Emblem Tier List

[FashionEmblem]

Lucina seems to be underrated a bit here, though amusingly I don't even agree with Bonded Shield as the reason. If I end up in a sticky situation, I usually go for a player phase sweep fueled by Goddess Dance, Lyn clone distraction, Corrin avoid fog, or, with the DLC, Soren's Assign Decoy (designate a 3-action provoke). That's not to say Bonded Shield is bad, but it is amusing to think through all the tools the game gives you (and the game still ends up being a challenge despite all that).

For me Lucina is great on a dagger unit for poison-stacking chain attacks. Dual Assist(+) is nice but I just treat it as a bonus since it's RNG based. I've used this on Wolf Knight Merrin to great effect, and the extra movement on Wolf Knight for more Dual Assists is a nice bonus (plus, my thief is too busy with Corrin fog avoid). The disconnect could be that chain attack poison is less helpful on lower difficulties, but Maddening enemies, particularly bosses, are beefy and the extra 10% damage + poison has really helped me out.

I also think Roy is a bit underrated, but purely as a stat stick. He gives a bunch of strength, and you get a couple points more when he gives you 5 extra levels. Not a bad pairing for an endgame Alear whose emblem can be one with a mediocre engage. Even if his engage combat and utility are nothing special, his engage is like a rainbow tonic you can call for 4 turns—that's not nothing. Lunar Brace is better, in my opinion, but there's only one Eirika and Lunar Brace is super expensive to inherit and seems pretty much impossible to do so without the DLC SP books.

Edited February 17, 2023 by FashionEmblem

[samthedigital]

10 hours ago, Florete said:

The irony is that you're actually better off not doing his paralogue so you don't extend the amount of turns engaged with him and can therefore get another Goddess Dance faster, but that also means you don't have access to the higher level skills.

Avoiding the support with the unit that's using Goddess Dance also works; that gives you the benefit of being able to let other units use Divine Pulse + while having Goddess Dance available as often as possible. Even better is to pair it with Favorite Food to make it instantly available after it goes down for the first time.

 

As for my quick thoughts on rankings (not assuming inheritance, canter and Divine Pulse+ are probably the two most notable ones to me if we include those):

 

 Top: Byleth, Micaiah, Corrin

 

Byleth has Goddess Dance, Corrin has an amazing crowd control ability, and Micaiah makes busted staves even better. Micaiah requires Divine Pulse+ to make it truly overpowered, but with it she can effectively freeze as many units as Corrin can without her special and use a myriad of cheesing tools. She can make use of Rescue and Warp in non cheesy ways too.

Bottom: Celica, Leif

If we're including early game utility I'd rank Celica higher. Echo is decent with Dual Support+, and Warp Ragnarok is good for positioning later on in the game, but I just don't find her kit to be terribly effective for dealing damage most of the time. Maybe there's a good use for Vantage, but I haven't really found anything great since it takes some setup and is probably only conditionally good when used on Leif.

Everything else feels about the same to me. I haven't played around with Lucina's Bonded Shield yet though since I don't really like any Qi Adept classes besides my Dancer who usually has better things to do.

Some short notes on each Emblem not otherwise mentioned:

Roy: He's a good stat stick, Hold Out is pretty good, and Blazing Lion can be a decent crowd control option similar to Corrin, but it's a lot more limited.

Lyn: She's the best stat stick. I've found Astra storm to be only situationally useful. and Call Doubles would be more useful if I knew how AI target priority worked, but I don't find it to be terribly effective right now.

Eirika: Twin Strike can one shot almost anything, and Lunar Brace is good, but I don't find her kit to be that impressive otherwise.

Ike: The other part of the Wrath/Vantage combo, but the defense makes him more useful in a general context too.

Sigurd: The unit that uses Sigurd can afford Wrath (since they don't need Canter) to one round a lot of enemies with an engraved Killer Lance combined with Momentum. There are probably a lot of other good combos, but this is the one I found to be most useful.

Marth: It's kind of boring, but the general power boost and avoid isn't bad.

[SnowFire]

On Leif: Hmm, I seem to be the only one minorly defending him as slightly better than Roy-not-Marth tier, while most others have him slightly worse.  While I might be convinced to demote him to the same tier, I'm not quite sold he's outright worse.  I think the main use case for Leif is, as noted before, "discount Ike" where you just want someone to survive a tough enemy phase as bait.  Pre-weakened enemies will die to Vantage, and other enemies will at least block the square to avoid additional rounds of combat.  The Leif-user merely has to survive, and Adaptable + Arms Shield is acting as a wimpy version of Ike's damage halving with the reduce-damage-on-triangle-advantage passive as well as the Avoid boost for Covert users of Leif.  Ike can't be everywhere at once, so this is still a reasonable niche to have IMO.  (I had him on Boucheron; the extra Build was wasted, but Boucheron's combination of great HP and average speed meant he was still a fairly safe baiting unit, even if his damage wasn't exceptional.)

11 hours ago, Jotari said:

Leif offers vantage which is a pretty good skill combined with wrath and a crit engraved weapon. That's the build I had on Panette and she was a beast. Thlugh unfortunately weak to 1-2 range (mught make that mt Yunaka build next game).

 

On the other hand, I trashed Leif in the "don't care about any of this" tier for inheritance.  Vantage hype...  hmm, interesting.  I think Panette (or maybe Louis class-changed to Berserker for the Str growth?!) might be the only person who can pull this off.  It seems just like such a tough strategy to make work; enemies are durable enough that flat OHKOing them is hard, you really need both amazing strength and a high crit weapon and Wrath.  And if you even want to do this, why not just equip Leif himself?  Saves you a pile of SP.

Now, I know I mentioned Byleth for a mostly meme build with very few users, but Divine Pulse and Divine Pulse+ are very cheap SP-wise.  Just 250 for vanilla DP and 500 SP for DP+, you can dip into it nearly for free if you want if you have an inaccurate unit.  Vantage is 500 SP to start with but for the very finnicky 25% HP threshold (highly dangerous to get down there!  No Devil Weapons / Divine Weapons on the crestless to make it easier!), and if you still want to do this lategame, it's another 1000/2000 SP to upgrade it.  Meanwhile, inheriting Wrath instead is 2000 SP, which is cheaper than 3500 SP (math!).  So yeah, tentatively standing by "inherited Vantage strats aren't worth it," but will be curious to see if others can do something with it.

Edited February 17, 2023 by SnowFire

[LoneRecon400]

Some things I feel worth sharing:

Roy is definitely being underrated here. At max bond he gives +6 Str and can easily add on +2-3 in Str and Speed while engaged, which can really make a huge difference for a unit.  He also has really good Synergy with Max Hold out, Unyielding ++, and Wrath. That guarantees 2-3 hits worth of survivability for a Wrath unit every turn. That's afford them the niche of being able to be place in attacking distance of ranged enemies without concern.

I also think Ike's tanking capabilities are being a little understated. At max bond he effectively gives +12 Def. Combine that with Def +3, +2 from a tonic, and Ragnell, that's +22 Def on top of a 50% damage reduction. That's enough defense for enemy endgame snipers with silver bows to do mediocre damage aganist flyers.

Combining that natural bulk with innate Wrath can be a rather asine combination in the right circumstance.

Leif is the weakest ring, but he does have a use on a  warrior. The thing about adaptability is that it doesn't care what weapon your using as long as you're using the right weapon type. So if you never raise his bond, you never have to worry about switching off your forged axe for any of his weapons. Him giving +10 Crit on backup units is useful for the Killer Axe.

Celica has some really good Synergy with some skills. Echo, for example, can be used to activate Chain attacks twice against a enemy rather than once. It also can be used to apply draconic hex on two different enemies a turn, provided you're willing to inherit it. Holy Stance ++ can also be useful in taking down corrupted wyrms since they'll do some massive recoil damage to themselves. Probably need an HP tonic for that one though.

Erika Is actually very good offensive wise. Her skills are plus Attack rather than any stats, meaning they bypass any defense. While engaged, it's not uncommon to deal +10 damage on the enemy that you otherwise would not have done damage to.

Marth can be very good when combined with effective weapons. Even things like forged hammers have a hard time killing Great Knights, but with marth you can afford to slap on a Ike engraving on them and actually be able to one round them with a break.

Lucina gives a 100% protection rate with Bonded Shield as a Qi adept. That alone is really good, since it can lead to nutty stuff like this

The Fire Emblem also needs to be mentioned. As a Divine Dragon, their gauge can instantly be refilled as long as they they can quad with arts. That may sound intimidating, but it works on generals with +atk skills. Flashing fist is also a viable option with some Speed stacking.

Being able to give +8 Spd and Def on top of a rally spectrum for all other stats on a good combat unit for 4 turns is already pretty great, but passively just handing +30 Hit and Avoid is extremely helpful with hitting dodgey enemies in the lategame and increasing the reliability of your own units.

Edited February 17, 2023 by LoneRecon400

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, SnowFire said:

On Leif: Hmm, I seem to be the only one minorly defending him as slightly better than Roy-not-Marth tier, while most others have him slightly worse.  While I might be convinced to demote him to the same tier, I'm not quite sold he's outright worse.  I think the main use case for Leif is, as noted before, "discount Ike" where you just want someone to survive a tough enemy phase as bait.  Pre-weakened enemies will die to Vantage, and other enemies will at least block the square to avoid additional rounds of combat.  The Leif-user merely has to survive, and Adaptable + Arms Shield is acting as a wimpy version of Ike's damage halving with the reduce-damage-on-triangle-advantage passive as well as the Avoid boost for Covert users of Leif.  Ike can't be everywhere at once, so this is still a reasonable niche to have IMO.  (I had him on Boucheron; the extra Build was wasted, but Boucheron's combination of great HP and average speed meant he was still a fairly safe baiting unit, even if his damage wasn't exceptional.)

On the other hand, I trashed Leif in the "don't care about any of this" tier for inheritance.  Vantage hype...  hmm, interesting.  I think Panette (or maybe Louis class-changed to Berserker for the Str growth?!) might be the only person who can pull this off.  It seems just like such a tough strategy to make work; enemies are durable enough that flat OHKOing them is hard, you really need both amazing strength and a high crit weapon and Wrath.  And if you even want to do this, why not just equip Leif himself?  Saves you a pile of SP.

Now, I know I mentioned Byleth for a mostly meme build with very few users, but Divine Pulse and Divine Pulse+ are very cheap SP-wise.  Just 250 for vanilla DP and 500 SP for DP+, you can dip into it nearly for free if you want if you have an inaccurate unit.  Vantage is 500 SP to start with but for the very finnicky 25% HP threshold (highly dangerous to get down there!  No Devil Weapons / Divine Weapons on the crestless to make it easier!), and if you still want to do this lategame, it's another 1000/2000 SP to upgrade it.  Meanwhile, inheriting Wrath instead is 2000 SP, which is cheaper than 3500 SP (math!).  So yeah, tentatively standing by "inherited Vantage strats aren't worth it," but will be curious to see if others can do something with it.

Well I also had Lyn on Panette to make the most powerful Astra Storm I could. I can attest that Vatage-Wrath Panette is able to absolutely dominate. She can deal 30 displayed damage with an engraved forged killing axe, which on crit is upwards of 90 damage. And she can get literally 100% crit rate (though usually it's 92-98%). The issue is, on some enemies, her hit, and much more pressingly, that it gives her no protection from 1-2 range enemies.

Lindon might be able to pull it off decently well too, as his special gives him crit. Maybe a crit engraved highly build low rank tome could deal good damage. But I'm not sure how powerful his stat line really is and I don't think any tomes have natural crit on killer levels.

If you were to use this build then Leif's natural vantage is probably less preferable, as Adaptbaility probably takes you off your killing weapon. At least if you ever engage. You could just never Engage and use vantage I guess.

Edited February 18, 2023 by Jotari

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

22 minutes ago, Jotari said:

The issue is, on some enemies, her hit, and much more pressingly, that it gives her no protection from 1-2 range enemies.

Just bring Kingdom Archers and cast Retribution on her. GG EZ no re.

Anyway, I'm not well-versed enough to tier the Emblems wholesale, so I'm just going to evaluate them by their Engage Attacks, with some consideration to the associated skills that affect how they play out.

S-Rank

Byleth. Omni-dance good, guys.

A-Rank

Corrin. Hitting multiple targets, and getting Draconic Hex, and freezing some of them in place? Sign me up.

Sigurd. Get the right enemy formation, and you're hitting even more than the last one. Momentum on a high-Might of effective weapon can make this devastating. 

B-Rank

Ike. Great Aether can be tremendous, although getting dislocated by a "Smash" attack may seriously screw up your plans. Still fun for a one-unit wrecking ball.

Lyn. This one has high killing power, especially with a Radiant Bow (and/or against a flier), and great range. But at the end of the day, it's single-target.

C-Rank

Celica. Warp Ragnarok trades the long range for a built-in Rewarp effect, which can give flexibility when you want to move halfwatly across the map. Not as much killing power, though.

Leif. Quadruple Hit goes hard, in fact.

Micaiah. Great Sacrifice can save someone in a pinch, but in my experience, it's moreso a "get a free level-up now!" coupon. Hey, not like that's a bad thing.

Eirika. The Twin Attack can go well against the right foe, but again, there's only so high that I can place a 1-space, single-target attack.

Lucina. If I were more clever, I'd probably be able to come up with a stronger "All for One", with as many allies involved as possible. But I'm not, so this is just alright.

D-Rank

Marth. There are times I'd Engage with him, and just... not use Lodestar Rush. Not that it's bad, but it doesn't stand that much higher against just regularly doubling. I guess a Silver Blade could salvage it, though.

Roy. Look at me, I set the grass on fire! Please ignore the fact that a Dragon or Mystic with Corrin can do the same thing on any given turn.

 

So yeah, these are my bad tastes slash takes on these Emblem Rings, based on not-yet completing the game on Hard. Maybe I'll revisit to make fun of myself when the playthrough is well and truly done. Who knows?

[MiaMain]

I have Corrin ahead of Byleth, since Dragon Vein can be used every turn. I don’t know that the conversation here has given enough credit to frequency of use. Yeah Goddess dance is good, but you only get it once or twice a map. Ike’s defense buffs are permanently active.

[Dark Holy Elf]

7 hours ago, SnowFire said:

On Leif: Hmm, I seem to be the only one minorly defending him as slightly better than Roy-not-Marth tier, while most others have him slightly worse.  While I might be convinced to demote him to the same tier, I'm not quite sold he's outright worse.  I think the main use case for Leif is, as noted before, "discount Ike" where you just want someone to survive a tough enemy phase as bait.

Arms Shield can give you an effective defence boost, but only if you have the appropriate weapons for triangle, which is not a given, and Adaptability can screw it up in a few ways, since as far as I could tell the game prefers countering to not countering. Also, if you had a weapon engraved for evade, too bad for you if Adaptability doesn't like it.

I'd go so far as to suggest that even Roy might well do more for just plain surviving. When engaged, he should basically catch up to Leif's defence boost, while giving you way more res, and Hold Out will often (not always) buy you an extra hit. Certainly I made the switch from Leif to Roy on one of my units (Goldmary, who is basically a fillerish tanky character on my team, which ostensibly would be the niche you're suggesting Leif is most useful for) and I thought the results were pretty much a straight upgrade.

[Florete]

26 minutes ago, MiaMain said:

I have Corrin ahead of Byleth, since Dragon Vein can be used every turn. I don’t know that the conversation here has given enough credit to frequency of use. Yeah Goddess dance is good, but you only get it once or twice a map. Ike’s defense buffs are permanently active.

That's the main reason I didn't put Byleth in my own S tier. It's an amazing effect, but getting it 1-2 times per map just isn't enough for me to rank him among the best.

[SnowFire]

49 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Arms Shield can give you an effective defence boost, but only if you have the appropriate weapons for triangle, which is not a given, and Adaptability can screw it up in a few ways, since as far as I could tell the game prefers countering to not countering. Also, if you had a weapon engraved for evade, too bad for you if Adaptability doesn't like it.

I'd go so far as to suggest that even Roy might well do more for just plain surviving. When engaged, he should basically catch up to Leif's defence boost, while giving you way more res, and Hold Out will often (not always) buy you an extra hit. Certainly I made the switch from Leif to Roy on one of my units (Goldmary, who is basically a fillerish tanky character on my team, which ostensibly would be the niche you're suggesting Leif is most useful for) and I thought the results were pretty much a straight upgrade.

I never had any tragic "damn you Adapatability" incidents myself but I get that it would be traumatic and extremely memorable if it did happen, so I certainly believe people on that point.  If you do Leif's paralogue, then you'll be sure to have the appropriate weapons for the main triangle while engaged at least.  (Adaptability isn't totally brainless either, I had a well-forged Steel Bow on Warrior Boucheron and I'm sure I saw it get used reasonably often, so it's not locked to Leif's personal weapons.)  And yeah, fair point that Roy is also discount Ike to a degree.  I think I'm sufficiently sold as to downgrade Leif to the same tier, but deciding if I agree with the anti-Leif consensus will probably have to wait on playthrough #2 on Maddening.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, MiaMain said:

I have Corrin ahead of Byleth, since Dragon Vein can be used every turn. I don’t know that the conversation here has given enough credit to frequency of use. Yeah Goddess dance is good, but you only get it once or twice a map. Ike’s defense buffs are permanently active.

Those once or twice a map are pretty battle deciding though (though, yes, Corrin is better than Byleth imo).

You know Byleth's water dance feels kind of more similar to Azura than anything in Three Houses. He can't even dance in Three Houses. Maybe Goddess Dance was originally on Corrin and then someone realized how busted Corrin swapped it...eh, probably not, but it is a bit amusing dancing is coming to define Byleth when their of a handful of characters who can't dance in Three Houses.

Edited February 18, 2023 by Jotari

[samthedigital]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Those once or twice a map are pretty battle deciding though (though, yes, Corrin is better than Byleth imo).

You know Byleth's water dance feels kind of more similar to Azura than anything in Three Houses. He can't even dance in Three Houses. Maybe Goddess Dance was originally on Corrin and then someone realized how busted Corrin swapped it...eh, probably not, but it is a bit amusing dancing is coming to define Byleth when their of a handful of characters who can't dance in Three Houses.

Goddess Dance is probably a nod to the Dance of the Goddess gambit that anyone in three houses can use if I recall correctly.

Anyway, if Goddess Dance is only being used once or twice in a map it's likely because the map is getting cheesed with Entrap, Warp, etc, and that would make Corrin's ability far less valuable than Micaiah's or Byleth's. I find that they are pretty close to even otherwise, but it really depends on how strong the player's offensive options are, and I wouldn't care to argue one over the other. It's worth noting that Micaiah can have practically the same effect for as long as the staff lasts, and there are enough of them that we can be at least somewhat liberal with their usage.

[SnowFire]

6 hours ago, samthedigital said:

Goddess Dance is probably a nod to the Dance of the Goddess gambit that anyone in three houses can use if I recall correctly.

Anyway, if Goddess Dance is only being used once or twice in a map it's likely because the map is getting cheesed with Entrap, Warp, etc, and that would make Corrin's ability far less valuable than Micaiah's or Byleth's. I find that they are pretty close to even otherwise, but it really depends on how strong the player's offensive options are, and I wouldn't care to argue one over the other. It's worth noting that Micaiah can have practically the same effect for as long as the staff lasts, and there are enough of them that we can be at least somewhat liberal with their usage.

By the second half of the game, where Byleth is even available, lots of maps have Void Curse reinforcements in the rear to ensure you're efficiently clearing things and moving forward, which means most maps are over by turns 8-12, no Warp/Entrap necessary.  (And there's even C21, which really wants you to win in 4-5 turns.) 

Suppose you skip Byleth's paralogue.  This means that the absolute fastest rate of Goddess Dances is to engage with Byleth on turn 1, use Goddess Dance somewhere turns 1-3, rig yourself to stand on Emblem energy on turn 4 (or tricks like Favorite Food + packed lunch), Engage turn 5, etc.  This means that your earliest third Goddess Dance is turn 9.  Just...    And I don't think this pace of Goddess Dances is that realistic - maybe if you REALLY know your map, you'll do things like pre-engage Byleth to ensure his sync goes on cooldown faster, but I think it's more common to Engage + Dance on the same turn to ensure it isn't wasted. And you won't always be able to immediately refresh Emblem Energy, and you won't always have a particularly useful Goddess Dance in the first three turns anyway.  Three Dances can happen, but it's not that common.

I don't think Goddess Dance is bad flavor - a lot of the good stuff the emblems do is include the flavor of the game they were in as a whole (e.g. Celica having Warp Ragnarok despite Silque being on Alm's route - whatever, have a warp ability from the game with the ability to spam Warps).  Dance of the Goddess is one of the iconic power moves in Three Houses, so it's a good option to include as a 3H-representative even if it wasn't locked down to Byleth.

[samthedigital]

1 hour ago, SnowFire said:

Suppose you skip Byleth's paralogue.  This means that the absolute fastest rate of Goddess Dances is to engage with Byleth on turn 1, use Goddess Dance somewhere turns 1-3, rig yourself to stand on Emblem energy on turn 4 (or tricks like Favorite Food + packed lunch), Engage turn 5, etc.  This means that your earliest third Goddess Dance is turn 9.  Just...    And I don't think this pace of Goddess Dances is that realistic - maybe if you REALLY know your map, you'll do things like pre-engage Byleth to ensure his sync goes on cooldown faster, but I think it's more common to Engage + Dance on the same turn to ensure it isn't wasted. And you won't always be able to immediately refresh Emblem Energy, and you won't always have a particularly useful Goddess Dance in the first three turns anyway.  Three Dances can happen, but it's not that common.

I mentioned it earlier, but you don't need to skip Byleth's paralogue; you just need to avoid supporting the unit that is engaging with Byleth. It's also possible to engage earlier if you dance the Goddess Dancer the turn they refill their meter. Using it at this pace can be a little excessive, but not less so than keeping near 100% uptime on Corrin's engage. I find that the game provides enough emblem energy along with the packed meal as a safety net to be able to have it available basically whenever it's necessary.

Quote

By the second half of the game, where Byleth is even available, lots of maps have Void Curse reinforcements in the rear to ensure you're efficiently clearing things and moving forward, which means most maps are over by turns 8-12, no Warp/Entrap necessary.  (And there's even C21, which really wants you to win in 4-5 turns.) 

To be clear I mentioned Entrap partly because it's an argument in favor Byleth and Micaiah. The point I was making though was that the most useful engage is largely going to depend on circumstance and how the player chooses to tackle a particular situation. For example I could bait a pack of enemies, kill what I can, and use Corrin's ability to freeze what I can't kill and deal with it next turn. That would put the freeze effect in the best possible light, but it's not the only effective way to deal with that kind of situation. If your team composition is strong enough it's possible to thin enemies out on enemy phase or to rush a few units in to deal with them and then rescuing them to safety so that it's easier to take the rest of the enemies out next turn; Corrin is more useful as a safety net in this example than a primary way of dealing with enemies.

Edited February 18, 2023 by samthedigital

[CompteSecours]

Leif has 1 big problem : his engage weapons are bad. 

Hence, his quadra-hit has low damage. Light brand hits magic, so if you have a physical unit it is useless. The other 3 are weaker than steel weapons.

 

[DefyingFates]

1 hour ago, CompteSecours said:

Hence, his quadra-hit has low damage. Light brand hits magic, so if you have a physical unit it is useless. The other 3 are weaker than steel weapons.

I asked this earlier, but what does he use for a bow? Does he have a unique bow in the code or does he just copy a steel bow? Does anyone know, please?

One thing about Leif though is that each of the four hits can proc unit skills, so he's fairly decent with Timerra and her Sandstorm (on top of giving her some much needed Bld). Pretty niche I know, but still.

Edited February 19, 2023 by DefyingFates

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, CompteSecours said:

Leif has 1 big problem : his engage weapons are bad. 

Hence, his quadra-hit has low damage. Light brand hits magic, so if you have a physical unit it is useless. The other 3 are weaker than steel weapons.

 

I've been thinking, Leif might actually find his best use as a magic emblem. Sure it'll take a while to get Light Brand, but arms swap in general feels like it'd run into less issues on a mage as it will let you use Elsurge without worrying about counter attacks and swap to Elthunder of you're using your primary 2 range tome.

Of course mages are squishy and you don't want them getting into combat on enemy phase at all. Man this game was so ripe for an armoured mage. They should have done it to properly represent Cowen alone, instead of givng a General staves it can't use.

[KP Joey]

Tiering Emblems feels weird because every emblem feels like it can have a purpose depending on which units you run and how they synergize with the kit. I feel like there a few absurdly good ones (Corrin, Byleth, Micaiah, Lyn) but most of the rest feel very similar in terms of viability because they all enable good builds/options.

Marth makes effective weapons busted, gives bonus EXP which can help units get into Canter range pre-10, and enables things like long bow poisoning with covert archers on top of giving 3 str and 4 spd.

Celica's echo & seraphim is a very nice combo. Warp Ragnarok early is obviously very strong as well. Warp Ragnarok falls off, but the bonus damage for magic and seraphim do not.

Sigurd's movement speaks for itself. If you don't view Sigurd's offensive potential through momentum and override as good enough, you can just throw it on Seadall and suddenly Sigurd is amazing again.

Leif enables vantage wrath which is enough to let him do great work, and his bonuses to HP/Def help with that. Alternatively, quadruple hit + momentum can give good chip damage if not outright kill.

Roy giving 6 str is honestly all he needs. Hold Out is a nice bonus, too. Put him on a high speed low str unit and he will do well.

Eirika seems like one of the most slept on emblems as a whole. Martial Master with Eirika for example turns 0x4 into something like 15x4 and can help your Martial Master of choice transition into a mixed damage/support once you get Hortensia. Any lower str units will start doing solid damage once you equip Eirika.

Ike's kit just works so well on turning any unit into an omni-tank. Resolve, Wrath, 4 Str with the 7 HP and 5 Def bonus... It can work on most characters tbh. Also vantage wrath.

Lucina enabling chain attacks from tons of different unit types and from a distance is so absurdly useful. Inheriting Dual Assist+ onto other backups (esp. heroes) kinda serves the same purpose, so I can definitely get underrating her because of that. However, she also has bonded shield. Lucina w/Seadall is very good for example because not only does it enable chain attacks, but it gives 100% bond shield procs if you're wanting to support a ep unit and don't need to dance.

[Dark Holy Elf]

43 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Of course mages are squishy and you don't want them getting into combat on enemy phase at all.

This isn't particularly true though? Looking at average stats, Ivy has basically average defence and HP (and good res) while Celine, Pandreo, and Lindon aren't super squishy or anything. Certainly, once you throw Leif on them they'll be able to take a hit or two. I definitely use mages to do some enemy phasing in this game, quite a bit with Corrin, and Leif improves durability even more. They won't be a match for a dedicated Ike-user or tank but certainly good enough to take some hits, and their enemy phase combat damage output will likely be higher than most typical tanks. Does waste Arms Shield and obviously most mages would like one of Magic or Speed, but build isn't the worst consolation prize.

[Skyteppelin]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

I've been thinking, Leif might actually find his best use as a magic emblem. Sure it'll take a while to get Light Brand, but arms swap in general feels like it'd run into less issues on a mage as it will let you use Elsurge without worrying about counter attacks and swap to Elthunder of you're using your primary 2 range tome.

Of course mages are squishy and you don't want them getting into combat on enemy phase at all. Man this game was so ripe for an armoured mage. They should have done it to properly represent Cowen alone, instead of givng a General staves it can't use.

ON my current maddening run Iv being using Leif on ivy and it does work quite well cause it lets her break the thresholds for heavier tomes not to weigh her down and its really nice to sure about doubling some things with higher damage.  

[Jotari]

33 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

This isn't particularly true though? Looking at average stats, Ivy has basically average defence and HP (and good res) while Celine, Pandreo, and Lindon aren't super squishy or anything. Certainly, once you throw Leif on them they'll be able to take a hit or two. I definitely use mages to do some enemy phasing in this game, quite a bit with Corrin, and Leif improves durability even more. They won't be a match for a dedicated Ike-user or tank but certainly good enough to take some hits, and their enemy phase combat damage output will likely be higher than most typical tanks. Does waste Arms Shield and obviously most mages would like one of Magic or Speed, but build isn't the worst consolation prize.

Yeah, Ivy can certainly take a hit. But my other primary mages were Citrenne and Veyle who feel like they can be killed quite easy. Of course, on Maddening everyone you haven't specifically built into an Ike tank or dodge tank feels like they can be knocked out in very few hits. In conceot though, given the dearth of magic Emblems, it seems that's where Leif can best shine.

[haarhaarhaar]

9 hours ago, Jotari said:

I've been thinking, Leif might actually find his best use as a magic emblem. Sure it'll take a while to get Light Brand, but arms swap in general feels like it'd run into less issues on a mage as it will let you use Elsurge without worrying about counter attacks and swap to Elthunder of you're using your primary 2 range tome.

problem is Adaptable prioritises WTA over quite a lot, so when engaged there’s every chance the mage gets one of Leif’s weapons against physical units instead of Elsurge, or a stronger tome. Mages still don’t want Leif’s axe/lance options even if they get Light Brand on occasion.

10 hours ago, DefyingFates said:

asked this earlier, but what does he use for a bow? Does he have a unique bow in the code or does he just copy a steel bow? Does anyone know, please?

SF claims it’s a Master Bow (it’s in the Bows section of the Engage page)

[Dark Holy Elf]

4 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

problem is Adaptable prioritises WTA over quite a lot, so when engaged there’s every chance the mage gets one of Leif’s weapons against physical units instead of Elsurge, or a stronger tome. Mages still don’t want Leif’s axe/lance options even if they get Light Brand on occasion.

15 hours ago, DefyingFates said:

It's amazing how much Leif's own weapons ruin Adaptable. In theory you can do cool things with the skill by carefully setting up your own inventory, but Leif providing three weapons of his own which you can't get rid of really limits this. (Yes, you can avoid two of them by avoiding a bond conversation but that costs you 4 HP / 2 def / 2 build, makes Vantage and Arms Shield much less effective and also feels very bad.)

[Shadow Mir]

38 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

It's amazing how much Leif's own weapons ruin Adaptable. In theory you can do cool things with the skill by carefully setting up your own inventory, but Leif providing three weapons of his own which you can't get rid of really limits this. (Yes, you can avoid two of them by avoiding a bond conversation but that costs you 4 HP / 2 def / 2 build, makes Vantage and Arms Shield much less effective and also feels very bad.)

Ouch. Doesn't help that the Master Lance is arguably the worst Engage weapon in the whole damn game.

[haarhaarhaar]

2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

It's amazing how much Leif's own weapons ruin Adaptable. In theory you can do cool things with the skill by carefully setting up your own inventory, but Leif providing three weapons of his own which you can't get rid of really limits this. (Yes, you can avoid two of them by avoiding a bond conversation but that costs you 4 HP / 2 def / 2 build, makes Vantage and Arms Shield much less effective and also feels very bad.)

Agreed. I suppose you could run Leif situationally on a mage if the map has a lot of axe users (or arts users, I guess) and you expect the mage to see combat - but lots of axe users can one-round mages (or get pretty close to it) if they land their attacks on Maddening, with or without Arms Guard. Not sure Leif's a good fit even when you do want a mage to have an enemy phase. Better off boosting Avo for mages, although Ivy + Hector might do alright.