Skell_ Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 Since the game doesn't lock bows in any one class and the bow knight is an undeniably powerful unit due to canto, is it even worthwhile to go down the archer line when you can have your very own, Bootleg Bow Knight/Kenshi Knight with Canto immediately or the superior growths of another class? They no longer are just myrmidons with bows like in Fates as we now can just have myrmidons with bows. For reference, here are all the growths by class. https://serenesforest.net/three-houses/classes/growth-rates/ Some takeaways from it is that normal archers don't have bonuses to strength or speed. Snipers only get 5% more to strength. Pegasus knights, who can be made into bootleg Kenshi Knights, have a 10% to speed growth and access to canto. They also get Darting Blow, which also allows them to double easily. Cavaliers have less speed but more strength and bulk to compensate. Both of these classes also excel with lances, putting them into position to become Bow Knights at 30. Cavaliers also are just raking in Riding exp so if they use their bow enough, they have a bit more flexibility. Thief, mercenary, and brawler all have speed and strength bonuses. This trend generally continues when going into advanced classes but now the difference in growths in speed and strength are even greater for all of the Sniper's competition. Archers/Snipers learn Hit +20 and the unique art, Hunter's Volley. The only other thing going for them is Bow Range +1/+2. Their skills are quite mediocre and their growth rates have the typical sniper issues. The movement bonuses of mounted classes as well as canto give you most of the benefits of being a Bow Knight at Lvl 10 rather than 30. While +1/+2 range is nice, the majority of units are melee based and arts like Curved Shot can be used to give anyone +1 range if you really need it. Is the Archer line completely outclassed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silly Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 Archer classes have a few advantages. 1. You build bow rank the fastest in this class. Once you hit A bows you can start tutoring in other useful skills (authority, armor), so being an archer means you will be quicker to unlock other useful skill ranks. Lance rank is pretty irrelevant to the Bow Knight class, since the requirement is only C, which is built really quickly, so extra lance exp is kind of pointless when looking at class strengths. 2. Bow Range +1 is still important, because Curved Shot and most other combat arts cannot double, and generally if you do not double your opponent you will rarely, if ever, ORKO them. In addition, combat arts are only active on player phase. Archers (and Snipers) are generally the only units you will have that will be able to handle enemy archers and snipers on enemy phase. There are definitely times where you would ideally want to fight multiple enemies on EP, some of which are archers, and you can only do that with your own archer. 3. Sniper has Bowfaire. As a result, it deals significantly more damage with bows than any other advanced class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zapp Branniglenn Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 (edited) Extra range is huge. It's why people freak about about the relics that expand a magic user's range. You can shoot from a wider variety of locations, across impassable terrain to draw out or eliminate enemies early, or you can hit a specific weakened body part of a beast to inflict another stun. Sure other characters can curved shot for the extra range once in a while, but curved shot isn't an especially threatening move on its own. At best it picks up a kill on an enemy that's so surrounded by units nobody can get in range to hit him, yet he threatens to kill one of your units on enemy phase. Plus I assume only the bows specializing classes can operate ballistae in this game and those are often very helpful, at least in Golden Deer route. When I played the game, I gaffed and didn't work on Ignatz' riding skill as early as I could have, so he was stuck on Sniper for a bit, and still kicking ass. Bowfaire plus Hunter's volley turning all your weapons into brave bows is extremely good. If anything I feel bad for the dedicated paladins who suddenly feel un-specialized with their master class horse options requiring higher ranks in bows, armor, or magic compared to lances. Edited August 16, 2019 by Glennstavos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timon Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 10 minutes ago, Glennstavos said: If anything I feel bad for the dedicated paladins who suddenly feel un-specialized with their master class horse options requiring higher ranks in bows, armor, or magic compared to lances. tbh Paladins are just as good as master classes, I finished a run with Byleth and Sylvain mostly as Paladins and they were killing everything and unexpectedly VERY tanky, never had a problem with them. I'm actually pretty sure I've looked at promoting Sylvain into GK and he would've lost something in stat total. As for the topic at hand, I agree with the people above me, you don't have to just look at endgame stuff, you have to play the game before you get to endgame, and Archers are very useful. That said, Pegasus Knight is the best intermediate class, and giving them a Bow breaks the game. I had both Petra and Leonie as Pegasus archers, and I can't recommend it more (and you can decide later if you want to go Wyvern or Bow Knight). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skell_ Posted August 17, 2019 Author Share Posted August 17, 2019 I totally forgot bowfaire even existed for a second. The only issue with the damage from that is the fact that a high enough speed tends to outperform pure strength, as evidence by knights who tend to hit hard but rarely ORKO without a crit or brave weapon. Sadly, no archer line class has a speed increase. I suppose lances are fairly irrelevant for the most part, only due to the fact that if you're focusing on bows you're likely only going to use a lance to kill other bow users. 1 hour ago, Glennstavos said: If anything I feel bad for the dedicated paladins who suddenly feel un-specialized with their master class horse options requiring higher ranks in bows, armor, or magic compared to lances. I understand they're equally viable for endgame but I completely get where you're coming from. Psychologically it just messes with your mind knowing you're using unpromoted units. Promoting them out of Paladin is also a pain because you need to also dedicate yourself to either magic, which you can never use until you become a hybrid class, heavy armor which is either a dead skill or requires you to be an extremely slow Fortress Knight, or be a Bow Knight which is the easiest to do since you'll come with the Lance and Riding requirement and only need to train in bow beforehand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure the Scale Tipper Posted August 17, 2019 Share Posted August 17, 2019 25 minutes ago, Skell_ said: I totally forgot bowfaire even existed for a second. The only issue with the damage from that is the fact that a high enough speed tends to outperform pure strength, as evidence by knights who tend to hit hard but rarely ORKO without a crit or brave weapon. Sadly, no archer line class has a speed increase. I suppose lances are fairly irrelevant for the most part, only due to the fact that if you're focusing on bows you're likely only going to use a lance to kill other bow users. I understand they're equally viable for endgame but I completely get where you're coming from. Psychologically it just messes with your mind knowing you're using unpromoted units. Promoting them out of Paladin is also a pain because you need to also dedicate yourself to either magic, which you can never use until you become a hybrid class, heavy armor which is either a dead skill or requires you to be an extremely slow Fortress Knight, or be a Bow Knight which is the easiest to do since you'll come with the Lance and Riding requirement and only need to train in bow beforehand. I relate to this. With the Archer line specifically, Bow Knights are better than Snipers strictly because of Bow range +2 and their higher movement, as good as Hunter’s Volley is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skell_ Posted August 17, 2019 Author Share Posted August 17, 2019 If Bow Knight only had Range +1, it'd be a closer call but without that Bow Knight is always better. It feels like a straight upgrade as is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfen09 Posted August 17, 2019 Share Posted August 17, 2019 I will take movement and canto over range any day, easier to hit and run as well as blitz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zapp Branniglenn Posted August 17, 2019 Share Posted August 17, 2019 (edited) Anyway, if you have units you want to be dedicated archers, I don't think they'll be poorly served as Archers/Snipers at the level 10 and 20 tiers respectively. This isn't a case like how your gauntlet units should skip Brawler, for instance, when they'll get way more mileage as a brigand at that tier and learning the death blow skill. Death Blow plus Grappler's Fistfaire class skill pretty much has them set for mid game snowballing. And they should be working on their axe rank regardless since it eventually needs to be near A rank for the War Master class. Edited August 17, 2019 by Glennstavos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skell_ Posted August 17, 2019 Author Share Posted August 17, 2019 I think every physical attacker loves brigand and Pegasus knight if possible due to Death/Darting Blow. Hit +20 is generally a completely underwhelming skill which always feels like complete overkill that archers don't need with their massive skill growth. Brigands and Pegasus Knights also have better growths so long term that let them snowball as either heavy hitters or faster ranged attackers. While brigand doesn't help with later requirements pegasus knights do help with the lance requirement later. Sure, they're not getting nothing out of being an archer but they're not getting anything particularly interesting. When promoted into a bow knight, units with darting/death blow will be more useful more often than ones with Hit +20 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silly Posted August 17, 2019 Share Posted August 17, 2019 I find Hit +20 to specifically be really useful. If you need to attack from long range, you will often be facing sub-100 hit rates. 20 extra hit here goes a long way. Also, some enemies are fairly dodgy, and your other units will be facing 70ish hit against them. Bow units are the most reliable way to get rid of them, since Hit +20 turns a sometimes kill into a very close to guaranteed kill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cysx Posted August 17, 2019 Share Posted August 17, 2019 There are alternatives for sure, but archer and sniper aren't bad bow classes. Cavalier/Paladin has even less speed unless dismounted, fliers won't want to face other archers, and other foot units... it varies. Frankly for the most part anyone wants to go Brigand as said above, bow users included. But while it's no Deathblow, I do think +20 hit is actually really useful. First, a high Dex growth is meaningless, as Dex barely gives accuracy, and there are quite a few weapons in this game with very low hit, which become much more useful with that skill in hand. It also allows very long range sniping with Hawkeye, since -60 accuracy is a lot. It will rarely kill anything but is still a pretty good option to have. Even at just 3 range it helps a lot. +1 range also means they'll assist in battle much more often, which is decently useful normally, but makes a pretty big difference for gambits and with + damage supports. Now is Bow knight superior, absolutely, but it is a master class and all. 12 hours ago, Glennstavos said: Plus I assume only the bows specializing classes can operate ballistae in this game No, I'm pretty sure anyone with the appropriate Bow rank can. A majority of classes at the very least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
virtu333 Posted August 17, 2019 Share Posted August 17, 2019 I think it's good to have a mix - usually 1 strong archer to take on enemy packs with 2+ range, and the rest be the more mobile units. With that said, it is also kind of fun to run a squad of snipers in the midgame and just decimate everything in stride push without worrying about counters (just snipe down gambit users) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skell_ Posted August 17, 2019 Author Share Posted August 17, 2019 A mix would actually be quite nice as you can have a nice line of a melee unit, whatever unit with a bow, and an archer/sniper that can maximize your damage against a singular enemy. Completely overkill when I put it that way but maybe a streak of bad luck can be fixed that way. Maybe one archer is good but the rest can just be bow using pegasus kngihts or whatnot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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