Interest Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 (edited) Just gonna pose a quick question out of curiosity's sake. I think I'm in the minority, but am I seriously the only one of the veterans here actually invested in casual mode and actually have fun with it?Honestly, I kind of want to for the luls just so I can recklessly suicide my units. I haven't yet though. Edited February 14, 2015 by Interest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vashiane Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 You didn't answer the question. The goal is to get them to appreciate the same thing as me. When developing a game, I have to make decisions that will affect the player's choice and steer them towards the one I want them to make. Same with any work of art and interpretation you want them to get from it. But why would you do that? I mean, if someone sees something or does something the same way you do, that's great, but that's the thing about art. It's up to different interpretations, seen in different ways through the eyes of the very different people who view it. Why would you include the option of choice if you want the person to pick a specific thing? Isn't that one of the complaints voiced about Awakening? That no matter what choice you made in the game, you didn't actually affect the story? That's the same case here, if you didn't think there was any benefit to giving a choice, why give the choice then? I think you're missing the point. No one's calling anyone else less of the player, and that was never really a point of contention. That's kinda how some of those earlier posts came off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Protagonist Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 That's kinda how some of those earlier posts came off. Or perhaps people presumed the unreasonable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omega zero Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 As a general point, it is quite possible to create an art form that is purposefully open to interpretation and customization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magical Glace Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Can we go back to discussing incentives to get more people to play Classic? Permadeath is key in FE, removin it with no real drawback for doing so is stupid imo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowofchaos Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 (edited) removin it with no real drawback for doing so is stupid imoNo offense glac, but this is the crap that started the heated posts in the first place.Why is it so important to "appreciate FE" the way it was meant to? The existence of the mode means people will play it with a different mindset and not as hardcore. What is so bad about not having the same experience as you veterans? Edited February 14, 2015 by shadowofchaos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magical Glace Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 No offense glac, but this is the crap that started the heated posts in the first place.It was? I thought it was more people just wanting it gone altogether. I don't mind it staying, so long as I can get a rl friend of mine to play Classic at some point. He got into the series through FE13, which is nice and all I tell him to try FE6 but, but I want him to be able to try to learn about a feature that made me love FE10 when I played that. I don't mind if he ends up disliking it... so long as he give it a shot. Incentives for Classic would help me with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makaze Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 (edited) But why would you do that? I mean, if someone sees something or does something the same way you do, that's great, but that's the thing about art. It's up to different interpretations, seen in different ways through the eyes of the very different people who view it. Why would you include the option of choice if you want the person to pick a specific thing? Isn't that one of the complaints voiced about Awakening? That no matter what choice you made in the game, you didn't actually affect the story? That's the same case here, if you didn't think there was any benefit to giving a choice, why give the choice then? Because artistic expression isn't just about pure enjoyment. Imagine a painter. A painter aims to elicit specific emotions and impressions from their audience. Not only do they want others to appreciate their work, but they want others to appreciate their intention and expression. Imagine a work that is supposed to be about the evils of consumerism and a bunch of young people like it because they think it looks cool or has nice colors. The artist isn't going to connect with those kids. They are going to connect with those who understand what the artist wanted and appreciate it for the artist's intention. You would give the option of choice for all kinds of reasons. For one, people feel better when they think they came to a conclusion on their own. A lot of the time people are more receptive to an idea if they feel that they chose it from a selection of other options. Giving people options is a powerful manipulative tactic. One of my favourite reasons for giving options is to demonstrate the fact that choice is an illusion and send that message in itself. Consider the inclusion of luck and RNG in Fire Emblem. In reality there is no luck involved, but you still get upset because you personally don't know how to predict the outcome. In that case, why include RNG at all? Why not make it pure logic and rules like Chess? Because despite luck being an illusion, people enjoy it. The question is, does adding the option help you with your artistic expression, or does it enable people to take their own meaning that you do not empathize with? If it's the latter, then adding the choice would be detrimental to your goals. That is assuming the goal is artistic expression. If it's making money, then pure fanservice is the way to go. To hell with your inspiration and connection to fans. Hello, Awakening. Personally, there are some games where I have a problem with the linear flow, but I generally like the story anyway if it's good. There are a lot of flaws with Awakening, but I wouldn't say this is one of them. Awakening's flaws in story were with the actual content (or lack of expansion on content), not the inability to affect outcomes. Edited February 14, 2015 by Makaze Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awakener_ Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Can we go back to discussing incentives to get more people to play Classic?Permadeath is key in FE, removin it with no real drawback for doing so is stupid imo The incentives is that if the newcomers realized that if casual is easy for them then they can try out classic. But if they are comfortable with casual because they don't want to deal with that 1 percent enemy crit BS or that 90 percents hit rate miss BS then IS shouldn't be punishing them for doing so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Geek Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 (edited) You lost me when you started claiming FE was art. As for incentives to play Classic, how about a Golden (or Best) Ending which is only accessible through playing Classic (kind of like FE6's Golden Ending which required you to unlock and complete all the Gaiden chapters) Edited February 14, 2015 by The Geek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowofchaos Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 (edited) I don't mind it staying, so long as I can get a rl friend of mine to play Classic at some point. He got into the series through FE13, which is nice and all I tell him to try FE6 but, but I want him to be able to try to learn about a feature that made me love FE10 when I played that. I don't mind if he ends up disliking it... so long as he give it a shot. Incentives for Classic would help me with that. The thing is... what if they don't want to try classic? Like at all? Would you respect that? Edited February 14, 2015 by shadowofchaos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makaze Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 (edited) As a general point, it is quite possible to create an art form that is purposefully open to interpretation and customization. That depends. If it doesn't have a definite form, or limits to the interpretation, then I can't call it art, or meaningful, personally. If every single statement about a work is true, then none of the statements about the work are true. Artists can intend multiple interpretations, but if it comes down to whether the artist or the audience determines meaning, I'd say that the artist who created it determines its true meaning, not the audience. Edited February 14, 2015 by Makaze Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magical Glace Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 (edited) The incentives is that if the newcomers realized that if casual is easy for them then they can try out classic. But if they are comfortable with casual because they don't want to deal with that 1 percent enemy crit BS or that 90 percents hit rate miss BS then IS shouldn't be punishing them for doing so.That's not a very good incentive... not gonna lie. Right now there are Death quotes being Classic exclusive by nature, and that's about it. Those can be found online easily There should be something you can do in classic but not casual, extra maps, etc. Kinda like how you can't get Extra Stages from Easy in Touhou (or EoSD Stage 6 just not existing on Easy). Edit: The thing is... what if they don't want to try classic? Like at all? Would you respect that?I just kinda feel like I wasted a ton of effort trying to coax him and two others into the series (one of whom was actually Magyars) for around five years (ie as long as I knew them) I honestly have a lot o faith he can manage hard/classic after playing since the Holiday following FE13's NA release. ...on the other hand, he runs a Raichu with three Electric type attacks then acts confused when I send a Surf/Protect/Wish/Toxic Vaporeon on it and it destroys him. Edited February 14, 2015 by Glaceon Mage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feplus Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Curious about this luck = illusion point. What do you mean by that? There's plenty of real luck involved, particularly with one-RN titles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Odinson Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 (edited) I hope you all realise that games (with exception of some indie titles) are also an industry and just doing things like you would do with art doesn't exactly apply everywhere; I think games can be artful, since it's a combination of artistic elements, but in this case, it is also a product. As a professional artist, the art I put out for work and the art I put out for myself are two drastically different things. I have to consider audiences and actually try to sell a thing and make it work for the product I'm working on when I make art for work, but I can do whatever the fuck I want within my abilities when I art for myself. I don't need to care if the latter have to appeal to anyone but myself and my own visions, because I'm not trying to sell it. in this case having an extra option while still having the original vision (I admit I didn't read every page of a 10 page thread) in as an option that many users still enjoy and play is hardly the worst that could happen to one's original visions since, you know, it's still there There are some other uses I found nice for casual too; Going for 100% support unlock, for example Edited February 14, 2015 by Thor Odinson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makaze Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 (edited) Curious about this luck = illusion point. What do you mean by that? There's plenty of real luck involved, particularly with one-RN titles. The numbers that are generated are not truly random. If you knew the algorithm you could perfectly predict every single roll in the game. This process gets easier the further back you go due to less complex RNG methods. There are some other uses I found nice for casual too; Going for 100% support unlock, for example What is different about this compared to Classic mode? Edited February 14, 2015 by Makaze Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magical Glace Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 The numbers that are generated are not truly random. If you knew the algorithm you could perfectly predict every single roll in the game. This process gets easier the further back you go due to less complex RNG methods. What is different about this compared to Classic mode? Map save spam can be abused to complete the log Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vashiane Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 You lost me when you started claiming FE was art. As for incentives to play Classic, how about a Golden (or Best) Ending which is only accessible through playing Classic (kind of like FE6's Golden Ending which required you to unlock and complete all the Gaiden chapters) It's a creative medium. Because artistic expression isn't just about pure enjoyment. Imagine a painter. A painter aims to elicit specific emotions and impressions from their audience. Not only do they want others to appreciate their work, but they want others to appreciate their intention and expression. Imagine a work that is supposed to be about the evils of consumerism and a bunch of young people like it because they think it looks cool or has nice colors. The artist isn't going to connect with those kids. They are going to connect with those who understand what the artist wanted and appreciate it for the artist's intention. You would give the option of choice for all kinds of reasons. For one, people feel better when they think they came to a conclusion on their own. A lot of the time people are more receptive to an idea if they feel that they chose it from a selection of other options. Giving people options is a powerful manipulative tactic. One of my favourite reasons for giving options is to demonstrate the fact that choice is an illusion and send that message in itself. Consider the inclusion of luck and RNG in Fire Emblem. In reality there is no luck involved, but you still get upset because you personally don't know how to predict the outcome. In that case, why include RNG at all? Why not make it pure logic and rules like Chess? Because despite luck being an illusion, people enjoy it. The question is, does adding the option help you with your artistic expression, or does it enable people to take their own meaning that you do not empathize with? If it's the latter, then adding the choice would be detrimental to your goals. That is assuming the goal is artistic expression. If it's making money, then pure fanservice is the way to go. To hell with your inspiration and connection to fans. Hello, Awakening. Personally, there are some games where I have a problem with the linear flow, but I generally like the story anyway if it's good. There are a lot of flaws with Awakening, but I wouldn't say this is one of them. Awakening's flaws in story were with the actual content (or lack of expansion on content), not the inability to affect outcomes. Weeeeeeee're probably just gonna have to agree to disagree at this point. Because as long as someone enjoys and appreciates my work, I don't really care what they took from it. I entertained someone. I brightened their day. That's all I really need. But I'm getting too subjective here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makaze Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Map save spam can be abused to complete the log What do you by "Map save spam"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowofchaos Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 (edited) What is different about this compared to Classic mode?Having a different save on a battle save to go back to when you are marrying a 2nd gen to get supports with Morgan when you don't have the luxury of a chapter save file if they're all taken.Making sure you ONLY use a bookmark to save when getting all supports foe that marriage is a PAIN. Edited February 14, 2015 by shadowofchaos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Odinson Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 What is different about this compared to Classic mode? Casual has 2 extra battle saves you can use and when I'm support unlocking I don't really feel like paying attention to the map, so sometimes yes, I will die and in casual, I don't have to reset Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makaze Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Oh. I didn't even know that existed. I guess it really is casual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awakener_ Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 (edited) What is different about this compared to Classic mode?Classic, a death will either led to player continue on if they want (losing that unit's support doing so) to keep the progress or reset but discarding all the progressive made during that map. Casual, just farm supports all day long by pairing up your couples and sending them into the hordes of enemies, if one unit die then just finish the battle and unit will be back for the next battle.Edit: And map save too! Holy shit I completely forgotten that feature existed in that support grinding file. Ah, I can save even more time using that. Just recently I wonder wtf is that two blank files beneath the top screen save file. Edited February 14, 2015 by Awakener_ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkSage764 Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Yes. One of the reasons Awakening did so well was because it had casual mode for CASUAL gamers. It wouldn't make sense for Intelligent Systems to take away the very mode that made the game much more accessible for a lot of people. I personally enjoyed casual, I prefer Classic, but it was nice to not have to worry about my units for a change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Protagonist Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 One of the reasons Awakening did so well was because it had casual mode for CASUAL gamers. I doubt that, actually. I think it was probably the other new aspects of the game, like the waifu simulator excuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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