Fire Emblem Heroes - Special Heroes (Familial Festivities)

[Nym]

6 minutes ago, eclipse said:

They aren't meant to redefine the meta (usually).  They're so that everyone gets something to show for the event, assuming they participate in it.  If the best unit was the TT, then what incentive is there to pull for those that look for power creep?

I'm aware most of them are never going to outshine any 5 stars or anything like that unless they have their own role with a PRF right from the start like Aversa. However, as I said before, if one of our rewards for playing a gamemode that is a pain to deal with for the vast majority of players are free units that aren't very good, people are not going to want to play this game more outside of free resources which is kind of a bad business model.

14 minutes ago, eclipse said:

And if Tobin is any indication, it means that they're up for unique weapons in the future.

I don't want to be pessimistic or anything. But there's only so much that a refine can do for a unit. Unless they pulled something they never done before (like giving -Attack effect to Selena and Henry). But sometimes, it's just not enough.

Sometimes you get Brave Ike's refine, sometimes you get Takumi's or Frederick's.

[eclipse]

1 minute ago, Nym said:

I'm aware most of them are never going to outshine any 5 stars or anything like that unless they have their own role with a PRF right from the start like Aversa. However, as I said before, if one of our rewards for playing a gamemode that is a pain to deal with for the vast majority of players are free units that aren't very good, people are not going to want to play this game more outside of free resources which is kind of a bad business model.

I don't want to be pessimistic or anything. But there's only so much that a refine can do for a unit. Unless they pulled something they never done before (like giving -Attack effect to Selena and Henry). But sometimes, it's just not enough.

Sometimes you get Brave Ike's refine, sometimes you get Takumi's or Frederick's.

The refines are catching up to the times.  Remember Jakob?  He requires at least two specific units to shine (preferably three), but get them together, and it's hilarious.  Thing is, no one's shouting from the rooftops how amazing he is. . .because I doubt too many people will build him.  Or really put in the effort to make him as crazy as he could be.  Which means it's up to you to make or break a unit.

The early refines (Takumi/Titania come to mind) will be far less OP than the new ones.  But I'm positive that whatever refines we get, it won't be so bad that the unit is unusable.

[XRay]

1 hour ago, Nym said:

Yet the recent grail units with PRF weapons are considered to be the best for combat: Aversa, Brunnya, Fallen Delthea, Izuki, Naesala. Only Winter Cecilia shines despite her lack of PRF weapon but that's due to her class and daggers having a variety of choices to both offense or defense.

Aversa is a support unit. Combat wise, she is nothing special.

Brunnya's and DW!Delthea's default tome are for cheap convenience, NOT performance. You still want to switch to a Blade tomes for performance if you want to invest in them.

Itsuki is not that different from any other Enemy Phase sword unit. Unless you can show me the numbers that he is actually significantly better than other Grail units, I do not think he is anything special. His exclusive Weapon offers neither buff nullification, debuff nullification, Special prevention, nor Quick Riposte.

Naesala is nice.

GOW!Cecilia is not bad, but I do not think she is that great either. She is difficult use due to her mobility issues.

1 hour ago, Nym said:

The problem with your comparison is that you compare two units who are pretty much use as a Enemy Phase unit

Then do not use them as Enemy Phase units. It is expensive to build units that way and they have flier weakness. They have a perfectly useable Atk stat and flier mobility for Player Phase. Players forcing an unsuitable role on their units is the players' problem, not the units.

1 hour ago, Nym said:

The problem with your comparison is that you compare two units who are pretty much use as a Enemy Phase unit that both focus on defense with no PRF weapon and no assets versus a unit that has a PRF Brave Axe that can either decide to get even more Attack or get a Panic refine and can have a +Attack Asset. Of course they are going to suck compare to Cherche with just a regular Brave Axe, even with Gerome's higher attack.

But even comparing them to the likes of Beruka or Narcian isn't doing them much justice either. With her refine, Beruka can use Forteress Def/Res 3 or DD4 and be an amazing tank that can tank both physical and magic foes (decently). Narcian is even better in that regard, and he has yet to get a refine.

Even if you compare them Enemy Phase wise, Gerome and Haar are definitely better than Beruka due to having better Atk. You do not need Exclusive Weapons to work well. People need to stop and actually do their homework on the calculator before claiming any unit is ruined by not having an exclusive Weapon or not being able to access natures.

I do not see the point of Distant Def if the unit cannot counter attack, and running Distant Counter-Iote's Shield is not worth it in my opinion when another movement class can do Distant Counter without a need of a Shield skill to fix a glaring weakness.

Challengers List: Against Hard List, no ranged enemies. Both sides +10. Challengers have 3/3/3/3 spur buffs and Breath effect. Enemies have 6/6/6/6 bonus buffs, but it does not matter with Dull Close.

Spoiler

CHALLENGER LIST  
Beruka (5*+10 +atk)  
Weapon: Beruka's Axe  
Special: Bonfire  
A: Mirror Stance 3  
B: Dull Close 3  
S: Quick Riposte 3  
Upgrade Path: 5  
  
Gerome (5*+10)  
Weapon: Rearguard+  
Special: Ignis  
A: Mirror Stance 3  
B: Dull Close 3  
S: Quick Riposte 3  
Upgrade Path: 4  
  
Haar (5*+10)  
Weapon: Rearguard+  
Special: Ignis  
A: Mirror Stance 3  
B: Dull Close 3  
S: Quick Riposte 3  
Upgrade Path: 4  

 

1 hour ago, Nym said:

So unless suddently IS create "adaptive defense" for a new skill or refine, those two are always going to be behind those units.

So why is it okay for new units to suck but not Grail or demote units to suck? Why judge Grail and demote units so harshly when new units are hardly better?

Edited March 18, 2020 by XRay

[King Marth 64]

I noticed when I was rewatching the trailer that Fae looked like she's had grown a little bit taller than her previous two alts had, was she bit taller than her previous alts or is just me?

I definitely knew Est and almost close about Bartre (still the older version instead of the younger version) were going to be here, I did heard some were expecting Fir to show up. I didn't expect Narcian, Idunn, and Fae were going to be here as well.

By the way, doesn't Idunn and Fae's Duo Skill looked like it's taking away all weakness affects more than just Dragon and Armor type for a bit or is it just possibly just taking away the weakness affect for Dragon and Armor type only?

[Ice Dragon]

7 hours ago, Nym said:

The problem with your comparison is that you compare two units who are pretty much use as Enemy Phase unita that both focus on defense with no PRF weapon and no assets versus a unit that has a PRF Brave Axe that can either decide to get even more Attack or get a Panic refine and can have a +Attack Asset. Of course they are going to suck compare to Cherche with just a regular Brave Axe, even with Gerome's higher attack.

No, there is no problem with that comparison. Just because a unit isn't the best at a role doesn't mean it can't perform that role competently. Yes, it's obvious Cherche is going to do the job better, but the point was that they are still perfectly viable when you actually run the numbers.

 

6 hours ago, King Marth 64 said:

I noticed when I was rewatching the trailer that Fae looked like she's had grown a little bit taller than her previous two alts had, was she bit taller than her previous alts or is just me?

The overarching anime style is not in any way uniform in its use of proportions. Different artists have different styles, so the same character can look taller or shorter when drawn by different artists. For a more egregious case of the same thing, just compare the characters in Overlord with the exact same characters in Isekai Quartet.

 

6 hours ago, King Marth 64 said:

By the way, doesn't Idunn and Fae's Duo Skill looked like it's taking away all weakness affects more than just Dragon and Armor type for a bit or is it just possibly just taking away the weakness affect for Dragon and Armor type only?

It's only dragon and armor. Myrrh gets the same dragon and armor icons despite being a flying unit instead of an armor unit.

[Nowi's Husband]

505 Orbs got me Sping Fae along with these pitybreakers: Fallen Celica, Eyvel, Female Byleth, Echoes Catria, Spring Narcian, regular Idunn, and 3 Nahs.  Nah being the one I was saving for, this was very favorable.  Only 3 merges to go.

[eclipse]

Stat-wise

Spoiler

Narcian is Heath with a better stat distribution, who can also get natures.  Not that I'm complaining, because Heath can bait some of the lower-Atk mages with ease.

VERY tempted to pull for a second one, because Travant can make excellent use of that lance.

 

[XRay]

8 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

It's only dragon and armor. Myrrh gets the same dragon and armor icons despite being a flying unit instead of an armor unit.

I wonder if that status effect counts as buff that will help activate things like Arrival of the Brave Ephraim's axe and other skills and Weapons like that.

[Ice Dragon]

3 hours ago, XRay said:

I wonder if that status effect counts as buff that will help activate things like Arrival of the Brave Ephraim's axe and other skills and Weapons like that.

It shouldn't. The wording of Garm's effect specifically says bonuses and increased movement, and we already have Divine Fang, which doesn't activate Garm's effect.

However, Idunn's Duo effect also applies +6 Def/Res to all affected units, so unless Ephraim is Panicked, Garm will still activate from the bonuses.

Edited March 18, 2020 by Ice Dragon

[Diovani Bressan]

Hm... Even though Est nullifies penalties during combat, Gunnthrá's Blizzard still get the extra Atk from the penalties.

[Zeo]

14 minutes ago, Diovani Bressan said:

Hm... Even though Est nullifies penalties during combat, Gunnthrá's Blizzard still get the extra Atk from the penalties.

That can't be right. Matthew wasn't getting bonuses against her when they fought in the Paralouge.

[Diovani Bressan]

1 hour ago, Zeo said:

That can't be right. Matthew wasn't getting bonuses against her when they fought in the Paralouge.

Here's a video that I just did. I even used debuffs on Atk and Spd, so her Res wouldn't be affected. Even with a debuff on Atk, Est still does the same damage against Gunnthrá, but Gunnthrá gets a Atk boost from Est's debuffs.

 

[Azuni]

13 hours ago, Diovani Bressan said:

Even with a debuff on Atk, Est still does the same damage against Gunnthrá, but Gunnthrá gets a Atk boost from Est's debuffs.

Double checked and can confirm Diovani's evidence.

This has been a known thing for a while. The debuff neutralization from Bond4 (and now for these new weapons) removes the debuffs after those "Grants bonus to unit's Atk = total penalties on foe during combat" type effects add their values to the appropriate stats.

The bizarre part is Est2/Bartre2/Narcian2 and Idunn2's (Idunn/Idunn2/Brunnya/Shannan/LChrom) weapons are coded differently, since Est's debuff neutralizer allows Blizzard effects to gain damage via a chill/etc, while Idunn's does not. Checked with some other people and even the Japanese text has differences.

I guess we can treat these new weapons (Est2/Narcian2/Bartre2) as an improvement over the Bond4s, since their condition is far more lenient.

[eclipse]

2 hours ago, Azuni said:

The bizarre part is Est2/Bartre2/Narcian2 and Idunn2's (Idunn/Idunn2/Brunnya/Shannan/LChrom) weapons are coded differently, since Est's debuff neutralizer allows Blizzard effects to gain damage via a chill/etc, while Idunn's does not. Checked with some other people and even the Japanese text has differences.

Do you mind posting the Japanese text for those effects?  Kind of curious to see if something was lost in translation.

[SoulWeaver]

In late, but am I the only one who thought Idunn's voice sounded kind of weird? Also, if @DLNarshen isn't the one to do the Analysis Thread on Spring Narcian it shouldn't be done - the man's shown he's clearly the expert on this most glorious of men, and now most glorious of rabbits.

[Diovani Bressan]

In comparison to my previous video, that checks Blizzard against Eagle's Egg, here's checking Blizzard against Fimbulvetr.

@eclipse According to BoaFerox, both seem to use 弱化を無効, which is "nullifies penalties".

 

[eclipse]

28 minutes ago, Diovani Bressan said:

 

@eclipse According to BoaFerox, both seem to use 弱化を無効, which is "nullifies penalties".

And yet they seem to behave differently?  That is really weird.

[Azuni]

@eclipse

The notable difference found was the ones that block Broadleaf-esque boosts (Idunn/Idunn2/Brunnya/Shannan/LChrom) all have 無効化する, which according to person who checked the jp text, said it's roughly "completely made invalid." 

On the other hand, the Spring Est/Narcian/Bartre weapons that neutralize debuffs say 無効 instead, which is apparently just "negate." This set of characters also appears in Bond4 debuff neutralizing text, and we already knew from 6 months ago that Bond4s don't stop Broadleaf/Blizzard.

https://www.reddit.com/r/FireEmblemHeroes/comments/cyk7d6/inconsistent_behavior_of_atkres_bond_4_vs_demonic/

The strange part is that Idunn2 is the only one of the top set of five that uses 戦闘中 (during combat) instead of 戦闘開始時 (start of combat), which would indicate that Idunn2's effect shouldn't block Broadleaf.
This is just a guess from the translator, but he believes that they hired a different writer for Idunn2, otherwise her text would be identical to the top set of units.

[eclipse]

23 minutes ago, Azuni said:

@eclipse

The notable difference found was the ones that block Broadleaf-esque boosts (Idunn/Idunn2/Brunnya/Shannan/LChrom) all have 無効化する, which according to person who checked the jp text, said it's roughly "completely made invalid." 

On the other hand, the Spring Est/Narcian/Bartre weapons that neutralize debuffs say 無効 instead, which is apparently just "negate." This set of characters also appears in Bond4 debuff neutralizing text, and we already knew from 6 months ago that Bond4s don't stop Broadleaf/Blizzard.

https://www.reddit.com/r/FireEmblemHeroes/comments/cyk7d6/inconsistent_behavior_of_atkres_bond_4_vs_demonic/

The strange part is that Idunn2 is the only one of the top set of five that uses 戦闘中 (during combat) instead of 戦闘開始時 (start of combat), which would indicate that Idunn2's effect shouldn't block Broadleaf.
This is just a guess from the translator, but he believes that they hired a different writer for Idunn2, otherwise her text would be identical to the top set of units.

I can see the difference, but my reasoning will most likely suck, since the nitty-gritty of Japanese grammar isn't my specialty.  Would like someone better versed (whether it be in the details of FEH's calculations or Japanese grammar) in such nuances to chime in.

If I'm reading this right, the new Spring neutralizers merely get rid of the penalty of the debuff.  It doesn't get rid of the debuff itself - that's Idunn's wording.  So the debuff exists, but the "your stats go down" part doesn't.  For Idunn's group, it flat-out goes after the debuff and makes it so that it didn't happen.  Perhaps this will explain why Blizzard acts differently between the two.

(or perhaps I can GET the person who wields Blizzard in my barracks one day)

[Diovani Bressan]

@Azuni @eclipse

Yeah. I also tested Saizo against Est and against Brunnya. Just to remember what Saizo's Star does:

Grants bonus to Atk/Spd/Def/Res during combat = current penalty on each of target's stats. Calculates each stat bonus independently.

• Against a Brunnya with Atk-7, Saizo will not get Atk+7 during combat.
• Against a Spring Est with Atk-7, Saizo will get Atk+7 during combat.

[eclipse]

1 minute ago, Diovani Bressan said:

@Azuni @eclipse

Yeah. I also tested Saizo against Est and against Brunnya. Just to remember what Saizo's Star does:

Grants bonus to Atk/Spd/Def/Res during combat = current penalty on each of target's stats. Calculates each stat bonus independently.

• Against a Brunnya with Atk-7, Saizo will not get Atk+7 during combat.
• Against a Spring Est with Atk-7, Saizo will get Atk+7 during combat.

This is helpful!  So the new Spring stuff doesn't get rid of debuffs per se, just the stat reduction.  Since the debuff itself exists (as Atk -7), Saizo gets his attack bonus.  Meanwhile, Brunya says "no your debuff doesn't exist because I said so", which makes Saizo sad.  Thanks~!

I hope they do a better job of wording these in the future.  Or explain it in a video or something.

[Ice Dragon]

@Azuni @eclipse

Here are all of the Japanese texts and as literal of a translation as I can make:

Bond 4:

味方と隣接している時、戦闘中、自身の[stat]、[stat]＋7、かつ[stat]、[stat]の弱化を無効
When adjacent to an ally, during combat, own [stat] and [stat] +7 and penalties to [stat] and [stat] nullified.

Demonic Breath / Fimbulvetr:

戦闘開始時、自身が不利な状態異常を受けている、または、自身のHPが99％以下の時、戦闘中、自身の弱化を無効化し、攻撃、速さ、守備、魔防＋4
At the start of combat, when self is afflicted with a negative status condition or when own HP is less than or equal to 99%, during combat, own penalties are made null and Atk, Spd, Def, and Res +4.

Fimbulvetr has braces around "negative status condition", but is otherwise identical.

Balmung:

敵から攻撃された時、または敵のHPが100％で戦闘開始時、戦闘中、自身の弱化を無効化し、攻撃、速さ、守備、魔防＋5
When attacked by enemy or when enemy's HP is 100% at the start of combat, during combat, own penalties are made null and Atk, Spd, Def, and Res +5.

Randgridr:

敵のHPが100％で戦闘開始時、戦闘中、自身の弱化を無効化し、敵の攻撃、守備－6
When enemy's HP is 100% at the start of combat, during combat, own penalties are made null and enemy's Atk and Def -6.

Eagle's Egg:

周囲2マス以内に味方がいる時、戦闘中、自身の攻撃、速さ、守備、魔防＋5、かつ弱化を無効
When there is an ally within 2 spaces, during combat, own Atk, Spd, Def, and Res +5 and penalties nullified.

Carrot Cudgel / Gilt Fork:

周囲2マス以内に味方がいる時、戦闘中、自身の攻撃、守備＋5、かつ攻撃、守備の弱化を無効
When there is an ally within 2 spaces, during combat, own Atk and Def +5 and penalties to Atk and Def nullified.

Zephyr Breath:

自身が強化（応援、鼓舞等）を受けている、または周囲2マス以内に味方がいる時、戦闘中、自身の弱化を無効化し、敵の攻撃－6、敵は追撃不可
When self has received bonuses (Rally, Hone) or when there is an ally within 2 spaces, during combat, own penalties are made null and enemy's Atk -6 and enemy cannot perform a follow-up attack.

 

Conclusion: 弱化を無効, "penalties nullified", is used when it is the last effect in the sentence and 弱化を無効化し, "penalties are made null and" is used when it is not the last effect in the sentence.

[eclipse]

@Ice Dragon huh, this opens up yet another possibility.  Thanks for the text!

Now, for whoever does the testing on this - can you confirm if Bond4 behaves the same way as the new Spring weapons?  Perhaps there's a bit more subtlety after all!

[XRay]

I think we should make a note of the debuff nullification inconsistency in Heroes Analysis so it is easier to find in the future, since the language in the skill description is not really clear. It is good info to know, so players will have a better understanding of what is going on. I am still trying to wrap my head around it.

[eclipse]

55 minutes ago, XRay said:

I think we should make a note of the debuff nullification inconsistency in Heroes Analysis so it is easier to find in the future, since the language in the skill description is not really clear. It is good info to know, so players will have a better understanding of what is going on. I am still trying to wrap my head around it.

Definitely.  I've put forth my theory earlier in the topic.  Assuming that the Bond skills behave in the same way as the new Spring ones, then my best guess is that the "and then more stuff happens after the debuff nullification" is the difference between the debuff's stat drop being cancelled versus the entire debuff disappearing.  This is beginning to become as complicated as Yu-Gi-Oh! card wordings. ;/