Emmeryn's Sacrifice

[Interceptor]

No evidence to what exactly? That it is because of Emmeryn's words that the vast majority of Gangrel's army has deserted him? Because this literally stated in the game. As for the alternate timeline, without Emmeryn's words, the war was implied to be a long one that lasted years instead of what seems like a couple of days in this timeline.

No evidence that the Plegians wouldn't have abandoned Gangrel under different circumstances. In the alternate history, Emm was assassinated, Chrom was badly wounded, and the Fire Emblem was stolen. i.e., things went much differently, and thus it's not a good comparison.

Where exactly did they say so? If you can link me to an interview where they said that specifically, I'll concede. But not if it's somewhere in the game, because you can twist the game's dialogue to mean whatever you want it to.

Oh, just a little bitty interview from the front page of the franchise main site. Here's a link to the relevant section: http://fireemblem.nintendo.com/developer-interview/page3.html

8-4: What about all the characters? How do you determine what their personalities would be like?

Maeda: With all the major characters we have an overall story that we want to tell, and we basically assign characters roles which we feel they'll fit the best. Meanwhile, with the sub-characters who don't figure as much into the main story, we field material from all kinds of different places as we build them. And then having good guys be flawed, or bad guys have some redeeming factors... These are things you'd often see in Fire Emblems from way back.

Amazingly enough, the game actually reflects this. Walhart, Mustafa, Chrom, Lucina... Emm. There aren't all that many flawless characters, and as you noted the Camus tip-of-the-hat was clearly done on purpose.

Actually it supports it, because a poorly written story is more likely to ignore all the holes present in whatever it's trying to do. Awakening's story isn't aimless, it has a path. It's just not very good at staying on that path.

Not unless you can identify which parts of the story are on "The Path", assuming that such a thing even exists, and that it's consistent; if you can't (or it isn't), then the plot holes make it even more difficult to figure out what anyone actually intended to do. More noise makes it harder to find the signal.

Any possibility it's trying to marginalize everyone but Emmeryn?

It doesn't seem likely, because most characters literally took no position on this. Chrom, Lissa, and maybe Phila are the only one who had anything to say about it. Frederick didn't bother to press his original idea, and everyone else was silent on the subject.

I can make the assumption that good = good a lot more safely than good = bad.

But this is a non sequitur, since "flawed" doesn't mean "bad". Nobody is making that comparison (except for you, which should be a red flag that you are out of your tree). It's already been established that there are supposed to be good characters in this game with flaws. Emm as a flawed leader described as "good"; this not only doesn't trip anyone's bullshit alarms, but it actually fits the writer's intentions.

It shows the effect of Emmeryn's sacrifice building up. Instead of going from Sacrifice -> Plegians Desert, it goes from Sacrifice -> Plegians Question their Cause -> Plegians Desert. If anything, I'd argue that makes the story stronger.

No, it shows Emmeryn's sacrifice being the subject of an "I quit, lol j/k I'll stay with you" nonsense conversation. You can have the slow roll of Emm's words complete with uncertainty, without having take-backs and/or elevating the general above her.

Granted, this requires a little deftness on the part of a writer, and these are the same people who gave us Sumia punching Chrom in the face for comic relief.

The alternate timeline also has the Plegia/Ylisse war dragging on for 10+ years. That's plenty of evidence, the game flat-out states what would have happened otherwise. You can't get more evidence than that.

See above response to RJW. The alternate timeline has Emm being killed during the events of Chapter 6, which didn't happen in the "real" timeline (which also has an unstolen Emblem, Chrom unharmed, and Lucina). Emm took the second chance and used it to get herself caught.

Both of them seem to agree that Emmeryn is pretty important, even though Chrom is the one with both Falchion and the Fire Emblem. Why do you think that is?

What purpose would it serve for me to speculate about the motivations of characters? That'd make me no better than the other wishful thinkers in this thread. Never mind that both of those characters have imperfect information. Make a point if you have one, otherwise don't waste my time.

Like I said, we're seeing two totally different things from the same set of events, so we're not going to agree.

And like I said, our stances are not equivalent. The game board is the same, but I'm playing chess while you're playing checkers. I make points, you either ignore them or you go off on some tangent. Look at your response to the simplest of points: that the soldiers have no place in Emm's introductory CG.

I don't care if you agree or not. My coffee is going to taste the same regardless.

Hold on now, back the fuck up. You will have to do better than that.

No, I don't. Chapter 10 (in particular, but some other events prior) establishes a clear secondary reason for Plegians to desert: Gangrel is a murdering scumbag nutcase. The rest is either groundless inference on your part, or utter fantasy. "Who knows?" is a response to the why, not the what. Why didn't the water boil? Could be that the burner wasn't hot enough, but seeing as how someone took it off the stove I can't really say conclusively one way or the other.

I mean, I suppose that someone could argue that the Plegians didn't care about Gangrel's behavior. That would be a hilarious position to take. I think that someone ought to go for it.

In addition to the chanting, there's also "Her words, and her sacrifice, have made her a folk hero of sorts."

"Of sorts"... I've always liked this phrasing from Frederick, since "of sorts" generally means that it's a lesser version of the real thing. Emm is a folk hero... but not really. She's "good enough".

Should have just chopped the last two words off that sentence if they wanted to make a more forceful point.

[FrostyFireMage]

It's sad that this topic has more thought put into it than the entire storyline of Awakening.

[RJWalker]

No evidence that the Plegians wouldn't have abandoned Gangrel under different circumstances. In the alternate history, Emm was assassinated, Chrom was badly wounded, and the Fire Emblem was stolen. i.e., things went much differently, and thus it's not a good comparison.

Except there is evidence that the Plegians didn't abandon Gangrel. The alternate future is the evidence whether you'd admit it or not. The Plegians are literally chanting her name as they abandon Gangrel. The evidence that her sacrifice is the reason could not be any clearer. Even you ought to get it. Different cicumstances that exist in the alternate future are infact the evidence. A 10+ year war ends in a couple of days due to her actions. This undeniable as it is stated in the game. The Plegians weren't going to abandon Gangrel without Emmeryn's sacrifice.

The alternate future is in fact a very good comparison because the turning point is Emmeryn's assassination. The vast majority of differences between the two timelines stem from Emmeryn living at least a little bit longer. The remaining differences seem to be caused by Robin meeting Chrom under unstated by clearly different circumstances.

[Interceptor]

It's sad that this topic has more thought put into it than the entire storyline of Awakening.

And most of us aren't getting paid for it.

Except there is evidence that the Plegians didn't abandon Gangrel. The alternate future is the evidence whether you'd admit it or not.

The alternative future has Ylisse in a much weaker position. Emm had been assassinated, Chrom was incapacitated, Fire Emblem was stolen, etc. Lucina also wasn't around. It's a different scenario entirely. As the game's story shows, having Emm alive and Chrom able to lead an army does actually make a difference.

The Plegians weren't going to abandon Gangrel without Emmeryn's sacrifice.

Speculative, unproven. We have a situation where they did, and we have one where Emm died. There's no scenario where Emm is alive, but doesn't sacrifice herself.

[Torva]

Holy sh*t, this topic is still going on? Are we really still talking about Emmeryn's stupid sacrifise?? It didn't really make a difference, because she comes back.