Wolf Knight, what's the point?

[BloodRonin]

I'm currently on chapter 22 on maddening classic. 

I wanted to use a wolf knight, but honestly can't think of a reason to. Theif Yunaka with pass and Corrin combo is crazy strong. Free aoe avoid fog anytime I want, debuffs and more. I also have her boots so she has high mobility. 

I wanted to use the wolf knights, but everytime I think of using one, theif just seems better. 

So I ask, what benefit does wolf knight actually give compared to theif?

[Armchair General]

Outside of the extra mobility and having an secondary weapon?

[Palasid]

I haven't finished the game yet, but its considered a cavalry mixed range unit who can "Hobble" (Reduces movement I think?) units and lower their defenses. I think it might have a couple higher stats but cannot confirm this. Its built to be a chipper I think, but gets melee weapons for Breaking.

[BloodRonin]

6 minutes ago, Armchair General said:

Outside of the extra mobility and having an secondary weapon?

That's the thing, Yunaka with the boots has the same mobility plus pass. 

The second weapon I suppose could be good for breaking. Knives are just so good. And the wolf knight class skill only activates with knives. >_<

[Armchair General]

10 minutes ago, Palasid said:

I think it might have a couple higher stats but cannot confirm this

Going by the max stats thieves are slightly better in an physical fight, but they'll probably be untouchable if they're standing on favorable terrain

[Ephidiel]

feel like Advanced Classes should have two types instead of just one
im starting to ramble a bit now.
Like 
If you go Mage Knight its a Cavalry instead of Mystic so it doesnt benefit from the effect of cancelling terrain.

It should be Cavalry+Mystic effects instead of just one. So Wolf Knight should have Covert + Cavalry.

and thats why Thief is simply stronger than any other Advanced Classes.  Pure Covert 1-2 Range no drawbacks.

So far it just makes no sens to use other classes than Covert Thief and just run 9 Thiefs and stack them in the corrin fog

Hobble is a niche skill, you cant really use hit and run unless you also run Canter on them or Sigurd Emblem and then you are engaged and its meaningless that you are a Wolf Knight to begin with.

 

[LoneRecon400]

It provides +1 Mov and Strength in exchange -2 Def over Thief. It's a winning trade, though admittedly only a marginal one.

On Maddening though, Wolf Knight becomes a lot more useful since it'll actually allow units to use terrain unlike Covert Units. Maddening enemies don't attack units if they have 0 hit, so covert bonuses aren't really that great becuase of it. And with enemies running 140-170 Hit in the lategame, being able to add +30 avoid while getting enemies to attack is pretty useful.

Edited January 28, 2023 by LoneRecon400

[Ephidiel]

it loses the Covert bonus for Avoid Tiles 

so that is a huge loss over Thiefs and Pass is just great

Covert Tile + Corrin Fog stacks so you instead of a 30+ Avo on a tile as a Wolf Knight  you get a 120+Avo as a Thief with Corrin

Edited January 28, 2023 by Ephidiel

[CompteSecours]

+1 mov, sword access to break, their skill, better damage.

 

[Armagon]

Hobble is an insanely good skill. Combined with Ice Dragon Vein (Emblem Corrin is objectively used best on Alear), it was absolutely vital in reducing the movement of certain bosses.

[Shadow Mir]

9 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Maddening enemies don't attack units if they have 0 hit

And if their DMG is a big fat goose egg? Will they abstain from attacking?

[Armchair General]

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

And if their DMG is a big fat goose egg? Will they abstain from attacking?

Apparently, this is the absolutely the last thing that you should be worried about because this game knows how to deal with camping

 

I really hope that they keep the chain attacks around for the next mainline game

Edited January 29, 2023 by Armchair General

[Xylaugheon Daily]

I'm sorry, this type of think really annoys me. It's like everyone who just made all their characters into Wyvern Lords in 3H. Not everything is about optimisation. Furthermore, a Wolf Knight is the highest mobility dagger unit. If you want to make daggers work, strap one onto Lyndis with inherited Draconic Hex and in one turn including danced, have Poison 5 and the Hex debuff on whatever target you want to obliterate. In case it isn't dead, you made sure it isn't reaching your backline with the -2 Move.

Edited January 29, 2023 by Xylaugheon Daily

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, Armchair General said:

Apparently, this is the absolutely the last thing that you should be worried about because this game knows how to deal with camping

 

I really hope that they keep the chain attacks around for the next mainline game

That reminds me, not too long ago, I saw this Excelblem video where he got his shit rekt by more chain attacks than the Xenoblade Chronicles series can shake a Monado at. That's something I rly need to be careful of. . .

Edited January 29, 2023 by Shadow Mir

[Armchair General]

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

That reminds me, not too long ago, I saw this Excelblem video where he got his shit rekt by more chain attacks than the Xenoblade Chronicles series can shake a Monado at. That's something I rly need to be careful of. . .

How far are you in with your playthrough? I'm nearly halfway through on Hard and the most obnoxious thing that I've seen so far is dealing with fliers popping out of the woodwork in this fog of war map. I haven't really seen any major chain attack spam outside of what an certain boss tried to pulled, but I noticed that the AI did take an 0% swing at Zelkov just to get some free chip damage in

[Shadow Mir]

37 minutes ago, Armchair General said:

How far are you in with your playthrough? I'm nearly halfway through on Hard and the most obnoxious thing that I've seen so far is dealing with fliers popping out of the woodwork in this fog of war map. I haven't really seen any major chain attack spam outside of what an certain boss tried to pulled, but I noticed that the AI did take an 0% swing at Zelkov just to get some free chip damage in

Only cleared chapter 9. Though Alear is underperforming to the point where I'm considering loading an older file and praying for better luck on his level ups... FFS, base Lapis is equal to or better than him across the board pretty much.

Edited January 29, 2023 by Shadow Mir

[Jotari]

17 hours ago, Ephidiel said:

feel like Advanced Classes should have two types instead of just one
im starting to ramble a bit now.
Like 
If you go Mage Knight its a Cavalry instead of Mystic so it doesnt benefit from the effect of cancelling terrain.

It should be Cavalry+Mystic effects instead of just one. So Wolf Knight should have Covert + Cavalry.

and thats why Thief is simply stronger than any other Advanced Classes.  Pure Covert 1-2 Range no drawbacks.

So far it just makes no sens to use other classes than Covert Thief and just run 9 Thiefs and stack them in the corrin fog

Hobble is a niche skill, you cant really use hit and run unless you also run Canter on them or Sigurd Emblem and then you are engaged and its meaningless that you are a Wolf Knight to begin with.

 

What I think would have been really interesting would have been if Mystic/Covert etc were all character assigned rather than class assigned. So a character will always have that ability no matter what class they're in, but maybe boosted if in the default class. This could give rise to just weirder combinations of what you can do with units (though cavalry would need something other than just increased move, which is just a regular stat assigned to a class).

[Quillmonger]

I was thinking really hard about making Alear a Thief tonight. I am nearing the tail end of the game and her advanced class just hit 20 so I need to either reset it or go to another class and try my luck there. The idea is the Yunaka has become so powerful and if Alear had just a bit of that it could really help. 

I thought about doing Wolf Knight for Alear, but I tried it on Yunaka on a different save on one of the story maps. I reset the game a few turns in when she didn't perform a single critical attack. My Yunaka does critical attacks like every other turn. The mobility is nice, but I had a pair of boots so I just gave those to her. 

Like people said a secondary weapon would help with breaks, but the thief doesn't really need to break and if I am counting on breaks I will just have one of the mages use a staff to give me one. 

[Armchair General]

10 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Though Alear is underperforming to the point where I'm considering loading an older file and praying for better luck on his level ups... FFS, base Lapis is equal to or better than him across the board pretty much.

Yeah, that's essentially the main problem with this game. I just use mines with Lucina to protect my frontline or for disarming the occasional axe unit. And one thing that I've noticed is that the avatar growth rates are essentially scaled for being an little bit on the evasive side as opposed to being another powerhouse like Byleth.

[redlight]

10 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Only cleared chapter 9. Though Alear is underperforming to the point where I'm considering loading an older file and praying for better luck on his level ups... FFS, base Lapis is equal to or better than him across the board pretty much.

Doesn't help that their promoted class is very meh (I hate fists in this game and the classes it's given to) and their magic isn't all that impressive for Levin Sword. Using their personal skill with a high mobility class as good as they are is probably optimal.

The extra 1 move is enough along with an another weapon type (Merrin with swords is salvaged by a usable Magic stat with Levin Sword) along with effective weaponry. Covert can be pretty neat, but it's incredibly situational and avoid tile quantity distribution for maps is way too random.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Armchair General said:

Yeah, that's essentially the main problem with this game. I just use mines with Lucina to protect my frontline or for disarming the occasional axe unit. And one thing that I've noticed is that the avatar growth rates are essentially scaled for being an little bit on the evasive side as opposed to being another powerhouse like Byleth.

 

1 hour ago, redlight said:

Doesn't help that their promoted class is very meh (I hate fists in this game and the classes it's given to) and their magic isn't all that impressive for Levin Sword. Using their personal skill with a high mobility class as good as they are is probably optimal.

The extra 1 move is enough along with an another weapon type (Merrin with swords is salvaged by a usable Magic stat with Levin Sword) along with effective weaponry. Covert can be pretty neat, but it's incredibly situational and avoid tile quantity distribution for maps is way too random.

So... was I spoiled by Robin, Corrin and Byleth all being among the better units in their respective games...? Did that cause me to set my expectations for Alear too high...???

[Armchair General]

32 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

So... was I spoiled by Robin, Corrin and Byleth all being among the better units in their respective games...?

Considering how Alear has  an static growth of 35 in Str and the other protags are pushing 45 or 50 with it, I'm inclined to say "yes."

34 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Did that cause me to set my expectations for Alear too high...???

Well, mines still has his uses for fighting off the bandit twins, last night... Although, that was the only notably thing that both Alear and Diamant was capable of doing on that map; since the only thing that the new arrivals needed to stay alive was an certain archer and Louis stabbing the shit out of people...With an fucking Spear. While everyone else was clearing an path and Zelkov was doing most of the fighting

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

13 hours ago, Jotari said:

What I think would have been really interesting would have been if Mystic/Covert etc were all character assigned rather than class assigned. So a character will always have that ability no matter what class they're in, but maybe boosted if in the default class. This could give rise to just weirder combinations of what you can do with units (though cavalry would need something other than just increased move, which is just a regular stat assigned to a class).

Maybe give Cavalry a 1-tile Canto by default, which is then bumped up to 3 tiles if you combine it with the "Canter" skill.

14 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Only cleared chapter 9. Though Alear is underperforming to the point where I'm considering loading an older file and praying for better luck on his level ups... FFS, base Lapis is equal to or better than him across the board pretty much.

You could try forging the Liberation. Or pumping him full of boosters and/or tonics. Or meals, if you're not doing those already. This game seems to provide a lot of options to overcome stat issues.

[BloodRonin]

Okay, OP here, and I have done some more testing with my units. (I am on maddening mode btw)

I am still keeping Yunaka as a thief. I used boots on her so she has the same range as Wolf knight, but also has pass. I also use the Corrin Ring on her.  This combo is just too good. I can throw up avoid clouds anytime I want, which will also proc her personal skill.

 

That being said, Wolf knight did grow on me a little. I made Zelkov a wolf knight. He has Canter, and Demonic Hex inherited. I also gave him the Erika ring. Because of the Erika Ring, he will always do damage with his daggers(the skill that makes you do more damage based on opponents defense .Lunar Embrace) With this combo, it gives me guaranteed damage, even against armored units. Demonic hex, Hobble, and poison. This combined with Yunaka gives me incredible control over the battlefield. 

So in a sense, I would still take thief over wolf knight if I could only have 1, BUT, now that I have both, I find the combo to be really insane. 

[Ragnell17]

I've been using Merrin as a Wolf Knight and she's been quite strong. 

Having 6 move without spending boots is nice especially if you put the Lucina ring on her so she can use that movement for chain attacks. Chain attack with daggers do inflict the debuff as well which is quite useful.

 

One might think that having an extra weapon isn't that necessary when daggers are just fine. Though there's a lot of weapons with extra utility that daggers don't have. Like the armorslayer and wyrmslayer. As well as smash weapons. Personally though, Merrin's base magic stat is actually really solid, so I gave her the Levin sword so she can choose to target resistance if need be.