FE5 Tier List

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

All that stuff is why he's already there. Non S-rank tier lists are usually based on efficiency and Saphy's utility affects turn count more than Othin and if not used for Warping, there's still repairing awesome weapons like the Brave Axe, Thief Staff and lots of other items I'm too lazy to list because doing so is unnecessary and has been said a million times already >_>.

The point is though you guys want Saphy to have her own tier. Now I understand we're trying to shave off as much turns as possible with this tier list and if warpskipping is assumed in this list then yes, Saphy is #1. But not counting warpskipping, I think Othin has the upper hand here, it's like saying Lena should be in top tier in a H5 Non-Warp tierlist just because she gets a repair staff with TEN uses that's exclusive to her.

[Salad Utensil]

The point is though you guys want Saphy to have her own tier. Now I understand we're trying to shave off as much turns as possible with this tier list and if warpskipping is assumed in this list then yes, Saphy is #1. But not counting warpskipping, I think Othin has the upper hand here, it's like saying Lena should be in top tier in a H5 Non-Warp tierlist just because she gets a repair staff with TEN uses that's exclusive to her.

Try playing this game non-elite without using the warp-staff or any staff past C, while never reseting nor RNG abusing or repairing any weapon and then post again. Yeah...good luck. And if you are a masochist, restart the whole game whenever Leif dies in addition to the above.

Edited April 18, 2010 by Brighton

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

Try playing this game non-elite without using the warp-staff or any staff past C, while never reseting nor RNG abusing or repairing any weapon and then post again. Yeah...good luck

There's a difference between warpskipping and using the warp staff as utility such as recruiting Pahn and not having Tina waste that Thief staff along with getting the Dragon Lance and resire. I know the C+ rank staves are a must in this game.

Edited April 18, 2010 by Joey

[Salad Utensil]

There's a difference between warpskipping and using the warp staff as utility, I know the C+ rank staves are a must in this game.

I have a feeling you've never played the second half of this game

What's the difference? You warpskip to make an unfairly difficult/annoying chapters doable. Warp-skipping is almost a must for FE5 while its just a tool for speed-runners in other games. Even so why must you play through an annoying chapter if its completely avoidable? Why not save like 80 turns of grief and just skip it?

Edit: I see you added stuff to your post. Realize that warp, B staff, and repair utility can extend beyond 12X as well. And doesn't your post just reaffirm that Saphy is so much better than other characters that she should get her own tier?

Edited April 18, 2010 by Brighton

[Scarlet]

Not adding anything to the "should Saphy get her own tier" discussion, but I want to adress something else:

There's a difference between warpskipping and using the warp staff as utility such as recruiting Pahn and not having Tina waste that Thief staff along with getting the Dragon Lance and resire.

Actually, getting Resire is pretty easy.

I never got the Dragon Lance so far, but I always got Resire, and I didn't use warp for it. Basically, I just had some killfaces like Othin get rid of those armor knight dudes that enter the city, and then sent Dean out there to capture the priests for their heal staves and visit the village afterwards (the range of the ballistae does not extend to a part of the area south and south-east of the city walls, which is where the Resire village is located). Even if Dean is doing something else (like killing enemies or getting the Dragon Lance), I think Eda or Karin would be just as capable of getting Resire, as I didn't have Dean actually fight anyone on his way there. I know some dragon knight reinforcements appear two or three turns before the end of the chapter, but they always went for the dudes in the city and ignored Dean completely (and even if they'd decide to go for him - they start so far away, whatever unit you sent there could probably still just avoid them).

EDIT: Fixed a typo.

Edited April 18, 2010 by Raymond

[Colonel M]

Sorry, I haven't really played this game, but I'm just going to throw my opinion.

I believe that, in order for Saphy to get her own tier, we'd have to assume that we're doing the Warspkip stuff, in which case she would be primarily the reason that we are saving an astronomical amount of turncounts. If we don't assume warpskipping within this tier list, then I think it's okay for her to stay within the Top Tier people.

Just throwing my tyrannic opinion out here.

[Dat Nick]

Saphy's position in the first place implies warpskipping.

[Salad Utensil]

Sorry, I haven't really played this game, but I'm just going to throw my opinion.

I believe that, in order for Saphy to get her own tier, we'd have to assume that we're doing the Warspkip stuff, in which case she would be primarily the reason that we are saving an astronomical amount of turncounts. If we don't assume warpskipping within this tier list, then I think it's okay for her to stay within the Top Tier people.

Just throwing my tyrannic opinion out here.

Even if you don't warp skip chapters, warp is almost necessary to successfully complete a lot of chapters quickly with minimal casualties. I mean in the SSS run on youtube, not all chapters were warp skipped and most of the chapters that were warp skipped would have been ridiculous to complete with just leaf walking to the throne normally. Chapter 17A (actually all chapters with Cyas' 10 leadership stars of death) comes to mind, Chapter 12 and 12X as well. Warp in general just makes things a lot easier in chapters 12+, unless you are willing to do riskier maneuvers involving RNG abuse. Even besides warp, Safy carries B staff utility until likely chapter 16 when Salem is even able to reach B. Silence and Rescue has a lot of important use too, especially against bosses carrying powerful long ranged tomes that can make things painful. Watch the 24X video and image how painful it would be to complete without rewarp, warp, and rescue staves. YayMarsha's SSS run videos 24X part 1 and 2:

Safy also has Hammerne which is necessary to repair those 3 uses of warp you have until you steal it from the dark bishop in chapter 17A. She also has a monopoly on healing to help you complete chapter 3 faster and right off the bat has access to physic to heal from anywhere. Two healers are always appreciated in early-mid game and Nanna likely will never be able to access C staves anyway.

Edited April 18, 2010 by Brighton

[Don Draper]

I'd be interested in trying to make this a ranked list, with a ranking of "A" in mind. I was comparing Aquilae's current playthrough with China FE's AAA playthrough which they did in 230 turns. An A ranking requires 299 turns, giving an extra leeway of 69 turns. So far, Aquilae still has about another 18 turns of leeway for the remainder of his playthrough. If most of his turn counts do not deviate too much from China FE's, I think we can safety say that an A ranking is possible without RNG abuse.

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

I'd be interested in trying to make this a ranked list, with a ranking of "A" in mind. I was comparing Aquilae's current playthrough with China FE's AAA playthrough which they did in 230 turns. An A ranking requires 299 turns, giving an extra leeway of 69 turns. So far, Aquilae still has about another 18 turns of leeway for the remainder of his playthrough. If most of his turn counts do not deviate too much from China FE's, I think we can safety say that an A ranking is possible without RNG abuse.

I'd say A is pretty fair.

AAA is just WAY too much effort and RNG abuse/luck.

[Salad Utensil]

I'd be interested in trying to make this a ranked list, with a ranking of "A" in mind. I was comparing Aquilae's current playthrough with China FE's AAA playthrough which they did in 230 turns. An A ranking requires 299 turns, giving an extra leeway of 69 turns. So far, Aquilae still has about another 18 turns of leeway for the remainder of his playthrough. If most of his turn counts do not deviate too much from China FE's, I think we can safety say that an A ranking is possible without RNG abuse.

I think A rank sounds like the best goal to strive for in a tier list devouted to Thracia since it still prioritizes efficiency, but without insane amounts of warp staff abuse.

However isn't Aquilae not recruiting Xavier? I think that means he only gets 269 turns the finish the game and still maintain an A rank.

Edited April 19, 2010 by Brighton

[Don Draper]

Well, Aquilae's run wouldn't be a definite example of an A rank playthrough for that reason (and because he isn't going to 24x). However, I don't think it would be unreasonable to use the China FE AAA run turncounts for those chapters in place of Aquilae's.

http://www.pegasusknight.com/mb/fe5/ct_index.html

[Dat Nick]

Then I think B might be a better idea for that reason (turncounts between that and A without deaths is basically the same), just because not everybody is going to want to recruit Xavier and his dipshit ass. Or Marty McFly, for that matter.

Or, if you made part for A rank normally but killed off somebody then just pretend it says A.

[Don Draper]

Well, the time saved not recruiting Xavier and Eyvel is probably equal to about 30 turns, the difference between AA rank and A rank. Therefore, you would probably have an A rank anyways as you'd have the turncount for AA, but then drop down to A due to not recruiting those characters.

Edited April 20, 2010 by IOS

[dondon151]

Then I think B might be a better idea for that reason (turncounts between that and A without deaths is basically the same), just because not everybody is going to want to recruit Xavier and his dipshit ass. Or Marty McFly, for that matter.

Or, if you made part for A rank normally but killed off somebody then just pretend it says A.

Hey, let's just erase that 5 in the hundreds place for turn count and pretend it says 2.

[grandjackal]

So I noticed Shanam's above Eda.

When did being useless with a gimmick skill we will never need and joining later outdo flying transportation for a nice portion of the game?

[Don Draper]

I agree with Eda>Shanam. Eda saves turncounts (especially in Chapters 15 and 17). Shanam does not, and Bargain is pretty much useless considering you won't be buying much thanks to Capture.

Anyways, I need to talk to Mekkah about making this an A rank tier list. I'd also be interested in taking ownership of the list if Mekkah doesn't want it anymore.

[Dat Nick]

Hey, let's just erase that 5 in the hundreds place for turn count and pretend it says 2.

Hey, how about you actually address the issue presented (which is Xavier, and let's be honest, he's more trouble than he's worth just to satisfy silly rankings, even though IOS kinda already did) instead of being completely non-constructive.

The whole concept behind an Efficiency list (though i guess this is becoming ranked) is the counter-productivity of ranks, i.e hoarding gems/stat boosters/promo items, unrealistically penalizing Dart for the Ocean Seal, etc. I don't see how this is any different.

Also, I think it's rather stupid to have the exact same tier list on two different forums, so my vote would go to "do as you please".

Edited April 20, 2010 by Detective Badd

[Colonel M]

And to think, two years ago Xavier was Top Tier.

Hey, how about you actually address the issue presented (which is Xavier, and let's be honest, he's more trouble than he's worth just to satisfy silly rankings, even though IOS kinda already did) instead of being completely non-constructive.

Perhaps dondon / IOS somehow see that Xavier can be used as a positive despite your cramping on Xavier altogether. Being able to use Brave / Master weapons. He also starts with C Swords, which grants him the capability of using King Sword. Xavier at least has good offense, given the right tools. I would at least think that, somehow, even if you were to impend a negative on him recruitment-wise that there are ways to make up for it.

He's also not being completely non-constructive with the point. Assuming that we are actually following with an A Rank in mind (and keep in mind for those who haven't played the game that there are no funds / exp rank, so it's not a stupidly ranked type of gameplay), that would mean that we are following the criteria for it. In particular: 270-299 or 250-269, accounting that one character is dead (for the sake of argument, we'll say Olwen). While it's likely possible to A Rank the game in 250 turns, Xavier still awards us a 20 turn buffer, up to 30 even. This suddenly doesn't mean that we are playing inefficiently, but I can safely say that Xavier does not take a grand total of 20-30 turns just to recruit him. His main point is how absurd the thought of the whole "pretending B is A".

I am not suddenly saying that Xavier is some God who walks on the earth and destroys everything around him, but I'd argue that he is not of negative utility whatsoever. Assuming A Rank also doesn't mean massive (or any) warpskipping, I can even make an argument of warping Xavier down the middle of something, provided it isn't a mass abundance of Mages and Hammer enemies, and have him take out annoying threats such as Ballitsae. He's even got the same move ffs (wow... IS didn't screw that one up) as some of your foot units, so his movement discrepancy isn't even that huge. It's even difficult to fatigue him thanks to his 38 HP, so he can participate in some maps consecutively without major harm.

I won't speak about Xavier after this, or anything else with this game, until I play it. So consider this my last word for the moment.

Edited April 20, 2010 by Colonel M

[dondon151]

Hey, how about you actually address the issue presented (which is Xavier, and let's be honest, he's more trouble than he's worth just to satisfy silly rankings, even though IOS kinda already did) instead of being completely non-constructive.

How about you stop avoiding points that are damaging to your argument? "Pretending" that a B rank is an A rank is a laughable notion - I couldn't resist poking fun at it.

The whole concept behind an Efficiency list (though i guess this is becoming ranked) is the counter-productivity of ranks, i.e hoarding gems/stat boosters/promo items, unrealistically penalizing Dart for the Ocean Seal, etc. I don't see how this is any different.

I agree that having to recruit all characters is counterproductive to turn count, but it always bothered me that when you're comparing all obtainable characters in the game, it's assumed that some of them don't even exist.

[Mekkah]

I agree with Eda>Shanam. Eda saves turncounts (especially in Chapters 15 and 17). Shanam does not, and Bargain is pretty much useless considering you won't be buying much thanks to Capture.

Anyways, I need to talk to Mekkah about making this an A rank tier list. I'd also be interested in taking ownership of the list if Mekkah doesn't want it anymore.

You can take it if you want, I'm not attached to it and I can still express tyranny on the FEG copies if I get the urge to.

[Dat Nick]

I am not suddenly saying that Xavier is some God who walks on the earth and destroys everything around him, but I'd argue that he is not of negative utility whatsoever.

Is Xavier able to save the amount of turns you spend wasting him (completely disregarding the luck factor)?

The answer is "no". All the hubbub about how he can be "relatively not as bad" as bottom tier is irrelevant. He's not negative utility because he's a shitty godawful unit, he's negative utility because he's unable to give back what you cost him. Who cares that he can kick ass with a master lance, btw? If you CAN'T be awesome with a master lance, you're freaking hopeless. Xavier actually has such crappy skill I wouldn't trust him with a Master Lance.

ow about you stop avoiding points that are damaging to your argument? "Pretending" that a B rank is an A rank is a laughable notion - I couldn't resist poking fun at it.

Avoiding what? I confronted the issue head on-assuming that a recruiting a dumbshit character who does nothing for the army to justify his cost will always be recruited when he impacts a direct negative on the team is every bit as laughable as assuming Dart will never be promoted or Farina will never be recruited.

btw, ignoring ranks altogether is a laughable notion. All this idea of mine does is eliminate the silly need to keep morons who cost more than they give back alive and recruited eeeevvverrrryyyy single time. Explain how it's any different than ignoring the counter-productivity of ranks. hint; it's not, because it's exactly the same as ignoring the counter-productivity of ranks

but it always bothered me that when you're comparing all obtainable characters in the game, it's assumed that some of them don't even exist.

And some of the time they will not exist. Shanan, Miranda, Cyas, Sety, etc. will not always exist. We're already at the standard where every character does not exist all the time, I don't see what this changes. It's not like Xavier won't always exist, but it's completely silly to assume he always will.

Edited April 20, 2010 by Detective Badd

[Colonel M]

If you CAN'T be awesome with a master lance, you're freaking hopeless. Xavier actually has such crappy skill I wouldn't trust him with a Master Lance.

Taken from Serenes:

E Lances

C Swords

A Axes and Bows

He can't use Master Lance period. By the way, if "hit" is part of the problem, King Sword offers Charisma along with 70 base Hit. Brave Bow has 95 Base Hit as well.

Edited April 20, 2010 by Colonel M

[Narga_Rocks]

Taken from Serenes:

E Lances

C Swords

A Axes and Bows

He can't use Master Lance period. By the way, if "hit" is part of the problem, King Sword offers Charisma along with 70 base Hit. Brave Bow has 95 Base Hit as well.

The bow is a good point. 95 hits seems cool if that's the bow without his skill. As for the King Sword, Charisma only works on everyone else, it doesn't work on the unit with Charisma, I think. It's not like stars in fe4.

[Colonel M]

The bow is a good point. 95 hits seems cool if that's the bow without his skill. As for the King Sword, Charisma only works on everyone else, it doesn't work on the unit with Charisma, I think. It's not like stars in fe4.

Ah, my mistake with the Charisma bit. Still, he also does come pre-equipped with a leadership star, but at that point the bosses have multiple leadership stars (Barat in Chapter 20 has 4), but I guess contributing a star as well is nevertheless helpful.

In regards to the Hero Bow, yes, that's before factoring his base Hit. Hero Bow is pretty awesome. 14 Mt IIRC (I'm guessing the Mt off the top of my head, can't really look it up atm) and 95 Hit with 60 uses. Not to mention little competition as well (there's the non-segregated Selphina and maybe Robert if you're lucky). If it's against units without 2 range (dunno if they exist or not), he could try to chuck the Master Axe as it's attacking twice (though I think I'd give it to other Axe users with slightly better Hit).

Like I've stated once, I always thought a tier list ranked characters based on what they contribute after recruitment, but like I say: you learn something new everyday. Merely so we didn't ride off of slippery slopes such as whacking Hugh's recruitment cost vs. Lilina then Walt (as one could try to shove Hugh under Walt if only because of recruitment).