Skyteppelin

Wyv is not great until Lyn really so doing griffin or Swordmaster is fine before then, the important part of Lapis and Chlos is that they are fast which they lose if they go wyv until lyn really. I really don't think Swordmaster is that bad and idk why people say it is the only thing it lacks is strong 1-2 range and when it comes to doubling with 1-2 range unless your build is crazy high you aren't doing it with out Lyn. And flying from the chapter 7-11 Span while certainly useful isn't really game breaking or meta defining, warp or no warp. Although also 1-2 range isn't super insane in this game cause enemy arch types are so varied and strong so I rather have my fast units being able to double sword enemy's rather then 1-2 ranging the odd 2 range enemy here or there. I could go on another talk about why Chloe is a fine unit before you get Lapis but not really your best by any means. Vander, Celine, Louis, and Alear are all more useful imo, certainly worth using of course and very good for the long term compare to those 4. Just more so that what she adds to the team before Lapis isn't really all that notable. But anyway my argument was never that Chloe isn't good in the first place, just that her strengths aren't really all that in comparison to Lapis so they should be treated far more similarly then they are.

I'm currently on fell 6 on maddening is anyone else on it or has beat and would like to share ideas? I doing this before chapter 16 so I don't have corrion or seadell well my life be a lot easier if I get them?

Well mainly cause I don't think she does, mainly cause she has a lot of other factors holding her back mainly in how hard it is to get EXP on her with out really taking a hit to a lot of things. Although Id love to try this with framme at some point cause it sounds funny (which now that I think about it on my first run of the game I think I did give it to framme)

I don't really agree that's why I stat boosters shouldn't be brought up cause I think they are important if people can have healthy discussions about the ideas just more often then not people can't which is why I said in the first place I didn't want to bring it up.

Bro context, first off none the stat boosters to make Framme that good are even around for most of the game, she's also much harder to train, and doesn't start as a good combat class. enough with the strawman. Indeed.

Okay so is Lapis better then Kagetsu then? If yes then I agree Chloe is like 1 place above lapis but they are def in same tier still. If not well where back at square one. Of course I'm giving her some, its just not a lot based on what iv seen talked about and my own personally experience she is certainly good and worth using but doesn't change all that much so favoring her or not is up to preference. Like you can train her by having her help here and there, then you can use her for the rest of the game. Which means you can just ignore Lapis or use her as well. Or you can just not worry about Chloe train other units instead and then get the same unit in Lapis later. Regardless of which way you chose your not really going any faster or slower in any context that iv understood so like just do what you want. But that to me def means they are at least in the same tier. She doesn't need to match all of kagetsu's stats to do the same things as him is my problem with this arugment. IN order to double you need to have 5 more spd then the enemy so if Lapis can double everything that kagestu can with "lower" spd then that spd isn't really a big deal. Sure its like a extra point or two of avoid but lapis doesn't have bad avoid so like idk just doesn't really matter. Same with Str if kagestu has 2 more strength but him and Lapis still kill everything in the same amount of time then it really doesn't matter who has more strength. And as someone who has used lapis many times through out the whole game where she can one round everything, I don't really see how Kagestu also one rounding everything with tiny bit better stats really changes anything at all. This is also ignoring any and all levels and other skills lapis can get that kagestu can't. But sense any unit gaining levels to them better is apparently the end all be all for a unit being good Lapis shouldn't be allowed any levels.

We spent a good chunk of the argument talking about talking about how if units can do the same thing they should be ranked similarly and if you still don't agree on that then going down this line again isn't going to get us anywhere. same point as the last time around. Like if you really want to value those 3 maybe 4 chapters where chloe is around that lapis isn't as making her way better then Lapis inspite of Lapis joining with similar if not better stats then I guess sure. I personally don't agree cause Chloe isn't even close to the most useful unit when she is around from everything iv seen were I'm tempted to say Celine is the way better unit cause by all logic that I understand she is the one actually saving you way more turns. If we go by your logic for LTC and efficiency anyway.

She has more then Chloe. Does want stat boosters if she wants to exactly match kagetsu which I think is a worth while invesment but I don't hold it as a boon for her

I defiantly agree on most of this points yea, I personally always use the units I just simply like which normally means I use a Mix of """bad""" and good units. However my arguments for Lapis do come from a place of her being good not bad. Which seems like most people don't agree with which in tern don't agree with that disagreement lol.

1. indeed just Lapis is one of the best long term options cause she the spd to stay ahead of the curve just making it easier overall. 2. I talked with CM extensively about this last night and I don't want to speak for the guy so CM can correct me on anything. But with what he showed me and what we discussed. We basically came to the agreement that the only turns that Chloe herself helps save is a turn on Jean chapter. She doesn't actually do anything to help save turns on any chapter before that, she's just around gathering XP. Then on chapter 7 there is a turn 1 clear with Chloe but there from what I understand are other turn 1 clears that don't involve her (this I might be wrong about not 100%). Then from then on Lapis can replace Chloe, Lapis can also OHKO the boss of Anna chapter while Chloe can't idk if this changes anything about doing the chapter but is something there. CM was telling me that the only reason to keep using Chloe is the sunk cost of having already got edelgard to bond 12 with her. So if bond isn't a problem then Lapis will play the exact same as Chloe from then on just slightly stronger. Also mentioned how there very will could be other ways to turn 2 jean chapter. Which all being said at least proves to me that they really shouldn't be any different in a tier list setting unless you just really really really vaule that 1 turn that Chloe saves (Which from what I understand Lapis might be able to get back on Anna chapter but not sure) 3. Lapis comes before 1 E drop Chloe comes before 2, not counting the 3rd DLC one. But again this is why I didn't want bring up stat boosters cause it just gets into this messy water that no one is going to agree on. Like if you asked me I think giving them to Lapis is better cause she already has higher Str then Chloe and can get things that kagetsu can't so her middle ground in this case works out well for her. BUt most people won't agree. Have fun on your vacation btw!! Framme will not, I can tell you right now as someone who uses her she will not. Lapis also only needs 1 stat booster while Framme would need like literally all of them and even then would prob only match Lapis let alone kagetsu. Again why I didn't want to bring up stat boosters. Although for me I don't find Lapis to be a worse kagetsu or Chloe with stat boosters I find her to be better but I digress. Is that the case? Cause most people seem to think otherwise. As for goal post moving I agree that its been happening but I don't think its me who is doing it at least mostly Iv def done it a little bit. I have no problems with being proven wrong CM has done it a bunch. But I'm also not going to say I have been proven wrong when I felt I haven't been, its not about being afraid to be proven wrong its simply feelinng that I haven't and I could extend to same sentiment to anyone else. I won't cause to me this really was never about proving someone wrong just showing how good Lapis was. While of course Id swap Chloe and Lapis parring cause I think other units are worth raising over Chloe in the early game (mainly Celine and Alear) I think this is a fair analysis. Personally I always use both cause both are very flex able so one can be my marth user and the other my sigurd user. Also yea they both dominate EP with promo onto swordmaster or griffen knight, and marth. Also they have the sae build just for clarity's sake. But yea overall I vibe with what you are saying.

Nah I ain't the one who thinks its an indictment that's why iv been arguing this for so long cause I think opposite I think it makes her just as amazing. Everyone else seems to be one that thinks its an indictment I won't be sitting her arguing she is just as good if I thought her being "diet" Kagestu was bad thing. As for the whole stat boosters thing I don't having a unique class matters all that much just cause the speed stars are just like the best combat units so any one of them getting Stat boosters is what you want to do. I favor Lapis the most cause she is actually amazing from min one, while Chloe def needs to get level 10 before she really starts shinning and Kagetsu just comes after 2 E drops that I could have already used. That's my logic anyway, stat boosters need to be used on someone and while you need to considered every unit when I look at it if stat boosters on Lapis make her better then the best unit in the game to most people I think that's a pretty worth wild investment.

Right but then I think of something like jill in fe 9 or 10 who everyone says to give stat boosters and BP xp to cause she is the best return on investment. So is it not fair to make similar argument for Lapis?

I guess more what I meant is that Chloe isn't really doing all that much cause she is just grabbing XP where she can. This is why I said what I said lol. I find it strange that the idea of giving any unit the stat boosters is bad thing, like Lapis with a energy drop basically turns into a earlier second kagetsu. And idk what world getting a earlier version of the "best" unit in the game is some how seen as a bad thing but most people seem to think it is. Like in any other game iv ever played if i was just trying to win as easily as I could, being offered a chance to get another copy of what was considered the best thing would be a no brainer choice. But yes this is exactly why I don't bring it up cause people come out it with like "oh yea just give X unit a resource that is meant to be used and make unit stronger to any unit makes them worse" I really don't get the logic but cause its such a common response and an annoying one at that I don't bring it up. Thank you thank you CM, I do wonder if it has to be Chloe or couldn't be some other units but I get it. I do find it funny how much Chloe needs to be given to be considered useful but I understand that it serves a good purpose but it is funny cause me suggestion Lapis to get favorable treatment is seen as the biggest slight on her viability. Can't say I fully agree with the mind set

Indeed they are quite good and neat, don't really think Chloe is carrying them seems more Celine and Loiuse are though but yea CM is great. Right and I don't think she would be nor do I think its the only thing that matters (which I will do the run to see how exactly it plays out). But no I don't think your playing the game worse. my title does have two parts to it, I called her the queen of maddening on reddit and that got a ton of negative response. So I did change this title to better OR at least just as good. Maybe it would be even better to say or just as good rather then at least just as good but then we are really getting into the weeds of it. She can do early wyv, is around for longer, and access to part 1 skills (earlier DLC access if you want to add that as well which changes a lot of things). Also that her stats even if slightly worse depending on how its been done don't change what they can do all that much. Also stat boosters but I never mention those cause talking about them tends to never go over well.

Idk where we are at anymore. I am in fact I talk to him about it every time he post about it cause he is my friend on discord. I think if more people actually used Lapis they would feel similar which is why I wanted to show that like hey its worth using her.