leesangstar10

hmmm I wonder if these units are going to appear in chapter 13. Church as an empty spot so Constance should be fine, but I am curious about Hapi and Balthus.

I think being relevant through the whole game is much better than being mediocre/bad most of the game and only good late game. This is way too much investment. I would also like to mention that monsters that have magic/crit barrier, ballistas, meteor/bolting could screw this build, which is very relevant late game.

First, we assume optimal play. So no beginner mistake unfortunately. And just because hubert is available for one route he shouldn't be punished for that. First, Lorenz benefits more as the mage warlock route because warlock gets black tome flair. Increasing his damage output by 5 with the addition to fiendish blow. You only get the free fiendish blow when you are a dark bishop(also blows don't stack i heard), so once you promote to a dark knight that benefit disappears. Sure poison strike does 20% dmg, but fiendish blow is better. Most people prefer having higher prob to kill then softening units. Third, Lorenz should not be in the front line since his spd isn't that good(7spd and 40%). He def will not doubling and will get doubled by any most units in the beginning(since he will get weigh down by spells). Other mages should never be in the front line. While on the subject of stats, he has the worst base magic out of all the mages(7 mag at base, others are 10 or above). His early damage output is going to be much less than the other mages early game. Forth, Arrow of Indra can only be obtain in Crimson flower and Verdant Wind I believe. You obtain Arrow of Indra at the last chapter of Verdant Wind so you can't forge it and Crimson Flower in part 2, so you can only use it late game and you are competing it with Hubert though. Lorenz is just mediocre at everything, which is why he isn't as highly rated. There's just better options most of the time. Ex. Lysithea for dmg, Dorthea similar to Lorenz but has physics and meteor, Annette can rally very useful early game. Also just because he can use thyrsus without any penalty should not raise him any higher much. In maddening, mages hp hardly matters because most die in one shot anyways, even Lorenz.

This forum is kind of died, but we got new units to talk about. Anna: A worse Petra but has a crest. Worse growth rates, auto levels(Anna does not go to assassin for some reason), proficiency wises(both are good in sword, axe, bow, but anna is bad in authority and Petra is good in flying). Not sure who's combat arts are better though(dont know them), but i don't think any combat arts will make Anna better than Petra. Jeritza: You only get like 6 more chapters when you get him. Not sure if he is good or not and the mastery skill is way too late game. Prob still put him around seteth is prob.

We could but that will require a lot of effort.

Just so you know I like did this at 3am and simplified it and I haven't played all routes yet. Should've included in the rules, but I assume units can reach the min requirement. As long as you plan it, you should be able to class change to bow knight. Forgot to include the vantage+wrath combo. I feel like it is a bit too late game, but hey Edelgard is S so might do that. I pretty much put him there cause a middle ground between Gilbert and Dedue. Eh might drop, haven't played GD on maddening yet. I just put her here because I don't think there should be a 2 tier diff between her and Petra. I find her pretty useful early game because she doesn't get doubled and will double early game. Idk haven't played the final map yet. Yeah def shouldn't be in the same tier. I'll change that. I only put him here because after getting the relic, he can enemy phase archers. Other mages are gonna take 10 dmg with an addition to poison strike damage. At this point, they are close to death. Lorenz at least can potentially take on 2 or 3 with nosferato. Idk maybe this is too much theory crafting. I still think this is pretty good, but def worse. Idk it feels weird to have a healer so down there, but not sure yet. Also forgot that she gets fortify so late, might move her down. As mentioned before with Lorenz. But yeah def keeping him here. Maybe I am. You have a valid argument about that. It's just that I find myself only using her rally thus falling behind a lot and eventually dropping her after early game lol. Still her contribution early game is good enough. I value consistency more, thus why Leonie > Bernie. I never said to make her Archer. You can be a cat/paladin while using a bow.

Tier is ordered This is a general tier list not a LTC or route specific. I tried to be as non bias as possible. This consist of theory crafting/discussions from this forum. If there is something you disagree with tell me :). Also take this with a grain of salt since this is still a new game. Rating criteria: This is Classic Maddening Mode. Not new game plus. So no using renown to get class mastery skills etc I WILL consider the skills/art units can get as they class change or level their weapon skills. Ex. Getting death blow from brigand along the way to wyvern lord Availability for student is based on the house they are from. I did this because students outside your house availability can vary based on your Byleth’s skill level. This balances things out and will make it less complicated. Ex. Will not consider Hilda’s late available recruitment option in church route. However, I will consider Alois’s very late recruitment since he is recruited late in all routes. I will also consider late game recruitment since xp is more scarce Will consider the investment into the unit. Like how hard it is to reach the minimum certification requirement for a certain class. Ex. Difficulty of getting Dorothea to a dark knight since she is bad at riding and neutral in lance. Canto/mount is broken. This will affect a unit’s rating a lot. Optimal plays. No luck based strats using divine pulse or killing one enemy each turn. Crest, Hero relic, and sacred weapons. Factors not considered: Team synergy Dancer class change. Anybody can be a dancer and can be really good. Grinding and new game plus features. Can make any unit good/broken S tier: Byleth: has one of the best and early access to a hero relic with great growth rates. Great reclass option with his unique class and flier class. Female is better than male due to pegasus reclass option. Claude: a broken flyer with a broken hero relic Edelgard: Best class is actually wyvern lord. Her combat art is kinda like gale force hence making it possible to cheese maps. A+ tier: Petra: Serve as early game flier with good growths. Broken base stats late recruited. Easy access to great late game classes Ditmitri: Easily the best bow knight in the game. Great growths, bases, and weapon. Catherine: Broken the moment you get her. Makes the mid game a joke. Reclass her to a pegasus knight and later falcon knight and she will be relevant all the way through. Dedue: Almost a must early game. Great bulk and offense. Will fall behind eventually, but can be Ditmitri’s permanent adjutant. Mercedes: Best healer. Decent growths, base and great utility. Good for cross recruiting if you need an extra healer. A tier: Leonie: Good personal, growths, low investment, can become early game cav and provide stride. Great for late cross recruitment. Can easily be later promoted to bow knight despite late recruitment. Lysithea: is amazing with the hero relic and best reliable way to kill the death knight. Best offensive mage. Ingrid: Serve as early game flier with decent growths. Decent bases when recruited late. Tier below than Petra due to worse bases late recruited. Shamir: Good prepromote with decent personal. Low investment and really helps mid game. Kinda falls off later. Great bases. Seteth: Great flyer with good combat art, growths, and starting class. Late availability hurts Felix: Great early game due to skill and stats. Can become a great bow knight. Late recruiting hurts due to it being hard to premote to good master class despite amazing bases. Raphael: Dedue but worse. Great bulk and can tank a lot early game. Linhardt: Best staff/faith magic utility. Can use warp and use physics. He can use gambits to make up the lack of not having an AOE healing spell. Offensively really decent too. Marianna: Early game healer. Can get physics early. Other faith spells tbh r pretty bad. Good reason spell list. B+ tier: Hilda: Good axe user with great hero relic. Can be early game pegasus. Bad in authority doesn’t hurt as much since flier batallions are limited. But still great unit. Sylvain and Ferdinand: Lol similar design and growth rates. These two are very similar since they both will end up as great knights or wyvern lords(personally think you should do wyvern). Provide early game high mobility and could great stride users. Dorothea: Average growths, but has access to great reason spells and physics making her pretty good. Tier lower than Marianna due to bad in faith initially so can’t get physics as early. Ashe: Has class flexibility with becoming bow knight or wyvern lord. Decent in bow classes Bernie: Same level when it come to bow knight with Ashe. Easier time becoming bow knight and better personal B tier: Ignatz: Worse than Ashe and Bernie due to low flexibility. Might move him next to Ashe and Bernie maybe. Lorenz: Have potential to be an enemy phase unit. Has decent bulk. Average in offense growths. Cyril: Basically he screams needing lots of investment. Has potential to be good, but there are basically better units with less investments. Leonie is basically the same as Cyril as a bow knight (they both have 40% str and 60% spd but Leonie comes earlier) and Seteth when he joins you will have similar stats but with no investment and good personal skill. Still can become a solid bow knight or wyvern lord. Gilbert, Alois: Bulk has become more important. Will require investment for good end game class. Flayn: Great staff/faith magic utility. It is about the same as Linhardt, except she requires much more investment. Still rescue is nice to save the green units and could help move units that are behind forward. Still the investment cost makes her below Linhardt. C+ tier: Caspar: Just decent/average all across the board. He can be a good wyvern lord but will require lots of investment. War master is decent and their class mastery skill is amazing, but at that point, you will be mostly finished with the game. Bad proficiencies in bows and authority lowers unit placement. Hubert: A worse Lorenz imo. His offensive capabilities is better but Lorenz has the staff that gives him +2 range. Also Lorenz is easier to promote as a dark knight and better bulk. Still solid unit. Annette: Her spell options aren't that good. Terrible faith spells and decent/alright reason. Hero relic is blue lion locked, making her even worse in other routes in other routes. (I am still judging this from all routes, only availability is route based). Has the worst spd out of the mage students. She can provide rally utility but only good early. Manuala: Good staff/faith magic utility with warp. Unfortunately she is a big investment for her master class Gremory, Holy Knight, or Falcon Knight. Meh bases and bad availability. C tier: Hanneman: A worse Dorothea. Has similar spell list but with no physics and meteor is A+ reason, comes much later, and his spd growth is trash 20%. Still his thoron use and meteor is useful.

If not, I was thinking about making one on a website.

Ehh not sure though. Black eagles have such limited options when it comes to bulk. Everybody in the house is so frail so that's why Caspar is high. His role is much more useful and important compared to Hubert. Also his utility is outclassed by other mages like Dorothea and Linhart who can attack and heal. Heal > debut Yes I do agree I wasn't sure if people still value warp utility or not. Probably at this point going to switch Linhardt and Mercedes's placement. The problem is that her utility options aren't very good since she basically only have warp and hard to train her reason. The spells she even gets aren't even that good except bolting, which is very limited in uses and very late game. Also she has the worst magic growth out of the main magic users. To me, she's a worse Ingrid because you can recruit her whenever you want, gets physics, she gets thoron to help early game, not to mention they basically have the same growths.

Not completely ordered btw. Based on discussion this seems to be what people think and some of my own input. Petra vs Ingrid need to have at least a tier gap since Petra late recruit bases are insane and Ingrid struggles early game. Moved Caspar up since he's the only "bulky" unit in Black Eagles. Felix is order wise lower than Leonie since late recruit Leonie has better skill proficiencies. Annette up due to early game rally. Unsure how much up. Lysithea down cause bad bulk and later access to Thyrus making the move more of a problem. Gilbert, Alois up cause bulk Pls help because the A tier is way too bloated right now.

oh shoot didn't know that. lol just shows how far I even got. Hmmm do you think we should also consider their mid-late recruitment in tiering? Since units like Felix, Petra, and Leonie are still amazing when recruited late vs Lorenz pretty much sucks/easily outclassed if recruited late. It limits a unit's flexibility.

Yeah I also thought his bases are really good, but I haven't gotten to that point of the game lol so I wasn't sure. I just kept him from his hard mode position, but thanks at least I something to back him up. Do you think like B+ is good enough? Also what do you think about the healers position? I bumped all of them at least a tier higher since healing is so valuable now.

Just a base where we can talk about. I haven't even finished a route in maddening so this is basically all theory crafting so take this with a grain of salt and just tell me. This is a general tier list not a LTC or route specific. I tried to be as non bias as possible. Rating criteria: This is Classic Maddening Mode. Not new game plus. So no using renown to get class mastery skills I WILL consider the skills/art units can get as they class change or level their weapon skills. Ex. Getting death blow from brigand along the way to wyvern lord Availability for student is based on the house they are from. I did this because students outside your house availability can vary based on your Byleth’s skill level. This balances things out and will make it less complicated. Ex. Will not consider Hilda’s late available recruitment option in church route. However, I will consider Alois’s very late recruitment since he is recruited late in all routes. Will consider the investment into the unit. Like how hard it is to reach the minimum certification requirement for a certain class. Ex. Difficulty of getting Dorothea to a dark knight since she is bad at riding and neutral in lance. Canto/mount is broken. This will affect a unit’s rating a lot.(unsure about this now lol) Optimal plays. No luck based strats using divine pulse or killing one enemy each turn. Crest, Hero relic, and sacred weapons. Factors not considered: Team synergy Dancer class change. Anybody can be a dancer and can be really good. Grinding and new game plus features. Can make any unit good/broken

I am currently on BL as well, not too far, but for me she still struggles the same problem from hard, terrible spell list(no 3 range spell or faith skills), squishy, and bad spd(only 35% additionally going the dark knight/gremory path gives her no additional spd growth. She is most of the time going to get doubled and never double). Even the wyvern lord path doesn't seem that great to me too, haven't tried it, but I'm not risking it rn in maddening. She might be useful early game because of her rallies, but she is going to fall off fast.(already falling kind of back) Agreed. He is pretty much a must early game. I think easily at least A. Disagree with this since she can get her relic early to patch up lack of strength. But I do agree a unit is likely going to be left in the dust. Personally, I think in Maddening you should just later recruit a student or pre promote and bench ur worse student.

I feel like healers now should be valued more cause of poison strike and inflated stats. Feels like anybody with a physics or fortify should be at least like B+/A-. Mercedes top tier since she has both???

Hey what do you guys think about maddening? Should that affect any unit placements? I haven't gone far, but so far it feels like speed matters a lot more. Like 50% spd growth feels okay now.

she provides early game flying mobility, great spd, and get access to early legendary weapon to help her lack of str. Also has flexible class option since she is weak in nothing, which is just a bonus.

Yep this is the reason why I think analyzing the English version is important since there are direct in game quotes that reference the song. Could be, I was also thinking it could be Dimitri since as both did really care for each other and time has strained their relationship.

They both have the same spd at base and growth... This is kinda for everybody, but don't base units solely on your run. Anything could happen in your run, for example, my Caspar got spd screwed and was immediately replaced by Alois, but I still consider Alois a worse unit than Caspar due to late recruitment, which limits reclass options. It is important as well to base something from personal experience since theory crafting isn't that reliable. However, don't make arguments like X unit is better than Y unit because in my run X had a higher str, when X unit's str growth rates is worse than Y's Any unit can be RNG screwed/blessed. So please use actual facts when making your argument.

I think at the very least Annette should be higher than Hanneman imo. She still might be worse than Lorenz and Hubert. Still lunatic will be the deciding factor who goes where

The main reason why I think it’s talking about the war is the Edelgard would say “Im going to lead Fodlan to a new dawn.” Before she can completely accomplish her goals, shes gotta win the war. Idk not sure. Thank you even though its not finished. I was thinking about comparing it but haven’t gotten the time to seriously analyze the translated yet.

Gauntlets also get easily out classed by brave weapons. Gauntlets are lighter so it allows quading, but quading is such a over kill. Brave usually kills in one round

Ohhhhhhh I like this. Do you mind if I just use your explanation? I'll mention you.

Do you guys think I should award some physical units that have okay magic? Because with the forged levin and bolt axe, you can counter attack archers and snipers. Like Ingrid with a forged levin sword can be an enemy phase monster since her avoid is pretty good and mostly likely double and kill?

Huh never knew that cause I always forget about forging. That actually might change a lot of things. Still got to actually use this build to know for sure, but I think I can move her up to where Hubert and Lorenz is. Can't tell if she is better than them, but definitely not the worst anymore rip Hannenman. I'll prob post another update once lunatic comes out or some gameplay changes that could affect the placing.