So...let's talk tiers.

[Mekkah]

What B2BD means is that he isn't any better than the three cavs after Prologue is over. I don't even know what point you're trying to make.

[riariadne]

What B2BD means is that he isn't any better than the three cavs after Prologue is over. I don't even know what point you're trying to make.

Sure he's better for at least a few chapters. Silver lance on those pirates in chapter 1 and 2. Then you could let someone else have the kill. He makes it easy to make your other guys get better, which is useful. Also he helps if you like beating the chapters fast.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Its hard to go wrong with him. Possible, but hard. You'd have to get him surrounded on purpose. Or you could just be reckless.

Also, when is having a silver lance so early not better than Iron stuff? It has like 90 hit anyways at WTD, and deals huge damage even against bosses.

This is what, just the prologue? Using Jagen at all in the prologue is a bad for EXP. There's no rank on it but why the hell would you wanna use a unit that has poor improvement? Him doing anything in the prologue is more of a liability.

[Mekkah]

It is more efficient for that point of time though, and any "poor improvement" is reflected by him being worse later on. The problem is that "Jeigan killz stuff with Silver Lance for the prologue + first 3 maps" is not exactly a good reason to move him up in a tier list. The tier list is not about just how good Jeigan is, it is about how good he is compared to other dudes.

[riariadne]

It is more efficient for that point of time though, and any "poor improvement" is reflected by him being worse later on. The problem is that "Jeigan killz stuff with Silver Lance for the prologue + first 3 maps" is not exactly a good reason to move him up in a tier list. The tier list is not about just how good Jeigan is, it is about how good he is compared to other dudes.

He doesn't kill stuff after prologue with silver lance. He just weakens them severely, making it easier for other units to get the kill exp.

[grandjackal]

He doesn't kill stuff after prologue with silver lance. He just weakens them severely, making it easier for other units to get the kill exp.

It's not hard enough to warrent Jagen going up at all. After prologue (the time anyone is killing everything, except for Gordon), everyone's not having a hard time two rounding these guys (Cain's got the strength, Abel's got the speed and lance rank, Frey has a bit of both.), Doga can do the same thing too, and with better durability no less.

The fact Jagen needs a silver lance to do this is ugh. Everyone not Gordon's destroying prologue, in chapter 1 he can't two round unless he has an iron lance (something everyone else is doing), and he's not gaining enough exp to have gained a level by chapter 1 (not that he'd get anything out of it).

In other modes I could understand when 4 of some of the best units in the game can't make great use of prologue experience. But...

Edited March 7, 2009 by Grandjackal

[Rodykitty]

Bishop reclass adds to Jeigan's longevity. Probably why he's right below Wendell.

Edited March 7, 2009 by Chainey

[Dat Nick]

This isn't FE7 HHM or FE9 Hard mode. Jagen's earlygame is a hell of a long way off from w1n. All Jagen does is not get raped by the cavs at this timeframe. Cavs win stats, Jeigan has move. ...What, Silver Lance? That screws him over rather than helping since then he's facing the WTD and still two-rounding, so it didn't help his offense at all.

Hell, Doga's getting tinked by the pirates and two rounding them. His utility>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jagen's.

[riariadne]

This isn't FE7 HHM or FE9 Hard mode. Jagen's earlygame is a hell of a long way off from w1n. All Jagen does is not get raped by the cavs at this timeframe. Cavs win stats, Jeigan has move. ...What, Silver Lance? That screws him over rather than helping since then he's facing the WTD and still two-rounding, so it didn't help his offense at all.

Hell, Doga's getting tinked by the pirates and two rounding them. His utility>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jagen's.

He 3 rounds pirates without Silver Lance, and what I'm TRYING to say is that he helps weaken so other units (Marf, Caeda, Norne if you got her, whoever wasn't the decoy) can get some exp. That's a great utility in this early part of the game.

[dondon151]

I find Doga>Jagen to be an utterly ridiculous claim. Doga has half of Jagen's move and 2 less move than most foot units. That alone murders his utility.

[Dat Nick]

He 3 rounds pirates without Silver Lance

Oh, I'm sorry, my mistake.

His offense/durability isn't on par with the cavs. It's WORSE.

That's a great utility in this early part of the game.

Except this isn't FE6 where you need Jeigan to weaken and your units are more than capable of handling themselves here. Anybody competent, anyway.

I find Doga>Jagen to be an utterly ridiculous claim. Doga has half of Jagen's move and 2 less move than most foot units.

you conveniently left out the detail that Doga is invincible in this chapter. Hell, he's invincible the entire game. Jagen starts failing at life whereas Doga has SOMETHING going for him. His lategame [20/1 and beyond] is pretty effing win too.

Edited March 8, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[dondon151]

His offense/durability isn't on par with the cavs. It's WORSE.

Assuming 2 levels for each of Frey, Cain, and Abel, they either tie or win by 1 in strength and tie or lose by 1 in defense. They're not quite at Jagen's 22 HP base and their defense is still more than 1 point away from Jagen's base of 9. Jagen also gets Silver Lance and 1 move. How is any of this (well, except the strength) worse?

Except this isn't FE6 where you need Jeigan to weaken and your units are more than capable of handling themselves here. Anybody competent, anyway.

Except this isn't FE6 and you don't need Frey, Cain, or Abel to get through the game (you didn't need Allen or Lance either, but I'm being sarcastic here). Arguing relative utility is worthless as it's easy to write any unit off because "someone else can do it" (and in this case, Jagen does it better for like, the first 2 chapters).

you conveniently left out the detail that Doga is invincible in this chapter. Hell, he's invincible the entire game. Jagen starts failing at life whereas Doga has SOMETHING going for him. His lategame [20/1 and beyond] is pretty effing win too.

First, I didn't say anything about lategame. Second, Jagen concedes 2 defense to Doga. If Doga's literally invincible, it takes 11 rounds of combat to kill Jagen, so that claim is outrageous. Third, Jagen still moves twice as far as Doga every turn.

Edited March 9, 2009 by dondon151

[Dat Nick]

Assuming 2 levels for each of Frey, Cain, and Abel, they either tie or win by 1 in strength and tie or lose by 1 in defense. They're not quite at Jagen's 22 HP base

?

5/0 Marth: 21 HP, 7 str, 8 def

4/0 Abel: 22 HP, 7 str, 8 def

4/0 Frey: 20 HP, 8 str, 8 def

3/0 Cain: 21 HP, 8 str, 7 def

Okay, they aren't quite there yet, but Jagen's lead is so minisucle now it's irrelevant.

Jagen also gets Silver Lance and 1 move.

Except now they WIN durability when he switches to Silver Lance, and they kill the bandits as fast as he can with silver anyway.

and you don't need Frey, Cain, or Abel to get through the game

...you're missing the entire point of that analogy

Said analogy pointing out that most Jeigans after Jeigan are vital for earlygame. Jeigan himself is not [not on this mode anyway], and by the time we get the battle preparations menu, he's obsolete. Even FE6 Marcus lasts longer than that.

so that claim is outrageous.

Every single pirate on the C1 map tinks Doga. So he IS literally invincible.

Try it if you don't believe it.

Edited March 9, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[Lord Raven]

Doesn't he take 2 damage from each Pirate? I'm pretty sure it's not a tink..

[Rodykitty]

Doesn't he take 2 damage from each Pirate? I'm pretty sure it's not a tink..

That's what I was thinking (didn't try testing), but even then he's still pretty much invincible unless you let him sit there and slowly get killed.

[CT075]

Said analogy pointing out that most Jeigans after Jeigan are vital for earlygame. Jeigan himself is not [not on this mode anyway], and by the time we get the battle preparations menu, he's obsolete. Even FE6 Marcus lasts longer than that.

Every single pirate on the C1 map tinks Doga. So he IS literally invincible.

Try it if you don't believe it.

I've tried. The pirates do 1 damage each.

[grandjackal]

Either way, his durability stomps all those around. He wouldn't mind a couple levels as an armor knight before switching to dark mage for the possible defense and HP.

[Dat Nick]

he'd just counter-kill them, anyway. Draug's not dying unless you try to get him killed. And even then it's still freaking hard.

[riariadne]

he'd just counter-kill them, anyway. Draug's not dying unless you try to get him killed. And even then it's still freaking hard.

Same with Jagen. He takes 11 hits to die, and gets hit about 75% of the time. So he gets about 15 rounded by pirates. That's awesome.

Also, the "just cause Jagen can do it doesn't mean that you shouldn't use Cain/Abel/Frey" thing applies to Jagen and Draug too. So now you're going back on your own theory. Smart.

[Dat Nick]

Same with Jagen. He takes 11 hits to die, and gets hit about 75% of the time. So he gets about 15 rounded by pirates. That's awesome.

same with abel/frey/cain/marth

they aren't going to die unless you try, especially since Marth should have a good deal of vulns left.

also, only 75%? Somebody's ignoring the concept of real hit.

Also, the "just cause Jagen can do it doesn't mean that you shouldn't use Cain/Abel/Frey" thing applies to Jagen and Draug too.

Mind telling me when the hell I ever said that?

What I AM saying is Jagen's earlygame utility means basically nothing since he's never a huge leap above the other cavs like Marcus/Seth/Titania are. For the time being he's just on par with them, by chapter 2 they win, and it keeps going pretty fast to the point where Jagen only has a head on failures like the Captain and Julian. Earlygame utility would make a difference if there was the same gap between units and the Jeigan that there is in FE6/7/8/9, but he's only marginally better at best, and he starts getting overshadowed pretty god damn quickly. By the time you get the preparations menu, he's gone.

On H5 it's way different since his silver spear can actually be useful, plus Marth and the cavs lose their level lead so he's significantly better than them now.

But this isn't the H5 tier list.

[Mekkah]

So far all the justification I've heard for Sedgar a tier above Wolf is "he starts tanking much faster". I find that unbelievable, and it's not like Wolf has nothing to counter it. He starts with 1 more Spd, for one, so he stops getting doubled slightly earlier. 3 more base Luk also exists for the CEV it adds - nothing big, but it's there, as well as 20% more growth.

Then when they grow, Wolf is 2 levels higher, so he is perhaps slightly slower at that. However, he has a significant 20% Str growth lead. That can very well be argued as useful (or useless) as Zagaro's 20% def growth lead. When you tink everything as a General, I'd rather do more damage so others can finish off more easily, or I can do it more easily myself. Or when you're a Hero and doubling, I'd rather do more damage when doubling.

Again, I'm not saying Wolf > Sedgar. I'm saying that there being anything between them is not logical at all, be it Xane or a tier gap or both.

Edited March 10, 2009 by Mekkah

[grandjackal]

So far all the justification I've heard for Sedgar a tier above Wolf is "he starts tanking much faster". I find that unbelievable, and it's not like Wolf has nothing to counter it. He starts with 1 more Spd, for one, so he stops getting doubled slightly earlier. 3 more base Luk also exists for the CEV it adds - nothing big, but it's there, as well as 20% more growth.

Then when they grow, Wolf is 2 levels higher, so he is perhaps slightly slower at that. However, he has a significant 20% Str growth lead. That can very well be argued as useful (or useless) as Zagaro's 20% def growth lead. When you think everything as a General, I'd rather do more damage so others can finish off more easily, or I can do it more easily myself. Or when you're a Hero and doubling, I'd rather do more damage when doubling.

Again, I'm not saying Wolf > Sedgar. I'm saying that there being anything between them is not logical at all, be it Xane or a tier gap or both.

This.

Basically, Wolf is off to a better start and is not significantly hampered either. Can be warped to block off that point in chapter 6 where the silver lance cav comes in with the steel lancer and thief and WON'T get doubled by the silver lancer, so he's effectively a better tank than Sedgar. All Sedgar has is overkill defense when Wolf has enough anyways. Sedgar can go hero and have worse offense than most for little while. As a general, he's doing nothing more than Wolf would as a general. I'd say Wolf is better a general anyways.

If Wolf isn't better, he's at least close enough to Sedgar.

[Rodykitty]

So far all the justification I've heard for Sedgar a tier above Wolf is "he starts tanking much faster". I find that unbelievable, and it's not like Wolf has nothing to counter it. He starts with 1 more Spd, for one, so he stops getting doubled slightly earlier. 3 more base Luk also exists for the CEV it adds - nothing big, but it's there, as well as 20% more growth.

Then when they grow, Wolf is 2 levels higher, so he is perhaps slightly slower at that. However, he has a significant 20% Str growth lead. That can very well be argued as useful (or useless) as Zagaro's 20% def growth lead. When you think everything as a General, I'd rather do more damage so others can finish off more easily, or I can do it more easily myself. Or when you're a Hero and doubling, I'd rather do more damage when doubling.

Again, I'm not saying Wolf > Sedgar. I'm saying that there being anything between them is not logical at all, be it Xane or a tier gap or both.

This is a very good argument, and I'm swayed. Would you say that this would apply to H5 as well?

[grandjackal]

This is a very good argument, and I'm swayed. Would you say that this would apply to H5 as well?

I'm swayed too, but I do not speak for him when I say that I think Wolf's speed, luck and health are a pretty key factor for him. I'm not too far into H5, but I'd think mages would have skill and thus crit on yrou guys, so his speed, health AND luck would be a deciding factor for Wolf in both his start and later performance. None too sure how vulnerable enemy mages are, but I thinks Wolf's better strength would help him smoke these punks too.

[Mekkah]

In H5, Segdar's slightly higher Def becomes more pronounced even as a General, since everything pretty much doubles them now, and he has to get healed less often. When you're getting swarmed by 3 enemies and doubled, having one more def means you take 6 less damage per round. As a Hero, they'll both generally get 2HKOed for a long time, iirc.

Still a very close race obviously, more of a judgement call than anything.