[A tier list: feel free to argue]

I've edited it now. Also, investment required to make them good is included which is why cyril and manuela are so low.

[About to start Edelgard's paralogue... (minor spoilers I guess?)]

Is this the nader one?

[A tier list: feel free to argue]

9 hours ago, eclipse said:

There's a bunch of things missing here.

1. What exactly makes a unit "good"?  How easy it is to plop them in a niche?  How many niches they can fill?  How cool their voices are?
2. What mode is this for?  A Maddening tier list will look different from a Normal one.
3. What exactly is and isn't allowed?  Are we using broken weapons to grind out supports/classes?  Are we marching through maps ASAP?  What about limits to cooking/gardening/fishing?

Based on how well they have performed overall in my experience (over all routes and files I have with them) when I try to give them the best builds possible (apart from Jeritza, who Is rated low for only being there for 6 chapters and having no mastery abilities and falling off in the end of maddening). Oh yeah, this is a maddening tier list.

[A tier list: feel free to argue]

1 minute ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Yep, I'm not questioning your specific experience of the game, or that it's bound to be different from mine. But in a thread which has in its title "feel free to argue", I assumed you were looking for comments like my earlier one, which attempted to set out how exactly my opinion differed from yours, and why I felt that way.

 

I am looking for comments like your earlier one, I want to discuss and/or argue about this so I can perfect it and then upload it again. I just don't want it to become to intense arguing, like my: 'lorenz is a good unit: change my mind' thread; That one has become extremely intense.

[A tier list: feel free to argue]

11 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Because a lot of aspects of these games are random - you can't guarantee that a unit will turn out the exact same way over two playthroughs of the game. Likewise, I can't recommend a unit to someone else just because they did well for me - once again, as the nature of level ups in these games is random, they might not do so well for someone else.

Now that, is a good and fair point, because everything in fire emblem is indeed, RANDOM.

If you want to upload your own tier list here and compare and argue, feel free, because I find it fun to argue and discuss my favourite game

[Lorenz is a good unit: change my mind]

6 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

How is everything I said wrong? Because if anything, I'd say you're in the wrong here, as you've said nothing to dispute what I've said (and most of what I just stated is facts anyway). Or are you going to keep pretending you have a point when both of us know you don't have one?

 

You havent made any points though. you've just made snide, annoying remarks whilst I'm actually writing paragraphs of argument to talk to other people. And on the occasions where I've answered you and invalidated your points, you just repeat them, except word it differently.

[Lorenz is a good unit: change my mind]

You are ignoring are ignoring growth rates, like you said at the beginning. Growth rates factor in and completely some of the thing you've said: marianne has 25% less defence than lorenz, meaning she will never have similar defensive capabilities,  their magical capabilities differ by 10% (not much) meaning marianne only has a slight edge here.

Also, if that mage is going to one round your physical unit (take raphael as an example, even though he sucks.), thats still 14 less damage taken, meaning raphael will live. So ward does help. A LOT.

I may have just compared marianne to lorenz, but you really shouldn't, because both fill in different roles (for the most part), with lorenz being a magical frontliner (his own special job along with sylvain).

Also, lorenz can use magic bow and frozen lance to great effect, even without being in a magical class

[A tier list: feel free to argue]

2 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Then all I need to say to invalidate this is that personal experience means nothing.

Actually explain why you think this before annoying me again. Also, this tier list is my opinion: there is no invalidation because none of this is based on fact; ITS MY OPINION.

Also like the title says, feel free to argue

[A tier list: feel free to argue]

Remember that this is from my experience

[A tier list: feel free to argue]

I think I was wrong about petra, edelgard and maybe cyril, but for the most part I'm happy with this tier list

[Lorenz is a good unit: change my mind]

Everything you have just said is wrong apart from about ward

 

[A tier list: feel free to argue]

Remember this is from my experience

Look up fire emblem 3h if you want to make a tier list like this

https://tiermaker.com/create/fire-emblem-three-houses-characters-timeskip-spoilers-159689

[A tier list: feel free to argue]

A tier list based on my opinion and personal experience in maddening mode. My playstyle is slow, defensive and safe. Jeritza is rated low for reasons that I've put further down. I had to do research for the other DLC because I don't have it.

[Lorenz is a good unit: change my mind]

I compare lorenz with lysithea because whenever I mention lorenz on other forums, they always say that lorenz is irrelevant because lysithea exists. When I use lysithea in my comparisons, its to prove that lorenz can hold his own against these units which are completely inflexible. If you read another post in this topic I've made, the reason I think lorenz is good because of the amount of different class paths he can take and be rlly good

[Lorenz is a good unit: change my mind]

12 hours ago, DarthR0xas said:

Is Lorenz a good unit? Sure, everyone in Three Houses for the most part is a good unit, but he really isn't the godsend that you're portraying him as.

Just comparing Lysithea and Lorenz to one another is kinda a pitfall. You gotta look at Lorenz compared to the rest of the cast. And he doesn't fair particularly well. You say he can hold the frontline, but he's never gonna make it there as a mage. 4 move is super slow, meanwhile you have fliers and even just other regular infantry classes with better move. By the time Lorenz gets there, your Wyverns will have easily taken out everyone there. He doesn't even have the major advantage of super good range from a siege spell or using a bow. He might be able to tank a bit on the frontline, if he somehow gets there, but he sure as hell won't last long.

You complain about Hanneman's spell list, but it's literally the same as Lorenz's, minus the Agneas Arrow and plus Thoron and Meteor. Agnea's arrow is a nice spell, a bit overrated imo but still nice, but it doesn't make up for his range issues, and all of those spells still hurt his speed, which will substantially hurt his frontline potential. In Maddening, his bulk won't be enough to survive, and he will get eaten alive by everything that moves.

As a healer, yes Lysithea is less flexible than Lorenz. This does not make Lorenz an amazing healer. Even compared to people in his own house he is still worse than Marianne, and I'd probably debate Ignatz since both of them have Physic. Yes, he is hypothetically on the front lines so physic isn't a necessity. But until he gets his mount, he will be scrambling to try and make it to the front lines, so having physic in order to help with that is a necessity for any support unit. As for Ward, yes it's nice but Lorenz is hardly the only viable unit with it. Both Manuela and Hanneman learn it, and Manuela is a far better support unit than Lorenz. Constance learns it, and she basically serves as a flying magical nuke on top of great support skills. This is why you shouldn't just compare Lorenz and Lysithea, since when compared against others both are kinda meh in the support department. Lysithea gets warp, and that's why she still does place higher, this on top of her generally good magic meaning that she can generally make heal work.

Decent strength does nothing if his speed is average at best. It might be enough on hard, but on Maddening it does nothing for him. He might be able to wield one or two of his spells without a weight penalty, but as I said, this doesn't really matter much. Sure he can decently utilize other weapons if he has to, but at that point he's more of a Jack of all trades, master of none.

Thrysus itself is very busted, but since anyone with a crest can use it and get the range benefit, I'd hardly call that in favor of Lorenz. The Pavise/Aegis is something that really only he can utilize, I will agree to that, however that isn't very reliable, and it's absolutely something you shouldn't rely on. 

It's not just Gremory though, now it's also Dark Flier and Valkyrie, on top of Gremory. Yes Gremory itself is a tad overrated, however the additional spell slots are extremely useful, which is something Lorenz will likely struggle with if frontlining so much. Dark Knight itself is a very mediocre class. Its best point is the mobility of it, which is very nice, but Gremory as a whole has more versatility due to the increase of magic slots. Two warps is two warps man. This is on top of other female magic users having access to Valkyrie, which is just a better version of Dark Knight, and Dark Flier, which while gimmicky, is still a flying mage of destruction. So while Gremory is overrated, this does not mean that Dark Knight is particularly good. And on the topic of Dark Mage, yes their skills are pretty good, but as a class they don't fix many of Lorenz's shortcomings.

Don't get me wrong man, I love Lorenz. Dude has one of the best redemption arcs. However he is far from one of the best units in this game. B tier at best. We still have the lord who are amazing, other units like Hilda who can become flying invincible tanks, and just more specialized units who can better fit into their roles. Lorenz needs a specific seal to get into Dark Mage where he can get the skills needed to shine in the role you want him to be in, and also needs a lot more babying to become a good unit, something that the best units in 3H don't need.

I will now address a few of your other claims

Ok, so you make him a myrmidon. What does that do for his later class paths? You want him to become a mage or a cavalier. Myrmidon helps with neither of these. Yes it does fix his speed ailments somewhat, but then it screws so hard with his earlygame that it's gonna be significantly harder to get him back on track.

I personally think you're overestimating the usefulness of Pavise/Aegis. Yes it is nice, but it isn't guaranteed. As for the other viable classes.

Nearly anyone can be a viable dancer, it's dancer, the class as a whole is great.

Great Knight is a horrendous class, however that would mean making an armored Lorenz who would at least fulfill that tanking roll you give him.

Dark Bishop is a decent enough class, but really if you're sticking him there it's just a worse Gremory, or even just worse regular Bishop.

Paladin is a fine enough class, but if you're making a physical Lorenz, just make him a Bow Knight. Bows are just that good in 3H, and since you're focusing on physical you might as well dip into bows to fulfill it. 

I've already stated about the new DLC classes Lysithea has avaliable to her, so I won't harp on that point. Lysithea has two more spells than Lorenz, one reason and one faith. Both are more attack spells, but that gives her more versatility in the kind of spells she can use. Also, Lysithea getting to A rank for warp is actually pretty easy, due to her personal skill. Gambit hit can be fixed with supports for the most part, and the rest is largely irrelevant.

 

 

How does myrimidon screw his early game? It doesn't. all it does is take 5% from lorenz's already decent res. It does nothing to screw him over. It helps him not get doubled. You can just keep his goal as reason and lance, or riding or whatever build you want him to have.

That doesn't change the fact that lorenz would be a good dancer. It would also help his speed a TON if you don't want to keep him in it.

Depending on his build, Lorenz can be a godlike great knight.

Dark bishop suffers from the same problems as gremory

Paladin is an amazing class to remain in

Bow knight is pretty good as well

And of course dark knight and holy knight are good as well.

I agree that lorenz is a jack of all traits and a master of none, but this is why he has a ton of viable class paths: because you specialize him in this class. Lysithea can only go through mage and gremory is her only good master class. Lorenz requires you to customize and master him in a certain way, making him FAR more versatile than any other unit. This is why I think lorenz is easily one of the best units in the game: Specialize him in a certain class and he'll become the best at it. Hilda is only good as fontline and marianne is only good as support. Lorenz is good in nearly everything

 

 

[Lorenz is a good unit: change my mind]

Also note: I don't have dlc so I can;t judge valkyrie and dark flier.

[Lorenz is a good unit: change my mind]

11 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Counterpoint: What do you expect from someone who doesn't have very long to live? Second, mages having crappy defense is to be expected.

That he only gets 2-3 uses of unless he stays in Warlock.

Counterpoint: Ward can be replicated with Pure Water.

Unfortunately, he needs 5 points of strength for every point of speed a faster mage gets over him.

Which can be used by any other mage, other than them getting the Pavise and Aegis effects, which I wouldn't consider something to rely on.

I could turn this back at you, except replacing "Gremory" with "Dark Knight". Why in the seven hells would I want to go for Dark Knight considering the extra investment is hardly compensated? In addition, it's not just Gremory that puts Dark Knight to shame now, as the female-exclusive DLC magic classes are also good. Also, Poison Strike isn't that good outside of NG+, and Lifetaker sucks really hard now, as it only heals for half of the target's HP at the time they were defeated. Which, in case you're keeping score, won't be very much most of the time.

Counterpoint1: Lysithea is only good when she gets the one-shot, otherwise she will get counter-attacked and die (10% def 25% res). Lorenz bulky, with 40% defence on dark knight (I think its 40?). He can be put on the frontlines as well as attacking from a distance, making him far more versatile than lysithea.

Counterpoint2: 3 uses of ragnarock, 5 uses of agneas arrow, 10 uses of sagiatte, 25 uses of fire and is also able to use weapons as well (45% str in dark knight, 55%magic). Do any of your other mages use weapons? I though not. Lysithea can have a sword for soulblade but thats unreliable at best.

Counterpoint3: why would you waster money on pure water when lorenz can already use ward?!

Counterpoint4: Lorenz has a high enough strength growth (and access to frozen lance) to one hit mages and physical units alike. Speed doesn't matter when you get one hit.

Counterpoint5: Lorenz is the only unit in the game which can utilize both effects: the range helps a ton and Lorenz can also use pavise and aegis far better than lysithea (who happens to die when coughed at)

Counterpoint6: you havent explained ANY points which support 'gremory putting dark knight to shame', so I shall list points which put gremory to shame:

Less movement: Lysithea or any other gremory will always slug behind all your other units, making them harder to use if they dont have bolting, physic, fortify or any other long range spell (lysithea has none)

Has to rely on magic: gremory gives a +10% to magic growth; so does dark knight! Nothing special here. If you run in to high res enemies (like the unmoveable or any boss mage), then gremory becomes entirely support (physic, fortify, heal). Lysithea has no way of being support, making her useless and requiring protection. Dark knight gives +5% strength, which gives lorenz 45% strength growth, which is considered above average.

Help my defence!: Lysithea, as previously mentioned, has awful defence. Every other mage does as well. Gremory only has +10% resistance as a means of defence (lysithea will have a shaky 35%). Dark knight gives +5% defence and +10% resistance, making it far more tanky and helping lorenz in the long run

 

[Best and worst units in three houses]

The worst units are definitely ashe, manuella, caspar, raphael and gilbert

[Lorenz is a good unit: change my mind]

1 minute ago, Glennstavos said:

Lorenz is great. He was far from the worst member of the team on my Silver Snow maddening run - which is his worst route if you're going full mage. Thyrsus helped him be as bulky as my physical frontliners, and that's important when your C faith spell is recover instead of physic. Having that heavy duty healing on the frontline really speeds up your advance, and Thyrsus' increased range allowed him to constantly provide linked attack support to the other frontliners so that they would perform better. You can also keep going on the faith training for Ward, giving him some experience gain on any turn he can't be doing something more important.

Ragnarok at B Reason is broken, straight up. Other mages would kill for that, and he was earning the one shot on pre-time skip maps despite his lower than average magic stat (due to being a recruited cavalier). If you are in a route where you must recruit him though, grab Frozen Lance if he doesn't have it already. That will push out about as much damage. He can't double on maddening, but then again, I dare you to show me any mage that doubles anything that's not an armor knight. And some mages (Hanneman, Lysithea) struggle to even secure those doubles consistently for a kill. The truth is that Lorenz's AS keeps up with the other mages because he has a strength stat. Any additional speed is just going to boost his avoid rate. 

His 50% strength and 55% magic in dark knight is amazing, and like you said, lysithea will struggle with doubling in maddening as well. Also I cant keep stressing this: lorenz is the ONLY BULKY MAGE WHO CAN BE A FRONTLINE AND SUPPORT UNIT

[Lorenz is a good unit: change my mind]

Just adding, his speed is average, his strength is above average, his magic is above average, and his faith list is above average. Recover is a useful heal spell paired with canto, and ward is op; don't downgrade ward, it'll be saving you left and right if you use it. The only point I give you Dayni is that you should never put him through cavalier and should only put him through paladin if you want him to be more bulky than fast (both ways work out).

[Lorenz is a good unit: change my mind]

6 minutes ago, Dayni said:

I may have gone too far. Spoilers because of size.

  Hide contents

Lorenz does tend to be slow from personal experience. I've gotten to see him be at least halfway decent speed wise before, but it wouldn't cut the mustard in Maddening. So what has he got that could make him work with one big hit?

His magic list is very unexceptional, Reason giving him Sagittae and all the fire spells (which does give Agnea's arrow), but all of it is heavier (affecting his ability to double), the stronger stuff will have fewer uses and he has no siege magic. His faith list is also poor with Recover and Ward.

In terms of skill levels, he seems to be pushed towards going for Dark Knight as a Master class..... a relatively unexceptional class that does give him more might and canto, but that's about it honestly. The lack of increase in uses stings his use in longer battles. Warlock? Its problem is 4 move when he has no siege. A physical class? Wyvern Lord is used as justification for anyone being good, but I would argue that leaves Lorenz as at the lower end of a pool full of possible fliers. But another maybe is Bow Knight. The problem with this maybe is he has no combat arts beyond the basic ones, which means unless he has stellar regular combat he's wanting for combat options.

As a non-GD unit, he goes down Cavalier, which is a terrible path for him to follow considering he already has bad speed and this doesn't help his magic either. Desperation is also a skill that will not help him in the slightest if you actually bother to finish it. It makes it harder to recruit him later in Maddening, which would better for focusing on what units you start with you want to use/other recruits you want to get better class options for.

His lance work isn't all that stellar either, considering his unexceptional strength. Frozen Lance is good on him if he focuses on magic because he also has a good enough skill growth too.... but if he's on the front lines that he's putting himself at too much risk of being demolished by the first enemy that doubles because his defensive growths aren't being augmented by the classes he's using either as a mage or as a myrm like you've mentioned.

At least the other weapons (except fists) have accessible magic options by Part 2. Lances get Arrow of Indra, available after a paralogue in CF and the finale of VW (An action I still find dumb to this day).

His unique ability list is just sad as it only has Batallion Vantage, which does not synchronise for him at all because he has nothing to synchronise it with. Getting Wrath for that Wrath Vantage combo requires him to wield axes to A rank..... a prospect that seems rather limited to me given what we know. It would require building around it, for what seems to be a poor solution on him.

His growths are very middle of the road, seeming to end up kind of weak in comparison to others long term in most all areas as most of them are 40 base growths. This does not mean he's awful growth wise, merely that he's a unit who's very at the whim of growths. I've never seen him become amazing in any one area for him to focus on. If you want to get his speed going, you're having to focus him in weapons he's less familiar with, a similar problem to his difficulties with Warth-Vantage.

Another point to raise is that the way combat works, he needs 10 points of strength for every two points of speed a faster mage gets over him, which is worse when you factor any spell he uses that's heavier (like the higher might ones you want for more damage).

I mean, Thrysus does help some of these issues. His problem is Lysithea is a better user overall (combination of better spells, gender class access, major crest and better growths for massive magic. I will say the spell list is a fair comparison to make as neither has siege magic or 3 range.) and in the GD, meaning unless you're not deploying her at all or you recruit him and not her he's pretty much an also ran in terms of staves. And the other houses also have people to consider for that staff instead of him: Annette, Mercedes, Linhardt, Hanneman (even Flayn) all have power on their side and/or better magic spells to use it for; even Manuela, Dorothea and Hubert would be worth considering and they take damage from it! Back to GD (barring Lysithea) I would also argue Marianne's a better pick because she's got Thoron and spells with crit. But then again, not all of these are amazing picks either, just wanting to make it clear it and Cadesus are hot items in the interest of plenty of units.

TO BE FAIR, if we're not talking maddening, he is more than useable, I sure have. And at least he does improve as a person in Part 2 and I like him and Marianne together. That being said, I just don't find him that exceptional a unit that requires me to use him much beyond getting Thrysus.

TLDR I'd rather give Leonie the Leicester Alliance and Failnaught in AM.

TLDR Lorenz is unexceptional. That would truly wound him most as insults go.

Sometimes I wonder if it actually is reliable when Lysithea has it. 😛

On my first playthrough I had no idea that it had Pavise/Aegis, so I was confused for a long while.

What gender class access does lyithea have apart from gremory?! It's literally just handicapped dark knight with better speed and charm. Its lorenz who has gender class access (dark mage, dark bishop). Also Lysithea has roughly the same amount of spells as lorenz, meaning that point is false. Lysithea has worse defence, resistance, luck and charm than lorenz. Lysithea may kill better than lorenz, but she suffers from severe losses over lorenz: worse survivability, awful hit and might with gambits, no access to a useful relic, no support abilities (apart from warp, which requires ridiculous amounts of faith training), less movement, gender locked from dark mage line, and less versatility in combat. Lorenz has a solid 50% strength growth in dark knight as well, meaning that even if he runs out of spells, he can still fight with high str.

[Lorenz is a good unit: change my mind]

the pavise aegis effect does help a lot and lorenz being naturally bulky for a mage does not necessarily rely on it anyways. Also, lorenz can become an extremely viable dancer, great knight, dark bishop, dark knight and could even stay as paladin.

[Lorenz is a good unit: change my mind]

1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

Which ones? The mage lines that do nothing for his speed, or the cavalry lines that reduce his speed growth?

Make him myrimidon at the beginning for 45% speed growth and +2 speed, both of which help with doubling

 

[Bad units that you still love using!]

Virion is considered bad by awakening standards but I always try to make him good. He makes a good father in that game too.

[Lorenz is a good unit: change my mind]

False, has a decent speed growth and one of his class paths mostly help with that