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ruadath

3 turn clear of Chapter 14 in HHM?

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All of the LTC playthroughs I see of Chapter 14 in HHM (General Horace, Espinosa, lapogne) seem to take 4 turns to clear the chapter, but I believe that it should be possible to do in 3 turns. The manner in which one should go about this would be to kill Erik on EP2 (most likely with Silver Lance!Marcus; Wolf Beil!Hector can work too if he crits or is fast enough, but mine isn't), which prevents the second brigand and pirate from spawning. I believe that this should allow for the chapter to be completed in 3 turns, and I think I've seen someone do it on EHM, which means it should be possible here...

As a quick note, I should add that Marcus either should have already or needs to get a speed proc after killing Erik so that he is fast enough to double the quicker cavs and the nomad in the chapter.

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killing this bandit is impossible by turn 3

Interesting point... but with some unwieldly AI manipulation (killing enemy units in the correct order) to force the the brigands to move correctly, it looks like this:

rCkVCez.png

where the brigand is now in a position to get killed on the enemy phase if Erk had advanced fully on the 2 turns when he can. Granted this is quite difficult though, especially getting Erk to survive the onslaught of enemies he faces from the northern half of the map (including the myrmidon who doubles him).

EDIT: The "AI manipulation," basically just means ensuring that the enemy armored knight doesn't get killed until EP2 (and killing the northern archer on turn 1).

Edited by ruadath

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Hmm, for whatever reason the Brigand that spawns on turn 2 moves before the brigand does on turn 1 for me, (and the inital brigand is blocking the south square he needs to move to), and to be quite honest it makes very little sense that the AI is behaving that way, since the second brigand's AI should always move before the first's.

Regardless Erk would need to crit the myrmidon, a cavalier, and 2 brigands at bad to mediocre hitrates (while somehow surviving). You could theoretically have Lowen pass Hector or someone to Marcus on turn 3 and have Marcus move north to kill the Brigands (assuming they move in the correct order) while Hector/whoever kills the cavaliers (Marcus would have to kill the nomad prior to this unless you rig a handaxe crit which is something you're not above).

Edited by General Horace

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Hmm, for whatever reason the Brigand that spawns on turn 2 moves before the brigand does on turn 1 for me, (and the inital brigand is blocking the south square he needs to move to), and to be quite honest it makes very little sense that the AI is behaving that way, since the second brigand's AI should always move before the first's.

I refer you to the following topic for a coherent explanation of what is going on; I was also very confused by this when I encountered this behavior in Chapter 9 of LHM.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=56829

Unlike what you might expect, the AI "fills up" the slots of enemy units who have been killed with the reinforcement data, so the move order is not as straightforward as you might naively expect. However, as I mentioned in an edit to the previous post, killing the northern archer on PP1 and not killing the armored knight until EP2 should ensure that you are OK regarding this matter.

Regardless Erk would need to crit the myrmidon, a cavalier, and 2 brigands at bad to mediocre hitrates (while somehow surviving). You could theoretically have Lowen pass Hector or someone to Marcus on turn 3 and have Marcus move north to kill the Brigands (assuming they move in the correct order) while Hector/whoever kills the cavaliers (Marcus would have to kill the nomad prior to this unless you rig a handaxe crit which is something you're not above).

As long as you can get Erk to dodge one of the myrmidon's attacks, you should be OK; assuming he doesn't crit-kill the myrmidon, he doesn't get attacked by the cav, which will then probably suicide on Marcus. After that, if you can get Lowen (or someone else, but most likely Lowen) around in time to finish off the myrmidon, Erk can deal with the final two brigands without a terrible amount of RNG manipulation.

Marcus obviously has to take out the enemies on the lower half of the map with his Javelin. I wonder how to deal with the southern cavs... perhaps Lowen/Marcus can rescue drop Hector on turn 1 into position to get there by turn 3?

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Guy can probably just walk down and kill the cavs with the KE, he's the best at killing the Pirates too anyway.

Erk needs to crit the second bandit who attacks from a forest tile at 61 hit and 8 crit, and needs to dodge at least one of two 76's, then 3 68's in a row all while hitting a 53, and 3 61's. Sounds like a lot of RNG abuse to me.

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Perhaps, but it's not impossible... one might have said something similar about Hector's chances charging into Chapter 12, dodging lots of attacks and making a couple of 30% hits in addition to a crit, but it turned out to be doable.

3 68's in a row all while hitting a 53, and 3 61's. Sounds like a lot of RNG abuse to me.

I'm slightly confused, what are these for? I imagine the 53 is the myrmidon and the 68s are for the first brigand... what are the 61s?

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He has to hit 3 61's in a row on the brigands (or two hits and two crits which is way less likely). not dodge, my bad.

In a more understandable format he has to:

Dodge one of two 76's while hitting a 53 on turn 2 EP, then on turn 3 player phase, he has to hit a 61 while dodging a 68, and on turn 3 enemy phase he has to dodge two 68's and hit two 61's critting on the second one.

Edited by General Horace

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Perhaps, but it's not impossible... one might have said something similar about Hector's chances charging into Chapter 12, dodging lots of attacks and making a couple of 30% hits in addition to a crit, but it turned out to be doable.

well no shit, almost anything with the GBA RNG is doable. doable doesn't mean reliable.

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well no shit, almost anything with the GBA RNG is doable. doable doesn't mean reliable.

Doable = without ridiculous RNG burns. I think I cleared Chapter 12 with a total of like 5 RNs burned.

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that still doesn't mean reliable. "doability" has zero value within the context of GBAFE. a reliable strategy may require more RN burns than a less reliable strategy because the initial RN seed may not be favorable for a reliable strategy.

i'll bet you that i've burned more RNs to rig a killer weapon crit than you've burned for the entirety of chapter 12; whether a strategy is doable or not by your standards is totally arbitrary. why don't you learn how to use tools to help you manipulate insanely low% events? it'll save you time and you won't be limited by arbitrary standards.

Edited by dondon151

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i'll bet you that i've burned more RNs to rig a killer weapon crit than you've burned for the entirety of chapter 12; whether a strategy is doable or not by your standards is totally arbitrary. why don't you learn how to use tools to help you manipulate insanely low% events? it'll save you time and you won't be limited by arbitrary standards.

I already know how to use those tools; it's just that I find it more interesting and fulfilling to develop strategies that take advantage of the way the RNG is seeded in the GBA games than to arbitrarily crit-kill every enemy that I feel like. IMO, its (one of the many) thing(s) that makes the GBA series more "fun" than the DS games (and to some extent, RD EM/NM as well), for example, where you can pretty much rig a crit, dodge, etc. whatever and whenever you want just by using a map save.

The GBA RNG provides a useful context under which you can evaluate reliability. If, for example, a chapter was always seeded such that a 12% hit, 2% critical would go through, would you call it unreliable to take advantage of it? That's my perspective on the issue.

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You do realise that if you want to use the fixed RNG as a constraint of reliability, everything is 100% reliable or 0% reliable because every action is already set to either be a success or a failure by the viewable completely seeded RN string? In which case, burning 100 RNs to get the desired outcome is exactly as reliable as burning 20 RNs to get the desired outcome. They're both 100% or 0%. There is no definition of reliability that is somehow changed by the AMOUNT of RNs burned if the exact same actions always guarantee the exact same results. That is the definition of reliable.

This is the pitfall you fall into when you start ignoring what the game actually lists as chances in terms of factoring in reliability of strategies. It follows that if you don't care what the game says about chances, there is no reason NOT to rig 1% crits constantly other than the effort required. It only makes sense to avoid such things if you start factoring in what the game says about them, especially if you don't need those crits.

Edited by Irysa

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The most popular view of reliability seems to be of the whether it looks reliable variety. If you double and need one crit with a killer weapon, people often go "oh yeah, that would've crit'd anyway".

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You do realise that if you want to use the fixed RNG as a constraint of reliability, everything is 100% reliable or 0% reliable because every action is already set to either be a success or a failure by the viewable completely seeded RN string? In which case, burning 100 RNs to get the desired outcome is exactly as reliable as burning 20 RNs to get the desired outcome. They're both 100% or 0%. There is no definition of reliability that is somehow changed by the AMOUNT of RNs burned if the exact same actions always guarantee the exact same results. That is the definition of reliable.

Yes, of course I realize that, but I like my (GBAFE) videos to have the following two properties:

1) pleasant to watch: no one wants to see you waste a couple minutes burning RNs for a crit. You could use TAS tools to get rid of this but then you would violate:

2) easy to replicate: if you take a look at any of my videos (again for GBAFE) you would find the strates extremely easy to replicate just by following along, even on console. At no point do you have to count out 33 RNs and then follow along with a certain action or something like that.

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How about just buffing up Erk during Lyn's story? If you want the lowest turncounts possible in Chapters 17 and 19 you're gonna need a second Paladin anyway which can only be achieved through playing LHM.

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That takes "more turns" overall. I wanted to do this without LHM to minimize the final turncount you get at the end of the game. Plus I think this has been somewhat less explored, so it will be more fun, maybe?

EDIT: In all honestly, I'm not even certain that I will incorporate this strategy into my playthrough, because it loses quite a fair amount of EXP at the expense of saving 1 turn. I'm not sure whether or not it is worth it. I just wanted to point it out for general LTC knowledge purposes.

Edited by ruadath

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Yes, of course I realize that, but I like my (GBAFE) videos to have the following two properties:

1) pleasant to watch: no one wants to see you waste a couple minutes burning RNs for a crit. You could use TAS tools to get rid of this but then you would violate:

2) easy to replicate: if you take a look at any of my videos (again for GBAFE) you would find the strates extremely easy to replicate just by following along, even on console. At no point do you have to count out 33 RNs and then follow along with a certain action or something like that.

Burning something like 33 RNs is easy though, you only have to cursor waggle a mounted unit (prefferably a flier) about 3 or 4 times. That's definitely easy to replicate.

When you start getting into burning hundreds of RNs, then yes, it becomes hard to replicate, but at that point you're probably going for strats that nobody is really interested in replicating anyway. The idea is to demonstrate crazy strategies to get absoloute min TCs, which probably involves really low odds. Nobody's really interested in replicating that stuff so much as knowing its "legit" and not cheated. That's pretty much why I list the RN burns and directions and amounts needed along with the scripts I use for my on hiatus FE6 LTC (that's not 100% dead yet, I promise).

Edited by Irysa

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A quick update here: this might be slightly less feasible (or at least more Marcus reliant) than I imagined, because in addition to the central armored knight, you also have to avoid killing the northern two of the central soldiers on player phase 1, which limits how far you can advance your troops forward.

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Did you try to rescue NPC Erk on turn 2 and drop him off on turn 3 so he's able to kill the brigand on NPC phase 3?

Lowen can stand 2L of the upper village if he fullmoves twice, and thus stay out of enemy range. The bottom village area can be EP routed by Eliwood or someone if you remove the archer on EP2 with Marcus.

Edited by Gradivus.

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Did you try to rescue NPC Erk on turn 2 and drop him off on turn 3 so he's able to kill the brigand on NPC phase 3?

Lowen can stand next 2L of the upper village if he fullmoves twice, and thus stay out of enemy range. The bottom village area can be EP routed by Eliwood or someone if you remove the archer on EP2 with Marcus.

Hm, this is a good idea. I haven't actually tried implement any of these strategies yet, really; been busy working on my other playthroughs. That's a really great idea about making use of Lowen/NPC!Erk though...

I think Guy has to clear the bottom area, since he has to kill cavs on EP3, and the only reasonable way to do so is Killing Edge crits (plus Guy doubles them, I think, so he gets 2 chances) and remember that we also have to rig Erk's crit on the same phase.

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Just saying that the 3-turn without recruiting Erk makes Priscilla impossible to recruit, idk how much you care to.

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Just saying that the 3-turn without recruiting Erk makes Priscilla impossible to recruit, idk how much you care to.

But perhaps it's possible to do the following: move Lowen next to Erk on turn 1, Serra recruit him on turn 2, Lowen rescue-moves with Erk, and then drops him off on turn 3?

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I think you need the attack after the EP since the Brigand can't reach Erk, but I forgot if Brigands can move one or two tiles on peaks (I think one?), and if it's the former, I'm sure you need him to have NPC status on turn 3.

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Is it impossible to reset Erk's AI in vanilla HHM, like you would in LM? IIRC, he doesn't spawn until the chapters begins, but if he spawns before the chapter begins, you could theoretically reset it. Or does he have to be considered a playable unit first?

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