Ottservia

And honestly trying to compare SoV to Fates is like comparing apples to oranges. They’re different stories with completely different ideas they want to explore. I don’t complain about it in Fates or Awakening because those games don’t even attempt to explore that kind of message and even if they did they explore them in completely different ways and reach different conclusions so any what aboutism comparison in regards to them doesn’t work

He’s not letting it but that doesn’t change the fact that they actually do define him whether he agrees with it or not. his royal lineage does define him. It’s his royal lineage that makes him a good leader. It’s his royal lineage that allows him to wield the royal sword. It’s his royal lineage that makes him the chosen one, it’s his royal lineage that define the flaws in his ideals. His royal lineage defines everything about him as a character and he doesn’t fight those things. He isn’t challenged by them(or at all really) and that’s the problem. He is chained down by his lineage because he can’t fight or reject it. Alm is a prophicized chosen one. He was destined to save Valentia those are the circumstances regarding his birth and station. He doesn’t at all overcome or fight those circumstances. And again his lineage does not hinder him at all.

Yes but he is the protagonist and as such shouldn’t contradict the themes of the story and all the other examples of it the ideals being true would be fine if they were actually give significant focus but they aren’t because permadeath so those instances don’t really count for much

The misconception here is that I actually don’t believe his hard work is negated by being Royal because it isn’t but the story constantly likes to remind you otherwise. You have multiple instances of Gray and Tobin noting they are inferior to Alm because he’s “different”, that Alm is a natural born leader, Zeke is told to join Alm because of his special birthmark, he can only wield the royal sword because he is royal, he can only wield Falchion because he is royal, he is the chosen one because of his special birthmark and because he is royal, etc. do you see my problem now?

It’s terribly handled because Alm himself is direct counter example to his own argument because he was a royal that was born to lead

You know that would be great if it any of that was in the story itself but it’s not. That doesn’t answer the contradiction of Alm advocating that its not a noble’s birthright to rule but his ideals that determines such a status and that anyone with the right ideals can be a king be they noble or commoner when he himself is a counter example to his own point because his right to rule is a direct result of his birthright and we don’t a see a single commoner in a position of leadership in this story. Yep, I make the Naruto comparison because of just how similar of an argument it is.

Yes but none of those things directly hinder him at all. Him being rigelian or branded does not hinder him at all. It does not make his life worse. Again he doesn’t struggle due to any circumstance directly outside of his control in regards to his lineage. Him killing his family does relate to it yes but not in the way where it involves him overcoming problems brought upon him by his lineage. In fact it’s the opposite. He doesn’t overcome or reject his lineage he embraces it by the end because he does become king by the end of the story. Like him killing Rudolf isn’t him overcoming the circumstances of his birth. It’s a tragic moment that’s supposed to reveal the flaws in his ideals. Because Alm does indeed try to argue lineage doesn’t matter but his lineage is what defines his greatest character moments because it’s only after embracing his heritage that he goes into Duma tower with the resolve he needs. Alm almost never tries to overcome the circumstances of his birth and the only he really does try he proves the oppsing side correct. Berkut and Fernand say a commoner cannot lead and only nobility are suited to lead because that is their birthright. Which of course Alm refutes but he’s a royal himself so it just rings hollow. Also Gray and Tobin directly Alm is a natural born leader because he’s different from them which is supposed to foreshadow the later revelation. It is thematically contradictory no matter how you slice it. As @vanguard333 can attest to it isn’t like a Naruto vs Neji situation where Naruto was labeled a monster and a failure because of the nine tails inside of him so him beating Neji with the very same power that branded him an outcast shows that he’s more than just a monster. He isn’t a monster and he proves that by turning his disadvantages into advantages. When I mentioned Clair I was referring to her supports with Gray which are just awful

I mean like awakening and Fates never had all their female characters completely defined by their relationship with a man some were but even in those cases there was more to their characters unlike in SoV. Like at least awakening and fates allow their female characters to be actual characters instead of one dimensional bricks whose sole purpose is to make the men look better like Faye, Rinea, Clair, and even Celica. You could also argue fanservice but if the dark mage designs are anything to go by it’s pretty equal opportunity. Also the fact that Leo and F!Corrin won the fates popularity polls should tell you a lot about the gender ratio of the Japanese player base. Fire Emblem fans has more female fans than you might think if popularity polls are anything to go by

While that is true, the circumstances surrounding Alm’s birth and his bloodline never hinder him. He never overcomes any struggle that is the direct result of circumstances outside of his control regarding bloodline, lineage, and destiny. His status as a chosen one is literally defined by the fact that he was born with that birthmark and as a Royal of Rigel. Neither does any other character for that matter except for maybe Forscyth. His circumstances do define Who he is. If you wanna go by developer interviews they actually directly state Alm was defined by his circumstances cause they said Berkut is what Alm might have become had he been raised in Rigel. The fact that he was raised in Zofia is what made him the way he is and the story doesn’t even try to explore the nature vs nuture situation that might’ve actually made it work. They just abandon the plot point altogether once it’s revealed Alm is royal. The whole thematic through line just falls flat on its face because Alm is not hindered by the circumstances of his birth if anything it’s only a benefit to him.

Because Alm is a chosen one with a special birthmark that was stated in the prophecy that said he was meant to bring peace to Valentia. He is literally defined by the circumstances of his birth because he is a chosen one. His worth is determined by the circumstances of his birth. This isn’t like a Naruto reincarnation or toad prophecy situation because in the reincarnation instance Naruto does overcome his destiny in that he didn’t kill Sasuke when destiny foretold that he would. In regards to the toad prophecy well the toad elder admitted he was wrong and that both Naruto and Nagato are children of prophecy. Like I bring up the Naruto comparison because there’s no instance of Alm trying to overcome the circumstances of his birth like with Naruto. I’m not saying they need to be the same but if you’re going to explore this idea then having your protagonist literally defined by the circumstances of their birth is just not a good look.

Again I’m not against the message. Naruto is my favorite manga of all time I would be lying if I didn’t understand the message as well as understand the frustration in trying to prove to others that it does actually follow that theme. Trust me I get it. I’m a Naruto fan this kind of discussion is nothing new to me. That said as a Naruto fan, I know when this is actually done poorly and this is one of those instances.

Counter point Faye and Rinea who weren’t in the Original Gaiden but make the mysoginy worse than it already was, Only if you blatantly misinterpret the clear theme of your origin doesn't matter as noble vs. commoner instead. Alm is the emperor that plows; those born as lowly villagers can show themselves worthy of knighthood; sharing the same blood doesn't make Berkut as noble as Alm; outcasts like Jesse or shepherds like Kamui can become kings through their actions; princes can trade their right to rule for civil servitude; even a legacy of magic can be rejected in favor of a simple life; to quote Mewtwo "the circumstances of one’s birth are irrelevant… It is what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are.” People act like the reveal that Alm does have noble blood is a reversal of this theme, but it isn't, its a judgement on us for not accepting it. If you truly understood the theme, that Alm having noble blood instead of peasant blood wouldn't matter to you. I would buy this (I’d be a hypocrite if I didn’t because that’s the exact point made in Naruto vs Neji) if the story didn’t go out of its way to say Alm is better than everyone else because of his royal blood. Like both Gray and Tobin explicitly state that Alm is better than them because he’s “different” which foreshadows the later revelation of him being Royal. So yeah no it’s still contradictory.

It’s as I said. They would be good if 3H was a finished story because as it stands 3H is not a finished story. The amount of times the story sets up a conflict only to never deliver on it is just baffling. Crimson Flower being the most egregious example where the agarthans get the most focus with an actual place in the story. But then they’re just taken out off screen in the epilogue which is the most anti-climatic way to handle it. Cause the problem with the Agarthans is that they are so important to 3H’s narrative and world yet at the same their existence in said narrative is negligible at best. And again the story sets them up as a mysterious big bad manipulating things from the shadows as early as white clouds. But it’s never delivered on. And the ideas they set up with the agarthans are interesting ones but they never deliver on those ideas.

If you wanna talk stereotypical her official artwork can be seen as a reference to Trunks from DBZ

I mean Celica making a dumb decision is kind of the point. You’re supposed to think it’s a dumb decision so Jedah being the way he is only really serves to reinforce that point albeit in the most mysoginistic way imaginable

Even if it does come off that way it still plays into his character arc pretty well. Like the whole point of Clive’s character is that he needs to realize that his decision to make Alm the leader of the deliverance was not a mistake because the value of such a position should not be determined by the circumstances of one’s birth but rather their ideals and convictions(again something that’s completely thrown out with the whole Alm is royal thing but we can ignore that for now) and him coming off as a bit of a dick here only really serves to reinforce that point if you ask me so I still don’t see the problem with it. I cannot see how it is contradictory. I am a harsh on SoV but I like to think I’m at least fair. I’ll give credit where it is due and Jedah is handled pretty well all things considered. Clive not as much but credit where it’s due

Well your first problem was assuming that Anankos was a bad villain. Because he’s not. The same goes for Jedah btw. They each represent the themes of their respective stories well and foil the protagonist in interesting ways. How Anankos was so easily betrayed by the humans he loved and that in turn created distrust in his heart which ultimately festered into a sweltering hate. Jedah foiling Celica in trying to keep the age of gods going. Not believing in humanity’s strength and needing to rely on the gods. The agarthans would be good if you know 3H was a finished story but it’s not a finished story so you know they just end up being blegh

You see the difference here is that the story doesn’t change regardless of what happens to Delthea or Mathilda only the context and even then barely. Which is somewhat significant but ultimately doesn’t matter because the story doesn’t significantly change in either case and even if we take into account Mathilda and Delthea’s deaths being canon it would still be thematically inconsistent(cause there’s still the noble vs commoner conflict, mysoginy, Celica being more or less worthless, etc. all of which are still contradictory to the overall story). In 3H, the act of Byleth choosing one house over the other drastically changes the story and how it effects specific characters. It creates completely different winners and losers to the conflicts which makes the differences more significant. Alm’s character doesn’t change whether Mathilda/Delthea survive or not. But choosing BL over CF drastically changes the outcome of Edelgard’s character and that is something worth examining. Yeah but that doesn’t make it inherently bad writing. You’re making the assumption that just because Odin’s chuuni antics became stale for you it became stale for everyone else when that’s now how it works. In fact, it’s incredibly arrogant of you to assume such that just because you thought the joke got old that means everyone thought the joke got old. A character doesn’t need to change or develop to be a good character you know. Nor does a character need to be a “cute nice girl chuunibiyo” all the damn time in fact again if Ophelia was just “genki chuuni girl” all the time with no emotional range then she’d actually be one dimensional. Her getting angry like that helps give her depth and fleshes out her characterization. Just because you view her as a brat that doesn’t make it “objectively” bad. That’s just arrogant. I took it as Clive thinking about what the old man said at the castle as well as what Desaix said when he died both lines implying that Alm is not Mycen’s grandson in that he really was just a worthless commoner after all and that Fernand was right about Alm. Showing his classist mentality which is supposed to be proven wrong by the time they save Delthea. Like Clive is supposed to be a bit of a dick in this scene but again he’s supposed to be wrong in that mentality. The story is clearly trying to paint him as someone you should be rooting to change and stop being a classist dick. So I see no problem with it.

I disagree because I never came to that conclusion and I fail to understand how one does come to that conclusion. SoV is extremely thematically contradictory don’t get me wrong but this is one of the few instances where it actually isn’t. I just don’t see how you could interpret that from anywhere in the story because there’s nothing to suggest something like that was going to happen even if it was unintentional. I don’t see the implication at all is what I’m saying.

No it’s still a contradiction. Why? Because the reason you dislike these characters isn’t because they’re objectively poorly written like you claim. It’s because you personally do not like them. Take Ophelia for instance, you don’t like her because she’s just a “third Owain”(which is an untrue statement in it of itself because she’s a second Owain due to Owain and Odin being the same person) when there’s nothing inherently wrong with having 2 chuunibiyo characters in your story. And beyond even that it makes complete sense for Ophelia to be a chuuni like Owain because Owain is her father! Of course any kid of Owain is gonna turn out that way. It just makes sense. So disliking her for being like her father isn’t objective at all like you claim. Like how the fuck else would you write Owain’s daughter?! So her “design” isn’t flawed at all. It makes perfect sense with what her character is supposed to be. Her character isn’t a mess nor is it inconsistent. She’s fine with Forrest likely because he’s not the heir plus she’s technically his retainer. In regards to Shiro well he doesn’t act like a royal anyway. even then, a core aspect of Ophelia’s character is that she’s jealous of other people who she interprets as “chosen ones”. And in her supports with Corrin she says he isn’t one(as to why I have no clue) so it’s likely the same for Forrest and Shiro. I may have to read more of her supports in order to get a better read of her character but there’s at least some consistency there. Again it just comes across as you not liking her because she was mean to your favorite character. Which is entirely personal and subjective. And even the “objective” reasons you do dislike her aren’t objective at all and just based in false readings of her character or just innocuous details that isn’t inherently bad writing. The “objective” reasons for your dislike for Ophelia is what gives her nuance so yes you are contradicting yourself You completely missed my point. When does Clive ever imply he was gonna fire Alm after they rescue Mathilda? I don’t remember the game or Clive ever implying such at any point in the story. If you’re gonna make such a claim please show me evidence for how you reached such a nonsensical conclusion

But the game never implies that and if it does please show me evidence. Like I don’t understand where you’re getting these wild conclusions from. Well now you just contradicted yourself. You said Fire Emblem fans like nuanced characters but you yourself are a counter example to your very own point in that you directly said that nuanced characters have characteristics that make them unlikable when it is those very traits that make them nuanced as I have just pointed put with Ophelia. Your argument makes no sense at all.

What I am not understanding here though is how you can interpret how anything Clive says or does as him being willing to discard Alm because he never once even remotely implies that at least not in the malicious sense that you seem to be implying. And the same goes for how you feel about Ophelia. Like yeah she’s a bit mean in Siegbert’s supports but it adds nuance to her character because it shows what sets her off. If she acted nice in that support then she would be one dimensional. Yourcomplaints about Ophelia and Clive come off more as “Oh no they were mean to my precious boy Alm/Siegbert therefore they’re poorly written characters” and that’s not how that works. And I could go on a whole rant about Xander but I digress.

What the actual hell are you on?! When did I say Clive was a moustache twirling villain and plotting this the whole time? I never said that that first of all nor did I even imply it. Secondly, you have to be smoking some next level shit if you truly believe that’s how that scene is supposed to be interpreted. Watch it again, and actually listen to the inflections in Clives voice as he speaks. He’s clearly conflicted in the way he sounds. He sounds doubtful of himself and hesitant. And with earlier scenes in the story, he’s clearly thinking about the implications that Alm is not Mycen’s grandson cause he says the same stuff after listening to that old man at the castle. In that making Alm the leader of the deliverance was a mistake because it turns out his bloodline may not be worth anything after all. And again this mindset is supposed to be WRONG!!! As shown in at the beginning of act 4 where Clive has a speech towards Fernand where he explicitly explains the point of his character arc word for word. This story isn’t subtle like at all. Like I cannot believe I am defending SoV’s writing but here we are. I could say a lot more about how your argument doesn’t make any sense but I’m pretty busy at the moment so I’ll just leave it at that for now.

No that was the fucking intent because it plays into his disguised disdain for the lower class. Like that’s what nuance is!!! Here’s the thing about Clive the fact that he’s so willing to discard Alm after he outlives his use is precisely what makes him a nuanced character because he only wants to discard so quickly because he thinks Alm is nothing more than a worthless commoner and that appointing him leader of the deliverance when he is in fact not Mycen’s grandson was a massive mistake on his part and that Fernand was right. Alm proves him wrong though and makes him realize his position as leader of the deliverance is not based in his blood but rather ideals and ability(even though story throws all nuance this conflict had out the window but that’s besides the point). Like that’s nuance!!! The subtle little things that make up a greater whole and Clive being a “scumbag” as you put it plays into his whole character arc and gives him development. That is a nuanced character.

You say this but I can name plenty of characters/antagonists with nuance that receive nothing but hate. Edelgard actually being a prime example. And if CYL is any indication. The fanbase seems to favor nameless npc nice guys over actual characters with arcs and development(yes I am still salty about Chrom getting snubbed). Then there’s the people who say SoV’s characters are better written than Fates/awakening characters and uh yeah no. Hell, I can name plenty of characters you yourself don’t like because of the things that make them nuanced like Clive, Xander, Severa and Ophelia. Honestly this fanbase doesn’t even know the meaning of nuance.