Mia with adept + Ike support vs Titania with speedwing

[Progenitus]

Who is better?

For purposes of this argument, ignore any costs associated with giving them those favoritism. That is, assume that Mia is the only person capable of using adept, as well as the only person capable of supporting Ike. She will take Soren's adept in 3-P and her Ike support will build at a normal speed (no support abuse).

The speedwing in 2-3 is shipped over to the GMs in 3-2 where Titania takes it. Again, assume that Titania is the only person capable of using this speedwing.

Don't argue about which unit is receiving more favoritism.

[whase]

I'd say Ike, since is an amazing unit. but if Mia gets very lucky with her mastery skill, she might win.

Ike doesn't really need to be that lucky to win, and so I'd say Ike (even though Mia is my favorite).

EDIT: whoops, I misunderstood the question. my mistake XD

I never used titania, so I wouldn't know :)

Edited January 4, 2010 by whase

[Anouleth]

TITANIA IS GETTING MORE FAVOURITISM

Oh, sorry, it just burst out of me. Disregard it.

In 3-2:

Mia lvl9 C Ike w/Adept w/Steel Blade

35HP 32ATK 156HIT 23CRT 29ADEPT 29AS 100AVO 14DEF 8RES

Titania lvl17 w/Steel Axe and Speedwing

37HP 37ATK 155HIT 23/24AS 80AVO 20DEF 14RES

(I didn't know who to put as her support, but she'd probably have an extra point of defense or something)

Enemies have 17-19 AS in this level, so Titania is doubling everything, and generally 1-rounds very reliably (she needs to switch to Steel Poleaxe for a few toughies, and she doesn't 1-round the Generals, but she leaves them on single digit HP with the Poleaxe, and if hammer exists she can OHKO all of them.) Her durability is also pretty good - enemies have 29-33 ATK and 110-140HIT, so she's getting 3 or 4 HKOed with 30-60 display hit. She can also switch to Hand Axes, her attack goes down to 35, which still 1-rounds some Paladins.

As for Mia, she's doing okay. 32ATK 2HKOes Sages and Swordmasters 3HKOes the Paladins and Halberdiers, 4HKOes the Wyverns, and 5HKOes the Generals. When she doubles against a 13 LUK enemy, her Adept proc rate is roughly 50%, with a 19% chance of critting (if Adept procs, her chance of critting is more like 28%). So she has:

100% chance of dealing 2x regular damage or more

60% chance of dealing 3x regular damage or more

25% chance of dealing 4x regular damage or more

15% chance of dealing 5x regular damage

Possibilities like double critting are too unreliable to consider.

Mia's durability is also good. She's getting 2 or 3HKOed by most things, but she has good enough dodge that even the most accurate enemies have at most 40% display hit, and in most case it's more like 20%.

I think it's pretty clear Titania is winning, though. Neither are at serious risk of dying, but Titania 1-rounds far more reliably, and has the movement advantage.

[Vykan12]

Smash, my brotha. You never learn.

Anyway, pertinent thread about this comparison.

[Narga_Rocks]

Smash, my brotha. You never learn.

Anyway, pertinent thread about this comparison.

Isn't that more T vs. T though?

Of course, I stated that A => B already. (A being Mia(N)>Titania(N) and B being Mia(T)>Titania(T). So if Titania(T)>Mia(T) then Titania(N)>Mia(N). I didn't make it an if and only if, though, so if A isn't true then it says nothing about B, and if B is true then it says nothing about A. Also I'm the only one to state that there is any correlation between A and B at all so others may disagree with A => B and everything it means.)

If I cared enough I'd go find a few posts from the SF tier list where the N versions were discussed (it was before we added transfer units). Well, we tried to involve the costs and he stated to ignore them. He also left out that they both get whatever forges are appropriate and actually give significant help. What I'm not sure if Smash realizes or not is that we've pretty much always been assuming Titania gets that speedwing (I mean as far back as when Mia made her move up High Tier to where she is). Each time he brings up the speedwing it almost seems like he thinks giving it to her is some new idea that will change everything. Also he still seems dead set against deploying Ilyana in 1-E to transfer that wing to the GMs and significantly reduce the opportunity cost of giving Titania a wing in 3-2. Hence the need of ignoring said cost because it would completely sink Titania's chance of winning if we included the cost of denying Haar the wing (Mia takes only a small hit from getting what she gets).

And it amuses me that the first person to reply in this topic misunderstood the question and answered with Ike > Mia, which is obvious.

[Progenitus]

It's funny, because Titania with a speedwing (ignoring the cost of the speedwing ofc) is actually about equal to Ike. Less durability (which actually doesn't even start off that large) but more mobility. Offense is almost exactly the same.

[Narga_Rocks]

It's funny, because Titania with a speedwing (ignoring the cost of the speedwing ofc) is actually about equal to Ike. Less durability (which actually doesn't even start off that large) but more mobility. Offense is almost exactly the same.

Oh she's good, but she's not Ike level. Sure, she starts 3-2 with 23 AS just like him, but his lower level makes it easier for him to get speed despite his lower spd growth. Chances are he'll hit 24 AS before her, though sometimes she'll get there first, and ditto with 25 AS. On average, he'll get there faster. Then in part 4 she has more issues than he does since he had all of part 3 to slowplay for spd and he'll have at least 2 more than her in part 4. (He can easily finish tier 2 at 28 and start tier 3 at 30 AS, she'll probably start at 27 but may have 28). Throw on the durability difference as well as 3-4 and 3-7's movement restrictions and while it's nice that she has axes for Hammer access in part 3 it's not enough to offset the wins. I'd say about equal to Ike is quite off. Also he still has 3-P and 3-1. Her movement and canto isn't enough to put them in the same tier.

It's true that the durability difference isn't that big to begin with, but it increases pretty quickly and steadily. If you really think that Titania with a wing is about equal to Ike, I'd suggest attempting to argue her into top tier considering many of the rest of us are essentially just giving Titania the 1-E speedwing. Whatever you think about the cost of giving her the speedwing, since the rest of us don't consider it to be all that high you might as well argue in that context.

[Progenitus]

Ike's chance to get +1 spd in 2 level ups: 58%

Tits' chance to get +1 spd in 1 level up: 50%

That's none too significant.

I guess since Tits' spd cap blows, Ike technically gets a spd lead (since he has a better chance of being spd blessed than Tits), but it's nothing worth talking about.

BEXP is nothing worth talking about either, Ike sucks at it because his caps are too high. If Ike can get BEXP'd despite spd only barely being his 3rd highest growth after capping skl/str (65 HP, 40 def, 35 spd, 30 lck), then I don't see why Tits can't, if only to ensure that she'll reach the 25 spd cap (60 HP, 55 skl, 50 spd, 40 lck). And, you're also ignoring how quickly they can get their speed up in part 4. Ike is no longer getting anywhere near twice Tits' exp, which means she'll be gaining speed on him, if she was even losing to him in the first place. For example, if Ike is 20/20/1 and Tits is 20/20/3 at the start of part 4 (note that Ike has 28.15 spd and Tits has 28, using lazy averages), then the difference in their exp gain is only 3. That'll take awhile for Ike to close the level gap by 1. On the other hand, if both gain 5 levels, then Ike gets 1.75 spd while Tits gets 2.5. Ike has a speed lead? No longer.

And if really needed, Tits is a little better at BEXPing in 3rd tier. Ike doesn't even cap anything until 20/20/15. Tits at least caps str by 20/20/10.

Offense for either of them isn't something worth talking about. Their str and spd are too similar.

Sure, Ike wins durability. But that's the only reason why Ike vs speedwing Tits is debatable, because she wins mobility. The problem is that Ike's durability lead starts off fairly small. 8 HP + 1 def vs 7 res. HP >= res in equal amounts, but this is none too significant. Then at a certain point his durability is in the overkill range (lolragnell, lolearth), which means we care more about how Titania can survive rather than the raw gap between them. Plus durability can be fixed somewhat (imbue, cancel, pavise, robe, shield, etc.)

On the other hand, Tits mobility lead starts off large, and aside from a few chapters like 3-4 and 3-7, remains large the whole game. And mobility is very hard to improve.

I'm not going to bother bringing this up in the tier list here, you know my opinion about it.

Edited January 4, 2010 by Andrew W.K.

[Narga_Rocks]

Ike's chance to get +1 spd in 2 level ups: 58%

Tits' chance to get +1 spd in 1 level up: 50%

That's none too significant.

It just means that typically he'll increase speed 1 chapter earlier than her. Of course sometimes she'll get it in 1 level and he'll take 3, but the majority of the time he'll likely hit 24 and 25 a ~chapter before her. Aside from 3-P and 3-1 where he has a full 2 spd boost, that's another 2 chapters he has clear wins and unless those coincide with 3-4 and 3-7 that's already 6 chapters in part 3 where he has clear wins most of the time, of which 4 chapters are all of the time.

I guess since Tits' spd cap blows, Ike technically gets a spd lead (since he has a better chance of being spd blessed than Tits), but it's nothing worth talking about.

BEXP is nothing worth talking about either, Ike sucks at it because his caps are too high. If Ike can get BEXP'd despite spd only barely being his 3rd highest growth after capping skl/str (65 HP, 40 def, 35 spd, 30 lck), then I don't see why Tits can't, if only to ensure that she'll reach the 25 spd cap (60 HP, 55 skl, 50 spd, 40 lck). And, you're also ignoring how quickly they can get their speed up in part 4. Ike is no longer getting anywhere near twice Tits' exp, which means she'll be gaining speed on him, if she was even losing to him in the first place. For example, if Ike is 20/20/1 and Tits is 20/20/3 at the start of part 4 (note that Ike has 28.15 spd and Tits has 28, using lazy averages), then the difference in their exp gain is only 3. That'll take awhile for Ike to close the level gap by 1. On the other hand, if both gain 5 levels, then Ike gets 1.75 spd while Tits gets 2.5. Ike has a speed lead? No longer.

It's still going to be at least 29, though I say 30, rather than 28.15. And I'm not convinced of the 20/20/3 thing, though I suppose it's possible.

And if really needed, Tits is a little better at BEXPing in 3rd tier. Ike doesn't even cap anything until 20/20/15. Tits at least caps str by 20/20/10.

Wouldn't they both not really be able to do anything until 4-E-1 for bexp? It hardly matters for that chapter since they should both have the 30 AS to double Generals quite easily. 4-E-2 might matter, though Titania only needs 20/20/13 to have 33 speed anyway, assuming she got winged in 3-2. Not sure the bexp ability matters much at this point. Then in 4-E-3 they both double dragons and have wyrmslayer access anyway but he might have the 34 AS to double deg. Even giving him the 30 AS for 20/20/1 that I want to give him that's still around 11 or 12 levels needed, but I should think 20/20/13 is reasonable for this point in the game. If he only got 29 AS then he may need to wait until 4-E-4 and then might still not get it, I suppose. 20/20/15 might be a little much for 4-E-4 or 4-E-5. Still, he at least has a prayer of 34 AS, unlike Titania.

Offense for either of them isn't something worth talking about. Their str and spd are too similar.

Well, Titania actually gets Hammer access, so as I admitted before that's a slight win for her. Of course, then Ike gets Ragnell, but she can have silver poleax a chapter later and she should be promoted by 3-11 anyway. So it's a spd issue not str issue. (spd issue only presents itself in the first half of part 3 and the first ~third of part 4 and the last little bit when the cap difference makes itself known)

Sure, Ike wins durability. But that's the only reason why Ike vs speedwing Tits is debatable, because she wins mobility. The problem is that Ike's durability lead starts off fairly small. 8 HP + 1 def vs 7 res. HP >= res in equal amounts, but this is none too significant. Then at a certain point his durability is in the overkill range (lolragnell, lolearth), which means we care more about how Titania can survive rather than the raw gap between them. Plus durability can be fixed somewhat (imbue, cancel, pavise, robe, shield, etc.)

Okay, but then we must look at how durable Titania actually is. And by "we" I mean possibly neither of us since I don't currently care enough and I'm not sure what you'll do.

On the other hand, Tits mobility lead starts off large, and aside from a few chapters like 3-4 and 3-7, remains large the whole game. And mobility is very hard to improve.

Yeah, just one item and one skill that are probably better off elsewhere. Oh well. I'd be more worried about the mobility advantage if there were more units with 9 move that destroyed things like in PoR and if Titania could reasonably survive 4 or 5 attacks in a row on a consistent basis.

I'm not going to bother bringing this up in the tier list here, you know my opinion about it.

Yeah. I know. I don't know why you bring it up here at all, actually, unless you really wanted to see varied people's opinions on it. Sadly there haven't been many people chiming in with an answer. Maybe if you make a poll?

Anyway, out of curiosity would you say Titania (T - spd) should be > Ike (N)?

[Deliriyum]

I'd have to say Titania is better at first, but once Mia promotes, she would most likely be better. Mia's chances of activating astra, adept, or a critical are very high in one round, and will allow her to one round mostly everything except some generals. Also she has great avoid as a trueblade, on top of an earth support. Titania is better at first because she one rounds more, is more durable, more mobile, more range, but her avoid starts to fall out on her. She'll still be very reliable, but not as capable of great things as trueblade Mia can with her skills.

Edit: Also, to look at sol, it boosts Titania's durability, but the extra attack isn't so essential to her than astra is to Mia

Edited January 4, 2010 by core34510