Ottservia

Even if I did and I have, that doesn’t erase the fact that lesbian and bisexual women like boobs too. Unless of course you mean to imply their opinions don’t matter in this conversation but that would be homophobic. I can also name plenty of examples of sexual and fan servicey pieces of media made by women like Nekopara for instance. Women also make up over 40% of comiket vendors who sell pornographic doujins. The Senran Kagura fanbase is 45% women over the age of 25 despite how fanservicey the franchise is. I could keep going but I think you get my point. If you’re trying to accuse me of sexism here it’s not going to work.

I have actually plenty of women I know both online and in real life. Some straight, some bisexual, and some lesbian. And they fully agree with me. I know plenty of female artists too who like to draw sexy female characters because they’re lesbian and into that sort of thing. Like where should I find shame in finding women attractive. It’s not like I’m hurting anyone. Why should lesbian or bisexual women feel shame in finding other women attractive? And it’s not like anyone is getting hurt. It’s just a drawing of a fictional character after all

True and I can think that’s a highly arrogant view of things but that’s just me. We don’t judge people for liking male characters for just their looks so why should we do the same for people who like female characters. Seems like a bit of a double standard to me. And that’s not the only hypocritical thing here. Look all I’m saying if that if you believe there are people who only like characters like Camilla, Charlotte, or whatever because they’re hot not only is that extremely reductive and disrespectful to both the character and the people who like them but there’s also a hint of body shaming in there if you ask me. It’s just reductive and to be frank I despise it. Just because a character is sexy looking that doesn’t automatically make them any less of a compelling character. I like Severa because she’s sexy and cute. I also like her because I relate to her as a character on a deep personal level. Those two things are not mutually exclusive. And again so what if I like a character for superficial reasons? What’s wrong with that? Who gives you the authority to judge or shame others for why they like something. Unless you are legitimately hurting someone else no one should feel ashamed for liking something

Personally I don’t see what’s so wrong about people liking a character solely for being attractive. I don’t see how that’s a problem. People can like whatever they want for whatever reason they want. And I find it kind concerning that people dismiss a female character’s merits because boobs. Like a character being sexy doesn’t suddenly take away from the nuance of their character and why people relate to them. Oftentimes the fact that they have massive bozangas is just a bonus. And again what’s so wrong with liking a character solely for that reason?

If you want to I won’t stop you because I actually enjoy debating this stuff with you.

Ah yes how dare a Japanese company pander to its domestic audience with things they think they’ll like. Oh no a Japanese company creating a story about the Japanese idol industry with a heavy anime aesthetic to appeal to that demographic of people. How dare they! How dare they don’t care about my western sensibilities that finds that stuff icky and uncomfortable. It’s not like atlus and IS are Japanese companies or anything that care about their domestic market first and foremost rather than their overseas audience

That’s not exactly what I’m doing but whatever believe what you want to believe I suppose. I’m kind of done with this debate. No my issue with Alm is more so the game says he’s a commoner it’s because of that he represents the idea of anyone can be king with the right ideals not necessarily hard work because the story does make that distinction. But then it turns he was royal all along which just kind of makes the whole conflict pointless. Maybe it’s because I’ve heard those complaints a million times. Thought about them for a long time and realized how dumb they really are. Cause I used to have those exact criticisms of fates once upon a time but after really thinking about those criticisms I’ve concluded those criticisms don’t make sense for varying reasons

Honestly you don’t wanna debate this anymore that’s fine because you’re right these debates do go no where. As for why you think I don’t listen. The answer is quite simple. I’ve heard these arguments a million times before maybe not in regards to Fates specifically but other stories as well. If you genuinely think I don’t understand the arguments being presented then I’m sorry you’re wrong. When you hear the same argument repeated a million different times in slightly different ways then it starts to get a little annoying. Hearing how Lilith’s death is dumb because it’s underdeveloped is similar to criticism of how some people feel about [REDACTED]’s death in One Piece. People saying Ryoma’s death is stupid is like saying pain’s death in Naruto is stupid. Like I’ve heard these arguments before trust me just in slightly different contexts. Then there are the world building complaints and “plot contrivance” which are also really stupid. And the complaints about the game being too anime can actually be seen as somewhat xenophobic but I’ll leave that where it lies.

Yeah but that doesn’t mean that awakening was intentionally written with that allegory in mind. Also death of the author is stupid. I personally don’t believe in it. I mean sure you can kind of read that. Though I don’t think there’s enough concrete evidence within the narrative itself to really make a coherent thesis. I mean it’s like every time you open book the words suddenly change context. That’s not how that works. How one relates to a piece of art is subjective that much I will agree. But like again if you say Naruto is about hard work vs talent that just isn’t true. Like that claim is just wrong and provably so. It’s like saying SoV is hard work vs talent because it never really was about that and there’s zero evidence to really suggest that it is.

Alright I’ll bite name one genuine criticism of fates and I’ll actually try to debunk it with no strawmanning or anything. I can guarantee two things. 1. No matter what argument I make you’re gonna call it a strawman 2. the criticism you bring up is probably gonna be a highly subjective point that cannot be argued.

That still doesn’t take into account how Walhart, Validar, or Grima play into all of that. If you’re gonna say awakening is about that then you have to make all the pieces fit otherwise it’s not really an overarching theme because none of it connects. Also Gangrel being an allegory for trump is ridiculous because these games came out in japan 4 years before he came into office and 9 years before the whole invading the capital fiasco so any connection is either fitting a square peg into a round hole or just a general similarity in what awakening’s story is actually about and what it has to say about the corruption of truth and perpetuating conflict.

First of all that’s not what strawmanning means. Strawmanning is creating a strawman or a fake argument and attacking that instead of the actual point being made. I’m not doing that. Again Etruian says he stands by what he says in that Fates sidelines quality for the sake of pandering. How is that not the same as saying “fates can’t have deeper themes or ideas because it’s too busy pandering” it’s more or less the same argument and I don’t understand how you can try and tell me otherwise I mean you’re right but it’s not like the argument you actually made is that much better but I don’t have the time or energy to go into why.

I never said my argument was perfect First of all, I’m not saying your argument is of those exact words just that each argument I listed is similar. You’re just being pedantic at this point. Both Etruian and Sunwoo are exactly that though and I don’t see how they can be interpreted any other way in that fates can’t have a deeper meaning because it’s just pandering to horny people. Your argument is mostly on the grounds of Fates cannot have a deeper meaning because it’s just there to virtue signal. I mean yeah I agree. I actually think my old Fates essay is terrible and I wanna rewrite it. Okay then tell me how Awakening’s story is a commentary on the flaws of democracy and capitalism or how it criticizes the judiciary system? Or how its a story about succumbing to your own fate. Yeah but what are those plot issues? You’re not specifying. Cause from where I’m standing those plot issues don’t exist. If it’s the plot contrivance of the Valla curse. Then that’s subjective because contrivance is a suspension of disbelief thing. There are a couple if places where it does break verisimilitude but aside from one they’re all small instances that don’t really matter all that much. If it’s Leo’s teleport tome again that’s suspension of disbelief. If it’s world building then that’s a subjective thing because the story had no intention on expanding on the world in the way you wanted it too. It only goes down to aesthetics. Okay why is that a bad thing? Not every story needs to explore their setting with a huge amount of depth. Like what plot issues are you talking about? Cause I don’t see any

I mean is that not what Etruian thinks fates is. He literally says he can’t believe Fates is good because the developers are too busy pandering to the audience. Like he’s said that multiple times same with sunwoo who keeps saying that Waifusm is ruining FE stories because IS can’t have people’s precious waifus be bad people so they tack on a sympathetic backstory or something when there is literally zero evidence to support that claim and is just an assumption they’re making. I have plenty of grounds to be making statements like that. Hell even you have said this before. Something about Fates being some kind of trashy story solely meant to virtue signal. Yeah That statement has plenty of ground to stand on And that’s totally fair. Like if you don’t something then you don’t like something. Like I can say all day that awakening’s themes of defying fate and overcoming the cycle of conflict we’re all trapped in resonates with me on an emotional level but that doesn’t mean others will think the same way. That’s just how personal taste works. It’s when people start trying to justify their subjective tastes with objective reasoning that bothers me. I can say all day how boring Demon slayer is but I’m not gonna say it’s bad because the side characters are underdeveloped because they’re not underdeveloped. I just find whatever development they go through to be completely uninteresting. And that’s fine because that’s my opinion. That doesn’t mean the story is bad though. I’mma have to disagree on themes being subjective. You can only really interpret a single sentence so many ways and in regards to storytelling which is just a collection of sentences, events, and other things dependent on the medium they work much the same way. You can only really interpret a story so many different ways. To suggest awakening is not a story about overcoming fate through the power of bonds is just wrong cause it’s not exactly subtle about that fact. I mean if you couldn’t comment on it you should’ve said do to begin with otherwise I wouldn’t have to assume. I know that’s bad faith debate but still it’s not a strawman because I never attacked an argument that was never made simply using it as an example to bolster my own point. Again I’m starting to think you don’t know what a strawman is. I mean you’ve strawmanned multiple times and I can prove it.

I don’t understand how that’s a strawman. I’m starting to think you don’t understand what a strawman is. I only bring up Naruto a lot because it’s the story I’m most familiar with so it’s an easy example for me to talk about in relation to other topics. I brought up fates because as a way to jab at Etruian’s double standard. Guy can read that much out of Tobin’s character but refuses to apply that same rhetoric to Fates because apparently it’s short comings come from the devs intentionally sidelining quality for pandering when he has zero evidence to back that up which is the definition of a bad faith. like bringing up Naruto as an example to help strengthen my argument is not a stawman because I’m not using it to attack a point that was never made. It’s just an easy example I can point too as a story that people have misinterpreted for really dumb reasons. At worst it’s a false analogy but it’s not.