The Dawn Brigade

[Lord Raven]

Does no one respect the TC's request?

It seems not, sorry.

I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how low speed on a unit that shouldn't be getting attacked makes her OMFG TRBL. If my Micaiah had 1 speed or 30, it wouldn't make a whole lot of difference to me because I'm not stupid enough to leave her open to incoming attacks from, say, an enemy warrior.

It's similar to allowing an illiterate person to becoming president because his country or family was too poor to afford education.

It matters less what they're "meant" to do. It matters more how they do it; if they're "meant" to be sitting in the backlines because of their poor speed/HP/defense, then that's a point against them no matter how you look at it. Also, with low speed they're not doubling anyway so having 1 speed is a complete point against Micaiah.

They're not always going to be protected either. What if they do get hit? Then they're pretty much fucked.

Quality includes ease of use and overall output; Laura really doesn't have much ease of use and her overall output is not too hot either (aside from being the only healer for Part I...). Same with Micaiah for that matter.

Edited November 18, 2008 by Lord Raven

[Knife]

It seems not, sorry.

It matters less what they're "meant" to do. It matters more how they do it; if they're "meant" to be sitting in the backlines because of their poor speed/HP/defense, then that's a point against them no matter how you look at it. Also, with low speed they're not doubling anyway so having 1 speed is a complete point against Micaiah.

They're not always going to be protected either. What if they do get hit? Then they're pretty much fucked.

Quality includes ease of use and overall output; Laura really doesn't have much ease of use and her overall output is not too hot either. Same with Micaiah.

Don't sweat it. Too many tl;drs anyways.

[_____]

Everything you said there falls well within the margin of error. Besides, it's perfectly reasonable to compare level 13 Sniper Leo to level 13 Sniper Shinon. Toss him beastfoe in 3-6 and Leo will be your star performer, guaranteed.

Besides, considering Leo and Shinon can't possibly compete for playtime until Part 4 rolls around, it's perfectly reasonable that both will be in the level 1-3 range of Marksman. Both are filling a worthwhile role on their respective teams so who cares who is better in a map that the other can't possibly fight in? Rolling towards my hypothetical situation then:

Leonardo's 20/20/1 stats:

HP:44

STR:25

MAG:11.25 (so 11 rounded)

SKL:32

SPD:25.25 (25)

LCK:28.75 (29)

DEF:20.25 (20)

RES:20

Shinon's --/20/3 stats:

HP:50

STR:26.6 (27)

MAG:12.05 (12)

SKL:33.4 (33)

SPD:29.3 (29)

LCK:17.1 (17)

DEF:25.15 (25)

RES:19.8 (20)

Notice I gave Shinon the level advantage because he'll probably have one. It could be more significant, granted, but I'm going to assume you're spreading the experience around a little more in the Greil Mercs. I know I tend to stop using a guy quite as often if they rank up to tier 3 and there's still other guys I want to rank up.

Processing this, we see Shinon with a lead of 6 HP, 2 strength, 1 magic, 1 skill, 4 speed, and 5 defense. All of those fall within the margin of error except HP and defense. Leo with his bow will be faster. Leo also have a massive lead in luck, a full 12 points.

But wait!

A WILD CARD HAS APPEARED!

If we're going by average, Leo has had 14 potential levels to force stat gains in poor growth areas through bonus experience. By comparison, Shinon has had 5.

That will mean Luck will have definitely maxed long before we're at this point, and his HP will have surpassed or at the very least equalled Shinon's. His strength and speed will also have increased by at the very least two points apiece, meaning he'll have surpassed Shinon in strength and still only barely be behind in raw speed but with an advantage because of his bow.

And here's another kicker in the case that Leo is in fact pretty awesome: Even if you decide to use Shinon, you aren't EVER forced into using both of them at the same time unless you decide to bring both of them end-game. Even once they can finally start competing because you're in Act 4, you can stick, say, Shinon in Ike's group and Leonardo in Tibarn's group. If we're going even by averages, Leo's slight handicap (which he can easily make up for because of bonus experience) isn't enough to make him anything but a star player in part 4's maps. That's the beauty of the marksman class. They're just downright excellent.

I didn't say more durable. I said passably durable. She's going to be a helluva lot faster than he is so she'll most likely be excelling in offense at the expense of taking more damage when she gets hit.

Leo'll get to 20/13... if you have him solo chapter 3-6. Leo can one-round Laguz with Beastfoe, but so can any other Dawn Brigade units. Plus, Leo doesn't counter. Nolan or Edward, the ones stopping up the holes between the trees, are better suited for Beastfoe.

When you compare characters, there is no margin of error. You go by average stats. The stats you just gave obviously point out Shinon's superiority, and you made him underleveled. He'll probably be 20/5, at least.

If Leo can make good use of BEXP, Shinon can, too. They both can be star players come endgame. Leo is a pain to raise and is mediocre compared to Shinon come endgame. Shinon comes great and ends as one of the best characters.

[Florete]

Leo'll get to 20/13... if you have him solo chapter 3-6. Leo can one-round Laguz with Beastfoe, but so can any other Dawn Brigade units. Plus, Leo doesn't counter. Nolan or Edward, the ones stopping up the holes between the trees, are better suited for Beastfoe.

Leo or Nolan + Beastfoe + Bowgun = the best candidate for Beastfoe, easily. Either that or Jill.

[Lord Raven]

Plus, Leo doesn't counter.

Crossbows RAPE the hell out of laguz. They do like 80+ damage discounting defense, and with defense it goes right to like 60.

[Destiny Hero]

Crossbows are usable?

[Knife]

Crossbows are usable?

Must... not... taunt...

[Florete]

Crossbows are usable?

Leo or Nolan + Beastfoe + Bowgun = the best candidate for Beastfoe, easily. Either that or Jill.

Definitely. They are arguably the best weapon type for 3-6, 3-13, and 4-5. Boyd or Nolan + any crossbow + Beastfoe + dragonfoe = one hit kill on almost any enemy in 4-5.

[Kintenbo]

Didn't he say not to turn this into a debate? Settle down pplz.

Sorry about my part in the debate, the whole Leonardo having better stats than Shinon shinanagans sort of baffled me. If nothing else, Leonardo is not too bad if he gets speed blessed.

Anyway, the Dawn Brigade fails to fail because they have Fire Emblem Chuck Norris on their side! (Nolan) Not to mention Samus Aran's brother. (his name was Brad in the Japanese version, inside joke I made, calling him Brad Aran) Not only that, but they can catch small animals with Tauroneo's facial hair! The statement that the Dawn Brigade is underrated is right in my books!

[Lord Raven]

Crossbows are usable?

Indeed they are. They do like like 20 damage on enemy phases (10 damage x2) to pretty much anyone who attacks you, and you can do like 20 damage on your turn easily with them. It also helps with Disarm and, once again, rapes laguz chapters completely.

[_____]

Crossbows RAPE the hell out of laguz. They do like 80+ damage discounting defense, and with defense it goes right to like 60.

And do you plan on having Leo stop up a hole and tank? I think not. His HP and Def are rather miserable.

[sandmanccl]

Okay, you're not getting this.

There's a line I could totally throw right back in your face.

First off, Leonardo's bases are absolutely pathetic. He gets doubled very, very quickly into the game and has no defense to back it up either. Nor does he have HP. And he ain't doubling for a while himself, I'll assure you of that. In a nutshell: he blows in Part 1.

Bases are pathetic? 10 speed at level 4 is pretty damn good. He's not going to double, sure, but it's easy for him to gain experience.

What the hell? I had a huge argument written here and it got swamped. Basically, it's easy for ranged attackers to gain experience (in fact, easier if they are slow) because it doesn't steal experience away from others, plus bonus experience is plentiful unless you're on hard mode. Better defense and HP wouldn't matter because it'd just mean he'd have 5 HP left rather than 2 after getting hit, meaning you still need to heal him anyway.

You don't even obtain Paragon until like late into Part 1. Where her post-Part 1 level goes to 13 or 14 instead of like 10 anyway. This still makes Laura frail as hell, and she still needs to be heavily protected... Mist can at least take a couple hits before dying.

If by "late into part 1", you mean the end of chapter 6, slightly more than halfway through it, with the remaining maps all ones with absurd amounts of enemies. That same paragon, btw, serving the entirety of part 3, while you don't have access to one for anyone in the Griel Mercenaries until you get to Part 4.

Not sure what this has to do with Laura specifically. Just saying it's the truth. While you're not going to get everyone in the DB up to par for end-game, the 2 or 3 you decide to focus on will be amazing.

It's too much effort. Her bases are bad because she can't handle what's in the chapter she's in, it has nothing to do with her base level or anything. You have to understand, when one's bases are "poor" it's because they suck in the chapter they're in and they suck in the chapter(s) afterwards with those stats or their stats a couple levels higher. It doesn't necessarily mean they're poor relative to the level; you have to factor both in after all.

She can't handle the tigers in 1-4? You're kidding, right? Maybe on Hard Mode, but then again, none of your people can handle them on hard. In fact, on hard, I'd say she's your best candidate for tanking the cats (not the tigers, just the cats) because there's no risk of a critical hit and those WILL double attack all your other guys except maybe Edward and Sothe. You're going to have to heal either way, so might as well make it someone who cannot possibly die to them.

She grows up quickly enough, anyway. Two points in speed and strength, she'll be the most defensively competent person in the DB except for Aran (and Tauroneo but that's only because he's the Jeigan), more than enough to handle everything else Part 1 throws at you. She's got fantasitc bases, and TONS of room to grow (more than any other unit in the game barring Micaiah and Laura).

Too much effort is all in the eyes of the beholder, and I say she's well worth it if only because raising potential god-mode units is always fun even if they start crappy. Like Nino.

I'm still really ticked this post ate half my argument. :(

[sandmanccl]

Leo'll get to 20/13... if you have him solo chapter 3-6. Leo can one-round Laguz with Beastfoe, but so can any other Dawn Brigade units. Plus, Leo doesn't counter. Nolan or Edward, the ones stopping up the holes between the trees, are better suited for Beastfoe.

My typical playthrough sees Nolan, Leo, and Edward at level 20/3-6 by the time part 1 ends. They are all about 6 levels into tier 3 by the time part 4 begins. Funny thing, so is Shinon when I decide to use him.

They never cross playtime until part 4 and even then it's only if you want them to. Leo being good for his chapters is independant of Shinon being good for his. The difference is that Leonardo's potential outshines Shinon's.

When you compare characters, there is no margin of error. You go by average stats. The stats you just gave obviously point out Shinon's superiority, and you made him underleveled. He'll probably be 20/5, at least.

If Leo can make good use of BEXP, Shinon can, too. They both can be star players come endgame. Leo is a pain to raise and is mediocre compared to Shinon come endgame. Shinon comes great and ends as one of the best characters.

Nonono. When YOU compare characters, there's no margin of error. When anyone with half a brain compares characters, there's a margin of error. I'm not a math whiz so I don't know how to compute it, but there's margins of error for anything involving statistics, ever. Even presidential polls. If one guy is leading "on average" by 1 point, big f***ing deal. That's a whole whopping one single solitary level that went your way instead of going the other. It happens more often than you're willing to admit.

Leo can make MORE use of BEXP than Shinon can, which is my point. It's easier to force stats at lower levels than higher ones, anyway. Would you rather spend 200 BEXP or 20000 BEXP?

Leo's only a pain to raise if you're not that good with managing archers. I love archers so this is not a problem for me, and I'm willing to bet it's not that hard for a lot of other people, too. He's a great unit and consistently one of my star players, even when he's screwed in stats. Shinon competes for playtime with half of the best units in the entire game, on the other hand, so it's pretty easy to dump him in favor of someone else. I don't think he's worth the time considering the other archers end up better and I'm already using Leo because Leo isn't keeping me from using anyone else who's I also already plan on using.

[Florete]

Just so everyone has another person to disagree with, here's my take on the Dawn Brigade:

Micaiah: A little above average. Thani is a murderer and she's great with staves.

Edward: He's better than people say he is, but competition with Mia and Zihark is tough. All 3 are almost equal.

Leonardo: Sub-par at best. Lugnasadh is pretty great, but he's terrible without it and not great with it.

Nolan: He should be good, but he's always screwed for me. Boyd's better.

Laura: A great character. The only healer in part 1 and still pretty good until endgame.

Sothe: Transfer bonuses make him h4x at start and he's still pretty good later.

Ilyana: I'd love to say she's great, but she really isn't. She benefits more than most from transfers, but even then her speed growth and cap both suck and Thunder is terrible. I love using her and I find her usually better than Soren, but that's just me.

Aran: A great tank and a great member of the team. His speed could use some work.

Meg: Average. She's okay to start and still just okay later on. She's worth a shot, but nothing special.

Volug: One of the best laguz in the game. He may not be too great come part 4, but he shines before then. A great member of the team.

Jill: I love her hair. She's also a pretty great character. Her skill and strength need some work, but she's one of the best members on the team. I personally might say Jill>Haar because she's a bigger help to her team than Haar is to his and she endgames better.

Zihark: A great member of the team and has h4x earth affinity. Competes with Edward and Mia for best SM.

Tauroneo: I've never used him much, but he looks like he'd be decent for his class.

Fiona: She's terrible to start, but great later on. I like using her, but I'm not surprised by anyone who says she sucks.

Tormod and Crew: Tormod and Vika can be pretty good for endgame, but their re-join time is just way too late.

Nailah: Possibly the best laguz royal when looking at the entire game and not just part 4.

Rafiel: Win. Not as good as Reyson, but still win.

[_____]

My typical playthrough sees Nolan, Leo, and Edward at level 20/3-6 by the time part 1 ends. They are all about 6 levels into tier 3 by the time part 4 begins. Funny thing, so is Shinon when I decide to use him.

They never cross playtime until part 4 and even then it's only if you want them to. Leo being good for his chapters is independant of Shinon being good for his. The difference is that Leonardo's potential outshines Shinon's.

Nonono. When YOU compare characters, there's no margin of error. When anyone with half a brain compares characters, there's a margin of error. I'm not a math whiz so I don't know how to compute it, but there's margins of error for anything involving statistics, ever. Even presidential polls. If one guy is leading "on average" by 1 point, big f***ing deal. That's a whole whopping one single solitary level that went your way instead of going the other. It happens more often than you're willing to admit.

Leo can make MORE use of BEXP than Shinon can, which is my point. It's easier to force stats at lower levels than higher ones, anyway. Would you rather spend 200 BEXP or 20000 BEXP?

Leo's only a pain to raise if you're not that good with managing archers. I love archers so this is not a problem for me, and I'm willing to bet it's not that hard for a lot of other people, too. He's a great unit and consistently one of my star players, even when he's screwed in stats. Shinon competes for playtime with half of the best units in the entire game, on the other hand, so it's pretty easy to dump him in favor of someone else. I don't think he's worth the time considering the other archers end up better and I'm already using Leo because Leo isn't keeping me from using anyone else who's I also already plan on using.

You, however, tend to stop using Shinon when he hits Tier 3. If you were to use him consistantly through the part, he'd be 20/6-8~. Big lead on Leo.

No need for insults. :/ There's a margin of error irl. I know that. When comparing characters that have AVERAGES made, however, you tend to use the averages.

Example: Aran's better than Nephenee with BEXP because he has the stats of a tank to start and he gains speed stats with BEXP. Does that make Aran better? No. Nephenee starts better and doesn't need BEXP to be amazing. (Aran wins at life, though.)

You pretty much admitted that you favor him with the "He's a great unit and consistently one of my star players, even when he's screwed in stats." comment. If any other unit was stat-screwed, you would bench them. Try to be a LITTLE objective.

[Lord Raven]

Bases are pathetic? 10 speed at level 4 is pretty damn good. He's not going to double, sure, but it's easy for him to gain experience.

It doesn't matter when it's not doing him much justice when he starts out. Considering he doesn't counter either.

What the hell? I had a huge argument written here and it got swamped. Basically, it's easy for ranged attackers to gain experience (in fact, easier if they are slow) because it doesn't steal experience away from others, plus bonus experience is plentiful unless you're on hard mode. Better defense and HP wouldn't matter because it'd just mean he'd have 5 HP left rather than 2 after getting hit, meaning you still need to heal him anyway.

BEXP boosts only three stats, and I'm willing to bet that it takes the highest three more often; that's Skill, HP, and Luck. And you want him to get more Speed and Strength and such... it's not a good idea.

Even regardless, Leonardo is very, very vulnerable to gangrape on enemy phase and dies very easily to it. Especially considering only like two units can shield for him early on, at best too; Nolan and Sothe.

If by "late into part 1", you mean the end of chapter 6, slightly more than halfway through it, with the remaining maps all ones with absurd amounts of enemies. That same paragon, btw, serving the entirety of part 3, while you don't have access to one for anyone in the Griel Mercenaries until you get to Part 4.

End of Chapter 6 is plenty late. Chapter 9 is Micaiah only and Chapter 8 (or was it 7?) is a hellhole filled with enemies that can easily feast on Laura; in particular, I'm talking about Wyverns that can easily double and kill her.

Don't even bring up Part 3. You're completely surrounded by enemies and Laura needs heavy, centralized protection if you want her to stay alive.

Not sure what this has to do with Laura specifically. Just saying it's the truth. While you're not going to get everyone in the DB up to par for end-game, the 2 or 3 you decide to focus on will be amazing.

And the 2-3 that are easiest and less time consuming to focus on - yielding quite good results at the same time - will probably be Nolan, Jill, and Zihark. Sothe and Micaiah are a given even if Micaiah's not particularly good.

She can't handle the tigers in 1-4? You're kidding, right? Maybe on Hard Mode, but then again, none of your people can handle them on hard. In fact, on hard, I'd say she's your best candidate for tanking the cats (not the tigers, just the cats) because there's no risk of a critical hit and those WILL double attack all your other guys except maybe Edward and Sothe. You're going to have to heal either way, so might as well make it someone who cannot possibly die to them.

She can't evade them and they kill her pretty easily, especially on Hard; what are you thinking of? At least Sothe can evade and Nolan can take a couple hits (along with numerous walls around the stage). The next chapter is filled with Mages too, which will beat her down senseless.

She can barely even kill them without a ton of handholding. Ilyana doesn't do too bad a job with handling them to be honest; Meg does a pretty bad job. Especially with an Iron Sword.

Someone like Reikken needs to give me exact numbers, I haven't played this in months.

She grows up quickly enough, anyway. Two points in speed and strength, she'll be the most defensively competent person in the DB except for Aran (and Tauroneo but that's only because he's the Jeigan), more than enough to handle everything else Part 1 throws at you. She's got fantasitc bases, and TONS of room to grow (more than any other unit in the game barring Micaiah and Laura).

No she doesn't, Swords are pretty week and she has low speed.

Too much effort is all in the eyes of the beholder, and I say she's well worth it if only because raising potential god-mode units is always fun even if they start crappy. Like Nino.

Don't even START on Nino. Nino is a piece of trash that somehow gains 30 levels, and as such catching up to the rest of your team in five chapters? I don't think so. Nino sucks pretty bad.

"Too much effort" is not in the eyes of the beholder. If they're good from the start and remain good throughout, they require no effect. If they start out average and end up good, they require moderate effort. If they start out shitty and needing handholding, or get to such a point at sometime in the game (such as Meg, Ilyana, most of the Dawn Brigade) then they require tons of effort.

I find it slightly hypocritical that you defend them while shitting on Fiona. Fiona's got an Earth support over them on top of mounted advantage, even with a lot of other disabilities.

Also: http://www.feplanet.net/games-10-characters-averages - the averages contain uncertainty

Edited November 18, 2008 by Lord Raven

[Saint Nightroad]

My typical playthrough sees Nolan, Leo, and Edward at level 20/3-6 by the time part 1 ends. They are all about 6 levels into tier 3 by the time part 4 begins. Funny thing, so is Shinon when I decide to use him.

They never cross playtime until part 4 and even then it's only if you want them to. Leo being good for his chapters is independant of Shinon being good for his. The difference is that Leonardo's potential outshines Shinon's.

Nonono. When YOU compare characters, there's no margin of error. When anyone with half a brain compares characters, there's a margin of error. I'm not a math whiz so I don't know how to compute it, but there's margins of error for anything involving statistics, ever. Even presidential polls. If one guy is leading "on average" by 1 point, big f***ing deal. That's a whole whopping one single solitary level that went your way instead of going the other. It happens more often than you're willing to admit.

Leo can make MORE use of BEXP than Shinon can, which is my point. It's easier to force stats at lower levels than higher ones, anyway. Would you rather spend 200 BEXP or 20000 BEXP?

Leo's only a pain to raise if you're not that good with managing archers. I love archers so this is not a problem for me, and I'm willing to bet it's not that hard for a lot of other people, too. He's a great unit and consistently one of my star players, even when he's screwed in stats. Shinon competes for playtime with half of the best units in the entire game, on the other hand, so it's pretty easy to dump him in favor of someone else. I don't think he's worth the time considering the other archers end up better and I'm already using Leo because Leo isn't keeping me from using anyone else who's I also already plan on using.

Ok lets pretend for just one moment that Leonardo wasn't worthless....

Ok pretending times over.

If Leonardo was in a competent team, then maybe he would be a decent unit. But look at Micaiah's team. You have a pitiful mage (Micaiah), another pitiful mage (Illyana, but noone uses her anyway), and a healer who need constant babying and protection. If you drop your guard of any of them for one turn, then you risk a one hit kill.

Then you've got Edward, who until he becomes higher leveled, also needs a lot of babying.

Now what happens if you add in Leonardo? Simple... he also needs CONSTANT babying because his defenses are absolutely worthless. Now what happens to a team in which half or more of the members need constant protection? If you can't answer this, then you are not worth my time.

Besides needing constant babying, Leonardo also takes much needed experience from the group, which can be better spent on Nolan, Sothe, Micaiah, Edward/Zihark, Aran, and/or Jill.

And for what? To POSSIBLY only compete with Shinon. Shinon is an awesome unit any way you slice it, because unlike the other 2 worthless archers, he comes in at a very high level (perhaps even overleveled), and still doesn't lose any potential because of it.

Long story short, I like units that make my job easier... and Leonardo isn't one of them.

[Lord Raven]

Rolf is a lot easier to use than Leonardo, I might add. He at least ends up as good as Shinon, even if he requires a kickstart (granted, it's not nearly as huge as Dawn Brigade kickstarts...)

[Kintenbo]

Don't even START on Nino. Nino is a piece of trash that somehow gains 30 levels, and as such catching up to the rest of your team in five chapters? I don't think so. Nino sucks pretty bad.

Not trying to go off topic, but Nino isn't considered RROOOAAAARRR horrible. She has the experience rank and being better than Vaida (apparently) on her side. Definately not the worst. (talk to Karla for that)

Anyway, going back to topic, does anybody else feel it stupid to have Jill and Zihark join Ike's team. Imagine the Dawn Brigade with their help in Chapter 12 and 13......

Edited November 18, 2008 by Kintenbo

[Lord Raven]

Not trying to go off topic, but Nino isn't considered RROOOAAAARRR horrible. She has the experience rank and being better than Vaida (apparently) on her side. Definately not the worst. (talk to Karla for that)

Too bad the Dawn Brigade doesn't have an experience rank to lay back on that Nino does. I was mainly saying it in the terms that there wasn't an experience rank in Nino's case, but you have to admit that without the experience rank Nino IS pretty bad.

[sandmanccl]

You, however, tend to stop using Shinon when he hits Tier 3. If you were to use him consistantly through the part, he'd be 20/6-8~. Big lead on Leo.

At the expense of having another totally amazing unit that won't be that same level as a tier 3 character. Considering how amazing every other unit on that team can be, there's a pretty valid argument against over-using him. Also also, even if Shinon has 10 levels into Marksman and Leo just barely makes it to Marksman before part 4 begins, you're telling me that you can't stick Leo on a different team than Shinon and make up the experience difference to the point that he is also a totally amazing unit?

Granted, if you want to make him your star player, that's fine. Shinon is still pretty great, as I happen to find a good archer is never a wasted spot. He's just not OMFG oh so much better than Leo, especially because Leo doesn't ever have to compete for his combat role with any other unit, ever.

As for Rolf, I consider him the best marksman, because along with Oscar and Boyd, they become destroyer of worlds end-game. Almost killing the final 3 bosses in a hit without fear of them counter-attacking (god i love 3 range) is utterly amazing. Plus I consider strength the single solitary more important stat for archers second to skill. Rolf's tied for the best strength growth in the game (along with Aran) and his skill, while spotty for a marksman, is still pretty damn good.

No need for insults. :/ There's a margin of error irl. I know that. When comparing characters that have AVERAGES made, however, you tend to use the averages.

Give me a compelling argument stating exactly why I should throw margins of error out the window, especially with how easily they come into play. A guy has 5 lead in defense on average, fine. His defense is going to be better than the other guy's the vast majority of the time. A guy has a single solitary advantage in strength, with the same percent chance for an increase? Sorry bud, even with exact averages, that's not enough of a reason for me to flag one guy the champion and not let the other guy make the playoffs.

Example: Aran's better than Nephenee with BEXP because he has the stats of a tank to start and he gains speed stats with BEXP. Does that make Aran better? No. Nephenee starts better and doesn't need BEXP to be amazing. (Aran wins at life, though.)

Aran doesn't "need" bonus experience. =\ His speed is just fine. The fact you CAN fix his dump stat is just a major plus. (Gasp, this is exactly how I feel about Leonardo.) He's not going to be double attacking but you're not bringing him along to double attack, you're bringing him along to soak up damage and dish out huge numbers per hit. Also, comparing Aran to Nephenee is again kind of useless for the same reasons comparing Shinon to Leo. They never, ever possibly compete for playtime until End-game and due to the random nature of the game, any comparative level Arans vs. Nephenees is going to be a toss up which one is better and which one will get the end-game nod.

You pretty much admitted that you favor him with the "He's a great unit and consistently one of my star players, even when he's screwed in stats." comment. If any other unit was stat-screwed, you would bench them. Try to be a LITTLE objective.

I've only used Leonardo as the unit I was directly planning on bringing to the end of the game once. I just happen to use him every playthrough, just the same as everyone. I just happen to find that even when I'm not favoring him, he still helps me out a whole lot in Part 1 and Part 3 especially. Even when he's been speed screwed, he was great because there's almost always a ledge you can stick him on to tank people below without fear of reprisal (something he'll do better than anyone else in the Dawn Brigade except perhaps Nolan with a rare throwing axe). Tactically, an archer is a significant boon to the depleted tanking staff of the Dawn Brigade. Would I rather have a more viable paladin option, or another Sentinel/Marshall/Dragonknight? Doesn't matter because you've only potentially got one of each of those with the Dawn Brigade.

(And I have also benched Leo multiple times for being seriously stat screwed or other reasons. Once was when I tried to make Ilyana worthwhile, a decision I regretted, and another was when he somehow managed to make it to level 10 without gaining a single solitary point in HP, Str, Speed, and Luck. Shit happens. That was a rough playthrough, I might add, because turning Nolan and Edward into ranged units out of necessity cripples their tactical potential.)

Work with what you got.

[sandmanccl]

Ok lets pretend for just one moment that Leonardo wasn't worthless....

Ok pretending times over.

Okay let's pretend you knew what you were talking about.

Damn, that was short lived. :(((((((

Alright, that might have been a low blow. My apologies. I'm laughing about it too hard to not post it, though. Damn my cruel sense of humor, damn it to hell.

If Leonardo was in a competent team, then maybe he would be a decent unit. But look at Micaiah's team. You have a pitiful mage (Micaiah), another pitiful mage (Illyana, but no one uses her anyway), and a healer who need constant babying and protection. If you drop your guard of any of them for one turn, then you risk a one hit kill.

So what you're saying is that you've got an awful lot of people, that regardless of playthrough, will be sitting behind your main lines so you're going to want to rely on protective formations to keep enemies from getting to your backs.

Which means archers will be star players on your team. Kill every enemy that comes your way before they have a chance to get to you, and you don't really need to "baby" them all, do you?

Then you've got Edward, who until he becomes higher leveled, also needs a lot of babying.

Now what happens if you add in Leonardo? Simple... he also needs CONSTANT babying because his defenses are absolutely worthless. Now what happens to a team in which half or more of the members need constant protection? If you can't answer this, then you are not worth my time.

Edward only requires as much babying as any other member of your party on hard mode, and that's only because you don't have the weapon triangle to fall back on. On normal, the large amount of axe guys you fight in the first 5 chapters should be a breeze for Edward to murder without significant risk of getting hit.

What happens when you have a lot of guys that don't die in a hit and always require you to heal at least one of your units on your turn, is you kill everything without fear of counter-attack through ranged weaponry. Gee, sounds like Leo's forte.

Also, be careful where you point that "not worth my time" gun. It might misfire in your face.

Besides needing constant babying, Leonardo also takes much needed experience from the group, which can be better spent on Nolan, Sothe, Micaiah, Edward/Zihark, Aran, and/or Jill.

You're talking about people stealing experience and yet list Sothe and Zihark? The guys gain friggin' 8 experience on enemies they get the killing blow against. If anyone is "stealing experience" in the Dawn Brigade, it's those two.

Anyway:

It shouldn't be too much of a task to get 3 and a half people to tier 2 by the end of Part 1, plus still having Micaiah at level 20. A bit harder on Hard mode, so even then let's say we axe a whole guy. So we're talking Nolan getting the bump and then Edward or Aran getting the bump with the "half a person" going to Jill with a bump up. Even should you use all of those guys, an evenly leveled team will see an awful lot of them sitting just shy of promotion at Part 1's end.

Plus, Leo's not stealing any experience. If anything, he's helping people get more. Archers that don't double attack help with that quite a lot. Enemy A is sitting out in the open. Edward will double attack it and kill it on the second strike, meaning he's going to risk a counter-attack. Nolan won't quite double attack it if he's using his Steel axe and using an Iron axe finds himself in much the same situation as Edward. Solution: Attack it with Leonardo first, then finish it off with Edward if Edward can now kill it in a hit or do it with Nolan otherwise. If you still can't quite take it out in a hit, tag it with Ilyana first because chances are, she's not going to do enough damage to the guy to finish it off if you use her wimpy tome, THEN finish it off. Then you've got 3 people who gained experience! That's much better than just a single guy gaining XP, wouldn't you agree? The situations the DB finds themselves in where you'd actually have to spread your offense out any given turn against more units than you can handle is very, very, very rare. (The only genuine situation I can think of is turn one of chapter 1-5, where there's 4 dudes right in your face at the very beginning and some other dudes close by ready to leap down a ledge on to you.)

AND AGAIN EVEN IF IT TRULY WAS THE CASE THAT THE EXPERIENCE GOING TO HIM MEANT THAT YOU WERE GENUINELY STEALING IT FROM SOMEONE ELSE!

That entire line of thought assumes that it's completely not worthwhile to even attempt to level up Leonardo. I've given, hopefully, plenty of reason to keep him around as a valid member of your team, as a valuable tactical player to your offensive unit. Considering Marksman is pretty much the best end-game class in the entire game, and it's entirely possible to make Leonardo better than your boy Shinon without ever having to compete against him for playtime, experience spent on Leonardo is not a waste.

[Florete]

Although I don't personally see Leo as a great character, the whole argument of "stealing exp. from other units" is total bullshit unless talking about overleveled units, Jeigans, etc. If one plans on using a character, that character isn't "stealing" a single point of exp.

[Reikken]

It depends on what you mean by "stealing". Any combat exp anyone gets is less that's available to others, except in special cases (ex: Micaiah in 1-9).

She can't evade them and they kill her pretty easily, especially on Hard; what are you thinking of? At least Sothe can evade and Nolan can take a couple hits (along with numerous walls around the stage). The next chapter is filled with Mages too, which will beat her down senseless.

She can barely even kill them without a ton of handholding. Ilyana doesn't do too bad a job with handling them to be honest; Meg does a pretty bad job. Especially with an Iron Sword.

Someone like Reikken needs to give me exact numbers, I haven't played this in months.

1-4 and Meg?

On hard mode, everyone gets 2-rounded except Nolan and Sothe (and Micaiah and Laura, who get one-rounded). Meg gets doubled by all cats and some of the tigers. Getting doubled by a tiger means she gets one-rounded.

Tigers:

HP 41, Atk 26, AS 12, Hit 125, Avo 31, DEF 10, RES 2, Crit 7, Ddg 2

HP 40, Atk 24, AS 10, Hit 125, Avo 27, DEF 10, RES 2, Crit 7, Ddg 2

Cats:

HP 34, Atk 18, AS 14, Hit 128, Avo 34, DEF 8, RES 4, Crit 8, Ddg 1

HP 35, Atk 18, AS 14, Hit 128, Avo 34, DEF 8, RES 6, Crit 8, Ddg 1

Also lolwut @ using an iron sword. What happened to forging?

[Warrior of Dawn]

I'm not getting onvolved in any more arguments. It comes down to this: Me and sandmanccl will use Leo, and be happy to. You will use Shinon, and be happy to. Both groups walk away with a competant unit of the best class in the game. I still think Rolf is the best marksman though.

No matter which Marksman you choose, they'll be awesome. If you can be bothered to use Leo sometime, please do. I've used Shinon, Rolf and Leo in seperate PT's. I like Rolf and Leo. I don't like Shinon.

I try to use a unit before I judge them. next time you do a RD playthrough, why don't you attempt to use Leo? From the sounds of it, you haven't used him past Part 3. At least, that's the impression I got.

He's a tactically beneficial unit for the Dawn Brigade and can be brought up to Endgame quality, if you put the effort into him.

Also, this thing about Meg being doubled in 1-4. She's going to get doubled by cats, but the damage they do isn't great. Did you not notice the mystic jars of healing that dot the lower part? That's perfect for her. She won't be one-rounding anything (Who will?), but she's worth including. And a forged Iron Sword on Meg can be amazing. Especially if it's orange.