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XeKr

Lunatic efficiency playlog (no galeforce?) (Up to Chapter 14)

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[spoiler=Links to various chapters]

Not super duper optimized at all, particularly early on, I just wanted to see what turncounts roughly look like with a few conditions.

- No Spotpass, DLC.
- Anna shops, event tiles, barracks, etc are fine but I probably won't use them.
- Renown starts at ~330 (maybe more so Celica's Gale is available for Walhart, etc.)
- All Paralogues and Challenges are optional and count for turns
- For the purpose of this topic, efficiency refers to fast and reliable clears (tending toward the lowest
expected turn count). I think I generally favor more reliable clears, or strats that transition, compared to other LTCers.


Decisions I'm making.
- Not resetting for growths, etc

- I do not like sacrificing units if possible.
- +Def/-Luck. It's very possible +Spd or +Mag or something is better in the long run, but +Def snowballs quicker.
- Not using Galeforce. It's probably faster in the end since the Renown Seal is there, but w/e. >_>
- Testing a core of Griffon Avatar, Griffon Panne, Great Knight Lucina, and Rescuebot Morgan. Just for fun.

[spoiler=Premonition: 2/2]

Yep



[spoiler=Prologue: 5/7]
Essentially followed Redwall's strategy. Kill middle Myrm, then Mage while luring the top group, then Mage again while blocking some spaces, then boss. Chrom was unequipped the whole time so there were 4 nice and easy kills for Veterantar. I didnt really see a configuration where its more favorable to have a nonzero Dual Strike chance. I prefer taking advantage of Veteran over an unpaired strat.

Also a minor modification at the end. If Frederick has 8 or more health, he attacks the boss with the Bronze Sword on turn 4 with Chrom unequipped. If Frederick has 7 or less health, Frederick heals and equips the Silver Lance with Chrom unequipped. Chrom finishes on player phase either way. The former occurred for my run.

We eschew the 4 turn here (requires a Dual Strike or Frederick being at higher health and getting the bosskill) in favor of a more reliable 5 turn with Chrom consistently getting more exp. We also don't have Chrom face a 2hko at 65% true hit. Frederick's chance of death is probably ~5%, but there are always those rare outlier cases like Gamble crits or multiple Frederick misses on Barbs which result in death or lengthening the chapter.

Imo, it's probably not worth the turn, but w/e I went with it. I think it's well understood 4 turns is easily possible with Chrom getting the kill. As well as an alternative and even safer 5-6 turn.



[spoiler=Chapter 1: 4/11]
Random enemy movements, Frederick's level up, random skills and various inaccurate attacks can all cause trouble here. There are usually ways to consistently 4 or 5 turn using a few key ideas.

Pair Chrom and Frederick so they double Fighters. Pair Avatar and Lissa so Sully and Virion, unpaired, are available for chip. In my case, Avatar with Lissa with chip from Sully and Virion just kills the Archer which was convenient. It's pretty important to chip the Archer a little bit on enemy phase while still being relatively safe.

I like to have Frederick with Chrom end the first turn 1 space left of where Chrom starts. Avatar with Lissa just out of range of stuff. If the Barb attacks Frederick from the South (Merc to the left), then Avatar finishes the Barb from the adjacent square on the right (allows him to counter the Archer on enemy phase) at high accuracy, Frederick kills the Merc from on the fort; he just kills with a Bronze Sword, which also gives him triangle against the coming Fighters. Virion trades the Elixer. Sully moves Up. If the Barb is to the left and Merc to the south, Virion moves and trades Avatar Thunder away so he doesn't steal the kill and chips the Merc. Avatar moves adjacent in the same square as the other case, trades for Thunder and the Elixer, and finishes the Merc. Frederick kills the Barb from on the fort.

Each case appears to happen randomly 50/50, but at least that's half the time Avatar isn't attacking the dodgy Merc (against Patience, Avatar only has 78% true hit). Either way, we have nearby enemies dead, the Elixer to Avatar (not sure if this matters or not), and Frederick on the top fort by turn 2.

At this point, Frederick has to dodge the Hammer (it's quite low true hit on a fort) but everything else is pretty variable for the next 2 turns. If Frederick got Str on level up, he can one-round Fighters that don't have Hp+5. If he gets Spd, he can double the boss, making it a little more lenient to 4 turn. If he doesn't kill Fighters, it's possible to get Avatar a little more exp but it can be dangerous. Should probably try conserve Silver Lance uses if possible as well. Just need to use Sully and Virion chip safely, and should be able to 4 or 5 turn with Avatar getting the bosskill.

I ended up with a pretty common configuration. 1 Fighter was left alive, plus an damaged Archer and full health Merc over on the side. Frederick could weaken the Archer further for Avatar to kill with Bronze, while being in range of the Merc. Avatar finishes the Archer while in range of the Fighter but not the Merc. Turn 4, Frederick weakens the boss, Avatar finishes. Sully and Virion chip and finish the Merc. If Frederick didn't double the boss I think I would have finished the Archer with the Silver Lance so the Merc would be more heavily damaged and require less chip.

Now reading through my strat, I just realized that maybe the initial Merc doesn't die (turn 2, in the case it's to the left) if Frederick doesn't proc Str. For some reason I never ran into that case. I suppose Frederick can use the Silver Lance first turn to solve that issue. Or maybe just keep Virion out of range and have Avatar to counterkill an extra enemy.



I already hate Chapter 2 again. >_>

Edited by XeKr

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You're telling me. I'm looking at C2 (for reference I have 2/5/5) and I'm thinking to myself "...uh... I'm not liking the run of efficiency the first time around already."

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C2 is only the beginning too, as it can still be somewhat Frederick soloed.

Enemy stats ramp up so suddenly when they promote that I imagine it would be quite tricky to deal with unexpectedly. Plus stuff like overusing Frederick, non-Veteran units, has pretty big consequences down the line. There's a lot of exp optimization to do in the earlygame which somewhat requires foreknowledge. And there seem to be way more bosskills when trying to do it efficiently and way less exp in general. Also, the final boss has overwhelmingly ridiculous stats; it's something you should plan for from the beginning. Like, it might be legitimately impossible depending on how exp was allocated.

It's very impressive you're doing an efficient run first time through. I can't imagine trying that at all. Like, the first time I did an efficient run in this game was a HM draft and it was surprisingly hard (no Frederick, but still...). >_>

Edited by XeKr

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I've found that the trick is to use Avatar, Chrom and Frederick as much as possible early-game and then add on units like Panne, Nowi, Tharja, Henry and Libra later.

Although I'm not the best so others can probably use the Shepherds and such Efficiently better than I.

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Well what I should do is just play Lunatic casually first so I have an idea on stats. The biggest curveball on this game compared to most is the different objectives - to an extent. Excluding FE10 for a moment (I'll explain why later), very few objectives revolved around routing enemies. Even if they did (now including FE10), they threw so many different failsafes that it would be difficult to not rout many chapters efficiently. Even though Marcus in FE7, for example, has pretty mediocre Speed and durability after a while, he still can dent a pot of the chapters later on with just base stats alone. The majority of the time you seized a spot, so aside from a couple of detours, the chapter was straightforward - kill boss, then seize. This game throws the curveball, though, almost akin to its lesser cousin Shining Force II Super Mode.

So yeah, I might just do Lunatic casually and see how things work out first. Then at least I know benchmarks and the like.

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Though this site has a few enemy/boss stats, imo it's hard to gauge that kind of stuff relative to your own characters until doing a run yourself. Especially since this game has so many "growth characters" and not really any fail-safes, as you say (Tiki kinda, but still requires some training).

I do think a casual runthrough would help, though it's still very different. What really gets me is starting from around C13, it's pretty much an onslaught of bosskills until C23. It's going from unpromoted stuff to insane 30-40 stat enemies with +8 mt, +20 hit forges really fast. And it’s a rout with super-high enemy density.

Another thing to note is other FE games don't really have a character that levels so insanely fast like Avatar or Morgan, especially considering the exp floor in this game. In other games being a couple levels above the enemy or being promoted quickly diminishes exp to tiny amounts like 4 exp, while in this game Avatar will still get like 15-20 exp despite being overleveled, and Morgan around recruitment time easily gets 100 exp per kill for a while. The snowball effect is pretty crazy.

Buyable Rescue staves certainly don't help matters. >_>

Anyways, here’s Chapter 2.

[spoiler=Chapter 2: 7/18]

So the strategy usually results in a 6 or 7 turn and I make a few decisions to make it less of a 6 turn or death. I just got a bit unlucky once everything was somewhat ironed out, but I’m fine with 7 turns. Though Level ups weren’t great either. :(

Anyways, the only feasible way to clear efficiently is with Frederick. Even if Avatar can tank, her damage output is simply too low to clear quickly. So, the first decision is who Pairs with Frederick. Not Avatar, because we want her to feed her some Veteran kills. Not Sully, because her initial position is very important and she needs to save some of the other units first turn. Vaike is actually a decent option since with +Str levels, Frederick can one-shot Mercs. However, I think my Frederick does not have the Str, it’s unreliable, and moreover, Vaike has no weapon, so no Dual Strike chance (this is a little important as I’ll note later). It turns out Frederick shouldn’t pair with Chrom either, despite doubling Barbs with him and having the best Dual Strike chance from C support and Dual Strike+. Chrom needs a few of his own kills, and is one of the few who can take a hit reliably. Plus, he gives no Def, which can actually matter for Frederick’s survival. This leaves Stahl or Virion and I choose Virion since they support, he’s very accurate, and so Avatar can have Stahl’s Bronze Sword without influencing other stuff. In addition, Stahl's +1 Spd makes it easier for Avatar to not get doubled (my Avatar was solidly average in Spd, but others may not be).

The first priority is to make some precise positioning to survive the first turn and set up a something that can deflect pressure for the subsequent turns. The most threatening initial enemies are the Barb and the Merc to the left. The Merc in particular doubles many characters so he must be dealt with first. Frederick with Virion hits him hard with the Silver Lance. Avatar trades for Stahl’s Bronze Sword, Pairs with him, and they go to finish the Merc if Virion did not Dual Strike (Even if it is dead, they move there, below Frederick). They also trade Frederick the Vulnerary and Elixer that Avatar has. It is here we see that Avatar only has ~65% or ~80% true hit depending on if the Merc has Patience. Vaike pairs with Chrom and they go left into a forest, Chrom in front. Sully and Lissa Pair and head left. Sully drops Lissa near the bottom so Miriel has a safe place to go when she arrives. If both the Dual Strike and Avatar’s attack missed, there’s a final contingency in Chrom. Chrom can counterkill that Merc, and may be able to dodge or Dual Guard an attack from the Merc or Barb. I’d estimate >90% chance of something good working.

If the Merc is already dead, usually the Barb attacks Chrom or Avatar, it doesn’t matter. At this point, Frederick heads up, trying to stay in good terrain if possible. He uses the Silver Lance if there are tons of enemies around and heals with whatever item is more appropriate. Avatar heads down to help out Chrom and whoever is hurt is healed by Lissa Paired with Miriel. It seems that the enemy move order is pretty set. Therefore on enemy phase the Barb usually attacks Chrom which blocks him from the Soldiers so they suicide into Avatar instead. Even though the enemy could kill units if suiciding the Soldiers first, they don’t seem to think of that. I suppose it’s also possible to unequip characters if necessary for more consistency but I didn’t test it that rigorously.

As Frederick continues moving up, he can unequip if he’s left some enemies at low health for Avatar and Chrom to pick off. Regardless, he should be fighting up top by turn 4. Turn 5, Frederick should typically be attacking the Boss with a sword (ideally an Iron Sword, so a Silver Lance hit finishes, regardless of terrain). If positioning works out so Frederick is on a fort or somehow has a bunch of Hp still, he can finish on Turn 6. Otherwise he needs to spend it healing to finish fairly consistently on Turn 7. I suppose there’s a tiny but non-trivial 8 turn chance, plus Frederick can get crit or something but that's always going to be there. Avatar gets whatever kills she can. There are probably various cases to feed more kills, including the boss, to Avatar or Chrom, but I think they’re fairly rare and I didn’t feel like reseting for them.

So 7 turns, though 6 is a possibility with this strat. Exp values can vary wildly depending on how many Dual Strikes were triggered or various random positionings but I have level 2 Chrom and level 7 Avatar. I do wonder if it's worth taking a few more turns to snowball Avatar faster. Oh well...

I’m sure there’s much more optimization to be done on this chapter, particularly if people are sacrificed, but I really just want to move on.

Edited by XeKr

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Actually, I find it hard to snowball Avatar and the like without slowing down, which I would assume you kind of have to. This is also because of Chrom, too, who would like EXP but is likely busy in some instances paired up for +3 Spd.

Rescue does make the game ramp by a lot faster, though. Making it buyable was a poor choice until lategame.

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We shall see I guess. I think one of the more interesting things about FE13 Lunatic is there are noticeable tradeoffs to be done, where taking turns to train earlier can likely payoff in (much) turn shaving later on. It’s very drastic here because of Veteran, and quite hard to optimize. Also there’s tradeoff in terms of mobility vs. durability, where self-healing/super concrete durability may be necessary for reliable clears yet those classes are quite slow moving.

I’m also finding it hard to get the snowball rolling since even +Def Avatar can’t really tank yet without slowing down a bunch (or at least a bit more than I’d like). I suppose small things like getting 3hko'd vs. 2hko'd do help.

The final boss issue is definitely tricky as I don’t think you can train Chrom to be that strong in a reasonable timeframe (unlike FE12 Marth). He can do solid damage to the final boss somewhat reliably even without too many levels, but I’m going to try to see if Lucina can do it in my run. That’s why I’m forgoing Morgan as a combat unit, as I don’t think there’s enough exp to train both. And because Lucina is <3.

Edited by XeKr

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Lucina is a better option, in my opinion. She gives up 9 damage base due to weapon difference, but it's way easier to get her trained because of Veteran. And the DS chance is plenty high with an A-rank support. Are you planning on a ranged Lead unit to get past Grima's Pavise?

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I'm less concerned about the damage issue compared to the accuracy issue. You "only" have to hit for 12 damage 8 times + 3 more damage to kill. And maybe it's even more leniant if you count enemy phase (sacrificing various characters).

Something like Celica's Gale would be ideal, but I'm going for Deliverer instead of Galeforce and not using Morgan, so there's not really any users. I think it's hard to damage Grima with the lead unit in general, anyway. Unless it's Luna Celica's or something.

As for Lucina, I was planning on Lord->Cav->Great Knight. The theory is Aether/Luna makes offense more reliable. High Hp/Def bases + Aether + maybe Dual Guard+ ensures survivability. I am concerned about her stats, particularly Spd and such, however.

Edited by XeKr

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Ahh right, accuracy. 90 avoid is hard to hit, especially if you are the Support unit and can't forge your weapon. I had some trouble getting Lucina to land hits even on my non-LTC Lunatic+ file, because her unmodified HIT was something like 150-ish.

Even with a GK that has SKL and LCK stats maxed, before boosters you only have 157 base HIT on her. You might have to slot some skills or change the final class if you want a reliable Grima clear.

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Hex and Anathema can combine to make Grima's Avoid go down by 25, so I don't think Hit is too big a problem (though it remains an issue). Reliability-wise, I think a slightly bigger (though not really that big) problem is doubling Grima w/o Rally Spectrum.

Griffon Avatar has 10 Spd at base.

+2 from a tonic

+4 from a Rally Spd

+7 from a reclassed Great Lord Lucina

That leaves 27 Spd to be gained, and 25 if the Avatar takes the Speedwing. I did some back-of-the-envelope calcs just now and found that an Avatar w/ 50% Spd growth (which is short-selling, but I wanted to keep the math quick and easy) who gains 52 levels has about a 70% chance of gaining the requisite Spd. So I guess you'll probably want to lean on the Avatar to a larger extent that I did to boost the odds of getting to the 50 Spd threshold.

Edited by Redwall

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Yeah, by that time Lucina's class doesn't really matter, so I might go Hero/Great Lord or something for -1ish damage and +7ish hit. I'll also definitely try to use Anathema/Hex to lower avoid a solid bit. Though I'm not sure if Grima's throne/Ire bonus is already included or not too...

Regardless, Chrom is not getting anywhere near max stats, so he'd be worse off I think.

I anticipate going through Hero for Sol after Griffon (that's also part of why Panne is there, so I still have a flier). That's a bit more Spd, and maybe I'll save Naga's Tear. 5% growth over a bunch of levels is a decent chunk as well. It depends on how a lot of things shake out.

Though I think my Spd is already (barely) below average, xd. It's very possible that since +Def doesn't snowball anywhere near as fast as I expected, that +Spd is better for more reliability. I would love to have Rally Spectrum, but I don't see how to fit it in without other sacrifices.

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The 90 avoid figure doesn't include Ire (45 SPD, 45 LCK = 90 avoid), so you've got another 20 avoid to contend with on top of that, plus the 3 damage penalty.

Lucina might need a laser-scope.

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Can get +10-20 hit from Support, which I think still applies even if she's in the back. Does Outdoor Fighter count? >_>

But yes, certainly an issue.

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I'm fairly sure the support bonuses don't work in the back, given how many resets I had on Grima when using Chrom. Not sure about Outdoor Fighter.

And it would seem I made a mistake in my previous post: GL Lucina gives +9 Spd, and not +7. I guess my reliability concerns can be dismissed.

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That's strange, since they work when adjacent and such, so it's not like Pair Up. I suppose we'll see...

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Can get +10-20 hit from Support, which I think still applies even if she's in the back. Does Outdoor Fighter count? >_>

Can't confirm the Support unit thing, although Endgame does count as outdoors for "Outdoor Fighter", I know that for sure. You may also get Charm to work from Chrom.

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Morgan with 41 strength (capped) as a Griffon Rider can get a total of 66 might while being Lucina's pair up partner:

41 + 17 (forged Brave Axe might) + 2 (Strength +2) + 2 (Strength Tonic) + 4 (Rally Strength) = 66

That means Morgan does 4 damage per round, assuming Pavise activates on every single hit. That's 32 per turn, which is pretty impressive.

Lucina, on the other hand:

36 (Parallel Falchion) + 2 (Tonic) + 4 (Rally) + 8 (A support Morgan bonus) = 50

That's not including her strength, which can vary. But if we assume it's 30, then she has 80 might, which means she can do 15 damage per hit to Grima, and either 7 or 8 with Pavise.

Aether is the trick to beating Grima. With Aether, she does 27 or 28 damage (does this game round up or down) or 13 or 14 damage with Pavise activated, and then another 7 or 8 with Sol.

That isn't even including the Avatar. It should be doable to beat Grima in 2 turns reliably.

I wouldn't worry about not having enough to speed to double the Avatar. Remember this is an efficiency run, so he can take his time training Lucina. Lucina gets a +11 boost in total if Morgan is a Griffon Rider.

Edited by Chiki

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Grima has an 80% chance to activate Pavise (Rightful God), so an all-Pavise round is going to be pretty common (about 40% of the time). The game rounds down fractions always. Don't forget about the +3 DEF from Ire. That changes your math a bit. Morgan would hit for 3 in that scenario, which is kinda meh.

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What's Ire? I tried Googling and checking the Fire Emblem wikia but I couldn't find anything on it except the FE10 skill.

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80 might Lucina, 66 might Morgan vs 53 def Grima (assuming all hits hit and Pavise is activated in all of them): 12 + 12 = 24 per round

With one Aether: 12 + 6 + 6 + 12 = 36 per round.

That's pretty good damage against Grima, and I think with your Avatar + Chrom combo you might be able to one turn him.

Grima doesn't have Aegis, so it'd be smart to use your Avatar. A Celica's Gale Avatar does pretty well because it allows Chrom to attack 4 times as opposed to a mere 2 (though you can use Celica's Gale if you choose, as well, if you're worried about hit). Celica's Gale has 9 might with a max might forge, and the Avatar has 41 magic as a Dark Flier or Valkyrie, so that means you have 50 might without any bonuses. Rally Magic and a Magic Tonic gives you 56 might, and then a Chrom support gives you 58. That means 4 damage per hit with Celica's Gale, which means you 16 damage per round. and then comes Chrom.

I don't know how much strength your Chrom will have, but I'll assume 40. 40 + 4 (Rally) + 2 (Tonic) = 46 might. The Falchion has 45 might with Chrom, so that goes up to 91.

That isn't even including Ignis. I don't know your playthrough plans, but with a strong Chrom and Avatar a one turn is possible.

Edited by Chiki

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While this is “efficiency”, I favor a more stringent metric (expected turn count) than other runs, and so I still currently anticipate 1-2 turning many later maps, as movement, Rescue spam, and reliability allows.

As such, at this point I don’t think there’s enough exp to train both Morgan and Lucina to that extent (from what I understand, you’re suggesting Lucina in front with a maxed Morgan as her support). I expect Chrom to barely get any levels, as well. But that calculation is pretty representative of what I’m anticipating with Avatar + Lucina. Avatar chips a bit of damage with a forged Brave, Lucina doing maybe 15ish per Dual Strike (those don't get halved by Pavise). Panne might be there to chip a bit more.

It’s also pretty hard to double Grima without a +Spd Pair Up, as even the Spd cap + tonic + Rally Speed often isn’t enough. Otherwise +Str Pairs would definitely be good for more damage. Though Great Lord Lucina can maybe do it.

Of course it’s possible to rig Aether or Luna as a failsafe, but I’d prefer to avoid that if possible. Though it might turn out something silly like Lucina attacking with a forged Brave and not her Falchion + 8 Aether/Luna chances + Hero Avatar as support with a forged Brave is more reliable. If Grima is not killed in 1 turn, however, he usually heals back to max. The reliable 2 turn is to get the necessary infrastructure (Anathema, Hex, Charm, etc) to improve the odds. If it's not done in 2 turns it's probably not getting done. >_>

Edited by XeKr

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