treatment) also in the nineties nintendo bailed on some creators based almost entirely on sales, which is why Metroid, Earthbound and FE64 got canned and why they told square enic off on there proposal for a disc based Final Fantasy (Nintendo thought it would be to big a risk to change there cartridge based system)

[GamerX51]

12 minutes ago, SamP832 said:

he's got a point. nintendo has had a reputation for mistreating 3rf party developers since the NES days (A scuffle about catrige shortages and preferential treatment) also in the nineties nintendo bailed on some creators based almost entirely on sales, which is why Metroid, Earthbound and FE64 got canned and why they told square enic off on there proposal for a disc based Final Fantasy (Nintendo thought it would be to big a risk to change there cartridge based system)

 

26 minutes ago, Spatha said:

It's not like Nintendo is completely clean.

The N64 period was a time where they lost the dominance they once had to the Playstation and it led to third-party developers like Squaresoft to jump ship.

Not to mention the questionable business decisions like the Virtua Boy and the fact planned flagship games like Metroid, Earthbound and Fire Emblem was cancelled.

Is it any wonder why Kaga left to form his own?

I'm by no means claiming that Nintendo is innocent in any of this; they're not, and they've paid a terrific price in recent years for their mistreatment of 3rd party developers like Squaresoft.  But by taking the tack he did, Kaga antagonized Nintendo at a time in which they were already fighting for their life in the corporate arena. This was destined to end badly for Kaga, and he has no one but himself to blame for where he is now.

[Shakespeare1142]

2 minutes ago, GamerX51 said:

 

I'm by no means claiming that Nintendo is innocent in any of this; they're not, and they've paid a terrific price in recent years for their mistreatment of 3rd party developers like Squaresoft.  But by taking the tack he did, Kaga antagonized Nintendo at a time in which they were already fighting for their life in the corporate arena. This was destined to end badly for Kaga, and he has no one but himself to blame for where he is now.

well naming his follow up "Emblem Saga" probably didn't help did it? :)

[Hawkwing]

Wait, is this true? Did Nintendo say somewhere that they wouldn't acknowledge Kaga's impact on the series if he died, or did you just make that conclusion? Unless there are legal reasons for it, Nintendo would earn much avoidable ire if they choose not to acknowledge that the series was created by Kaga. Even if they don't like mentioning him, sometimes that's only because of the simple fact that he didn't work on every single game in the franchise.

1 hour ago, Spatha said:

Does it mean Inafune's Mighty No.9 or Igarashi's Bloodstained shouldn't be made? No, it doesn't.

Heck, that was I said about Nintendo's case and Kaga winning being famous.

It allowed original creators to make very similar spiritual sequels without the consent or involvement from their original parent companies

 

The difference between Tear Ring Saga and Might Number 9 or Bloodstained is that the latter are throwbacks to a genre that hasn't seen much attention by major game companies for several years. Nowadays, that niche is often filled in by independence developers. Not to mention that both those games have been/will be released on multiple different platforms.

Meanwhile, Kaga went to a rival company that would only make the game on the Playstation, during a time when all sides were pretty blatant at mocking and upstaging each other. Not helping is that Fire Emblem, even early on, showed that it was a series that makes several unique changes to the gameplay to differentiate each game. With that in mind, it is not unreasonable for Nintendo to see Tear Ring Saga as more or less a normal Fire Emblem game with a different name, with the differences being expected of the series.

[Shakespeare1142]

4 minutes ago, Hawkwing said:

With that in mind, it is not unreasonable for Nintendo to see Tear Ring Saga as more or less a normal Fire Emblem game with a different name, with the differences being expected of the series.

 

well for christs sake the original title was "Emblem Saga" it was a little on the nose, you gotta admmit

[Spatha]

12 minutes ago, Hawkwing said:

Wait, is this true? Did Nintendo say somewhere that they wouldn't acknowledge Kaga's impact on the series if he died, or did you just make that conclusion? Unless there are legal reasons for it, Nintendo would earn much avoidable ire if they choose not to acknowledge that the series was created by Kaga. Even if they don't like mentioning him, sometimes that's only because of the simple fact that he didn't work on every single game in the franchise.

It's a hypothetical conclusion I've thought of. After all, Nintendo and IS haven't actually mentioned Kaga's contributions from Fire Emblem 1 to Fire Emblem 5, not even a passing mention at all.

They "may" even not mention him if he ever dies. The strained ties brought by the lawsuit would have been too great.

12 minutes ago, Hawkwing said:

The difference between Tear Ring Saga and Might Number 9 or Bloodstained is that the latter are throwbacks to a genre that hasn't seen much attention by major game companies for several years. Nowadays, that niche is often filled in by independence developers. Not to mention that both those games have been/will be released on multiple different platforms.

Meanwhile, Kaga went to a rival company that would only make the game on the Playstation, during a time when all sides were pretty blatant at mocking and upstaging each other. Not helping is that Fire Emblem, even early on, showed that it was a series that makes several unique changes to the gameplay to differentiate each game. With that in mind, it is not unreasonable for Nintendo to see Tear Ring Saga as more or less a normal Fire Emblem game with a different name, with the differences being expected of the series.

Then it shows that Kaga is ahead of his time doing that. The two series I've mentioned are similar to how Kaga did it, a Megaman or Castlevania with a different coat of paint although to be fair, Kaga really shouldn't have picked "Emblem Saga" as it's an obvious jab against Nintendo.

The difference is that Konami or Capcom wouldn't dare do to what Nintendo did to Kaga, especially in this wide age of the internet.

Edited December 14, 2018 by Spatha

[Hawkwing]

1 minute ago, Spatha said:

It's a hypothetical conclusion I've thought of. After all, Nintendo and IS haven't actually mentioned Kaga's contributions from Fire Emblem 1 to Fire Emblem 5, not even a passing mention at all.

They "may" even not mention him if he ever dies. The strained ties brought by the lawsuit would have been too great.

IS and Nintendo have mentioned Kaga before, albeit rarely and reluctantly, if it relates to the production of those games (or Echoes. He was brought up in a few interviews). Other times, he had no involvement, so they don't see any reason to bring him up.

Don't mistake not wishing to talk about him now as them ignoring his death. They may not do nothing more than acknowledge that he created the series when he dies, but ignoring him entirely would bring them trouble and criticism that they could otherwise easily avoid.

2 minutes ago, Spatha said:

Then it shows that Kaga is ahead of his time doing that. The two series I've mentioned are similar to how Kaga did it, a Megaman or Castlevania with a different coat of paint.

The difference is that Konami or Capcom wouldn't dare to what Nintendo did to Kaga, especially in this wide age of the internet.

Did you read the differences?

Bloodstained and Mighty Number 9 are being released on multiple different platforms. Tear Ring Saga was released on one, a competitor to Nintendo.

Bloodstained and Might Number 9 were based on games series that hadn't seen a videogame in several years at the time of their development. Tear Ring Saga was released when the FIre Emblem series was still continuing.

Yes, his case did show that it was fine for creators to branch off and develop a similar game on their own. However, several of the circumstances were different in Kaga's case. Even if he won in the end (though he still had to pay a fine to Nintendo), there was a legitimate concern from Nintendo that he was violating copyright laws with how similar Tear Ring Saga was to Fire Emblem.

[Slumber]

If he had left later or waited to make his own Fire Emblem-esque games, it probably would have ended better for him. 

Nowadays leaving a company and continuing to make similar products is more normal than not(On top of those mentioned, there's also Bayonetta and Platinum's whole foundation in general, Mistwalker's first big project was just Final Fantasy under a different name... That also had a very similar title to Final Fantasy). In America similar stuff was happening, like Tim Schafer and a bunch of Lucas Arts people leaving to found Double Fine and make more Lucas Arts-y games. 

It should be mentioned that compared to Nintendo, Square still recognizes the people that made Lost Odyssey(They still bring on Uematsu to compose from time to time, too), and Capcom's got a friendly-ish relationship with Platinum. 

Edited December 14, 2018 by Slumber

[Reality]

I honestly don't see any reason or precedent  for them to "deny" him.. he is mentioned as relevant by press releases and interviews.

. Honestly, I see him as not mentioned often in most FE content because... he is kind of periphery to the franchise. FE for Famicom wasn't particularly genre defining as TRPGs existed in Japan and the West already..... Even at the height of his powers on Super Famicom, Mystery of the Embelm and GotW - contrary to  their privileged position within the FE sales hierachry -didn't have such dominance compared to their contempary TRPGs.... Shining Force 1 and 2 released earlier, and   Squre Enix was already crawling over the genre.. Front Mission came out early 1995 and matched FE4's  late 1994 500K sales, as did Front Mission 2 in 1997 2 years later despite  releasing at the end of the console generation, , Tactics Ogre and Ogre Battle launch a year before and after FE4, respectively, both dwarfing it's influence and sales.. and although most consider it outside the strict scope of the genre It should be considered that  X-com released in 1994 as well. 

If anything, I think it kind of puts his most successful games in context that they were part of a larger 1993-1995 boom period for TRPGs, and that the weaker sales of the following FE games actually follow same behavior at the end of the boom that it's competiers do (eg Front Mission 3, FFTAdvance, etc). 

 

 

[NekoKnight]

The whole ordeal seemed really cutthroat and petty by Nintendo. Kaga helped create the series so they should at least credit him more. But they crushed him into the dirt and made him an unperson to the series history.

[Shakespeare1142]

Has he actually done any writing, designing or programming since Berwick Saga? Imagine what he could have done with modern tech, dude talks like complexity of gameplay and story was his ultimate goal but technical limitations impeded his vision

[eclipse]

26 minutes ago, Shakespeare1142 said:

Has he actually done any writing, designing or programming since Berwick Saga? Imagine what he could have done with modern tech, dude talks like complexity of gameplay and story was his ultimate goal but technical limitations impeded his vision

Vestaria Saga.  Demo's out on Steam.  Give it a whirl~!

And with that, goodbye topic.  This sounds like elitist bullshit (the actual topic, not the guy I quoted).

(as in, cut the crap, TC, or you're on a one-way ticket off of SF)

EDIT: I just realized how ironic this topic is, because the same guy whined about the DS remakes, too.  Which were remakes of Archanea, which I'm pretty sure were by Kaga.  Good going.

Edited December 17, 2018 by eclipse