So...let's talk tiers.

[Mekkah]

Not factoring stat boosters is like not factoring in Silver weapons, or forges, or reclass, or promotions, or any kind of boost. They exist. You cannot always 100% assume you are going to get them when multiple people want your kind of treatment, which is why not everyone who can be and wants to be a Merc is a Merc, or why we're not assuming everyone is weilding +10 mt forged weapons. But in this case, the cost of having a Speedwing is...that a low tier cannot becomne slightly better. So in that case it is definitely not unheard of to take the Speedwing and run with it.

I said something similar this to Nathan on MSN before, but let's say we are playing FE7 for Special Needs people. We have the normal enemies, but the PC cast consists of:

- A lot of units with 7000 in every stat

- One unit who has the same durability as those above units, enough Atk to 2HKO everything, and he is 2 Spd short of doubling everything.

- One unit who has the same durability as those above units, enough Spd to double everything, and he is 2 Atk short of ORKOing everything.

Now, we have an Energy Ring and a Speedwings at our disposal right away. Do we just not factor them in, and pretend that both of these units are not one-rounding anything?

[Dat Nick]

Yet... you have no clue if this is true. You're also a hypocrite for saying this, because later on you mention how he's "rarely" being played vs "never" being played.

Are you special ed, or what? I just gave you an irrefutable piece of proof that Gordin is not a popular character: PEOPLE DON'T LIKE HIM. Seriously. It's not that hard to figure out he won't be played often. He sucks at first glance. His growth rates suck if you look them up. You can't reclass him into anything good. So please stop trying to wiggle your way out of this one: It's not going to fucking work. Look on Gamespot.

And yes, rarely. Very, VERY VERY VERY few people will use him. It's more than obvious why. Just like guys like Wolt, Bors, Rolf, Wil, Leonardo, Marty, etc are played.

A tier list on a fairly small forum != universally known.

Small? Pft, very few people outside of here and Gamespot own the game, I bet.

Obviously Universally known is exaggerated a bit, but SERIOUSLY, please stop trying to deny that Gordin will be used that often. He won't. Why? Because he sucks. It's that fucking simple.

Gordin not being played is not a fact, it's a preference.

And many people will PREFER not to use Gordin. Why? Because he sucks.

Everyone has different preferences.

And very few of these preferences will select Gordin, because more people than not like good units.

you can't take into account quality because "x isn't being used"

For the billionth time I said NOT OFTEN USED. Big fucking difference.

Heck, Minerva's usefulness goes up massively if given a speedwing.

No, it doesn't?

12 is enough to double at jointime, 19, what she has at endgame, is...also enough to double at endgame. There's the mamkutes, but she can take them with a Dragonpike.

As does marth's ability to 1 round the final boss.

which he is more than capable of doing without it

the final boss is crap easy to one round anyway

but it gimps every other character in the entire game as well.

too bad very few characters actually CARE about the speed loss, since basically 80% of them have no issues doubling/one rounding.

...And the ones that do are beyond help until promotion, anyway

Now, if we were talking about H5, then yes, people actually WOULD care about the speedwings.

And, unlike merric, he isn't the only person who will ever want a speed boost.

Name me one mid/low mid character that does.

...I'm waaaaaiiiiitttttiiiiinnnngggg......

By the way, COTM guy, since you seem to love defying logic that better characters are played more often, let's take a look at other games.

Pokemon is probably one of the best examples here. Now, between Gengar and Farfetche'd, which Pokemon will 90% of serious players take? ...That's what I thought. Gengar is one of the best pokemon in the game, whereas I don't believe any serious player has EVER had Farfetche'd on their team. And for good reason, too. Check out Farfetche'd stats/movelist. Blargh.

Fighting games. There's a billion different examples of this, but let's use one of the more unbalanced ones: Street Fighter 2.

Now, between Balrog, Dhalsism, Vega, Sagat, and Cammy, which one of the following do you think is the LEAST popular? And we're talking about BEFORE HD Remix, so none of the top 4s nerfs and Cammys buffs matter. We have Balrog, who can turn punch/headbutt/super your ass in no time flat, Dhalsim, who has noogie traps, ridclious normal attack reach, projectiles, et cetera, Vega, who can hop all over the field [And very few characters, if any, can hit him while he's up there] Sagat, who doesn't need to do much more than Tiger Shot spam to win a match, and Cammy, who.....um.....sucks?

Sure, any character can beat any character. But who do you think a serious player is more likely to pick? The top four, all of whom are borderline broken, or Cammy, who's next to useless? Granted, Sagat is a soft-ban in some places, but guys like Ryu/Guile/Bison/Whatever are still way better than Cammy.

And in another series, which you may or may not have heard about, Twisted Metal. In TM Lost, which comes bundled with TM Head On: Extra Twisted Edition for the PS2, you have Spectre, who's quite easily the worst character in the game. crappy armor, weak special, only thing she has going for her is speed, and that alone can't win matches. Meanwhile you've got other cars who are doing around twice the damage she does with her specials, sometimes WAY more than twice, some, most specials in fact are strong enough to kill her in two/three hits. Sure, she can run around like an idiot, but once she gets frozen, which WILL happen sometime in the match, she's toast. Oh, sure, in matches where the player controlling Spectre against a slower car like, say, Darkside, it's totally possible that Spectre can keep Darkside frozen and nuke her with missles and whatnot. In a match where the Darkside player is on the same level as the Spectre player, Darkside is winning almost every time. Two specials kill Spectre, the special can be used to comepensate somewhat for Darkside being slower, and it takes a hell of a lot of effort on Spectre's behalf to kill Darkside before Darkside kills her, since she really has no fast way of doing it. It's basically the same with most other cars two: With the exception of Warthog, Spectre really can't compete with any of them. Now, if you're holding a TM Lost tournament, how many SERIOUS players do you expect to pick Spectre, rather than pretty much any other car in the game? [Excluding Gold Tooth, who's obviously banned, and 12-Pak, who, if isn't soft-banned, should be]

Edited January 20, 2009 by MightyZagaro

[Lord Raven]

Great you STILL haven't countered my proof why Ogma > Nabarl. And we've gone off on a familiar tangent. Kudos to you, ignoring the real point once again. I even factored in Speedwings just for you, and I still managed to say Ogma > Nabarl. However "poorly thought out" it is, the fact that you've refrained from countering it says less about its wording and more about your ability to counter it.

Are you special ed, or what? I just gave you an irrefutable piece of proof that Gordin is not a popular character: PEOPLE DON'T LIKE HIM. Seriously. It's not that hard to figure out he won't be played often. He sucks at first glance. His growth rates suck if you look them up. You can't reclass him into anything good. So please stop trying to wiggle your way out of this one: It's not going to fucking work. Look on Gamespot.

And yes, rarely. Very, VERY VERY VERY few people will use him. It's more than obvious why. Just like guys like Wolt, Bors, Rolf, Wil, Leonardo, Marty, etc are played.

Small? Pft, very few people outside of here and Gamespot own the game, I bet.

That doesn't tell me he's played less often. That tells me he sucks. Which is different than being played more often.

Gamespot and GameFAQs do not speak for every single person who has played the game. Gamespot and GameFAQs aren't even full of everyone who's played the game. Therefore they cannot speak for everyone who's played the game.

Obviously Universally known is exaggerated a bit, but SERIOUSLY, please stop trying to deny that Gordin will be used that often. He won't. Why? Because he sucks. It's that fucking simple.

I'm not saying he will be used often, or won't be used often. Or even saying how often he'll be used. There's a chance Nabarl will not be used, there's a chance he will be used. Personally I've used Gordin and Nabarl just as many times as each other (ie for a couple attacks, if anything Gordin got a bit more), but that's my own personal bias and should be left out. Just like how "gordin not being used" is your own personal bias even if others share the same sentiment.

And very few of these preferences will select Gordin, because more people than not like good units.

Not everyone knows who truly is good in our sense (ie the tier list).

For the billionth time I said NOT OFTEN USED. Big fucking difference.

Actually you switched from "not ever used" to "not often used" so I have no clue where you truly stand.

too bad very few characters actually CARE about the speed loss, since basically 80% of them have no issues doubling/one rounding.

...And the ones that do are beyond help until promotion, anyway

I actually am inclined to agree with this. If they're beyond help in Speed anyway, then obviously they don't need the speedwing.

Name me one mid/low mid character that does.

Why limit it to low/low-mid? Gordin needs it even if he is low.

By the way, COTM guy, since you seem to love defying logic that better characters are played more often, let's take a look at other games.

Pokemon is probably one of the best examples here. Now, between Gengar and Farfetche'd, which Pokemon will 90% of serious players take? ...That's what I thought. Gengar is one of the best pokemon in the game, whereas I don't believe any serious player has EVER had Farfetche'd on their team. And for good reason, too. Check out Farfetche'd stats/movelist. Blargh.

Pokemon and Fire Emblem are not the same. 90% of players will obviously play Gengar, and that's why Gengar is in OU while Farfetch'd rots down there. You, sir, have not proven this. And it's hard to prove how often x character is used in FE especially considering the misconceptions that fly around the internet (ie Marcus sucks, Nino is awesome etc).

Pokemon tiers don't work anything like FE tiers, which you quite clearly don't realize.

The rest I will refrain from commenting on. The simple reason is: I've never played those games. I've played Pokemon competitively (taken off now, having a hard time getting back) so I believe I have the knowledge to adequately counter your point.

EDIT: I'm sure smash had some decent Mewtwo players. Tiers were also judged by tournament results and sometimes other factors, if I recall correctly there. FE Tiers are as objective as possible.

Edited January 20, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Mekkah]

If you say that Gordon is played and is getting the Speedwing, then you must also assume that Bartre is played and supports Canas, and that kind of jazz. Good units are more likely to be played than bad units. Really good units are more likely to be played than really bad units.

[Lord Raven]

I'm saying it's a factor in speedwing competition, not necessarily that they're played.

[Dat Nick]

That tells me he sucks

Which is why he's played less often.

Gamespot and GameFAQs do not speak for every single person who has played the game.

It's a good majority, and Gordin has his share of disapproval here. You're not going to win this battle, people know Gordin sucks, so you might as well just stop here.

There's a chance Nabarl will not be used, there's a chance he will be used.

And that chance is larger than Gordin, since he beats Gordin in damn near every way imaginable.

Personally I've used Gordin and Nabarl just as many times as each other

Do I look like I give a damn how you play the game? How you play the game has no effect on what a majority of players think. A MAJORITY OF PLAYERS DISLIKE GORDIN, AND AS SUCH, WILL RARELY, IF EVER, PLAY HIM.

Just like how "gordin not being used" is your own personal bias even if others share the same sentiment.

Not. Used. Often. Do you enjoy pissing me off or are you really that stupid? And it's not bias if it's a fact.

Not everyone knows who truly is good in our sense (ie the tier list).

You don't need to to see that Gordin has no redeeming points that compensate for his hundreds of faults.

Actually you switched from "not ever used" to "not often used"

No, I didn't.

Why limit it to low/low-mid?

Because those characters get played a hell of a lot more often than Gordin, since their performance is actually passable. Also, I said mid to low mid.

Pokemon and Fire Emblem are not the same.

Far more in common than you think.

90% of players will obviously play Gengar, and that's why Gengar is in OU while Farfetch'd rots down there.

Replace "Gengar" with "Cain" and "Farfetch'd" with Gordin.

Hmmmmmmm.

And come to think of it, 90% was probably an understatement.

You, sir, have not proven this.

...Don't tell me you actually expect me to PROVE Farfetcthe'd is NU tier. Everybody knows that. Even the 8 year old kids who play Pokemon know that. You're beyond help if you actually do think Farfetche'd's chance of getting played is even CLOSE to Gengar's. And guess what? The same damn thing applies to FE: Better units get played more often. Why? Look at Pokemon and whatnot: You even admitted this yourself. Just like the same damn thing applies to fighters: If Akuma wasn't banned in SF2, you bet your ass everybody would pick him and nobody would even give Cammy a second look.

And it's hard to prove how often x character is used in FE especially

Do you REALLY think anybody is offering an exact number? No. A rough estimate, more like. It's basically a no-brainer that Rutger makes the team a hell of a lot more often than Wolt does. Especially if this is HM.

used in FE especially considering the misconceptions that fly around the internet (ie Marcus sucks, Nino is awesome etc).

Most of this idiocy was wiped out several years ago, and it continues to diminish today.

Oh yeah, and this isn't a list for casual FE play, just in case you haven't figured that out yet. So I don't really give a fuck what the Est fanboys think or how they play. Just like the FE7 tier doesn't give a fuck about what Nino fanboys think.

Pokemon tiers don't work anything like FE tiers, which you quite clearly don't realize.

The exact same logic applies to them, which YOU quite clearly don't realize.

The simple reason is: I've never played those games.

You don't need to; the exact same logic applies. Better characters will be used more often than worse characters.

...There's only one real competitive Mewtwo player for a reason.

[Rodykitty]

I'm sure Navarre will benefit more from the Speedwing than Gordin will, at the very least.

But that doesn't really have much to do with what the argument started with, since Navarre was being compared to Ogma, who doesn't need a Speedwing.

[Lord Raven]

I'm not going to bother we're repeating points. I didn't even read your post.

Sir, I'm not even denying that Cav Nabarl is better than Ogma before promotion.

However, I'll say this;

- Ogma exists for one more chapter.

- Ogma's offense is better when their existence coincides, which is the chapter right after you recruit Ogma. Merc Ogma > Myrmidon Nabarl, for many reasons in that chapter. Next chapter is when he can reclass, though. Read next bullet.

- Ogma's offense is better until Nabarl gets the speedwing. They're both pretty even afterwards.

- Ogma's durability is win against Nabarl's after promotion; Ogma has one less defense with axes. With a bunch more HP.

- Ogma can afford more to go out in a group, Nabarl can't as much. Neither will be going out all by themselves, because this is FE DS where nothing can evade, and they can still get pretty easily killed when ganged up on. I'm saying that 2 move is the only advantage here, and it's a slight advantage at best because Ogma is infinitely winning after promotion.

This is what I care about.

Edited January 20, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Dat Nick]

Since you finally ditched the Horseman argument [which I still don't know why you kept trying to argue after I proved it was bullshit about 10,000 times when all you had to do was say Hero Ogma beat Cav Nabarl] and since he actually is better as Hero, fine, it's on my to do list.

Edited January 20, 2009 by MightyZagaro

[Lord Raven]

I actually ditched it a couple posts before that, but that's beside the point.

I was also nitpicky with the choice of words, but it was stupid in retrospect.

(I don't fully agree that lower on tier list = more often used but that's just me, not like it made a difference here actually).

Edited January 20, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Dat Nick]

Doesn't explain why you kept trying to argue for it after I tore it apart about fifty times, but whatever.

[Mekkah]

I'm saying it's a factor in speedwing competition, not necessarily that they're played.

Okay, we'll factor in that Gordin cannot get the Speedwings that Nabarre takes away.

Factoring...

[... ... ... ...]

Factoring is completed.

Gordin went from bad to bad.

[Lord Raven]

Okay, we'll factor in that Gordin cannot get the Speedwings that Nabarre takes away.

Then we factor in how Gordin can get the speedwings that Nabarl takes away?

[Dat Nick]

Then we factor, how is Gordin getting the Speedwings if he's not getting played? Would you just toss a pair to Bartre if he was rotting on the bench, like he will be in most playthroughs?

Sure, if you play Gordin, he has a chance at it. The problem is, well, Gordin won't be played often, because he's downright rubbish. When Gordin's not played, Nabarl gets the speedwings. When Nabarl's not played, Gordin gets the speedwings. But guess which scenario happens more often?

Edited January 20, 2009 by MightyZagaro

[Rodykitty]

When we factor speed wings when Gordin is getting played and Gordin gets them, maybe Gordin might re-arrange within his own tier or be penalized for taking away from other characters.

[Dat Nick]

..Looking back, Gordin has 7 spd at lvl 10. Still 7 if he's lvl 11. And this is being GENEROUS to Gordin since his EXP gain is so horrid. 11 spd is juuuust enough to double everything in C9. If 9 spd didn't cut it in C9, it won't cut it in C10, or C11 for that matter, especially since C11 has it's share of mercs.

...Meanwhile, Nabarl has about 9 AS at that time, and he'll probably he higher than lvl 11 since he can actually keep up with the pack AND kill things. [Gordin can do neither] Go figure.

(I don't fully agree that lower on tier list = more often used

Well, of COURSE not, what kind of idiotic notion is that? How could Tomas being in the bottom of bottom tier possibly imply he is used more often than, say, Zagaro?

...Speaking of Gordin.

Norne and Gordin swapped? We kinda discussed this a while ago but never took it into action.

Edited January 20, 2009 by MightyZagaro

[Lord Raven]

It'd help if you put the up to date tier list on the first page.

[Dat Nick]

It's on my to do list. Finding where the hell the tier currently is is the hard part >_>

[Dr. Tarrasque]

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?...st&p=299392

That's the last update you did. Edit the first post to make it easier for you update and so that people don't have to dig around to see it. Edit ANY time there's an adjustment so that no1 repeats something like "Why is Nabarl above Ogma".

[Rodykitty]

Which is what I'm doing for my own topic.

BTW, I made an argument against putting Ymir in bottom tier on the H5 list. Go look at it if you disagree.

[Lord Raven]

I wouldn't quit switch Gordin and Norne considering Gordin's defense, but Norne is definitely better.

[Dat Nick]

one second

Top:

Merric

Sedgar

Xane

High:

Wolf

Abel

Frey

Cain

Marth

Barst

Upper-Mid:

Ogma

Nabarl

Athena

Hardain

Darros

Julian

Nagi

Mid:

Catria

Lena

Cord

Vyland

Caesar

Palla

Jake

Beck

Tiki

Lower-Mid:

Castor

Matthis

Radd

Horace

Minerva

Bantu

Shiida

Rickard

Draug

Roger

Gotoh

Low:

Wendell

Jagen

Wyrs

Maria

Boah

Etzel

Jeorge

Dolph

Ymir

Linde

Elice

Bottom:

Gordin

Astram

Samson

Lorenz

Roshea

Arran

Midia

Macellan

Norne

Bord

Tomas

Fail:

Est

EDIT: Okay, done. Also, come to think of it, bottom tier could do with a bit of re-arranging.

I propose...

Norne

Lorenz

Samson

Astram

Bord

Macellan

Roshea

Arran

Midia

Gordin

Tomas

look okay?

Edited January 21, 2009 by MightyZagaro

[Sylvan]

I'd say bord above Lorenz and Samson

[Lord Raven]

As far as I'm aware Samson starts 9 levels higher than Astram with 2 more Str/Spd, 1 more Def and 2 less HP. All gaps are going to close pretty quickly considering how Astram's got better growths in all those departments except Spd and Def. But plenty of time to catch up.

[Dat Nick]

Hm. Astram is actually MORE durable than Samson, and he'll hit the magic 18 spd for Endgame, and he's around longer. His jointime is still pathetic, but I guess it's better than Samson.