XeKr
-
Posts
1,079 -
Joined
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Events
Posts posted by XeKr
-
-
That’s because crossrecruit/mission assist units get weapon rank corresponding to the requirements of the class they’re in. So monks have minimum D reason and faith starting at lvl 5 by chapter 3 (but units that go into Mage like Annette, Lysithea, and probably Dorothea will lose D faith as soon as they hit lvl 11 by chapter 6). You can also see stuff like Fighter Bernie with D Axes and Brawling even though she has deficiencies in those skills. Shamir gets A bows, Cath gets A swords, etc.
_____________________I don’t have too many thoughts on the list in general at this time, except that there are still pretty significant differences per route, for example cross Lysithea isn’t as great in BL as Warp doesn’t improve efficiency that much in a route with DotG. Also her biggest advantage which is early warp is lessened, because c5 warp is probably not happening and Shamir can 1 turn c6. Other warpers are available later and the marginal utility of additional warps is less. And again DotG is a big deal in BL, and between stride, dance, and smite you don't actually need that much warp range (a number of strats are doable with just bishop base and some don't require warp at all) to efficiently clear chapters.
-
Sorry I’m not very helpful with respect to javascript but here are some probabilities for greenhouse statboosters from the buyable flower seeds.
Adapted flower seed chart from @Aggro Incarnate
Gardening minibooster yield probabilities for STR/MAG/SPD. Gold refers to cultivation cost.Purple (STR) 0G 300G 500G 1000G 1500G 2000G 1 Flower Seed 26% 31% 36% 41% 46% 56% 2 Flower Seeds 30% 35% 40% 45% 52% 57% 3 Flower Seeds 43% 48% 58% 63% 68% 73% 4 Flower Seeds 44% 54% 59% 64% 69% 74% 5 Flower Seeds 50% 55% 60% 65% 70% 75%
Yellow (MAG) 0G 300G 500G 1000G 1500G 2000G 1 Flower Seed 24% 29% 36% 41% 46% 51% 2 Flower Seeds 37% 42% 47% 52% 57% 62% 3 Flower Seeds 36% 41% 46% 51% 56% 63% 4 Flower Seeds 44% 54% 59% 64% 69% 74% 5 Flower Seeds 48% 53% 58% 63% 68% 73% Note: 1 Southern Fodlan Seed (0G): 26% 1 Southern Fodlan Seed (300G): 31% 2 Yellow Flower Seeds + 1 Southern Fodlan Seed (1000G): 56.3% 4 Yellow Flower Seeds + 1 Southern Fodlan Seed (2000G): 79%Pale-Blue (SPD) 0G 300G 500G 1000G 1500G 2000G 1 Flower Seed 31% 36% 41% 46% 51% 56% 2 Flower Seeds 37% 42% 47% 52% 57% 62% 3 Flower Seeds 43% 48% 53% 58% 63% 68% 4 Flower Seeds 44% 54% 59% 64% 69% 74% 5 Flower Seeds 50% 55% 65% 70% 75% 80%
We also did some calculations to find optimal seed ratios, assuming for different seed combinations each one has the same chance of being chosen for the (Grade -1) x 5 part. We pretty much computed all the combinations but there’s too many to list so here’s some of the more important numbers we found by screening for certain maxima. Note that it’s mainly mixing in Southern Fodlan Seeds (for mag boosters) for total 3 or 5 seeds that has a relevant impact. The grade for Mixed Herb Seeds (for str boosters) is too low, and Angelica/Nordsalat Seeds are not buyable (though can luck into them via shiny spots).
Below are some other optimal seed ratios when maximizing chances at each professor level (meaning using as many seeds and cultivation as allowed for each level). These were computed by a script so sorry for any typos/errors.
SpoilerRocky Burdocks (Str). No Angelica Seeds.
The maximum probability for 1 seeds and cultivation level 1 is 26.0%
0 Mixed Herb Seeds. 1 Purple Flower Seeds.
The maximum probability for 1 seeds and cultivation level 2 is 31.0%
0 Mixed Herb Seeds. 1 Purple Flower Seeds.
The maximum probability for 2 seeds and cultivation level 3 is 40.0%
0 Mixed Herb Seeds. 2 Purple Flower Seeds.
The maximum probability for 3 seeds and cultivation level 4 is 63.0%
0 Mixed Herb Seeds. 3 Purple Flower Seeds.
The maximum probability for 4 seeds and cultivation level 5 is 69.0%
0 Mixed Herb Seeds. 4 Purple Flower Seeds.
The maximum probability for 5 seeds and cultivation level 6 is 75.0%
0 Mixed Herb Seeds. 5 Purple Flower Seeds.Rocky Burdocks (Str).
The maximum probability for 1 seeds and cultivation level 1 is 34.0%
0 Mixed Herb Seeds. 1 Angelica Seeds. 0 Purple Flower Seeds.
The maximum probability for 1 seeds and cultivation level 2 is 39.0%
0 Mixed Herb Seeds. 1 Angelica Seeds. 0 Purple Flower Seeds.
The maximum probability for 2 seeds and cultivation level 3 is 52.0%
0 Mixed Herb Seeds. 1 Angelica Seeds. 1 Purple Flower Seeds.
0 Mixed Herb Seeds. 2 Angelica Seeds. 0 Purple Flower Seeds.
The maximum probability for 3 seeds and cultivation level 4 is 69.7%
0 Mixed Herb Seeds. 2 Angelica Seeds. 1 Purple Flower Seeds.
The maximum probability for 4 seeds and cultivation level 5 is 79.0%
0 Mixed Herb Seeds. 4 Angelica Seeds. 0 Purple Flower Seeds.
The maximum probability for 5 seeds and cultivation level 6 is 95.0%
0 Mixed Herb Seeds. 5 Angelica Seeds. 0 Purple Flower Seeds.Premium Magic Herbs (Mag)
The maximum probability for 1 seeds and cultivation level 1 is 26.0%
1 Southern Fodlan Seeds. 0 Yellow Flower Seeds.
The maximum probability for 1 seeds and cultivation level 2 is 31.0%
1 Southern Fodlan Seeds. 0 Yellow Flower Seeds.
The maximum probability for 2 seeds and cultivation level 3 is 47.0%
0 Southern Fodlan Seeds. 2 Yellow Flower Seeds.
The maximum probability for 3 seeds and cultivation level 4 is 56.3%
1 Southern Fodlan Seeds. 2 Yellow Flower Seeds.
The maximum probability for 4 seeds and cultivation level 5 is 69.0%
0 Southern Fodlan Seeds. 4 Yellow Flower Seeds.
The maximum probability for 5 seeds and cultivation level 6 is 79.0%
1 Southern Fodlan Seeds. 4 Yellow Flower Seeds.Speed Carrots (Spd). No Nordsalat Seeds.
The maximum probability for 1 seeds and cultivation level 1 is 31.0%
1 Pale-Blue Flower Seeds.
The maximum probability for 1 seeds and cultivation level 2 is 36.0%
1 Pale-Blue Flower Seeds.
The maximum probability for 2 seeds and cultivation level 3 is 47.0%
2 Pale-Blue Flower Seeds.
The maximum probability for 4 seeds and cultivation level 5 is 69.0%
4 Pale-Blue Flower Seeds.
The maximum probability for 5 seeds and cultivation level 6 is 80.0%
5 Pale-Blue Flower Seeds.Speed Carrots (Spd)
The maximum probability for 1 seeds and cultivation level 1 is 31.0%
0 Nordsalat Seeds. 1 Pale-Blue Flower Seeds.
1 Nordsalat Seeds. 0 Pale-Blue Flower Seeds.
The maximum probability for 1 seeds and cultivation level 2 is 36.0%
0 Nordsalat Seeds. 1 Pale-Blue Flower Seeds.
1 Nordsalat Seeds. 0 Pale-Blue Flower Seeds.
The maximum probability for 2 seeds and cultivation level 3 is 47.0%
0 Nordsalat Seeds. 2 Pale-Blue Flower Seeds.
2 Nordsalat Seeds. 0 Pale-Blue Flower Seeds.
The maximum probability for 3 seeds and cultivation level 4 is 58.0%
0 Nordsalat Seeds. 3 Pale-Blue Flower Seeds.
The maximum probability for 4 seeds and cultivation level 5 is 79.0%
4 Nordsalat Seeds. 0 Pale-Blue Flower Seeds.
The maximum probability for 5 seeds and cultivation level 6 is 90.0%
5 Nordsalat Seeds. 0 Pale-Blue Flower Seeds.Optimal seed ratios for highest cultivation level (2000G, Pegasus Blessings) and different seed numbers
SpoilerRocky Burdocks (Str)
_______________________
For cultivation level 6The maximum probability for 1 seeds and cultivation level 6 is 59.0%
0 Mixed Herb Seeds. 1 Angelica Seeds. 0 Purple Flower Seeds.The maximum probability for 2 seeds and cultivation level 6 is 67.0%
0 Mixed Herb Seeds. 1 Angelica Seeds. 1 Purple Flower Seeds.
0 Mixed Herb Seeds. 2 Angelica Seeds. 0 Purple Flower Seeds.The maximum probability for 3 seeds and cultivation level 6 is 79.7%
0 Mixed Herb Seeds. 2 Angelica Seeds. 1 Purple Flower Seeds.The maximum probability for 4 seeds and cultivation level 6 is 84.0%
0 Mixed Herb Seeds. 4 Angelica Seeds. 0 Purple Flower Seeds.The maximum probability for 5 seeds and cultivation level 6 is 95.0%
0 Mixed Herb Seeds. 5 Angelica Seeds. 0 Purple Flower Seeds.Premium Magic Herbs (Mag)
_______________________
For cultivation level 6The maximum probability for 1 seeds and cultivation level 6 is 51.0%
0 Southern Fodlan Seeds. 1 Yellow Flower Seeds.
1 Southern Fodlan Seeds. 0 Yellow Flower Seeds.The maximum probability for 2 seeds and cultivation level 6 is 62.0%
0 Southern Fodlan Seeds. 2 Yellow Flower Seeds.The maximum probability for 3 seeds and cultivation level 6 is 66.3%
1 Southern Fodlan Seeds. 2 Yellow Flower Seeds.The maximum probability for 4 seeds and cultivation level 6 is 74.0%
0 Southern Fodlan Seeds. 4 Yellow Flower Seeds.The maximum probability for 5 seeds and cultivation level 6 is 79.0%
1 Southern Fodlan Seeds. 4 Yellow Flower Seeds.Speed Carrots (Spd)
_______________________
For cultivation level 6The maximum probability for 1 seeds and cultivation level 6 is 61.0%
1 Nordsalat Seeds. 0 Pale-Blue Flower Seeds.The maximum probability for 2 seeds and cultivation level 6 is 64.5%
1 Nordsalat Seeds. 1 Pale-Blue Flower Seeds.The maximum probability for 3 seeds and cultivation level 6 is 69.7%
1 Nordsalat Seeds. 2 Pale-Blue Flower Seeds.The maximum probability for 4 seeds and cultivation level 6 is 89.0%
4 Nordsalat Seeds. 0 Pale-Blue Flower Seeds.The maximum probability for 5 seeds and cultivation level 6 is 90.0%
5 Nordsalat Seeds. 0 Pale-Blue Flower Seeds.The most notable alternatives to just going all flower seeds are in the earlier flower table, but here’s some others with respect to buyable seeds (so mixed herb and southern fodlan)
SpoilerRocky Burdocks (Str)
_______________________
For cultivation level 1The maximum probability for 4 seeds and cultivation level 1 is 46.5%
1 Mixed Herb Seeds. 3 Purple Flower Seeds.Premium Magic Herbs (Mag)
_______________________
For cultivation level 1The maximum probability for 1 seeds and cultivation level 1 is 26.0%
1 Southern Fodlan Seeds. 0 Yellow Flower Seeds.The maximum probability for 3 seeds and cultivation level 1 is 41.3%
1 Southern Fodlan Seeds. 2 Yellow Flower Seeds.The maximum probability for 5 seeds and cultivation level 1 is 49.0%
1 Southern Fodlan Seeds. 4 Yellow Flower Seeds._______________________
For cultivation level 2The maximum probability for 1 seeds and cultivation level 2 is 31.0%
1 Southern Fodlan Seeds. 0 Yellow Flower Seeds.The maximum probability for 3 seeds and cultivation level 2 is 46.3%
1 Southern Fodlan Seeds. 2 Yellow Flower Seeds.The maximum probability for 5 seeds and cultivation level 2 is 54.0%
1 Southern Fodlan Seeds. 4 Yellow Flower Seeds._______________________
For cultivation level 3The maximum probability for 1 seeds and cultivation level 3 is 36.0%
0 Southern Fodlan Seeds. 1 Yellow Flower Seeds.
1 Southern Fodlan Seeds. 0 Yellow Flower Seeds.The maximum probability for 3 seeds and cultivation level 3 is 51.3%
1 Southern Fodlan Seeds. 2 Yellow Flower Seeds.The maximum probability for 5 seeds and cultivation level 3 is 59.0%
1 Southern Fodlan Seeds. 4 Yellow Flower Seeds.
_______________________
For cultivation level 4The maximum probability for 1 seeds and cultivation level 4 is 41.0%
0 Southern Fodlan Seeds. 1 Yellow Flower Seeds.
1 Southern Fodlan Seeds. 0 Yellow Flower Seeds.The maximum probability for 3 seeds and cultivation level 4 is 56.3%
1 Southern Fodlan Seeds. 2 Yellow Flower Seeds.The maximum probability for 5 seeds and cultivation level 4 is 69.0%
1 Southern Fodlan Seeds. 4 Yellow Flower Seeds._______________________
For cultivation level 5The maximum probability for 1 seeds and cultivation level 5 is 46.0%
0 Southern Fodlan Seeds. 1 Yellow Flower Seeds.
1 Southern Fodlan Seeds. 0 Yellow Flower Seeds.The maximum probability for 3 seeds and cultivation level 5 is 61.3%
1 Southern Fodlan Seeds. 2 Yellow Flower Seeds.The maximum probability for 5 seeds and cultivation level 5 is 74.0%
1 Southern Fodlan Seeds. 4 Yellow Flower Seeds._______________________
For cultivation level 6The maximum probability for 1 seeds and cultivation level 6 is 51.0%
0 Southern Fodlan Seeds. 1 Yellow Flower Seeds.
1 Southern Fodlan Seeds. 0 Yellow Flower Seeds.The maximum probability for 3 seeds and cultivation level 6 is 66.3%
1 Southern Fodlan Seeds. 2 Yellow Flower Seeds.The maximum probability for 5 seeds and cultivation level 6 is 79.0%
1 Southern Fodlan Seeds. 4 Yellow Flower Seeds.None for Speed Carrots since Nordsalat isn't buyable.
Really those first 3 charts are the most useful imo.
-
True hit is confirmed: https://www.reddit.com/r/fireemblem/comments/d3zr78/three_houses_absolutely_uses_2rn_a_technical/?st=k0r3u4pu&sh=8a1aa162
Supports/Linked do not work on ep, though avoidtank is still very good. Evasion ring is 10 more and Dimitri/Ferdinand personal is 20/15 more. Fliers get 10 class avoid and up to 30 with avoid stance+.
As for mages I don't have much to add, except that it is very useful to double up certain white magic like Warp or Physic or Fortify and Gremory only loses 2/1 mag atk to Dark/Holy Knight even with no faire, and the higher mag may yield a tiny bit more range for certain spells.
-
A few things that may be helpful:
- DK does not move in chapter 4 unless a unit is in range. At least in BE and up to turn 10. You can just go up the side (imo LHS for the spirit dust)
- I recommend making either Byleth or the lord an archer for chapter 5, since killing the archers from below and/or aggroing Miklan early simplifies the chapter a lot. I got Byleth and Edelgard to lvl 11 without grinding (only aux are the initial practice and merchant quest) tho I didn’t train others that much. I did Byleth archer and still got C+ professor level by that chapter.
- train Annette or Raph+Ignatz authority (poach them if in BE). It’s way more of a turtlefest without that +4 str/+4 spd. Mission assistance Annette is quite useful in the interim but she’s not available for c7
- Cooking stacks, +4 spd cooking and +4 spd rally is +8 spd for example. Pretty massive early. Armor Knight 12 base + 4 def cooking + 2 shield + 4 battalion also can allow easy tanking of maps like c5. Save all the early bait for the early fistiful event (month 6?) and all the buyable bait for the second (month 12?). I personally only buy 4 and 5 star bait each month because I’ve not about to grind that much. <_<
- Crossrecruit or mission assistance can make c7 easier by replacing characters with generics. Just in case you don’t want to face 34 atk, 29 as (darting) short spear Ingrid or someone else. They are also decent filler if post c6 recruit since they get the enemy growth buff from intermediate.But yeah it’s a lot of turtling and kiting rn. There’s the possibility of some cheesy fast(ish) strats early though c7 is potentially a major problem. Though lategame should be pretty doable with enough purple/paleblue seed gardening. (especially rocky burdock + brave arts like swift strike/point blank/etc)
-
It’s not that hard so far (and I’m told it gets easier midgame as enemy AS values go down), but it is a pretty unique mode imo. Other notorious difficulties at least have jeigan characters and/or an overleveled Avatar (Kris/Corrin). FE6 Hard/FE9 Maniac/FE13 Lunatic really aren’t that bad if you just use Marcus/Titania/Frederick. Byleth/Lord have a few points in str, but don’t really have a significant enough stat lead to serve in that role.
The closest comparison I feel is maybe early FE11 H5? Jagen isn’t that strong early, though of course he does have that Silver Lance (and later the game is broken by Wing Spear and Warp.)
It kinda feels like FE9 Maniac without Titania I did casually for some early chapters forever ago but the maps are considerably smaller there.
-
3 hours ago, OCDbox said:
I did it on the last free day before chapter 7's main battle (because I needed a second Stride). I recruited Catherine the same time I recruited Felix and Petra which was during chapter 6. It didn't take much resources because I made sure to hit level 12 at that point and got her C support. She comfortably hit pegasus requirements before this deadline.
Since Catherine’s bases are floored by SM class, but her lvl isn’t, it seems to make sense to recruit her asap insofar as Byleth level and available gifts allow. I know chapter 5 is possible, and heard chapter 4 is. If it takes about a month to Pegasus that’s fine, and if it’s early enough it seems she should hit Falcon too (you think she will with c6-recruit without rigging a promo?). 55/65 are also quite good str/spd growths when you consider she already has 17/14 personal at lvl 7 or 9.
QuoteI'm not super impressed by the Frozen Lance/Bolt Axe/Soul Blade in practice because they are not strong enough to 1HKO enemies and are only usable from 1 range. Her enemy phase is not great as a Wyvern since she can't use magic. I'm not sure how viable it actually is TBH. I'm not sure just being able to get her to A authority is enough to move her to S tier though. I think she's comparable to the other C tier characters who offer movement and other utility, but not as viable at combat. I mean the ideal team will include 1-2 of the C tier characters just for support IMO. I think I probably have Bernie and Ashe too high though and will probably move them down.
Valk who is LTCing BL right now put her in S, I believe for a combination of reasons that just work out.
- Her early combat is actually good because of Wind and ignoring terrain avoid + hitting res is a rare thing early. I have not checked the spd benchmarks but I may if this remains contentious (because yeah, like no one seems to put her in S)
- Wyvern bases actually let her do a lot of standard wyvern things from just the str+spd bases (+other bonuses). Bolt Axe (the Levin equivalent, not an art) also helps in a few cases for 1-3 when Retribution is elsewhere, or if the range is needed on pp (makes her a unique bow wyvern that hits res kinda). It also allows some things like the clean oneround on C12’s boss, which is otherwise hard due to the boss def (need a crit?). Also Crusher is kinda strong, for example base mag Annette can ohko Claude in c17.
- Overall her combat actually kinda stand out at all stages, which is kinda rare in this game.
- Rally Str + Spd enables a lot of early kills. She singlehandedly makes Felix Felix, basically. (it might be partially a meme but people are putting crossrecruit Felix in bottom because of missing his godtier earlygame and since sword/brawl is just that bad). While there are other rallybots, they don’t have both, don’t have her combat, and aren’t in BL natively for the dance gambit.
- Dance gambit is insane since stride lasts after it, and there’s basically nothing impeding fliers postskip. Therefore it’s basically a 13 range warp for 4 characters simultaneously (it's kinda even more broken than that because you can refresh the dancer lol). This facilitates many of the more nontrivial lowturns and makes then even more reliable, and may allow some gardening to be diverted to str/spd as well. While others can do A authority D/B Lance D/B riding, Dimitri needs to focus Axes far more if he wants to fly, and it surely feels more convenient to level authority on a unit that’s actually doing other stuff. And in no cross-recruit categories there really aren’t that many options period.It seems the common, and my own, impression, was the same as yours (decent chip and support) but that’s what makes things interesting. I haven't had the time to really look into or discuss these kinds of things but it's rare you see these huge difference in opinion like for Catherine and Annette so I felt compelled to comment.
3 hours ago, OCDbox said:I think that's fair, I'm convinced since enough people brought it up that. The issue is, I'm not fully sure if Bow knight/Paladin is outright worse than flier as a movement type because you likely will want both types of movement for most maps since you don't have enough flier battlions for everyone to be a flier >_> (and bowflair). You're probably using bows anyway for route maps and durability does kind of matter for that. I also find speed benchmarks less difficult than strength ones around mid game, because enemies start weighing themselves down and becoming more durable. I also admit I'm not sure myself since I haven't properly done a BL LTC before and kind of extrapolated Dimitri would be about as good at that time I made Blythe a bow knight my first playthrough. That being said, his authority strength helps him from a utility angle though which characters in the tier below can't replicate.
I will also admit, I biased myself with this list since it's from the perspective of someone who only LTC'd GD route. Felix is much worse there because he autoleveled poorly, but he's still one of the best recruits even then if you get him early enough (managed during chapter 6 for me). His bad authority eventually bites him though.
dw everyone is still figuring things out but this discussion and stuff is good. You seem to value bows a lot, maybe because you’re doing all quests? Though BL gets at least 2 Retribution gambits and 1-3 mag weapons work on fliers (Bolt Axe Annette still sounds like a meme but again apparently it works), so not really sure Bow Knights are ultimately that useful. The big picture issue is the story maps which are not optional, are all bosskill and are basically all 1 turns. While Bow Knights can replicate some of it, a fleet of fliers does seem more useful.
-
On 8/28/2019 at 4:31 PM, Zkirsche said:
Btw "all talk/boss interactions LTC" would be cool to see optimised.
I should try to find my “No Second Seals Lunatic. The Future Past. All Parent Convos. LTC” route sometime
10 hours ago, OCDbox said:Sylvain Paralogue: The Forgotten 2 Turns
Deploy: Blythe (peg), Sylvain (cav), Felix (cav), Shamir (sniper), Ingrid (peg), Leonie (cav)
Claude (Brigand), Lysithea (mage), Flayn (monk), Catherine (Peg), Hilda (peg)
When you are doing Sylvain’s paralogue? I’m mainly curious because of Catherine, as depending when she hits flier is a big factor in her viability. Also, anyone know if it’s confirmed if she can be recruited in at lvl 7 in c4 with a c/+ support? Extra instruction weeks would obv help.
_______________
Somewhat related wrt to (major) discrepancies in character evaluation among informed players. Annette: her earlygame combat is actually pretty solid due to Wind’s wt, and she has a nice niche with her personal and quick rally speed. Bolt Axe Wyvern apparently does work pretty well, and Crusher can bosskill. Also, she may be the best candidate for Blue Lion Dancers on a horse (and it's arguably better than warp). The other option would be Dimitri I guess? (who probably hits it earlier/more reliably but may want to be a flier). To clarify: S tier was suggested for her.
wrt to Dimitri: I’m not even sure his earlygame is all that due to 7 spd base. Felix’s 9 makes him the best earlygame combat, and even Sylvain’s 8 is more solid for reliability purposes. Ofc the bigger issue is difficulty to go wyvern, he can do it but it seems to take some rng (and if whiffed he may miss a lot of exp as other take over that role and get that rout or bosskill exp).
Dimitri’s main advantages are: slight statistical lead due to personal and growths. Not sure how relevant, especially since it’s harder to hit spd benchmarks.
more durability due to hp/def and personal avoid: may be relevant for some paralogues/quests or for stuff like the c14 2 turn. Sylvain has much earlier battalion vantage access though, nice against mages. Felix’s relic also seems to proc often, anecdotally, which is some ‘avoid’-equivalent.
Atrocity: mainly notable for accuracy given how strong braves and swift strike are.
So it probably comes down reliability for early spd benchmarks, and various places where str advantage may matter (any obvious ones to come to mind?). I’m almost interested enough for a real analysis soon. >__>
5 hours ago, Kinsei said:Reading this topic has been extremely interesting (and enlightening to some of the crunchier bits of the game), but I had a couple of questions.
First, I keep seeing the term "snowballing", but I'm not quite sure what it means in this particular context. I'm sure it's something simple that I should've been able to just infer, but I'm drawing a blank tonight.
And also, is there a listing somewhere of class progressions and skills/instruction one should be focusing on a character-by-character basis for those being used in a LTC run? There seems to be a lot of consensus on this tier list and the discussions seem to imply that those doing these sorts of runs (and discussing said list) are doing very similar builds, so I'm really curious to see something at least somewhat more comprehensive about that.
A snowball example could be Felix in BL, he has the best chance of onerounding enemies in some early routs, which lets him get some more exp which then furthers the statistical lead and makes him one of the best combat options throughout the game. Since he misses that start and autotrains near-useless sword/brawl in other routes, he’s far worse there.
Or like on paper Saber isn’t too different from other mercs in bases/growths but because he gets so much of a headstart he is dominant in practice.
In FE there aren’t actually too many snowball-y characters though since usually it’s better to just use the prepromoted unit or other high base units and not rely on growths. The ests and trainees and villagers require too much investment to be efficient options, despite (sometimes) being pretty strong once they do get going. Marcia/Jill in Tellius (tho bexp is a factor there) or Seliph or Robin are probably the classic examples.
This topic has some of the best tactics documentation I’m aware of. In general I’m not sure about ‘consensus’ yet but rather it’s imo pretty obvious the general skeleton of efficient clears in this game given how strong flier/mobility options are, and the overwhelming number of bosskills in the story. I think the basics are get fliers (and cavs early), get warp (and other easy mobility boosts like smite/rescue/etc), get authority (for 2nd stride, dance, and retribution gambit). The details are more complicated and are still being figured out.
-
Getting the "This comment can no longer be edited. It may have been moved or deleted, or too much time may have passed since it was posted for it to be edited." error almost immediately after posting so sorry for typos and doublepost.
Just want to add that new information suggests the lord autolevel to 20 only happens in NM. Still get the bases in HM though. It already probably wasn't worth not using the lord early, and now it definitely isn't (since even with insane stats for lvl 3 they're weak for c13). Unless you really just want those big numbers and a superstrong endgame lord at the cost of a much weaker team earlier (which to be fair, is a pretty easy part of the game)
-
On 8/25/2019 at 12:52 PM, OCDbox said:
That's a fair point. Even I don't go for absolute low turn count. I'm not sure where to draw the line, but I arbitrarily set it to where a LTC strategy can be reliably replicated. The strategies I use have almost always reliably yielded the turn counts I listed earlier (before you start hitting the 1 turn boss clears where it's not that hard to figure out).
The chapter 1 strategy in 5 turns is hard for me to justify because in addition to those low crits and crest procs, you need the levels ups to cooperate to hit certain benchmarks for the next few chapters (although it's really just preventing low side of averages). You also don't have divine pulse at this point. I'm not sure what the crest proc rates are as well at this point. It was already hard enough to rig killer weapon critical hits and making sure sub 70s hits don't miss even with divine pulse for 2 turning Sylvains paralogue with chapter 7 units, I can't imagine doing this.
FYI my chapter 7-5 turn is probably suboptimal as well and Ingrid's paralogue is probably 1 turnable with a dancer later on as well (and massive magic herb Lysithea abuse).
I now understand chapter 3's 5 turn, it's reliable as well on GD. If you can get Leonie, Raphael, and Claude strided on turns 2 and 4 (Claude needs 16 strength/10 speed minimum with iron bow before rally strength), have Leonie behind him use curve shot afterward (Marianne likely doesn't have Thoron at this point).
On BL you can use Felix and Ashe and Annette. On BE you can use Edelgard, Bern (needs deadeye and personal skill) and Hubert/Dorothea probably.
I don't understand the 2 turn for chapter 4 strategy or why Felix and Dimitri need rigged strength? Isn't the limiting factor movement? I'm pretty sure Lysithea can hit warp by then though (Which requires resets so she gets both choir events and lots of perfects on teachings).
I'm still not sure how to reliably get the statboosters either. I've tried to influence the RN when before planting the week before, but it didn't work.
Same tbh. After all, ‘low’ doesn’t have to mean ‘lowest’. In general people go for a level of reliability they consider “acceptable”, though that can of course vary. I tend to favor something like expected turncount, wherein the turns lost by resets on average are also counted (divine pulse a little tricky but still possible to account for I think).
Routs are hard. I believe you’ve gotten the lowest tc I’ve seen in c7, though I want to say there was some theorycrafting about a 4 turn or something…
PIngridDorothea is going to be hard to 1 turn I think because there is going to be a lower limit on warp range preskip, and no aoe dance gambit then.
I believe the c3 5 turn involves ignoring the fow mage and letting Catherine kill it turn 4. This results in enough units to kill the guards and Lonato. It sounds like you figured it out as well or another variant.
Sorry, I was referring to the c4 2 turn outside GD and without rigged instruct Lysithea. So, warpless (2 turn in GD is more easily doable though still requires a bit of luck iirc). The DK is in the way so either need to kill him or gambit+sacrifice someone (or someone survives a round). Also need Smite, so this is more a BL strat since Edelgard probably doesn’t want to train Armor (unless you want to autolevel trick her maybe).
Hmmm I feel like tried the preplant reset thing and did get some trials with boosters and some without but going to need more testing. which I don’t have time for rn.
__________________________________________(and because it came up wrt paralogues)
This list does not have to follow tradition, a list can do whatever as long as it’s specified, but here’s a quick explanation for gaiden/paralogue treatment in the past.
To start, there’s no hard rule but in general players like to go for them for lore/content/true ending reasons. The primary exception used to be fe7c19xx as it requires Nils grinding and Lyn mode (and it’s possible to play HHM without LM) and I guess FE11 since the ‘no death’ clause supersedes it. The new age exception is children paralogues, because getting them all is quite the different game from other efficient runs (and to my knowledge, no one has really seriously routed it). Even there, often paralogues like Mozu or p1-4 and Tiki are part of the run (but not superconsistent there).
In FE16 there’s a few options, mainly resolving around crossrecruitment. In no crossrecruit, it’s easy enough to just go to the paralogues of your native class students + faculty that join. In full crossrecruit, it’s easy enough to go to all the available ones. In optional crossrecruit it gets a little messier (maybe still just the paralogues of the original students?)
Aux battles seem akin to skirmishes/Tower of Valni, so those should count for extra turns imo. Btw I think you can retreat from the ‘forced’ one, though the exp may be useful (and make up the 3ish turns?).
Quest battles are iffy ground, while they are technically content, they are largely just random routs like aux. ‘No quests’ means no dancer and merchants and such (even battalion/forge?). It’s arbitrary but some players are doing ‘only merchant quests’. ‘All quests’ seems fine though, if you don’t mind the maps and all the fetch stuff.
Finally, ‘Rest only’ is a pretty clean solution, but arguably takes out a lot of the game.
wrt to low clear time: Due to animation skip and Rest/Skip being so much faster than Explore, it’s largely a Byleth solo (with autolevel lord postskip in NM). Catherine/Shamir/Seteth may help a bit. Warp means flying is not as necessary on Byleth (and faculty instruction is way too slow). It’s very different, and TC has specified this list cares about turncount anyways.
-
I don’t think I have major disagreements or anything, I just want to note that sometimes it can be beneficial to go straight into an advanced class given how big a jump it can be for base stats or if the next map really favors it (due to terrain). There may be opportunities later to master that lower class.
One thing I’m unsure about is soldier though. There’s only 5 levels to intermediate and there’s a pretty big jump there to stuff like Brigand or Pegasus or Cavalier. At least 1 move (+jumpstart on deathblow), up to 2 and flying/canto, or 3 and canto. In my experience, even in casual runs, I find the only beginner mastery I tend to get is monk. Additionally while Reposition is very good, you have a lot more move and mobility tools like Canto and Warp/Rescue, and a lot more units relative to enemy density, compared to FEH. So it feels less relatively useful in that sense.
I sorta see top tier as “I would stay in the class for mastery in a blind lunatic run” (at least for non-unique/master) and I’m not sure soldier fits in there. Not sure about “strong consider diverting”.
Also, perhaps not worth bumping but more a notable thing for Vantage, greenhouse statboosters make Vantage ohkos reasonable (especially Lysithea who masters at double speed and can just adjutant a map or two). Also while it was mentioned briefly, it’s worth noting Vantage/Wrath(/Defiant) has a few advantages in this game compared to the past in that, it’s 3x dmg again, and crit is a lot higher due to luck contributing and battalions giving a lot and still some class/ability bonuses so that 100% is possible, and Retribution means it works at nearly all ranges (tho not ballista and Gambits). More fun than that useful, but pretty much all class masteries are in the current state of the game.
-
On 8/21/2019 at 6:08 AM, Cysx said:
Well, what gifts though? The game provides very few at that point(4 or 5), and gardening for flowers significantly hurts your prof exp gains from the Greenhouse, which I assumed would matter to an extent.
I know it has been tested and between the various items and gifts and eating/choir and whatever other support point opportunities there are early, it is possible to get Lysithea in BL in the weeks after chapter 3 (I believe there is a bit of rng for the flowers and since you’re counting on her asking you via B support autorecruit) and then she can reach warp by c6 (and it has been estimated with near-perfect luck, maybe even c5).
Statbooster farming only really begins after the first merchant quests which is around chapter 6 I think (I admit I haven’t had the time to look over VincentASM’s gardening update in detail though). Professor level can be grinded by fishing, which yeah sucks and is realtime inefficient, which is why I noted elsewhere the tier list may depend heavily on how monastery content is treated.
An aside on that note: while some may think gardening is analogous to grinding or things of that nature, there is really no precedent in FE to farming this many statboosters. Additionally, if one is okay with stuff like FE4 arena, bexping units in Tellius, or in this game eating meals for motivation, cooking for stats, faculty instruction, choir, returning lost items, fishing, etc, then gardening actually takes way less time than that stuff with its instant menus and no cutscenes. It’s probably less than 5% of the Explore time. So I don’t see a solid reason to ban it (besides it being too broken). It seems to be part of the natural and intended gameplay loop.
I also want to emphasize that it’s not a matter of resetting and rigging until statboosters show up. You can refuse to reset and probably farm 20-30 statboosters across the game, conservatively. Anecdotally, I have seen other players say (and this matches my experience) that you get a booster nearly every week if going all 1 color seeds + highest level cultivation. There’s something like 60 weeks of explore (16 chapters between c6 and the end, about 4 weeks per chapter, minus paralogue/quest/other weeks), so you can imagine the potential. Unless the criteria specify the player must Rest every week (which to be fair, might be the more clean solution), gardening should be a relevant factor imo.
On 8/21/2019 at 11:07 AM, Dark Holy Elf said:Yeah, NeoElfboy is me. Glad you enjoyed the XF guide; I consider that a gem of a game and I always think it's a pity it was such a niche game.
Definitely some great, if sometimes weird, srpg ideas in there (and music too). Also not sure if you remember but we had some discussions on the gfaqs FE10 board way back in the day too. I recall you made some of the most compelling arguments. Fun times >_> (username is Voidtemplar)
On 8/21/2019 at 11:07 AM, Dark Holy Elf said:Beyond that I appreciate the response, and I do understand why things are the way they are, and I definitely understand the difficulty in trying to predict what "new" or "aerage" players do. In particular many average players probably just grind at the Tower of Valni or auxillary fights etc. etc., but we don't do tier lists based on that because everyone functions well under those circumstances.
In the end I agree that a tier list is going to have to make assumptions for its criteria, that's the nature of the beast. The criteria I favour aren't as popular overall likely because they're more arbitrary, and that's fine. I'll probably always push for them to be considered a bit in these conversations, but I fully expect folks like yourself to push back and frankly your arguments are very sound.
In fairness, my “normal” playstyle is to get all items because some maps are just too short and trivial otherwise and yeah even I personally find it more fun and interesting, I just don’t see how to argue going for all those items as efficient. I think that distinction is important.
I would actually be down to discuss how characters perform in an all-items environment, but it almost seems like stuff like warp is even more useful in some of those cases? Like right now you can go completely warpless and still trivialize some maps, so a lot of this movement utility is overkill. But if going for other objectives, warp is like one of the best ways to get a unit into another part of the map quickly and reliably, so it’s kinda even more valuable. If necessary to cover more map distance, unique mobility or utility is often what distinguishes units even further. Even if you wanted to go for the accuracy ring in the top left or go full Kill-Every-Last-One-Of-Them, warping through the wall would kinda still make that easier (like cutting the chapter in half by approaching from two directions instead of going the full loop). Additionally, for Lysithea/mages in general, their combat is probably more relevant if not 1 turn kill bossing most maps.
And on a more meta note, in hindsight my use of “we” in the last post was poor and I don’t speak for anyone else. There’s not really an LTC cabal that agrees on everything and schemes to influence all tier lists. There’s also quite a number of “consensus” “optimal” strats or builds or character evaluations that I disagree with, or at least think are arguable (for example I don’t think +Mag Dragon F!Corrin is the best build. And I actually think some early Pegasus Knights/Cavaliers have traditionally been overrated for combat. Some fliers in this game have overrated combat, even already. Felix probably not best as Mortal Savant though that may be more an SF thing, etcetc). It’s more that there are certain strats wherein it’s hard to deny the efficiency, and certain units contribute more to those strats or benefit more from specific resource allocation, and those sort of opinions persist over time because of more objectivity/less arbitrariness/simply magic/whatever.
I honestly think I’m one of the players that cares the most about reliability, like way more than necessary. For example I would favor using binomials to more accurately describe stats (probability of at least a stat at a certain lvl and compare to enemy stats) rather than averages which tend to only be approx. 55-65% likely (to have at least that average stat), which is hardly “reliable” imo.
On 8/21/2019 at 8:26 PM, OCDbox said:I understand why people dislike LTC. Although this game is one of the most reliable ones to LTC. Rigging boss kills with crits are pretty rare and the stat benchmarks are in general not hard to hit (although sometimes it requires rigging certain characters to not get stat screwed).
Do you mind clarifying more? As I understand, Krash and Valk have devised 5 turn strats for chapter 1 in GD and BL, though they require a Hilda Smash 20ish crit + crest proc on Dedue and 2% crit on Claude respectively (of course there may be a better possibility that no one knows or has documented yet; you yourself noted 6 turns though). Additionally, c3 in 5 turns seems possible with 2 8 AS units with bows, or Felix crest procs (again maybe better is possible). Linhardt in BE and poached Lysithea outside GD can probably reach warp by c5 if resetting for perfect instructs. Gardening may yield upwards of 50 statboosters if rigging (not totally sure yet but it seems possible from pre-plant resets, though not in-greenhouse resets like flower quantity). Valk also thinks a 2 turn in c4 is possible (without sacrificing a mission assistance unit) if Dimitri and Felix have rigged str/spd. Are these acceptable strats for you/this list? (no problem if they are, I’m actually just curious about your standards. You finding these ltc strats independently and optimization in routs is legit impressive and I’m just wondering about these other scenarios.)
-
4 hours ago, Technoweirdo said:
While I haven't looked at every student's averages -- wouldn't normally think of comparing to Sylvain because of his Bow weakness --
Not sure I'd call Cyril's bases questionable, at least in the context of students. (Catherine cheats by having Swordmaster bases at Lv. 9)
Curious how students grow through auto-levelling to beat their averages though.
...Besides Sylvain. I can almost guess why in his case. lolI only brought up Sylvain because he’s a free crossrecruit and one of the best wyvern candidates because that +1 str +2 spd over his normal bases actually helps a nice bit in terms of certain early kills. This allows him to snowball earlier and more than many other units.
You’re very right that Cyril Bow rank gives a nice niche, perhaps I dismissed that too much. Shamir seems to be the obvious choice for a Bow flier, given her bases and very easy Pegasus access, but there aren’t too many others. Cyril seems pretty comparable to Ashe, though quite notably it seems most don’t think Ashe is very good? There are some others like BL Felix (crossrecruit levels sword/brawl which is not great) that also make excellent Bow users. Felix matches Cyril lvl 9 str at lvl 1, and has 15% more growth and has his major crest. He’s also quite fast. That said, Cyril does fly which is a nice advantage and Point-Blank is good (though he’s fast enough that he may be doubling anyways). Another factor though is Cyril only flies in advanced tier, and a lot of the routs where the Bow advantage is best are earlier in the game. By the skip (and earlier in BL iirc) you can use stuff like Retribution to let anyone counterattack all ranges.
To my knowledge, no one has figured out exactly how cross-recruit works. It does seem to be consistent, for example, the speedrun gets Sylvain as the dancer who seems to always have 14 charm. And there’s been some anecdotal reports of unit doing better than average, such as that Sylvain example and I think Petra/Ingrid. Something to figure out for sure.
-
Cyril is pretty solid because all fliers are good but bases are still questionable. Look at Catherine/Shamir who can be recruited lvl 9 or 11 with minimum personal 17 str, 14 spd, 12 def, (that’s 19 str, 18 spd, 13 def on the initial stat screen for Catherine compared to Cyril’s 10/11/7) A weapon rank and they’re not even the best characters in the game. Sylvain can be crossrecruited at lvl 3 with 10 str and 10 spd, and some other autolevel'd students also seem to outpace their averages. Cyril also lacks the growths of other FE villagers, so while his bases are higher due to autolevel, he’s really just another unit/student (and there’s tons of flier options).
-
For some reason I cannot edit my previous post, but besides a few typos and other things, I want to add that it's hard to judge what items and side objectives "new" or "average" or "majority of" players care about and sometimes it's easier to ignore them (the items and side objectives). Hard to have a consistent standard.
Also the Linhardt thing has been empirically tested in BE. Players have gotten warp by c6. In BL get Lysithea or do the long route.
edit: why can i edit this post but not the one above...
-
On 8/19/2019 at 7:30 PM, OCDbox said:
I'm not sure how to aggro the boss in prologue. I'll have to fiddle around with it.
That's true enough, do you think Shamir should move up a tier?
True, but I don't think she should go below her current tier. She can be set into essentially, Seteth you can get much earlier. I'm not sure the people below her compare favorably.
Seems like you saw, but ya the boss aggros when the bottom group is dead so you just have to finish them asap. You can also use the fact the boss prefers to attack Byleth on ep. This should be a bit more flexible wrt the trade chain.
I’d have to think some more how to order the flier candidates. (Also while most people probably don’t care about the subtleties, I don’t think LTC and efficiency are quite the same thing. Though obviously closely related, especially in this game. Yet a single list under the umbrella of both is a little fuzzy considering character evaluations and viability can differ. I’m not sure about your criteria, the phrase “lowest possible turn/efficiency” can mean a lot of things especially pertaining to the reliability of the low turns).
Anyways Catherine, if she can still get into a flying class reasonably fast, is probably pretty good as you say, but not sure how fast is reasonable. I do know it’s possible to recruit her at lvl 9 in chapter 5, giving her quite the crazy bases for that lvl, but it may be difficult to have Byleth at the requisite level (15) in run that cares about turncount (the NM GD speedrun does use her). Additionally, even if she gets into Pegasus at a decent pace, Falcon seems pretty far off with no proficiencies, so she’d be lacking in move and att and authority compared to Seteth (who also has Swift Strikes as an option). So just not sure there overall.
Re: some other points. Annette’s quick access to Rally Strength/Speed can be useful. The Authority boon units are also good to use Dance of the Goddess later, especially since cav is so easy to get into. I also don’t think the Physic users are as good as Manuella/Flayn who can contribute more with warp/rescue.
On 8/19/2019 at 11:51 PM, Verve said:I made an example vid for how to 4 turn the prologue
Re: your list, it looks good from a GD standpoint. Very envious of your turn counts because I'm doing BE and warp comes out noticeably laterThis seems like a solid strat. iirc if you trade weapons to your Byleth or your lord of choice you have a few more resources for c1 (like an extra bow?) but it may not matter much.
Also, I believe it’s possible to get warp on Linhardt by chapter 6, so c5 seems to be the main issue (range is tiny in c4). As has been mentioned, it seems possible to hit Miklan early using a bow combat art so he runs toward you. Greenhouse can allow him to get crazy mag later so the growth difference doesn’t seem super important.
9 hours ago, PPPPPPP270 said:Here's a question I'm wondering about the warp users. If you were doing a BL playthrough. You would need to recruit someone to get warp or be stuck with Maneula with her lackluster magic stat. Should you recruit Linhardt or Lysithea? I would say recruit Linhardt because Lysithea has E rank faith when you recruit her. Linhardt would have C rank faith. So he would get warp faster than her unless I'm severely underestimating mastermind. You still want both of them for sure
As for boss killing most bosses are very weak. There's only a few exceptions like the death knight and the final boss of each route. I assume you don't need much investment to kill a lot of bosses.
You can crossrecruit Lysithea asap (spam gifts) and get her to warp by chapter 6 in BL, though you have the same c5 problem as BE stated above. No crossrecruit is way different but it may be possible to get Shamir to chip the boss down with Curved Shot. And again later you’re feeding the warper all those magic herbs so Manuella’s mag should still be very high.
22 hours ago, Vorena said:Would not Bernadetta be above Ashe by a slight amount? Their growth rates are damn identical apart from the fact that Ashe gets 15% more luck and 5% more resistance. However, her personal skill selection is way better than Ashe's as her budding talent in riding grants her Pass and not being at full health grants an extra +5 dmg. Granted you hav to rig taking that damage at some point, but with doubling its hard to pass up free +10 damage especially early on where no unit is getting something like lancefaire, bow faire, etc. until lv 20.
I know tiers were not ordered at the time but springboarding off this: I could see Ashe being better since he has axe proficiency and hidden talent lance so he has an easier time going wyvern (and advanced is also only C flying). Pegasus strength is far lower (and no faire) and Bernie is bad in Swords for Falcon. And it’s arguably too much effort to set up her personal when maps are so short. I don’t really know how good she is early though. I currently don’t think Ashe is very good then, in BL Felix seems to have the better chance at onerounding as an archer for routs like C7 and others.
36 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:Anyway I personally prefer discussions that don't assume things like warpskipping the Miklan fight; there's a lot of class/weapon/regular exp available there which will be missed out on, not to mention the Accuracy Ring, and I suspect the overwhelming majority of players will try to get those things. I definitely understand the argument for efficiency but I find it more interesting in the context of efficiently completing secondary objectives and obtaining treasure certainly qualifies for me.
Also if you take "lowest turn count over everything" as your metric then obviously units with Warp will be supremely useful. If Lysithea had trash combat but still had Warp at B she'd still probably be the single most valuable unit for turncount, but I wouldn't find lists that rate her highly particularly useful for anything except a LTC guide. Just my two cents.
I know where you’re coming from and I’ve always respected your posts and opinions (since the gfaqs days if you are NeoElfBoy, your Wild Arms XF guide was rly useful btw. But even if I’m crazy/confused, just your posts on SF). I’ll try to give a brief overview of how it came to this point.
At this time I’m not going to get deeply into the philosophy of what or who the tier list is for. That’s a mess of an argument that’s been argued extensively in the past, and I’m sure in the present and future. Another day, perhaps.
I mainly want to note there’s nothing stopping you from making or discussing such a tier list that goes for optional items, that is intended to be more helpful to newer players, or other such criteria. In fact many have made such lists in the past.
The main reason such lists have not endured is that is impossible to agree on things like what “new” or “average” players know, or how they play and use units. The curse of knowledge makes it particularly hard for experienced players to judge these things.
I also want to note that players interested in efficient clears allow for a number of “unoptimal” plays, frankly in large part for sentimental reasons. For example “no deaths” is typically considered valid despite sacrifices speeding up some maps. “Complete recruitment” is another objective that players often go for, because we want everyone to join and work together. We also go to gaidens and paralogues for cutscenes that are skipped even though it’s objectively inefficient to do so. It's not super consistent, but I don't think you'll find people who totally ignore that stuff.
The thing with items is just they’re just largely useless. If they are indeed good enough to be measurably improving reliability or something like that, then sure go for them, but if they really just don’t help, it’s hard to justify along lore/plot/character reasons.
I could almost be convinced to consider certain talk conversations as part of that too, as a side objective to go for, but I think it’d be harder to convert others.
Finally, it is absolutely valid to be concerned about exp missed in doing skips. This can be analyzed by calculating the chance of certain bosskills later in the game with different level units, and seeing if those extra levels actually matter. For the most part however, skipping is not going to prevent reliable bosskills later in the game (gardening plays a major role in this for this game and quests/paralogues/adjutants allow exp catchup) and so with our current knowledge, it does seem more efficient to do the skips.
I think the concerns you brought up have always been a thing, but I hope I gave some reasons why things are the way they are.
-
Some known turncounts for GD no crossrecruit, yes paralogues and merchant quests, not mine. I make no claim as to their reliability. To my understanding people aren’t really going full low turn mentality bc the rng is too much especially in monastery.
Prologue can be 4 turns if aggroing the boss early and trading the iron bow around. 5 can be 1 turn, again not sure reliability.
Of later chapters 10, 11, 12, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 can all be 1 turns.
8 and 9 are 2 turns.14 is a 3 turn (warp+stride the npc).
We also think GD 22 can be a 1 turn with a 73 mag gremory Lysithea (not that unreasonable with gardening) but to my knowledge it hasn’t been tested.
I think op is more optimized in quite a number of the other chapters, especially certain routs.
(edit: ah it has been posted https://twitter.com/BoomKrash/status/1163498922460905472 . This was a test run so routs are not that optimized particularly C7 and Sylvain. I believe Aggro did a Sylvain 2 turn in BL so that's possible.)
23 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:I'm generally not a fan of prioritising LTC over everything, it kinda overrates the importance of things like Warp IMO. I do like discussions centred around fast playstyles, though, since going really slow makes everyone good. That said this list looks very solid and well-thought out to me anyway, there's nothing I can point to as obviously wrong.
I don’t like pure LTC either for tiering but I think you’re underrating warp. It’s hard to objectively value stuff like warp and flying, relative to combat potential, except by hard metrics that involve stuff like turncount. For which warp has humongous value in chapters like 5 and 6. (Admittedly, otoh, here many other maps are doable in 1-3 turns even without warp, it’s not even the single thing that breaks the game). It’s also possible to reliably get up to absurd numbers like 64 mag+ 4 rally + 4 cooking for 18 warp range later, seemingly without greenhouse rigging.
19 hours ago, OCDbox said:I can agree with Dimitri, although I do agree he's worse than your other lords. I wouldn't say Paladin is outright worse though. Bowknight isn't impossible for him to reach either, and he does level up quicker and snowball reaching promotion quicker. I think he does compare well to the other A tier characters, but his early/mid game is probably better before everyone becomes a Wyvern.
Catherine can reach Pegasus knight benchmarks by chapter 7-8 giving you a 6 move flier with really good stats if you recruit her right away. Although Falco takes awhile, it's not the worst place to be in while waiting for it to happen. I think she's better than the B- tier characters though who run into issues getting the stats in the right places for benchmarks even in hard mode. I can see both sides to the argument though. Seteth is good, but he arrives 6 chapters later when she is still really strong. Her personal also seems solid considering you don't have enough flier battalions early on making her more bulky that most of the other pegasus knights you have available.
Shamir still has the same probably early on, but less so since she just needs D in riding.
I'm hesitant on moving either yet though, but I'm open to it. Anyone else have any opinions on this?
It’s a little harder for Dimitri to go wyvern or bow knight since he misses instruction c13-17.
Due to great bases, A bows, close counter and near instant Pegasus, Shamir contributes nicely toward a number of rout paralogues and quest battles. Additionally she can do stuff like 2 turn chapter 8, since Solon has a 1-2 range gambit and 1-3 range spell, a sniper at 3 range easily onerounds him on ep2 (requires 30 atk, 11 as).
Catherine theoretically could go Pegasus but it takes much longer and she’d be using swords/lances. Swordmaster also has like no niche and anyone can use the Thunderbrand for bosskills.
19 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:Are we sure Byleth is S incidentally? S/he is certainly solid but swords/fists aren't really the weapon you want to favour in this game. What build is generally suggested for him/her in efficient runs?
For realtime efficiency: basically a solo in sword classes->their unique class. Want to move as few units as possible, crazy bases help, plus Sword of Creator gets story repairs and rest is the fastest. Byleth gets some help postskip as you also have the lord since they get promoted bases and are autoleveled to 20 (so you can end up with insane things like 31 str 34 spd lvl 20 Claude in chapter 13).
For turncount efficiency: Pegasus(->Wyvern)->Falcon/Wyvern. You can get it pretty smoothly with faculty instruction. The base str and extra exp from the personal skill makes them the best flier. Incidentally that fact that yeah it’s true other combat units are in the same vicinity of combat potential as Byleth means Lysithea is arguably the best character in the game.
-
This is kinda late but: Not that it’s efficient to do so in Hard, but avoidtanking does kinda trivialize the lategame.
30 natural+10 flying+10/15 prowess+10 ring+10 battalion+30 alert stance+ is 100/105 with axes/lance before supports, which is 10 per A and can consistently be +30 considering siege tomes and bows. Avoid from Spd can be much higher from growths or pale-blue flowers->spd carrots which are very easy to farm. Certain units also get personal avoid bonuses.
With supports that’s enough to lower nearly all hit rates to 0% (even in the hacked lunatic endgames). You also have 12 divine pulses or whatever crazy number. Just kill enemy gambits on player phase with all your crazy mobility tools or pulse them.
Actual tier list depends a lot on how monastery content and cross-recruitment is treated, as well as optional battles like paralogues and quests. So ground rules need to be set for that.
-Lysithea (warp. Earliest which is important for c5 and c6. Highest mag, seems to be pretty consistently up to like 60-70 with gardening. Luna may be important for GD endgame)
-Byleth (Female preferred for Sylvain and Pegasus line. Maybe wyvern tho her strength is rly good already, and she gets a minor hit/avoid advantage with lances. And that’s more training to authority, plus maybe heavy armor/riding, so skipping advanced is possibly fine.)
-Lords and Wyvern candidates and Shamir (can be recruited at lvl 11/13 with sniper bases and with lance rank already go very quickly into Pegasus Knight for 17/17 str/spd with A bows).Is a good start. Literally every non-paralogue map postskip (iirc after chapter 9) in BL/GD/CH is kill boss (not sure the details for BE except most are bosskill also). Most are quite trivial, except for endgame.
26 minutes ago, OCDbox said:Ingrid paralouge: She needs 2x stride, and multiple combinations of rescue, warp, and smite to reach the exit by turn 3
Aggro Incarnate has claimed a 2 turn is possible without smite iirc.
-
I like Edelgard because I’m cynical enough to think that sometimes it is necessary to do monstrous things for the greater good. Even if most modern media, especially entertainment, is pretty overwhelming in denoting that as evil (unless the character shows remorse, then it can usually be all forgiven).
I think sometimes, as with Edelgard, this does take you down a terrible road and many mistakes are made. Knowing other possibilities and outcomes from a meta-perspective, her path does not seem like the best one. But it’s incredibly hard for humans, while taking action, to pre-judge the results and impossible to change past actions in hindsight. (divine pulse certainly seems like it can’t be used in that way also).
I’m actually not sure the game really engaged this theme very deeply and well overall, and it’s been done better in many other stories, but it was enough to make me feel some real sympathy for Edelgard. Not because her background is sad (which it is, to be fair) or her intentions are good (which ultimately means little), but because consequentialism is really hard and one of the most human things is struggling with it (and that’s enough sometimes). -
4 hours ago, Shikan Raider said:
Got my copy today was experimenting with it a bit.
What I haven't found out is that, is it possible to load one of your save files while you're playing, or is there a way to return to the title screen with having to close the game?
I remember the 3DS entries having a button combination to soft-reset the game so that you could go back to the title screen, is something like this possible as well?
Soft reset is L and R and + and - .
-
19 hours ago, Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi said:
My Nino is +Spd and was running Fury 3 with Hone Atk 3, Hone Spd 3 and Fortify Res 3 on her for buffs and she still quite comfortably scored most kills. There were some were she needed to drop Aether, but they were enemies with 8 HP or less left, so if I'd been fielding actual full buffs, she wouldn't have even needed that. Barring F!Grima, anyway. That's one where I was off by nearly 20 HP, so a special was absolutely necessary.
TA does not stack. It just takes the highest value between both combatants and uses that.
Hmm, good to know. Though I suppose you just have Nowi kill the reds, whereas in triple refresher builds the attacker usually needs to beat the counter-color (sometimes the TA dancer can but they have very low durability still and usually don’t double), and the extra atk and special matters a bit more for those. This aspect would be an advantage of the double dancer and double attacker builds, to better address colors.
I do know that Linde was not killing some red enemies as well on her initial attacks (before Axura/YT!Olivia weapon buffs), so in my team the flexibility of (atk) tactics was nice to not always have to end turn next to a friendly unit. I’m sure with smarter positioning it can be overcome though.
Also I knew about the (non)stacking for Gem weapons and TA, but wasn’t sure about the enemy skill vs. your own units. Thanks for that.
-
3 hours ago, XeKr said:
The old +Spd (just +1 merge) Linde fury/desperation/bladespam from the start of this game still works without too much trouble, so it doesn’t seem like much has changed. Well it’s buffed a bit now by Flashing Blade Seal + Dragon Fang and double flying dancers + Tactics Seals.
Haven’t had time for Marth but I imagine it should still work.
I was prepared to +10 a +Atk Nino or the f2p dragons Tiki/Nowi/Fae with my 900,000+ feathers but it seems there’s still room for stat inflation to go. >_>
2 hours ago, Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi said:Desperation blade tomes with full buffs have always inflicted gross overkill on normal targets, so I don't think it's especially surprising that it's still powerful enough to carry a team through these inflated stats. I think most of the problems I had with Abyssal was my EP dragons not having quite enough damage to kill—even with TA3 advantage (whereas Nino only had that issue on select overly bulky stuff, like the armours, if she had her buffs). I was beginning to wonder if I should swap over to multiple refreshers when I ended up beating it.
On top of that, while it wasn't specifically on this map, a friend deployed Rein against Abyssal Marth and it worked just fine. Old, mainstay meta is meta for a reason, I guess.
From the other (F!Grima) topic. Basically brief discussion on (essentially unmerged) desperation bladetomes+ WoM refreshers vs. abyssal. Brash+Desperation+Brave may also work.
Yeah I think Linde is at 77 atk after buffs, though the 115 Dragon Fang was needed for a decent number of enemies.
Though I didn’t run Brazen Atk for 4 more atk, Atk Tactics for 2 more atk (forgot it’s an easy SI from 4* Legault), and of course a +Atk +10 Nino would have 5 more Atk as well. So at least 11x2 more damage before procs.
Actually I went ahead and did the Brazen Atk and Atk Tactics thing since I have the resources. Managed to beat Marth’s Abyssal (which is why I posted itt). I think Death Blow 3 or Swift Sparrow 2 could have worked tho. Possibly Fury, though it would require better dancer positioning (my atk tactics is on Axura). LnD doesn’t work with this strat, which kills the Bow Knight first turn, taking a counter.
Flying Olivia also needed Triangle Adept to team up with an Azura on a green mage (the ones that starts with TA, unless that doesn’t stack?). And the refreshers of course need WoM (lvl 1 is enough).
Anyways it was basically kill the sword, get danced kill the Bow Knight (taking the counter for WoM range), get danced twice and break the left wall (more space to move). Sweep the bottom, including the Blue Knight and Green Mage that comes down (The Knight with a Linde Dragon Fang. Olivia+Axura kills the mage). Kill the rest, trying to save specials for the remaining Green Mage and Marth. Axura and NY!Azura may have to take a hit from the blue cav (both are at full hp, I think my NY!Azura did it, and she doesn’t have Triangle Adept).
-
The old +Spd (just +1 merge) Linde fury/desperation/bladespam from the start of this game still works without too much trouble, so it doesn’t seem like much has changed. Well it’s buffed a bit now by Flashing Blade Seal + Dragon Fang and double flying dancers + Tactics Seals.
Haven’t had time for Marth but I imagine it should still work.
I was prepared to +10 a +Atk Nino or the f2p dragons Tiki/Nowi/Fae with my 900,000+ feathers but it seems there’s still room for stat inflation to go. >_>
-
264(!) orbs for neutral Summer Corrin (high spd flying blade user = pull)
15 orbs for +Res/-Spd Ninian (dancers more and more useful in 'assault' formats)
rng giveth, rng taketh, etc
362 in stock, a few misc from paralogues/quests/stuff outstanding.
-
Wacky strat, but managed Infernal w/ Linde, 4* lvl 40 Olivia, lvl 1 Ninian, Eirika. Basically Eirika did some distracting in the upper right while Linde with her 2 dancers cleaned up the bottom. Olivia did some WoM teleports and Eirika did some ER teleports to help handle reinforcements as they come, and find safe spots. Perhaps there's a cleaner way to finish them off early to not fight them all, but didn't see anything obvious for this team (prob need galeforce?).
FE7 Reliable Stats Efficiency with Expected Turncount metric - LHM in 46.5~ Turn (Guide to Expected Turncount Included)
in Fire Emblem
Posted
Some potentially interesting trivia for FE7 LHM efficiency, beyond the baseline in the videos.
The specific improvement in fe7prologue is to risk the 3 turn if Lyn is not hit ep2, attacking Batta if Lyn is at full health pp3 (even though she’ll take 3 total attacks by the time she can heal). The improved 5 turn chance seems to barely outweigh the increased reset chance on turn 3, on average.
Just for the record these are the numbers
bossmisspp3ANDbothhitep3 = 0.067481
bosshitpp3ANDatleast1hitep3 = 0.17246
ep3codGIVENep2nodamage = 0.23994
ep2nodamage = 0.69190
***ep2nodamageANDep3cod = 0.16601
***ep2nodamageANDpp5cos = 0.52589
ep2damage = 0.30810
***ep2damageANDep3cod = 0.030756
ep2damageANDep3nodamage = 0.14411
ep2damageANDep3somedamage = 0.13324
***ep2damageANDep3nodamageANDep4cod = 0.015128
***ep2damageANDep3nodamageANDpp5cos = 0.12898
***ep2damageANDep3somedamageANDpp6cos = 0.13324
*** = important numbers
For a strategy with
65.5% (52.6% and 12.9%) chance of clearing on turn 5
13.3% chance of clearing on turn 6
19.7% (16.6% and 3.1%) chance of resetting on turn 3
1.5% chance of resetting on turn 4
The Expected Turncount is ~6.0
The Conditional Mean Clear Turn is ~5.2
The Conditional Mean Reset Turn is ~3.1
The Reset Penalty is ~0.8
#justdosims (>_> doing stuff by hand gets exponentially complicated even for very simple chapters)
Simulations suggest ~96% chance of the bosskill in fe7c2 if you consider kent pp, kent ep, kent pp, sain ep, but forcing it does incur a bit of Kent cod as mentioned which may not be worth it. I believe the 90% 4 turn was calculated manually, and it seems pretty complicated with all the conditionals. We could do a more involved sim but ultimately it wouldn’t affect the numbers too much (but could be an interesting exercise)
The 5 str Lyn (64% for at least 1 proc in 2 levels at 40% growth) 3 turn in fe7c3 (~3.4 turns) is basically just the Sain cod on ep3, plus a tiny bit of unreliability elsewhere. Lyn can die ep1 though it’s very unlikely (she faces 1 less merc and 2 more bandits than the other variant, where she has 4.9% cod). Lyn can miss the merc, and if she doesn’t crit it’s probably a 4 turn (slightly more likely but it’s just 1 more turn at low probability, not rly worth the calc).
Other units with the requisite stats, like Florina with at least 6 str (78.4% for at least 1 proc in 3 levels at 40%) 11 spd (57.5% for at least 2 proc in 3 levels at 55%) (overall 45.1% at lvl 4, 66% at lvl 5, 80.1% at lvl 6), can possibly combo for the fe7c7 bosskill, though the exp buffer is nice for Sain. Such a Florina can manage around a 95% 2 turn, though she may want the robe to avoid cod. We investigated other combos with Lucius, Rath, and Lyn, and such, but even with the crit chance and potentially doubling the odds aren’t really any better than Sain Iron Sword.
If you don’t have the armorslayer from c6 and your invested cav is Sain, in fe7c9 you probably want to use the Lyn+Sain combo on Eagler for the 3 turn. The chances are pretty good, around 93.6% that Lyn and Sain have some str combination that will enable the kill, if Lyn is lvl 7 (90.5% with lvl 6 Lyn) and Sain is lvl 11. Lyn also has to hit a spd benchmark which she’s very likely to get (95.9%/91.3%) by lvl 7 or 6. Sometimes with this variant, Lyn will crit to get the bosskill, which you just have to accept since you have to use the Mani Katti for effective damage. So uh, get the armorslayer.