Hardric62

Euh, I'd say the initial plan was 'tackle the biggest monster/opponent', aka the Church. The only reason she entertains the idea of going at it by crushing Mole Men is because of having Byleth on her side influenced her, and talk with Hubert or not, she still had to bow to strategic imperatives, aka keep the Mole Men for later. She was very much going for the bigger threat on the strategical plan in her initial plans, aka routes other than Crimson Flower.

You know, nothing here is incompatible with the idea that the Mole Men have taken control of the Empire, and that her rise to power is met with their approval. She could have chosen tattling to the Church, to other allies... Just because they have the sort of stranglehold which making chosing them the 'better' alternative doesn't invalidate free wil, absolve her of all responsibilityl, grey stances and the likes.

Okay, leaving aside the bolded part, which is so delusional it hurts something fierce... That could be why Solon attacked Remire, and Monikronya glued herself to Edelgard. The Mole Men certainly realized Edelgard had no reason to be loyal to them, so they monitored her closely, because you don't just leave your big 'superweaon' lying around unsupervised after creating it, precisely to make sure she didn't get fancy ideas... While making sure she was associated to enough messes (Remire, Monikronya...) that this possibility was shattered

While I agree with the contestation of Rhea's iron grip on the Church and through it Fodlan, and will agree that Edelgard methods are bloody to say the least, I also find this answer... Both a bit naive and off-topic. Off-topic because 'totalitarisms' are very much a XXth century thing, use of the term for realities of the medieval period is a very reducing thing, trying to force XXth century beliefs for times where they just don't have the same relevance, if at all. People speaking of dictature for these times... tyranny can definitely exist in these times, but the sort of dictatures people imagine when using these words just don't exist in these times, so it makes the use of these terms seem useless to me here. And naive because... I am sorry for your teacher, because it would be nice if the world ran on that logic, reality is a vicious thing, so vicious in fact who makes the Lannisters Freys and Boltons of Song of Ice and Fire looks like freaking choir boys. To quote some names, look closely at Peter the Great of Russia, Augustus during the civil war, or Khosrau I, one of the last, if not the last, great shah of the Sassanid Empire before the Muslim conquest. Three great men, who all did right things for their countries for their time... And Almighty Gygax, these things came with truckloads of body. Because History does care more for success or failure than good or evil at the end, and success buries many evils. It should not be that way in a fair world, but... Counter-couping the Seven to take back the Empire, although it is under the Mole Men's ""alliance"" (let's be clear, these ducktards are the ones with the pants in the relationship, from Day One), and these assassinations attempts? Nasty stuff, but flowers and sunshine compared to the sort of things History has in store, and it will remain a mystery to know how much of that was Mole Men's orders, or personal maneuvering, even if either explanations burn the same bridges. And wars have been launched for far less worthy reasons than the ones she uses here. And to be frank, I think the Mole Men's diktats here are as much to balem than any desire to unify Fodlan. She had to offer something to Bergliez and Hevring for them to switch sides, and she couldn't offer them more within Adrestia's limits than what Aegir had already given to them. The cards here are ugly, unsavory... But sometimes they are the only ones you have, and even inaction here means leaving the misery to fester more (And frankly, even if you remove Edelgard and her actions, I don't give many years to Fodlan before internal collapse and wars ruin the continent). Heck, even Rhea, for all the bodies shaping a continent through use of a monotheistic religion imply (heresies, control of knowledge, while the Mole Men are rocking the boat in the shadows), got (seemingly) six centuries of a peace to show for it, which does represent an exceptional length of time by most human standards (look in History for places wihch knew six centuries of general peace in histiry on the scale of a continent. They are not that many). Her failure lies more in being unable to adapt to changing times, unable to spot the Mole Men and their work, and unable to provide another solution to the problems other than 'Mommy Will Fix Everything' (despite excellent earlier attempts like the Officiers Academy, whose only real flaw was coming too late), and her unwillingness to cede this power to another than Mommy. Short form, I hate neither of them. I think Rhea's rule has been good for a long time, but has now failed and is overdue for a change in the face of her own near-total unwillingness to change personaly, and think that what Edelgard wants to build deserves to exist, or at least to be given a shot. (Dunno why, but something about Three Houses makes me wants to compare it to Real Life History far more than most of the other fantasy games I played. Definitely counting that one in the 'pro' part of the game's review though.)

Maybe rather the reverse? If I remember the Crest Items right, Cichol is the one associated with Earth, so Tiger could make more sense (okay, White Tiger actually goes with Metal)... And further reading associates the White TIger with West, so possible case for that. Speaking of China, if a comparation with the Three Kingdoms would have to be made... Which one is which one? Adrestia looks like Wei by virtue of being the one born of the remnants of the old empire (the Cao clan was the one with the last Han's custody), and Edelgard's willingness for ruthlessness matches Cao Cao's ('I would prefer to betray the world than have the world betray me'). Adrestia is also a bit too big and powerful to be the equivalent of Shu, despite the fact its king, Liu Bei, was claiming to be a Han descendant himself. Any thought on the other two kingdoms? I do think Shu fits Leicester in some way (a leader who is also an... adventurer of dubious origins, and I say that while being a big Liu Bei and Shu fan), leaving Wu with Faerghus.

Getting this thread out because I just thought about something recently, especially after the interviews comparing Fodlan to China during the Three Kingdoms period. So far, one of the main political entities Adrestia has been compared to was the Holy Roman Empire, with the names used inside the country, the relationship emperor/archbishop, the high nobility families... But I think it can be compared to another empire. Regarding Edelgard's theoreticaly meritocratic society, most people don't really see equivalents in the real world. But there is one empire who professed recruitment of elites by merit, using exams to sort out the ones deserving posts in the administrations. This system was created in the VIIth century (Sui and Tang dynasty), with inspiration dating back to earlier dynasties of that empire ruling from the IInd century BC to the 2nd century AD (Han dynasty). This system knew its highs and lows, but endured through several imperial dynasties, inspired neighbouring countries to imitate that system (Vietnam, Korea)... sometimes after military occupation by said empire, for more than a millenium: the imperial exams and mandarins system of Imperial China. And it goes further. Ministers as hereditary families? A thing when the system was breaking down and scholars formed their own clans and cliques. Puppet emperor cotrolled by its court? When it was not barbarian invasions or ambitious warlords (and, welp, if you interpret Fodlan as China, its fracturing echoes that too), that was one of China's big pains in the butt. Heck, Fodlan's isolationism is also fairly consistant with most Chinese empires' attitude towards outsiders, down to 'barbarian' invasions, and the world technology moving up around them. Welp, I mean, since Fire Emblem looks like a western 'verse, you compare it to Europe, and well the shoe can fit, with Adrestia as the HRE or Byzantine Empire, Leicester as Renaissance Italy as a mess of multiple political identities, and a touch of Commonwealth of Poland-Lithuania both as an example of a country controlled by its nobility with a nominal at best king, and one wasting away without a central authority, or Faerghus as France for the parallels to chivalry, 'eldest daughter of the Church', the assemblies instuted by Dimitri in the AM eilogues which could be tied to the first medieval communes, or the names of the countries, towns, characters... Just how many possible references to Asian situations, or heck, anywhere else in the world, if that's to be found, get missed by people playing the games?

And someone somewhere had to have that Crest of Macuil for it to be known and allow House Nuvelle to hide their Crest of Noa. And this is why his children have been carved up like raw burger by the Mole Men for Crest Implantation. Well, the Mole Men wanted Nemesis 2.0, Aegir and his complices wanted an emperor with a Major Crest. And there is no telling if other members of the families not bolded above have a few members with Crests or not. And honestly, odds are the Crests are way more scattered amongst the noble families than it looks like. Intermarriage had to happen several times in 1100 years, plenty of times for other bloodlines to appear (note that House Riegan's current incarnation is seen as a cadet branch of Blaydidd). The Relics are the hard limited toys here, not the Crests.

I dunno if Count Bergliez's position after the war (or any of the Seven for that matter) would be that nice and cosy. I mean, he is kept from the big center of power Garreg Mach represented during the war, and while the assignement inside the Alliance is prestigious, and could be an occasion to build up power, it is also an assignement keeping him busy (henceforth not plotting), and far away from the Empire and Garreg Mach (centers of power). It smells like the guy might being set up for a slow defanging here, until Capsar takes up his place as Minister of Military Affairs (which he can only do if Daddy is ousted from office). After all, Bergliez remains an ex-Seven, and represents a last holdout of old nobility by existing and keeping his office. And while the guy looked nice enough to surrender in other routes, Constance's apparition on the board and her backstory tells that he left an ex-Ionius Loyalists house and their subject to die to have them out of the way of the Seven (commander of the Empire armies after all, the only way that plan to erase House Nuvelle could be implemented is with his assent). Makes me wonder about the Sevens' actual wherabouts after the war.

. . . Politics, and life in general, doesn't exactly always work on the 'If I can get away with X thing, I can get away with lesser thing x'. Shocking, I know. But you seem to (willfully) forget that war isn't just a defiance: it's also the biggest way of answering these defiances. Or you're telling me that because I can, I dunno, kill a cop and flee while all the cops near to me (namely, the one I kiilled) cannot stop me, I can get away with speeding. Except it doesn't work like that. And when I do both, I don't 'get away' with speeding, it only fades into the background because guess what, I killed a cop. Not that lesser offenses won't find their use against me (see Al Capone). When Edelgard launches her offensive a measly two weeks after the war declaration, heck by doing that war declaration, she pretty much sidesteps the whole diplomatic process which would have led to that point, she doesn't just magically get away with it, she just have thrown a far bigger rock in the pound, so no one is in position of going after her for throwing the smaller rocks before. War would have been a possible sanction, but I'm sure Rhea would have prefffered in that case that it was one where she could condamn Edelgard as an heretic turning her back on the Goddess in front of the wider population of Adrestia, getting Imperial nobles to side with her for more or less interested motives, and maybe even foreign powers answering the defiance to Fodlan's supreme moral authority. What Edelgard did here was throwing first punch in such a violent and quick ways that it deprived the Church of any leveraging on Imperial society before the assault on Not!Vatican, striking before anything could be done against her. After that, either Rhea is out and the Church's political's authority and leverage is pretty much shattered, or Rhea going more and more in what I will dub 'Seiros Mode' will sap what influence she has left all by herself, as evidenced by the regular trickle of Church and Knights deserters you see in CF. And you'll notice that even in this scenario, mentions are made of civilian unrest in face of the war with the Church within Adrestia. Yes, it gets under control after the five years, but it means the influence and the potential of using it was there. Edelgard just stroke before it could be leveraged. I was actually thinking about increased diplomatic pressures, in whatever shape the Church could think about. You were the one who made the jump from 'Leveraging guilt and a big favor' to 'Mugging' without thinking of any possible intermediary step. Talk about a lack of imagination.

Okay, one more time, slowly: She flaunted these rules right before launching her war. That means the consequences of this defiance of traditions and the big morale influence of the continent kinda faded away in the background because of the outright war against said big morale influence. I hope there are not too many big words for you here. No, it makes it clear that Constance was the easier option, and was only that easy thanks to the Mole Men. Sylvain's support with Byleth and this paralogues already show that the Church considers the Relics as under its juridiction to some degree. And Sylvain said it was a close thing for the Gautiers, despite being able to wield the Lance of Ruin. An Aubin's Relic Gerth couldn't use? He wouldn't have had this excuse, so I guess harsher and harsher pressure would have come if the 'carrot option' failed. Also, if the Church was such a powerless useless thing, why would this Relic be such a valuable bargaining tool exactly? Why waste on an organization as irrelevant as the one you describe?

The very fact the archbishop is so snubbed is a dead giveaway. Drastic breaks of traditions old enough to be stronger than laws, said breaking being barely covered by technicalities (if it even is), rarely foreshadow nice times.

With all the diplomacy I can muster, you grasp on history is... Okay, I can't be nice, you just fail history, and politics, forever. First for the thing which staerted it all, Southern Church isn't a different religion, it's a political branch, aka an archbishop managing church in that place for the pope. When they are ousted, no difference in creed pops up, no actual, in-depth change happen in the way faith is carried out by people: to continue my analogy, all of them are still Catholics, they still answer to the pope. France secured the right to name the bishops in the kingdom for the royal power in the 13-14th centuries, and I dare you to say it was the end of any sway the Catholic Church wold have within the country. This is the sort of conflict the Empire has with the Church of Seiros. But Rhea/the pope is still there, there is still a relationship. They're still all following the same creed. The morale and social influence religion holds within a country, especially a medieval one, is still there. No new religion has been created here like in your Henry VIII example. And from that point: A) Stop all individual faithfuls of doing such a thing. In the equivalent of the medieval times. Forget the Mole Men, yours is a far bloodier and nastier war. B) Refuse to collaborate with Fodlan's premier academy, fonded in the name of assuring security of the whole continent, throwing a massive diplomatic crisis along the way. Oh, and refusing a 'request' of the continent's religion. Are you even thinking about the consequences of the actions you 'stop'? C) Knights can go wherever they want in Foldan as long as it is defined as Church business or that they are asked for. Projection of military strength like that is a massive Big Deal, you don't just say 'No' without consequences. D) Okay, now I know you are trolling. Pope 'invited' to a coronation? That's usually called a sacre, it is the sort of things which show people the sovereign has this thing called the 'divine right to rule'. In Europe? Only one ducker had the pope doing that for him. The Holy Roman Emperor. Again, Big Deal. As in, Casus Belli Big Deal, because ditching the pope/archbishop is an as good as any way to demonstrate, and a pretty spectacular one actually, that you deny their authority. Which usually one of the last steps before this nasty thing called war. Remind me when Edelgard ditches this sacre thing already in the chronology?

I think you're touching at one of the very reasons Rhea don't want autopsies, beyond the justification given in the text of 'plebs infringing on Faith Magic and the Church's monopoly on healing' with the mention of Hanneman: true nature of Crests and Relics. I don't think everyone was nice enough to self-censure themselves once they learnt too much like that monk analyzing Relics in the Shadow Library, so cutting off research on that front seems logic (and attracting erudites at Garreg Mach by being the big learning center allows to know how close they are of uncomfortable truth... preferably when they can be convinced/coerced into silence, defintively or not, and for instance join the crews making these Golems the Church use). Identifying the Crests like they do is no biggie, but digging deeper... And yes Hanneman create his tools in his endings... After the war which, no matter the outcome broke the Church as it was, and Rhea's style for ruling. And the desecration angle is brought up here too amongst the list of reasons for the interdiction. I was actually refering to the civilian population in general here, not just the nobles Edelgard already purged in her counter-coup. Elites will follow power, yes, but faith can still push pretty massive movements amongst masses: a later example than medieval times, but French Revolution, a time when the Catholic Church had lost the bigger part of its political power and the revolutionary governments were making big moves against said Church? Still sparked an intense guerilla who lasted for years, despite how bloody and savage repression was. At a time when faith held a greater place in the common folk's heart (and in RL, Church could remove HRE emperors if it pushed hard enough), and when it could be used as a rallying flag for resistants to Edelgard's counter-coup really easy... There is a pregnant lack of such reaction described in the game, beyond mentions of unrest having quited down in Crimson Flower. Yes, probably that. Still working for a monopole on knowledge heavily favoring them here though. Politics 101, but still not good news for society at large.

Well, before that list, you had Claude's supports with Lorenz and Leonie, both of them started with his reflexions on agricultures. Both times, he is all about fertility not beign the result of the Goddess' blessings, and both of the times he get a 'Weird idea, dude' answer from Leonie and Lorenz. And both of them add 'Careful dude, I'll keep mum about it, but don't let the Church hear you say things like that'. Not exactly a good sign. And several of the tech banned in that book fall in line with stuff that Real Life Church banned/fought. Telescopes? Copernic himself could have avoided persecutions, but his ideas didn't, ask Gallileo. Printing? Church was very much interested in limiting circulation of knowledges deemed unsafe (Index). Autopsy? There was a reason Renaissance humanists had to go the grave robbers way to get that done. And oil, I guess as a reference to Real Life now. So that looks like legit to me. And I would like to know what Linhardt meant by 'forgeries' too. You don't know that. Granted, I don't know if they had Crests either, but beyond a vassal like Rowe, and Gerth, we don't get to see the people you're talking about here. Crests are not limited to only one bloodline (See Bernadetta and Hanneman sharing one, or Lysitheia and Catherine. Or whoever actually possess the Macuil bloodline...). They are marked as standard Dark Mages, like the ones you can see at Tailtean on Dimitri's side in CF. Mole Men are always getting a special mention when they are here. Debatable. I usually don't look fondly on a structure which loses control of its branches so badly they make their own power moves, leading to nasty bloody conflicts, assassinations... And I doubt the Church is always squeaky clean (supports between Hubert and Shamir at least show they have assassins. People like that are rarely used for morally outstanding stuff). Tech withholding is also not done without shedding quite the amount of blood long-term, without talking about writing history with a scalpel, or the sorts of things which would come with ruling a monotheistic religion, like squashing heresy. The whole thing also distills quite the racism with the Crests creating the idea that Fodlani are a 'Chosen people', henceforth superior to unchosen people. When it doesn't give nobles a divine mandate to rule which twisted them into corrupt assholes long-term. And while doing jack shit to reverse the tendance until it is too late for doing so peacefully. And there is 'deal with culprit decisively' and 'butcher them so fast you create an image of uncompromising assholes who kill first while never wondering about this weird concept called 'asking questions. Rhea does much of the latter, and bad news, it pretty much always is. And if you were doing things so right, why is half the continent willing to revolt against you? During the equivalent of medieval times, aka a time when religious authorities could easily trump political leaders?

Sweet Philemon, no! It has been over a millenium now. I take it the idea of 'Crests=Divine Favor' has been drilled in almost everyone in Fodlan. Meaning that if/when they disappear, the peasants would notice, look at the abuses the nobles are committing everyday, and make the following reasoning: 'Nobles have lost the Goddess' favor. Why should we keep listening to these pricks?'. Mass revolts would be happening everywhere, and be an open bar for the Mole Men (which can use their knowledge to create Crest Bearers to craft 'new chosen' to 'lead the 'revolutions'). Or any foreign power kept at bay by now useless Relics. Fodlan would collapse, real bad. And the Church would probably seen as guilty by association, even if Rhea can keep bestowing Crests of Seiros (cardinals and high ranks), and maybe Cethleann and Cichol ones if she can fast talk Seteth and Flaynn into it. But that's it. Better to reduce their importance while they're here, rather than when the crisis happen. Well yes, the nobles screwed the pooch quite bad, with Mole Men assistance. But Rhea created the playground which allowed them to do so, and failed to enforce rules to keep this from happening. That's why she's getting a fair share of the blame.