How do you treat Flayn, Cyril, Petra and Lysithea?

[DefyingFates]

This question has been in my head ever since I learned Petra's age back about three years ago but never properly figured out how to phrase my thoughts until now. Also, while I suspect S Supports (as well as romance or anything else related to that 😐) will come up at some point in this discussion, I'm just looking at these four in general.

First off, a lot of fiction, especially stories set in "olden times" play fast and loose with ages, with teens being given ages that just make them "young" to fit them in a proactive character archetype or so younger consumers can identify with them. Fire Emblem does this all the time (each Lord ends up ruling a kingdom at 16~18) and some characters even consider being in their 20s to be old, but this also shows up in Western media or Western-inspired media (how many 15 years olds can freely travel the world like Sonic can?) This is why I didn't mind the whole "teacher marries students" thing too... for the most part.

Anyway, a character's age only becomes important when they specifically act childish. For example, while I don't think many here disagree that Lysithea comes across as a kid, I was personally shocked when I read that Petra was the same age as her, yet from talk around her at the time (including who people S Supported) it felt as if the fandom treated her as an adult. Ditto for Cyril, who's the same age and fairly mature as well. And then of course there's Flayn, who acts mature in some ways but is still precocious in others. I think it's weird to put her in either the "kid" or "adult" camp.

Just to get it out of the way, it was the contrast between how Petra and Lysithea are treated that made me want to write this. The two are the same age, yet the way they're written makes them both feel completely different to the playerbase. I... had a lot more to say here but can't remember any of it. I guess I just wanted to ask how, in addition to these four specific character examples, you treat ages in media not set in the present day (or in a sci-fi setting, since those usually use ages the same way)?

Thanks for reading and indulging this weird... ramble? Though experiment? I don't know. Thank you again!

Edited September 1, 2023 by DefyingFates

[Jotari]

Huh. So Petra is just as much of a prodigy as Lysethia and just doesn't brag about it.

To answer the question, I just don't...really care. A line of dialogue or a profile bio can say anything about a characters age and it doesn't really matter (see Saphir apparently being like 35 or something). It's the quality of the writing that is going to make it believable to me that X Character is Y age.

Edited September 1, 2023 by Jotari

[Florete]

I tend not to care about the written ages of fictional, animated characters. How they're portrayed is what matters to me. Especially in Japanese media, because Japan loves to make characters technically underage but then design them in ways no minor would look or act, and clearly expect them to be treated as such. You can call it gross if you want and I won't disagree with you, but when this happens it's just to make things more marketable to younger audiences, and I find it's just too much hassle to worry about.

I didn't even know Petra was the same age as Lysithea until reading this. I see Petra and Flayn as leaning on the adult side, while Lysithea and Cyril lean on the child side (pre timeskip, anyway). But even then they're considered old enough in-universe to be sent to die in battle, so *shrug*.

[Armchair General]

Lysithea is that kid who thinks that they're hot shit, but routinely falls for some mind games that most adults would pick up on. But in all honesty, she's genuinely out of her element solely because she's trying so hard at being mature, that she's doomed to fail. 

As with Petra, it's more of an example of her being raised to be more responsible because of the unique situation that she's in and she's making the most of it. In fact, it's probably an cultural difference between Brigid and most of Fodlan for her to be so insightful.

Cyril had nobody who cared for him aside from Rhea and some members of the church, so there's some attachment issues going on with him.

With Flayn, it's either an elaborate act, it's an part of her personality, or it's something else. Or it's probably all three.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

6 hours ago, DefyingFates said:

Ditto for Cyril, who's the same age and fairly mature as well.

Cyril very much comes across as "mature and wise beyond his years", though. Like, it's obvious that he's still a kid by his appearance, even if his personality - aside from his Rhea-worship - is mature and composed.

Petra never comes across as younger than her peers, and she certainly doesn't look it. The game could've said that she's 19, rather than 15, pre-skip, and I would've found it equally plausible.

Flayn... I'm not going to entertain anything here. Not without confirmation that Seteth isn't reading my responses. I do not need another trip to his office.

Lysithea definitely comes across as young, in personality and appearance. But at least this is less the case post-skip. And she's voiced by Janice Kawaye, so I'm not going to deny the wishes of anyone who grew up with a crush on Jenny the Teenage Robot.

S-suppprts are weird, they've always been weird, especially in the context of a player-character who represents the player's control in deciding who gets with whom. But I don't know if it's uniquely worse for the "kid" characters, as compared to the slightly older students, or even the adults. They all exhibit the same degree of agency in-narrative in terms of choosing their own relationship. Which is to say, not really any... but at the end of the day, it's just a game, and who am I to stand in the way of player's freedom?

[MeteorPhoenix]

I absolutely love Cyril. Everyone is asking him, what is your opinion on the socioeconomic status of the Almyran lower classes? And he's like, can you move, I have so much crap to do.

[Etrurian emperor]

I recall the height chart showing Flayn being taller than Edelgard which considering she's never ever treated like a kid I find kinda funny. In Flayn's case children are as children do. More so than Lysithea or Petra she acts like a little girl so that's how I see her. Unlike the others she's probably not going to get any older.

As for the others. Aside from Lysithea's bratty ''I'm not a kid!'' behavior I don't see them as any more like a kid than the likes of Ashe, Annette, Caspar or Linhardt. The line between 15 and 16 isn't that big, and someone like Caspar behaves far more like a kid than Cyril or Petra do. Then you have someone like Bernadetta who's technically an adult but who's far more the baby of the Beagles than Petra could ever be in both design and personality. 

Ashe is also an interesting case. He looks and acts like everyone's favorite little bro but since he's dependable no one ever treats him as anything less then an equal. 

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

They all exhibit the same degree of agency in-narrative in terms of choosing their own relationship. Which is to say, not really any... but at the end of the day, it's just a game, and who am I to stand in the way of player's freedom?

Everyone except Alois! The only morally correct S support.

[Dark Holy Elf]

22 hours ago, DefyingFates said:

Anyway, a character's age only becomes important when they specifically act childish. For example, while I don't think many here disagree that Lysithea comes across as a kid, I was personally shocked when I read that Petra was the same age as her, yet from talk around her at the time (including who people S Supported) it felt as if the fandom treated her as an adult. Ditto for Cyril, who's the same age and fairly mature as well. And then of course there's Flayn, who acts mature in some ways but is still precocious in others. I think it's weird to put her in either the "kid" or "adult" camp.

 

Interesting that you group Cyril as an adult; I personally thought he was incredibly kid-coded. He looks significantly smaller than any other male character pre-timeskip, and he's blunt and kinda socially unaware in a way kids often are. Interestingly, Lysithea and Cyril are shipped together relatively often by the fanbase (I think it's each character's most popular one? It's certainly Cyril's), and I don't think it's a coincidence that this happened to the two most obviously "kid-coded" characters.

Though it's worth emphasizing, of course, that even in the real world people are varied; I've certainly taught 15-year-olds who look older than the average 18-year old. Or who act more mature. Or, in rarer cases, both. So with that in mind there's certainly no character age in 3H I consider to be unrealistic (with obvious magical exceptions like Rhea and Jeralt).

22 hours ago, Jotari said:

Huh. So Petra is just as much of a prodigy as Lysethia and just doesn't brag about it.

Edelgard calls Petra "incredibly smart" in her introductions of the students to Byleth during Chapter 1. She's meant to be extremely competent at both martial and intellectual skills for her age, and I think players sometimes underestimate her a bit because of her weak grasp of Fodlan language. She brags a bit less than Lysithea perhaps, but I wouldn't exactly call her humble either; just look at her supports with Edelgard, Hubert, or Claude for examples of the fact that she knows she's good.

13 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I recall the height chart showing Flayn being taller than Edelgard

If so it's incorrect, Flayn is 151 cm (relatively short) while Edelgard is 158 (slightly below average). That said dress, demeanor, and body shape all count for a lot when considering if a character looks like a child - nobody would ever mistake Edelgard or the even shorter Hilda as children, while thinking Flayn is a child at first glance seems reasonable to me.

13 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Aside from Lysithea's bratty ''I'm not a kid!'' behavior I don't see them as any more like a kid than the likes of Ashe, Annette, Caspar or Linhardt. The line between 15 and 16 isn't that big, and someone like Caspar behaves far more like a kid than Cyril or Petra do. Then you have someone like Bernadetta who's technically an adult but who's far more the baby of the Beagles than Petra could ever be in both design and personality. 

Yeah I think to varying degrees those characters you mention all come across as younger due to their personalities and in some cases design. Caspar in particular "acts" the youngest of any character IMO, though I definitely buy him as 16-17.

16 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

S-suppprts are weird, they've always been weird, especially in the context of a player-character who represents the player's control in deciding who gets with whom. But I don't know if it's uniquely worse for the "kid" characters, as compared to the slightly older students, or even the adults. They all exhibit the same degree of agency in-narrative in terms of choosing their own relationship. Which is to say, not really any... but at the end of the day, it's just a game, and who am I to stand in the way of player's freedom?

FE3H at least is one of the more benign cases of it in the series. Cyril is the youngest character in the cast, and he's 20 by the time the game ends (Lysithea is 21). So it definitely manages to avoid the skeeviness of pairing certain young characters which Awakening and Fates both had.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

Flayn -> White Magic into Gremory

Garden Boy -> Bench

Lysithea -> anything magical

Petra -> Assassin/Sniper/WL

Everywhere I go, Child Soldiers all around.

[Original Alear]

On 9/2/2023 at 12:10 AM, Armchair General said:

With Flayn, it's either an elaborate act, it's an part of her personality, or it's something else. Or it's probably all three.

I think Flayn's precociousness is genuine, just like Seteth's protectiveness of her despite her technical age is genuine.

[DefyingFates]

On 5/15/2024 at 12:05 AM, Original Alear said:

I think Flayn's precociousness is genuine, just like Seteth's protectiveness of her despite her technical age is genuine.

Yeah, they'd be way too committed to the act otherwise 😛

[Etrurian emperor]

Flayn is a bit unlike the usual dragon loli since her support states than rather having lived for thousands of years without stopping to be a little girl she was instead in a coma for much of Fodlan's history. So in some sense she could actually be as young as she appears to be. 

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Flayn is a bit unlike the usual dragon loli since her support states than rather having lived for thousands of years without stopping to be a little girl she was instead in a coma for much of Fodlan's history. So in some sense she could actually be as young as she appears to be. 

That is literally Tiki.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

That is literally Tiki.

But if Tiki and Flayn are so young due to spending most of their time in cryosleep, then why is Nowi, who might be even older, and has no known history of long stasis, so childish in look and attitude?

Unless... oh, gods, it's just come to me. She's been aging backwards. "Nowi" is what happens when a divine dragon degenerates. ...Which is also the sort of folks who marry her, ay-oh!

On 9/2/2023 at 5:40 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

FE3H at least is one of the more benign cases of it in the series. Cyril is the youngest character in the cast, and he's 20 by the time the game ends (Lysithea is 21). So it definitely manages to avoid the skeeviness of pairing certain young characters which Awakening and Fates both had.

A while back, but since I'm here...

Er, sort of? Cyril might actually be "less bad" than Flayn or Lysithea, since I'm not sure he was ever actually my student. Even when recruiting him, it's no much that he "joins the class" as "stops by for classes and goes on missions every now and then". At least, that's my reading. So while Teach has some authority over him, it's not necessarily to the same degree as to that of the "students-proper".

...Of course, by the time S-ranks can happen (the post-skip), Teach isn't functioning so much as a Professor anymore. They're more of a Strategist, or General. Or, on Silver Snow, a "Charismatic Leader". So maybe it's a wash.

As for Awakening, I'm generally fine with young pairings, owing to the whole "time travel" detail. Suppose I pair Lissa and Donnel, and then get Owain as a result. This doesn't necessarily mean that their relationship was, er-herm, "consummated" within the timeframe of the game. It could happen well after we defeat Grima. Or maybe never, since Owain wasn't born to this version of Lissa, but a "bad future" version. In that context, I'm not really making anything happen! ...Admittedly, they do use the UI wordings of "husband" and "wife", which can feel skeevy, depending on the characters involved.

Fates doesn't have this excuse, and I will never feel comfortable treating Elise like "the adult she technically is". Not to mention, letting 9 months pass at My Castle for every Paralogue I wanna unlock. I swear, they could've put a nursery on the My Castle grounds, and it'd be ten times as secure as any Deeprealm.

[Jotari]

11 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

But if Tiki and Flayn are so young due to spending most of their time in cryosleep, then why is Nowi, who might be even older, and has no known history of long stasis, so childish in look and attitude?

Unless... oh, gods, it's just come to me. She's been aging backwards. "Nowi" is what happens when a divine dragon degenerates. ...Which is also the sort of folks who marry her, ay-oh!

A while back, but since I'm here...

Er, sort of? Cyril might actually be "less bad" than Flayn or Lysithea, since I'm not sure he was ever actually my student. Even when recruiting him, it's no much that he "joins the class" as "stops by for classes and goes on missions every now and then". At least, that's my reading. So while Teach has some authority over him, it's not necessarily to the same degree as to that of the "students-proper".

...Of course, by the time S-ranks can happen (the post-skip), Teach isn't functioning so much as a Professor anymore. They're more of a Strategist, or General. Or, on Silver Snow, a "Charismatic Leader". So maybe it's a wash.

The only ethical relationship in Three Houses is Shamir. Don't @ me.

11 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

As for Awakening, I'm generally fine with young pairings, owing to the whole "time travel" detail. Suppose I pair Lissa and Donnel, and then get Owain as a result. This doesn't necessarily mean that their relationship was, er-herm, "consummated" within the timeframe of the game. It could happen well after we defeat Grima. Or maybe never, since Owain wasn't born to this version of Lissa, but a "bad future" version. In that context, I'm not really making anything happen! ...Admittedly, they do use the UI wordings of "husband" and "wife", which can feel skeevy, depending on the characters involved.

Fates doesn't have this excuse, and I will never feel comfortable treating Elise like "the adult she technically is". Not to mention, letting 9 months pass at My Castle for every Paralogue I wanna unlock. I swear, they could've put a nursery on the My Castle grounds, and it'd be ten times as secure as any Deeprealm.

My Castle dies have those invasion chapters. Maybe we should have the nursery be a building you actually have to put down and if it gets destroyed during an invasion then all the children die and you get no more child units.

[Acacia Sgt]

42 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

But if Tiki and Flayn are so young due to spending most of their time in cryosleep, then why is Nowi, who might be even older, and has no known history of long stasis, so childish in look and attitude?

Unless... oh, gods, it's just come to me. She's been aging backwards. "Nowi" is what happens when a divine dragon degenerates. ...Which is also the sort of folks who marry her, ay-oh!

For its worth, her supports with Nah do shed a light into at least her behavior.

Quote

Nah:
Mother, you need to take this more seriously! We're in the midst of a war!
 

Nowi:
I KNOW, silly. But thinking about it all the time isn't going to help me! The tougher things get, the more I laugh, and that makes everyone else laugh, too. I think that's kind of my job here. To keep everyone smiling.
 

Nah:
Wait. You think your role in this army is to play all the time?
 

Nowi:
Exactamundo! So what do you say? Let's go play!
 

Nah:
*Sigh* Well you certainly are good at your "job," I'll give you that...

Quote

Nowi:
Nah, when it comes to thinking or studying, I leave that to Chrom and Robin. I trust them to do their egghead jobs, and they trust me to fight.
 

Nah:
Yes, but training and studying...that's how we grow stronger.
 

Nowi:
You DO know that training isn't the only way to make yourself strong, don't you?
 

Nah:
But how else... Wait. Are these games how you practice for battle?
 

Nowi:
Well, it tired YOU out, didn't it? The more you play, the stronger you get!

I don't know if this is what the Japanese support says too or it was changed in localization, but here at least they try to stablish that Nowi's childish behavior is in part an act. Part of it as a defense mechanism against the tough times they brave through, it seems, and the other part as a way to keep everyone else in good spirits as well. Something like the self-proclaimed Morale Officer of the Shepherds.

Your mileage may vary if this approach to her character works, but considering things, it likely did not.

[lenticular]

55 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Er, sort of? Cyril might actually be "less bad" than Flayn or Lysithea, since I'm not sure he was ever actually my student. Even when recruiting him, it's no much that he "joins the class" as "stops by for classes and goes on missions every now and then". At least, that's my reading. So while Teach has some authority over him, it's not necessarily to the same degree as to that of the "students-proper".

...Of course, by the time S-ranks can happen (the post-skip), Teach isn't functioning so much as a Professor anymore. They're more of a Strategist, or General. Or, on Silver Snow, a "Charismatic Leader". So maybe it's a wash.

I'm also not sure exactly how much actual authority we should interpret Byleth as having over their students. I am about as far from being an expert on medieval education as it is possible to be, but I assume the dynamic was completely different to what we'd see in modern schooling. I imagine that if the heir apparent to a third of a continent got into an argument with their tutor, it's probably going to be the tutor who ends up getting in trouble a lot of the time. But then, I also doubt that Gareg Mach looks anything like actual historical medieval education. But it also doesn't look a whole lot like modern education either. So I do think it's open to a fairly wide range of interpretations.

55 minutes ago, Jotari said:

The only ethical relationship in Three Houses is Shamir.

I am curious what you have against Hanneman.

[Jotari]

13 minutes ago, lenticular said:

I am curious what you have against Hanneman.

Don't date your coworkers. It's a H.R minefield (Shamir and Catherine are in a separate department, so they're fine, but Catherine is too married to the job).