Ottservia

I would disagree simply because the implications of the support just feel gross if you ask me. Like the whole support paints her as the unreasonable one for rejecting Gray for what I feel are understandable reasons and Gray doesn’t really do anything to correct himself to win her over. In fact it’s her that apologizes in the end because she was angry that she couldn’t have Alm(and considering the rest of the support of fucking course that’s the reason as if the story needs more reason to jack him off) and that just has some really gross implications if you ask me and I don’t like it.

Also her characterization does relate to saving the future. The only reason she has all the walls and coping mechanisms as she does is because of how dire it was back in that bleak unforgiving future. Her trust issues and survivor’s guilt are a direct result of having to survive in that war torn wasteland. Why does is Severa so critical of others? Because she doesn’t want to needlessly worry about and feel the pain of seeing them get killed. She’s been through that pain countless times and she doesn’t want to live through it again which is another reason why she’s so abrasive. She pushes people away so that when they do die on her she won’t feel that pain again. You see what I mean about how the components of character should feed into one another.

I mean it wouldn’t be bad if Faye was a more 3 dimensional character if you ask me as it stands it only really serves to hammer home how one dimensional she is self-aware or not

This is why I say it’s never a quantity issue in regards to supports and character interaction(though more of it certainly never hurts) it’s almost exclusively a quality issue. It doesn’t matter how many supports a character has if they’re all garbage then what does that say about the character? I only really need to point to Kellam as an example of that.

I mean that’s fair but like Falchion just said none of those aspects are ever expanded on anywhere in the game. A support where she helps Clair gather fire wood or medicinal plants would’ve done wonders for fleshing her out a lot more

I mean of all the supports I’ve read in awakening I have to find one as shallow as that personally. There are shallow supports in awakening but not nearly that shallow. I feel like this arguing against a point I never made. That’s not really a problem of the quantity of supports as it is just a problem with the support system in general. Cause a character can have only two supports and still have this be a problem so it has nothing to do with quantity. Also I never said base conversations were a bad thing. I’m actually in agreement that they should come back because of how useful they can be when combined with supports. Because she’s fighting to prove herself and save her world. I think that’s pretty obvious. Also if you play that game how many lines of dialogue does Silque have in the main story that answer this question? Exactly now you get my point. I feel like this arguing against a point I never made. Here’s the thing I can only say all that shit about Severa BECAUSE it is there. If you cut all that shit out then you rob her character of the nuance that provided. It’s not fluff if it adds something to the character. also another question. How does Silque have anywhere near that amount of nuance and characterization? Silque only has the one thing going for her in that she’s devoted to Mila because she was abandoned by her mother and taken by the church. THAT IS IT! Severa has an inferiority complex, trust issues, an unhealthy work ethic, abandonment issues, survivor’s guilt, anxiety, etc. she’s abrasive but also has a soft side that she only shows to the people she truly cares about and trusts. And I am only summarizing here That’s what nuance is. Silque doesn’t have that so don’t tell me her character just “cuts out the fluff” because there’s no fluff to cut out. What is even your point here? If you can write an analysis on Silque’s character that is as deep and intricate as mine on Severa then I will concede the point. Because Severa isn’t the exception. I could do the same for Inigo, Lucina, Cordelia, Virion, Tharja, and many many more. If I tried to the same for most SoV characters it would only be a paragraph at most. I tried to analyze Silque’s character with the same lens I used to analyze Severa’s character and the difference in the amount I could write for each of them is staggering and that’s my point. If you wanna better comparison then GrayxClair and InigoxSevera are similar enough. InigoxSevera is just the better support though

Btw in the original jp version it was bento boxes not pies which is a pretty prevalent trope in a lot of romance anime. It’s really cute honestly.

Oh yeah because Kliff telling Tobin to fuck off for 3 supports in a row is totally a nuanced and insightful support conversation compared to Severa’s father support where she learns that she doesn’t need to be perfect in order for people to care about her for who she is rather than who she isn’t . Yeah totally Kliff and Tobin’s supports are really 10/10 writing right there.

Name one instance where more character interaction ended up being a bad thing in the end because as I see it more interaction is always a good thing. Why? Because more interaction means more opportunities to flesh out the character. Personally, I would rather dig through dozens of repetitive supports to find that one good one rather than have only two that are terrible. Because the other supports don’t take away that one gem is they only add to it. It’s like world building. More of it is never a bad thing. More opportunities for characterization is always a good thing because more characterization means more depth is added to the character it is as simple as that. Of the characters I listed, I would argue Faye is the best written actually because she actually has a personality trait unlike the others I listed. Sure it literally just amounts to “I love Alm” but it’s something. Also okay I’ll play that game. Let’s look at Silque’s base conversations as an example. Reading all three of these convos tell me what do we learn anout Silque? What does this tell us about Silque’s character and how those things connect with previously established characterization. All we know about Silque by this point in the game is that she’s a devoted follower of Mila. In these base convos we learn that her mother was once a member of the duma faithful. She crossed into Zofia and abandoned Silque at a priory. She was taken in by the church and devotes herself to Mila to repay the kindness the church showed her. These convos give us context as to why Silque is the way she is and that’s all well and good. It gives her some depth at least more than her one support conversation does which was none. Taking those base conversations, her supports, memory prisms, and story dialogue into account what can you say about Silque’s character? She was an orphan girl taken in by the church of Mila and devotes herself to the earth mother as a token of gratitude. That is it. That’s all her character is. Now let’s look at Severa. Taking into account all of Severa’s supports, base convos, story-dialogue, etc. in awakening alone what can I say about Severa’s character? Well pretty much all of this https://forums.serenesforest.net/index.php?/topic/88105-the-girl-who-chooses-to-roll-again-one-more-time-a-severa-character-analysis/&tab=comments#comment-5466639 and I didn’t even cover all of her supports in that little essay just the important ones and that’s not even getting into all the dlc conversations which only add to what’s already there. Do you see my point? And Severa isn’t an exception either. A lot of awakening characters are like this. The same goes for Silque. She’s not the exception. Almost every SoV character is like that. Yeah I have a bias against SoV but that’s not for lack of trying. Like I said, I’ve played through SoV two and a half times and every single time I go in wanting to be proven wrong about it but every time I wind up with the same conclusions as I did before.

That’s an unfair comparison though because Leif is a main lord and as such has screen time and character development over the course of the main story so the comparison doesn’t work. People like Leif because they can relate to his struggles that he experiences through his journey which make him a nuanced. He’s the protagonist of a well written story if he wasn’t nuanced then I would be surprised. Again this comparison doesn’t mean anything. It’s a moot argument so we’re moving on. No it isn’t because arguing whether or not a character being gimmicky at all is indicative of poor writing is a stupid argument in it of itself. Cause all a character “gimmick” really is just a overly pronounced personality trait like Inigo’s flirting for instance. Whether a character has a “gimmick” should not indicate if they’re inherently poorly written. I feel like that’s a close minded way to look at it. Here’s the thing. A character is either one dimensional or not. A character having a “gimmick” does not inherently make the character one dimensional. What makes a character one dimensional is if the character doesn’t have anything to them beyond their surface level personality traits or “gimmick”. In the case of most awakening and Fates characters that is not the case where as that is the case with a lot of SoV characters(See Faye, Silque, Jesse, Gray, Kliff, etc.). In that sense, these characters are more one dimensional than Fates and Awakening characters because I can tell you more about who Inigo is as a person than I could tell you about Gray. Cause y’know Inigo actually has layers to his character and different components that all feed into each other that give him depth and complexity. Gray does not have any that. My argument isn’t “more supports/dialogue is always good”(even though more character interaction is never a bad thing mind you) but rather “more nuanced characterization is always good” because characterization is arguably the most important aspect of character writing. It’s never the quantity of dialogue, supports, or whatever. It’s always the quality of those things which I feel SoV sorely lacks in.

That’s an entirely different argument altogether from my main point. Basically what you’re arguing here is that yeah their characterization is really weak but that’s okay because that’s kind of the point. It leans more into that old school rpg mentality of the player creating their own narratives out of it through the game’s systems and the player’s own anecdotal experiences which is completely fair(it’s the same reason I like pokemon so much and do Nuzlockes a lot) but it doesn’t actually counter my argument. In fact it supports my argument if anything. Cause my main argument was never “I don’t understand how people could like these characters” but rather “how can people say these characters are better written than the characters in fates or awakening?” Cause a person can like these characters all they want for whatever reason they want. That’s just how personal preference works. Don’t get me wrong I totally get the appeal of this approach to character writing in rpgs especially older ones. The characters have basic personalities and are purposely not as fleshed out(even though developer interviews would suggest otherwise) as to allow the player to project whatever they want onto them based on their anecdotal experiences. it’s when I see people say these characters are better written than the ones in Fates and awakening I have to roll my eyes because that’s not true and I have already proven as such. They don’t have that level of depth and characterization that a character like Severa has because they’re not designed to(well again developer interviews completely suggest otherwise at least in regards to SoV that was totally the intent with the original gaiden though). It’s not the fact that people like these characters that bother me. It’s the double standard that does. Because people will prattle on and on about how awakening and Fates are one dimensional gimmicks when SoV are much worse in that regard. Again, I despise the double standard.

You missed my point because I agree with everything you said here. My point was more so that if you judge a character’s actions based on what you personally agree or disagree with then I feel like that misses the point. Whether or not you agree or disagree with a character is more or less irrelevant to analysis/criticism. Now whether or not you can understand the character is the important part.

You see this is why I prefer not to judge/analyze characters by real world moral standards. I find it to be extremely biased and often times misses the point of the work or character in question. It just leads to arguments that don’t really go anywhere. To me it doesn’t matter what my personal moral standing is on what the character says or does. I’m more concerned with what the story itself has to say about those things. I can’t talk much about Miciah because I haven’t played RD but those are just my two cents after skimming through the thread.

This is the last I’ll say on the matter cause I don’t wanna derail the thread too much. If anyone wants to continue this in PM I am willing. I think you miss my point. In that when you really look at Gray’s character what’s really there? We know he was Alm’s childhood friend, he has a couple sisters, has a thing for Clair, and has some self-reflecting on the people he’s killed. That’s all cool but generally speaking none of that is relevant to his characterization. Okay maybe that’s the wrong way to phrase it. Like you have these components of his character but how do they connect? How are they shown to the audience? They aren’t really. A nuanced character is one where each individual component feeds into one another. As an example with Severa, we know she has a massive inferiority complex which is why she acts so abrasive. She’s also extremely insecure as shown in her Inigo support where he compliments and she immediately accuses him of making fun of her. This is because she is so used to people looking down on her she just assumes everyone is looking down on her by default even when they’re not. Subtle bits of characterization like that can mean so much in regards to giving the audience insight into a character’s psyche. That’s what you call good characterization. The problem with Gray is that he doesn’t have moments like that at least as far as I can tell. I’ve played through SoV two and a half times and I have yet to see that level of characterization at least with any of the ram villagers. When a character dispenses their backstory or whatever that should click in my brain and everything should connect. I don’t get that with SoV characters because their characterization is so weak. Yes, Tobin has an inferiority complex but how does that inferiority complex effect his personality, speech pattern, mannerisms, how he interacts with others, etc.? As far as I can tell it doesn’t and that’s the problem. Like Forscyth we know he wants to be a knight and takes it very seriously which is why he’s always getting on Python’s case for being lazy. That’s good characterization. Most other SoV characters don’t have that but I can name plenty of awakening and fates characters that do across multiple supports(like Peri being a really good cook for instance or Lucina’s terrible fashion sense). This is what I mean when I say the characterization is bad because if the game didn’t tell me this shit about these characters I would’ve never guessed because it’s shown so poorly. You can tell me this shit about Gray being guilty all day but if doesn’t connect with the rest of his character in a meaningful way then it’s ultimately pointless and that’s the biggest problem here.

I mean have yet to hear you give an argument as to what makes Tobin a more nuanced character than Severa so from my perspective it looks to me that’s what you’re doing not me. I could write a decently sized essay on the nuances of Severa’s character(and in fact I have). If I were to do the same for Tobin, it would probably be a paragraph at most. I’m mostly against comparing characters but my point here isn’t that Tobin should be more like Severa just that Severa is a more nuanced character. I mean if you wanna enlighten me on this supposed depth of Gray’s character go ahead but from my 3 play throughs of this game I have yet to see anything to even remotely suggest that his character is anything more than “Alm’s village friend that likes Clair”.

As far as base conversations go I can count on one hand the amount of base conversations I’ve read in that game that were worth a damn. Tobin’s is okay but the information found in it doesn’t really amount to much because yeah he has inferiority complex but my problem with it is that doesn’t add anything to his characterization. Yeah we have a couple battle quotes here or there that play into it but neither of his supports dig into it at all nor is it something the story itself focuses on despite the amount of screen time he has. You compare him to a character with an inferiority complex like Severa and the difference in how much nuance each one has is vast. So no I don’t think SoV’s characters are that much better than awakening or fates. To be fair, you are comparing one of the more one dimensional Fates characters to one of the more nuanced ones in SoV. Not every character in SoV is a miss mind you Forscyth being one of them. The same goes for fates and awakening. For a cast that large you’re gonna have a few one dimensional characters here or there. Some characters are just gonna be more interesting than others and that’s fine. If you want a better comparison to Forscyth then it’s better to compare him to characters like Sophie, Cynthia, or Arthur who are all more similar to him and much more nuanced than Setsuna(at least to my knowledge I haven’t really read Setsuna’s supports). Might wanna revaluate your definition of subtext. It’s kind of hard to imply something about a character if there’s hardly anything to imply. Characterization is a very important part of character writing and I find that SoV characters have very little of it. Let me ask the question again. what can you tell me about Gray, Kliff, or Tobin beyond just their surface level personality traits? Tobin has an inferiority complex. Other than that nothing. Kliff? I got nothing. Gray? He likes Clair I suppose but other than that I couldn’t tell you anything more about his personality if you paid me. If you wanna talk subtext then fine but know that characterization and subtext are more or less the same thing in this situation. Forscyth and Python I won’t deny have good characterization. They’re a couple of the few SoV characters that do alongside Boey, Lukas, Clive, and Saber. Also if you wanna talk subtext Setsuna is fully aware of how air headed she is but the implication as to why she’s like that is because she knows people will help her out of whatever mess she’s gotten herself in so she doesn’t feel any need to worry about anything. At least that’s what I got from the few supports I have read of hers. Or hell if you wanna talk about subtext then look at Morgan. Now that’s a very interesting character in regards to the things solely implied about them.

Pretty much took the words right out of my mouth. My main issue with SoV supports is that they lack any real sense of characterization. Kliff and Tobin’s support is literally just Tobin saying hi and Kliff telling him to fuck off. That is the entire support. There’s no interesting character insight, conflict, comedy, nothing really. And that’s not even getting into how mysoginistic GrayxClair is because it basically amounts to Clair settling for Gray because she can’t have Alm without Gray having to do anything to win her heart otherwise. Say what you will about Cordelia but at least with her S-supports she settles for them because they’ve already proven that they will love and care for her more than Chrom will. It’s just kind of a gross implication that I am not okay with in a game already filled with mysoginistic tendencies.

To be fair Tharja is probably one of the most inconsistent characters in awakening and this is coming from someone who’s read all of her supports. The Robin obsession is probably the worst part of her character all things considered. Again I consider her more of a tsundere because a lot of her supports revolve around her needing to learn that she should trust the people in this army and not be so abrasive and stand-off ish because she’s actually pretty sweet for example in her virion supports has her making him do various tasks that wind up helping people like building a bridge for kids to cross or cooking food for the army. Like I said, inconsistent. And so am I but I can respect anyone who has the courage to create anything and put it out there for the world to see. It takes a lot of work and courage in order to do that and anyone who can has my respect. Especially considering the environment of Japan’s workaholic culture.

Oh look who missed the entire point of Tharja’s character but you know what you do you. Nothing I say is gonna change your mind. All I’m gonna say is that there’s a reason why I feel like it’s more appropriate to catagorize Tharja as a tsundere rather than yandere. Also would it kill you to show a little respect to creators regardless of your personal feelings towards their work? After a certain author’s recent passing my tolerance for this shit has dwindled immensely. Gray and Clair is essentially just SeveraxInigo but worse in every way and you won’t change my mind on that.

Here’s the the problem with SoV characters. What can you tell me about Gray, Tobin, or Kliff besides their surface level personality traits? Oh right nothing because they’re so one dimensional and boring that there is nothing you can say about them. Where as with Severa or Inigo, I could tell you loads of things about them just by reading only a couple supports. I never really understood this idea that SoV characters are better written than the ones in awakening in fates cause they really aren’t but I suppose that’s a discussion for another time.

Hey it isn’t my fault SoV supports and characters are more flat and one dimensional than Cordelia’s chest. It’s not the quantity of supports. It’s always been a matter of quality.

Ngl I actually kind of like that moment because it’s the result of an already established character flaw Celica in that she’s too nice and can’t put her faith in her friends’ strength in order to find another solution to the problem. It makes sense for her character and the arc they want her to undergo. Now if you wanna know the actual problems with Celica’s route then we turn to a certain green haired “farm boy” oh and Conrad. I mean we can poke holes in Rudolph’s plan all day but honestly that feels nitpicky to me and I say this as one of SoV’s more vocal detractors. There are just bigger more important issues with SoV’s narrative than Rudolf’s plan not making sense if you ask like the entirety of Berkut’s role as an antagonist for instance.

Yeah but that’s what Benice is saying. His whole argument essentially boils down to “Supports are bad and should be removed because they don’t allow for character arcs and that these systems from other games are better and should be used instead” at as far as I understand things(If I am incorrect in that assumption I apologize). In that regard it’s a flawed argument because 1. Supports do allow for character arcs and we can name plenty of examples of such. 2. The changes he is proposing aren’t that different from how supports already work so using them to replace supports is kind of redundant because they’re already more or less the same thing.

My question is more so why target supports with this rant? When the paralogue system is right there which if improved upon could give Benice exactly what he wants. Like imagine a system where if you get a certain support rank with a character or whatever which then unlocks a paralogue that continues the conflict of that particular support chain. This then can lead into a chain of maybe 2 or 3 paralogues with various unlock criteria that allow for the character to have the arc that Benice wants so bad.

I mean that part of the argument does have some merit to it and to an extent I do agree with it. But saying “Supports are bad because they don’t allow for character arcs” is just straight up not true because they do. I can name several supports from awakening alone that develop a character arc(Severa’s father support, LucinaxInigo, lissaxMaribelle, RobinxCordelia, Pretty much every Tharja support, and many many more) and even then a character doesn’t necessarily need an “arc” to be well written. Character development encompasses more than just the character changing over time. Learning more about their backstory and how they became the person they are today helps with that as well. Also a character can work just fine off of characterization alone and characterization I would argue is more important than a character arc. And the way supports are now handle characterization just fine.