Ottservia

Actually facts though if I’m being perfectly honest.

Ehhhh I’m just gonna say 3H’s story is kind of a fucking mess. You can write an essay on its story alright but it’s not gonna be a positive one

While I do agree with this point, I feel like in regards to Fates and echoes the stories of those games would not work without the split routes. In regards to echoes the main point of the story is that Celica and Alm are supposed to contrast each other as foils. Celica is Alm’s deuteragonist and the two walk separate but parallel paths and view the world from different perspectives and grow together along their respective journeys. If you cut out one path you lose half the story. in regards to Fates, it’s better to view each path as one arc in one long over arcing narrative where birthright is the first arc, Conquest the second arc, and Revelation being the third and final arc. The stories of each path do not work on their own but rather work as one piece of a greater hole because without birthright a lot of plot points in conquest and Revelation go unresolved. The same is true for conquest. And without Revelation a number of plot threads in BR and CQ have no real conclusion and on that same token a lot of the plot points in Rev don’t make sense without the context that birthright and conquest provide. The story of fates is entirely built on each path contrasting and playing off of one another. You remove one then you essentially remove one third of the entire story. It’s not handled the best mind you but it is important to keep that context in mind.

First of all Madara being taken out the way he was foreshadowed ever since his backstory. Madara’s back is his biggest weakness because he couldn’t trust anyone to watch his back ever since his family died on him. And the only two people he let that shield down for is Hashirama and Black Zetsu both of which literally stabbed him in the back for the sake of their own goals. Madara’s back is both his literal and thematic weakness. Thematically it represents his inability to be a true leader because he could never trust anyone to walk behind him. He could never stand in front. In not respecting his own humanity he falls into the same failings as Obito by being manipulated by Kaguya the one who exists outside the bounds of the hypocritical world of shinobi. Kaguya is the extremes of Madara’s ideals and philosophies personified. A god who exists above the dualistic nature of humanity. Except she can and it is for that very reason. Kaguya is what Madara wanted to become that being a god who rises above the dualistic nature of humanity. The only reason Madara couldn’t was because he was only human with human flaws. Kaguya is different for she is the actual god that Madara strove to become. She isn’t human and it is precisely for that reason that makes her such a perfect representation of the themes of this story. Kaguya isn’t human. She isn’t a shinobi because she has no human emotion. The symbolism is made more evident when you look at the kanji used to create the word “ninja” which is 忍. Read as “nin” it translates as endurance but the radicals that make it up are 刀(meaning “blade”) and 心(meaning “heart”) meaning you can interpret 忍び as “heart cut away by blade”. How this relates to Kaguya is that she has no heart because she has already cut it away and views humanity in much the same fashion. The infinite tsukuyomi being a jutsu meant to strip people of their humanity, their hearts, to better act as mindless tools. But shinobi are human not tools for Kaguya to take advantage of. Shinobi can’t cut away what matters to them for then they would have never chosen to become shinobi but shinobi can endure. And even Kaguya herself could never cut away her heart because she didn’t want to kill her two sons by expressing sorrow at the idea of having to kill Naruto and Sasuke. The reason Kaguya works as antagonist at all is because she isn’t human.

Starting to get tired of this narrative that Kaguya was a bad villain when in fact she’s the best representation of the series’ themes regarding ninjas as tools in this war torn dualistic world of hypocritical shinobi. Even more so than Madara. Kaguya represents that ideal of shinobi as tools perfectly. She takes that philosophy to a faraway extreme. Her being an alien actually helps in that because she’s not human. She’s an inhuman god that looks down on humanity as nothing more than tools or sources of power much the same way shinobi are viewed by their nations and the system at large. The infinite tsukuyomi being just that. A way to turn people into nothing more than her mindless slaves by stripping them of their humanity. It takes that idea of shinobi as tools to a faraway extreme by literally turning them into tools. Black Zetsu even brings this up in that he says the entirety of shinobi history was nothing more than a tool he used to facilitate Kaguya’s revival but he’s wrong. Naruto even tells him that once the fight ends and he kicks him into the planetary devastation. Shinobi are not tools they are human. Shinobi history is more than a tool to facilitate Kaguya’s revival. Shinobi history is defined by humans enduring their own pain and trying to find an end to this endless cycle of hate, war, and suffering. Which was something well established all the way back in the first arc of the series with Zabuza. This is how Kaguya works as an antagonist by representung the extreme of that philosophy of shinobi cutting away their hearts but much like the humans she looked down on she never could which there in lies her hypocrisy

Yeah but Silver snow was made first as confirmed by the developers themselves so if anything it reflects worse on VW because it’s a blatent copy and paste with a few added bells and whistles to account for Claude and the rest of the golden deer. CF and AM at least try to make the stories about them. Claude is hardly relevant even in his own route.

You know I’ve been thinking and there is a lot of religious symbolism in fates and I mean a lot. Most if it coming from Norse, Buddhism, Shintoism, Taoism, and Hinduism. Hell the themes of the game itself hinge on a lot of buddhist ideas like the idea of water symbolizing a false truth by only reflecting its image and not revealing the truth itself. More blunt symbolism can be seen on the Yato itself. Its hilt resembles a Vajra or Anankos’s mask resembling that of a buddha statue. https://imgur.com/gallery/rwLjLml there’s also the very clear daoist symbolism in Nohr and Hoshido being representative of Yin and Yang respectively and how Valla is the representation of Wuji which is the absence of Yin and Yang. And how Takumi’s possesion by Anankos is darkness within light while characters like Elise represent a light within darkness. Corrin representing the balance of light and dark. You also have Corrin’s Japanese name, Kamui, which is a reference to Kana Kamuy a storm dragon of ainu myth which fits into a storm god trio with Ryoma and Takumi who wield the Fujin Yumi and Rajinto. Two weapons named after shinto storm gods those being Raijin and Fujin. And going back to buddhism, Corrin’s character kind of parallels the story of the original buddha who was once a sheltered prince who upon going outside for the first time witnessed the truth of human suffering and decided to try and find an escape from it. And even all of that isn’t everything. There’s still a lot more symbolism and subtle references that I haven’t even touched on like the kitsune and I’ve only just scratched the surface of the water symbolism. There’s probably even more that I have yet to even figure out. I haven’t touched on any of the norse stuff present in Nohr either. There is a lot here to dig into.

I mean that could also be a nod to buddhism and to a lesser extent Hinduism. In how we are all trapped in an endless cycle of death and rebirth and that existence itself is suffering. Though over the course of many lifetimes and self-improvement we can free ourselves from that cycle. The cyclical nature of Medeus could be a reflection of this idea which traps the continent into an endless cycle of war and hate across generations. The Zelda series actually tackles similar ideas with how link, Ganon, and Zelda are all trapped in an endless cycle of reincarnation forced to conflict with one another. A lot of eastern stories take inspiration from buddhist philosophies and I doubt Fire Emblem is any exception

If we’re talking Fire Emblem inspirations I believe Kaga has stated he took heavy inspiration from the gundam series which makes a lot of sense considering Fire Emblem’s focus on war and it’s vicious cycle. The gundam series even has its own version of the Camus archetype. Not to mention I came name a few similarities between Marth and a couple gundam pilots. I mean Berserk exists and a lot of Japanese fantasy stories are inspired by it. Fire Emblem being no exception in that regard. You look me straight in the eye and tell me Ike wasn’t at least somewhat inspired by Guts.

I mean if there wasn’t a strong vision with this game then explain all the goddamn religious symbolism everywhere beyond “they just thought it was cool” because that’s a bad faith argument. Like Corrin’s whole character is basically the story of Buddha one of a sheltered prince who sees the world for the first time and sees it’s full of suffering and then tries to do something to find a solution to it. Like the parallel is right there. There’s also the Yato’s hilt resembling a Vajra which is a weapon used by the hindu deity Indra who is a storm god. It serves as symbol of knowledge and wisdom that cleaves through ignorance similar to how Corrin wipes away the deception of Anankos to seek the truth hidden behind the illusion of the water’s surface which loops right back around to the painting with the monkey and moon. And this isn’t even getting into all the blatent daoist and shinto symbolism like how Nohr and Hoshido are supposed to represent Yin and Yang while Valla is the absence of both in representing Wuji which is why it’s so empty and desolate. Corrin and Azura representing water completes a trio of storm gods when you take into account the Rajinto and Fujin yumi named after the shinto kami of thunder and wind respectively(Rajin and Fujin). Corrin’s Japanese name, Kamui, furthers this motif because they’re named after Kana Kamuy a storm god of Ainu mythology. And I’m only scratching the surface here. The thematic and religious symbolism goes a lot deeper than this. You just refuse to see it.

I mean neither does Aizen technically but everyone was fooled by him regardless. I bring up the bleach comparison because the two stories tackle very similar ideas regarding false truth and even rely on very similar buddhist symbolism to do so. There’s an old buddhist painting of a monkey touching an image of the moon reflecting on the water’s surface which symbolizes false truth in not being able to see the truth hidden behind the illusion. Fates has a lot of water symbolism and hell Azura even alludes to this at the end of birthright. We can argue execution all day but the themes themselves are there and very clear to see. As far as the manga’s obscurity is concerned, maybe it is to us in the west but not a Japanese audience of whom are the developers primary demographic so that argument holds no water. Honestly at this point I feel like I should make a thread discussing all the buddhist, shinto, and daoist symbolism in fates because there is a lot of it. I think where we differ mostly is that you assume Fates has a very strong vision and I think it sacrificed its vision to pursue other interests. Because it does have a strong vision, you just don’t see it out of ignorance

Yeah but they don’t have any bearing on the story positively or negatively so I don’t see why it’s that big of a deal. Yeah you can argue that they don’t need to be there and I would definitely agree but the fact that they are there doesn’t change anything about the story so I don’t see any reason to be so hung up on it. and that’s where you and I differ. I always give authors the benefit of the doubt regardless of my own personal impression of their work. It’s just basic respect honestly. Actually it’s also mentioned in the fates manga of all things where Garon reveals to Leo that the whole “conquest for resources” is essentially just a lie and an excuse for conquest for the sake of it which actually makes a lot of sense considering fates leans into themes regarding false truth and deception(it’s literally in the conquest verse of Lost in thoughts all alone). And that’s why Garon works as a villain because he’s not actually Garon just a slimy puppet masquerading as Garon to fool the continent into embarking on war. When you look at the story through the lens of those themes it makes a lot more sense. It would do you some good to look at the story from different perspectives instead of putting the carriage before the horse or however that saying goes.

I’m glad we can agree but that doesn’t give you the right to completely dismiss the nuance of an author’s work simply because you personally feel it wasn’t there. If you’re going to make criticism towards something please back it up with evidence beyond just “oh he’s a shallow cartoon villain so I can’t take him seriously”. Also yes writers can make mistakes but that doesn’t mean every mistake is of equal importance. Mistakes are inevitable nothing is perfect so be why be so harsh on the smaller more inconsequential mistakes because they’re inevitable. A couple small mistakes don’t ruin a story.

Oh I’m sorry for relating to a character that realistically reflects my own personal struggles and insecurities and taking offense to someone calling that depiction unrealistic and stupid. I’m sorry for showing the author the most basic form of respect and not dismissing their work as shallow trash that doesn’t have nuance. You do realize assuming the worst in something in any form of authoritative voice is the definition of bad faith debate right? I know I sort of did that earlier with my appeal to emotion fallacy you pointed out(even though I never suggested any malicious intent on your part just indirect implication so it’s not exactly bad faith I think. I dunno I’ll have to look it up) but being dismissive towards an author’s work and assuming incompetency without actually trying to understand it on its own merits and what it truly has to say simply because of your personal bias and subjective feelings is nothing short of arrogance if you ask me. I honestly hate tgis idea of people trying to act like they’re smarter than the author like get over yourselves.

That’s not the point I was getting at and you both know it. The point I was getting at is that calling Xander’s motivations for doing what he did(or not doing in this case) stupid or unrealistic is just insensitive because there are people who legitimately relate to him as a character and the struggles his character goes through. I am one of those people. Not as strongly as some other people mind you but I can at least understand the feeling. So what are you saying people are idiotic for not speaking out in an abusive relationship with a family member or otherwise when the years of manipulation and abuse pretty much gaslight them into thinking they can’t speak out fear of being harmed. I know the comparison is a bit extreme(except not really because Garon basically abuses his children and if you suggest otherwise you are lying to yourself) but it gets across my point. The situation is more complicated than Xander simply being an idiot for not speaking out. Emotions are complicated especially when in regards to manipulation, abuse, and difference in power dynamics. Show some empathy for once would ya?