Unit Practicality Thread

[Ownagepuffs]

Sounds good. There are like 0 effective damage enemies in Hosh anyway so dual weakness doesn't matter. The only thing I wonder is how Avatar is operating pre-Dark Knight. Are you gonna switch to Dark Mage to build tome rank? But that could offset strength. Will you stay as a Prince to keep working on swords rank/build strength? Seems good since Avatar will have a good Str and Mag growth, but then you'll enter Dark Knight with E tomes.

[Luninareph]

Sounds good. There are like 0 effective damage enemies in Hosh anyway so dual weakness doesn't matter. The only thing I wonder is how Avatar is operating pre-Dark Knight. Are you gonna switch to Dark Mage to build tome rank? But that could offset strength. Will you stay as a Prince to keep working on swords rank/build strength? Seems good since Avatar will have a good Str and Mag growth, but then you'll enter Dark Knight with E tomes.

To be fair, Nohr Prince/ss has +15% STR growth, and Dark Mage has +10%. You probably wouldn't offset your STR very much at all.

[astrophys]

Compacted rambling section into spoiler tags below

I was thinking probably closer to the Nohr Prince --> Promote --> Dark Knight route over the Nohr Prince --> Dark Mage --> Dark Knight route.

I was imagining taking +MAG/-LCK, despite the loss to both offensive stats; I could also take -DEF, but was concerned that in Fates that might be a bit too costly ["low HP Emblem" and all and then making myself even more fragile]. And speaking to other players, they had also encouraged +MAG/-LCK.

I understand that I'd have personal growths of 40% STR and 45% MAG this way (+MAG/-LCK), which works out to 55% growths in both stats as a Nohr Prince. If I went +MAG/-DEF, I'd have 60% growths in each stat [on average, +0.95 more STR/LCK by 20/0, increasing to +1.9 by 20/20, not that I'd reach that high, but at the cost of 2.9 DEF by 20/0 and 4.8 DEF by 20/20; all figures are averages]. I understand that there's a chapter 4 Goddess Icon that could offset the early -LCK penalty.

Anyways, 7 base STR/MAG (thanks to asset +3 bonus) and 55% growths gets me to 17.45 STR/MAG on average at 20/0. Promotion and subsequent Dark Knight class change would give me +1STR and +3 MAG relative to Nohr Prince, bringing me to 18.45 STR and 20.45 MAG, on average.

At that point, I'd have a 60% STR growth and a 55% MAG growth.

Predicted 20/15 STR would be 26.85; Predicted 20/15 MAG would be 28.15 MAG. (If I took -DEF, these values would be +1.65 higher instead).

I suppose I could use an Arms Scroll on the Avatar, although perhaps that's wasteful.

EDIT: Actually, the prior poster (who beat me to posting) raises a good point… although Dark Mage's overall stat growths are lower too by a notable margin: 55% Dark Mage growths vs. 85% Nohr Prince growths; on average, 0.3 stat points difference per level stayed in the class.

2nd Addendum: Hm… considering a hypothetical 1/0 -> 10/0 Nohr Prince (not sure which level I should assume for the first 2nd seal), 10/0 --> 20/0 Dark Mage, promote to Dark Knight, 20/0 --> 20/15 Dark Knight, this is the average stats that a +MAG/-LCK Avatar would end up with:

39.3 HP, 26.35 STR, 29.15 MAG, 23.8 SKL, 25.1 SPD, 13.85 LCK, 24.05 DEF, 18.05 RES

Leveling this way, as pointed out, would let me get the Avatar a better tome rank… as for sword rank, he has Yato (which is probably most of what he needs, although he probably wants to get B (the highest Dark Knight can go) for using it later on.

Luck is pretty terrible, but there are at least two Goddess Icons from the chapters that I know of, including a CH 4 one… if I balanced out the flaw with Icons, I'd get 21.85 LCK

If I did -DEF instead for some reason (becoming much more of a "squishy wizard"), the -5% STR, -5% MAG, -20% LCK, -2 starting luck from the flaw would be replaced with -5% LCK, -10% DEF, -5% RES, -1 starting DEF. Over 33 levels (to 20/15), these would change the stat averages to:

39.3 HP, 28 STR, 30.8 MAG, 23.8 SKL, 25.1 SPD, 20.8 LCK, 19.75 DEF, 16.4 RES

In both cases, Yato's possession bonus would offer +4 STR and +4 SPD, and when equipped +1 SPD and -1DEF/RES.

The Hoshido boss (according to my sources) seems to have 61 ATK in Hard and 66 ATK in Lunatic.

39+18 (do to Yato) = 57, so the averages wouldn't predict survival on Hard with -DEF against the boss, except with an HP tonic (1 HP survival), and Lunatic would need more.

With -LCK, 39+23 (post Yato) is 62, so they'd survive the 61 ATK from the Hard Final boss with 1 HP (on average), while an HP tonic would be needed (on average) to survive the Lunatic final boss. This is ignoring pair-up bonuses from class bonuses and personal bonuses.

Edited December 2, 2015 by astrophys

[Tooru]

Falcon Warrior gives +3 Spd, and the character may give some.

But if the Falcon Warrior is out of pairing, Rally Speed gives +4 Spd and not only to Avatar.

Especially when the Falcon Warrior is Sakura/Hinoka, if she is not a supporter in pairing, she also gives +2 (Def+Res)/(Str+Mag) and not only to Avatar.

If 8-movement is not enough for you: pair up->move->apart.

Now you go further than 9-movement.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Tooru

[astrophys]

You raise a very good point….

You are absolutely correct that Rally Speed exists. Of course, a Pegasus pair-up and a different Pegasus doing Rally Speed exists, so these are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

You are also totally correct about Hinoka/Sakura and their aura effects. As it happens, the Pegasus I specifically had in mind was Matoi, so Hinoka and Sakura would be assumed to be free in my example. But if I was planning on Hinoka, etc., then I'd have to be concerned about losing their aura.

You raise a good point about the movement. That would get you even further; you're absolutely right.

You could even move your unit, pair-up with a target unit, move that unit, switch, and then drop off the original unit.

8 + 9 +1 = 18 spaces, if I count correctly.

[Wayward Alchemist]

So what would be the best class for Magic Corrin? Basara and Dark Flier seem good for bulk and speed respectively but you can't use Yato...

[astrophys]

To my knowledge, the only magical tome classes that let you use Yato are Dark Blood (Conquest/Revelation only), Dark Knight, and Grandmaster (both DLC & male only).

Otherwise, you either have to choose Yato or tomes.

Of course, if you relax the requirement of tomes, you can get away with a lot more if you're using Levin Swords, Shock Sticks, etc. Levin Swords are Conquest/Revelation; Shock Sticks are Birthright/Revelation. etc.

Edited December 4, 2015 by astrophys

[Ownagepuffs]

So what would be the best class for Magic Corrin? Basara and Dark Flier seem good for bulk and speed respectively but you can't use Yato...

Spellcaster is very strong, Astro's Dark Knight build looks good too. Dark Flier gets really cheesy really fast. Dark Blood isn't half bad, though it could be better. At least draconic curse is amazing.

[astrophys]

Discussion of Dark Knights follows (in spoiler box)

As a disclaimer, I don't have the game, so I don't have any practical experience with the actual execution of the Dark Knight build. Maybe its good, maybe its worse than I thought.

Assuming +MAG/-LCK [you could take -DEF for even more offense, but given survivability thresholds I don't think its necessarily worth it]

If Ownagepuffs or anyone else knows, what's a reasonable level for the Avatar to be at by the time he gets the first seal (if he chooses to use it)? In other words, what's the earliest time that you can switch into your secondary? This determines how many levels you can get in the secondary (and build tome rank) if you want to go to a tome class early.

In any event, I might guess it would be a good idea to wait until level 10 anyways so that you at least grab Dragon's Fang.

Here are 20/15 stat average predictions [chosen because it seems like a reasonable endgame level] if you go one of two routes:

1. Nohr Prince --> Dark Mage at 10 (tome rank) -> Promote to Dark Knight

2. Nohr Prince --> Promote --> Seal over to Dark Knight 1

Basically, these boil down to:

1. 9 levels as Nohr Prince, 10 levels as Dark Mage, 14 levels as Dark Knight

2. 19 levels as Nohr Prince, 14 levels as Dark Knight

Either way, +MAG/-LCK base stats:

19 HP, 7 Str, 7 Mag, 7 Skl, 6 Spd, 3 Lck, 6 Def, 2 Res, 5 Move

And these are the outcomes for 20.15, both on its own and with the upgraded form of the Yato in your inventory, unequipped [if equipped, add +1 SPD, -1 Def, -1 Res].

Results, option #1 (spend time as Dark Mage to build tome rank, lose sword access for 10 levels):

Level 20/15: 39.3 HP, 26.35 Str, 29.15 Mag, 23.8 Skl, 25.1 Spd, 13.85 Lck, 24.05 Def, 18.05 Res

w/Birthright Yato: 39.3 HP, 30.35 Str, 29.15 Mag, 23.8 Skl, 29.1 Spd, 13.85 Lck, 24.05 Def, 18.05 Res

w/Conquest Yato: 39.3 HP, 26.35 Str, 29.15 Mag, 23.8 Skl, 25.1 Spd, 13.85 Lck, 28.05 Def, 22.05 Res

w/Revelation Yato: 39.3 HP, 30.35 Str, 29.15 Mag, 23.8 Skl, 29.1 Spd, 13.85 Lck, 28.05 Def, 22.05 Res

Results, option #2 (never temporariliy lose ability to use swords):

Level 20/15: 40.8 HP, 26.85 Str, 28.15 Mag, 24.8 Skl, 25.1 Spd, 14.85 Lck, 24.55 Def, 17.55 Res

w/Birthright Yato: 40.8 HP, 30.85 Str, 28.15 Mag, 24.8 Skl, 29.1 Spd, 14.85 Lck, 24.55 Def, 17.55 Res

w/Conquest Yato: 40.8 HP, 26.85 Str, 28.15 Mag, 24.8 Skl, 25.1 Spd, 14.85 Lck, 28.55 Def, 21.55 Res

w/Revelation Yato: 40.8 HP, 30.85 Str, 28.15 Mag, 24.8 Skl, 29.1 Spd, 14.85 Lck, 28.55 Def, 21.55 Res

Regarding speed thresholds: the Hoshido final boss has 32 SPD and the Revelation Final Boss has 31 SPD. To double them, we need 37 SPD or 36 SPD respectively. (The Hoshido boss has Draconic Curse, so if we attack after getting sung for we'll get SPD -4, but singing gives +3, so we'd need to hit 38 SPD if we wanted to double after being cursed and getting sung for if we're engaging in a second round of battle).

Because the final Yato upgrade lets you do 75% damage vs. Dragonskin (and the weapon has 16 Might), we are presumably using it again the final bosses. So we get its extra +1…. in Birthright/Revelation, this would put our average speed value at 30, rounded down (29 [rounded down] +1).

A speed tonic (+2) and a +4 Spd pair-up (such as a Pegasus with +1 SPD Personal) gets us doubling the Revelation boss. Changing that to a +5 SPD pair-up would make us double the Birthright boss pre-curse, while +4 SPD and a Speedwing or +6 SPD pair-up gets us doubling post-curse. These figures ignore Rally Speed, which could replace +4 speed of these sources: example, SPD tonic (+2 ) and Rally Speed to double the Revelation boss, no +SPD pair-up required.

Disclaimer: These are based on average values. This means at times you will do better than them, while at times you will do worse.

If for some reason you reached the final battles and you were utterly desperate for an extra point of speed or slightly more physical attack, you could make an emergency class change to White Blood. If you did this, you'd get +0 HP, +2 Str, -2 Mag, -1 Skl, +1 Spd, +1 Lck, -1 Def, -3 Res.

Dark Knight actually has a better STR growth rate than White Blood does, but a worse base in it (+5% growth, -2 to base). But White Blood is better for speed (+5% growth, +1 base). Dark Knight is also actually more skillful by base (+1 base) but simultaneously has a worse growth (-5%). Actually, OVERALL, Dark Knight has +3 points in non-move bases (and +2 in movement), but it has -5% total growths and some things (like SPD) aren't as favorable, plus you get different weapons (B Swords/A tomes vs. A swords/A stones/B staves).

Edited December 4, 2015 by astrophys

[Shephen]

You can't really switch to your secondary until the end of chapter 7. Kamui is most likely going to hit level 10 here for Dragon Fang which is what you really want out of the prince line. If you hit level 10 in chapter 6 then you could switch at the start of 7. You get the first parallel seal from the level 1 shop. Problem is most of the time Kamui reclasses he loses his sword rank and he needs a weapon. To get a weapon you either need to steal Azura/Rinka's E weapons, or wait for a level 1 armory which you can't build until after 7.

[Ownagepuffs]

Kamui pretty much always leaves the prologue at level 9ish for me, then stays a Prince to use Dragonstone as a way to weaken enemies in 7 to train any of your new recruits. Kamui should be level 10 if they get the Silas kill as well (though it usually goes to Hana or Kaze for me). Considering you only get 1 DV point at C7 you have to pick between a weapon shop or a utility shop. Since the seal is in the utility shop even if you reclassed immediately at C7 you couldn't buy a tome anyway so odds are you stay a prince for C7.

So to answer your question, Avatar can reclass as early as C8.

Edit: got ninja'd so hard I lost 20% of my HP after I posted.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Ownagepuffs

[Shadow Mir]

Edit: got ninja'd so hard I lost 20% of my HP after I posted.

Dagnabbit.

Anyways, I wonder why everyone seems to recommend -Luck... I read earlier that -Skill might result in having hit rate problems, but I'd think that -Luck would likely result in facing non-zero crit rates, which sounds even worse to me than hit issues.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Levant Colthearts

[astrophys]

Okay, makes sense. Ch.8.

If you're leaving the prologue at 9/10, what is a reasonable Ch. 8 level?

Changing the subject, thinking back to my shockstick calculations at this post: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=58830&p=4113843….Setsuna might be a good mother for this, despite the poor magic growth, thanks to Prescient Victory

Back then, I assumed a Pegasus with a 15% growth rate (Hinoka or Hinoka!Matoi [if my guess of optional parent + child default averaging is correct) have this, for example].

But it occurs to me that we could get a better player phase attacker in another way: a Pegasus with Prescient Victory, such as Setsuna!Matoi

Now, I'm going to assume that Setsuna's 0% magic growth and Matoi's 15% magic growth average to 7.5% magic growth. If its actually like Awakening after all (despite my earlier experimentation), then it would instead be 11.666% thanks to Tsubaki. But I'll use the 7.5% figure.

So this is half the personal growth rate from before…. but how significant is this when we're getting +4 damage in player phase from Prescient Victory (which Setsuna can directly inherit onto Matoi as long as Setsuna hits level 10).

Assuming endgame levels of 20.15, losing 7.5% magic growth (15% --> 7.5%) costs a child 1.8 magic in levels on average. But Prescient Victory gives us +4 damage on the player phase [so admittedly, we're behind on the enemy phase, but the Pegasus gets better player phase damage]. For player phase, we're still ahead by 2.2 damage in our attacking by 20/15; the lower magic growth isn't enough to outweigh that damage bonus [player-phase only].

Additionally, the fact that Setsuna passes poor STR might actually turn to our advantage when using Shockstick with Prodigy… some of the borderline cases I discussed last time, like the Heroes who we probably wouldn't get prodigy against due to the likelihood of having equal strength as them, would be much more likely to be in our favor this time around. So that would actually let us get 4 extra magical damage against those enemies.

Also, what about physical attacks, just out of interest? The assumption of Hinoka!Matoi would give us 40% STR growth. Setsuna!Matoi, if my assumptions are correct, would have 27.5% STR growth. So a 12.5% difference. Over 24 levels (recruit at 10/0, promote at 20/0 ->20/1, get to 20/15), this accumulates to a loss of 3 STR, or 3 less damage… BUT we get +4 damage in the player phase, so that's a net gain of +1 player phase damage. So we're still weaker in the enemy phase, obviously, but we get more absolute killing power in the player phase, even with physical attacks.

Of course, earlier on, before the weaker growths have a time to kick in, the +4 damage will be even more dominant over the lower growths…

Disclaimer: The effects of parent stats on bases has not been accounted for, because I don't know how that works this time. This might tilt things more favorably towards Hinoka as a mom in some cases for this role.

Prescient Victory might really be a great skill for such a build. Sure, you miss out on Lancefaire, but that's so late in the game (level 15) that it won't really become relevant, whereas Prescient Victory would be highly relevant for the whole game.

ADDENDUM: About -LCK….

Guard stance does give you +5 dodge, which is the same as 10 extra luck. Also, Ch. 4 has a Goddess Icon, worth +4 luck; you could always just slap that onto the Avatar. There's another Goddess Icon later on too.

My Dark Knight example gets up to an average 14 luck on its own (assuming Nohr Prince route). That's 7 dodge. Guard Stance gets us to 12 dodge. This is without the Goddess Icon. With 1 Icon, you get up to 18 luck + guard stance, which is 14 dodge, on average. With 2 Goddess Icons, you get up to 22 luck + guard stance, which is 16 dodge. This also ignores Luck Tonics on top of this, which could get you to 26 Luck + Guard Stance, which is 18 dodge.

Furthermore, the CH. 27 Yato gives +10 Dodge. Heroes in Ch. 27 have 14 critical…. My average +MAG/-LCK Dark Knight example with 1 Goodess Icon (the Ch.4 one) and Guard stance hits 14 dodge. No crit. If I got RNG screwed, I just slap on a tonic. This also ignores the fact that I could be using Yato, for +10 dodge. 14 luck (no icon, no tonic) + 10 dodge = 7 dodge + 10 dodge = 17 dodge, so I'd still be fine.

The boss of that Chapter has 22 critical. With Guard Stance (5), Yato (10), and 14 luck (7), I get 22 dodge… no Icons required.

Some of the Berserkers have 21 critical, so less than the boss itself… Yato will protect you in that chapter. Without Yato could be somewhat more problematic, but 2 Goddess Icons and a Rally Luck + Guard Stance + Luck Tonic also solves that if needed.

Edited December 4, 2015 by astrophys

[avengerfive]

When can you get level 1 armory, assuming you get a level 1 shop first for the second seal?

[Ownagepuffs]

Exp gain is pretty slow for Kamui coming out of the route split, so if you managed to get 10 I don't think you can pull a higher level going into C8. The faceless in 1x barely give single digit exp so maybe wacking the boss a few times before taking the kill will push you to 11.

The Setsuna!Matoi build looks okay (never thought about stacking Victory with her personal), and Tsubaki appreciates Bowman pair up bonuses although Setsuna herself doesn't gain much from Tsubaki so training her for Victory to pass down could be troublesome. Also RIP Growths.

Edit: you can use your point from C7 to build the armory. So you can have both shops by C8.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Ownagepuffs

[astrophys]

I mean, aesthetically I like the look of Hinoka!Matoi and I like that she has higher growths and Lancefaire [even though she probably is sticking as a Pegasus in the main game]…. I just wanted to try reevaluating my assumptions and see "who actually would deal the better damage - the unit with poor growths + victory or the units with better growths without it.

Of course, offenses aren't everything, and Setsuna Matoi loses in a lot of other categories too, so having better HP, SKL, LCK, and DEF may be notable, plus Hinoka!Matoi and others like Oboro!Matoi, etc., have better STR and MAG for enemy phase or for play beyond 20/15, where at some point the weaker growths will eventually overwhelm Prescient Victory entirely [such as when grinding for a PvP or hypothetical high-end DLC team].

Shephen had actually sparked the idea a while back when we were talking about Matoi variants on a reddit thread… he had good things to say about a Prescient Victory build, so I decided to do the math here.

EDIT: Actually, if I recall correctly form what I've been told, a Setsuna!Matoi could also pick up Prescient Victory on her own in two levels if she promotes to GKW first, so Setsuna wouldn't have to pass it down for Matoi to realistically get it, although having it from the start would be highly preferable.

Edited December 4, 2015 by astrophys

[avengerfive]

Is there any point in trying to utilize Takumi's personal skill? It seems so difficult to use. I was thinking you could pair him with the second servant, because they come promoted at level 13 I think.

[astrophys]

Instant promote someone and pair-up. It works at least until Takumi promotes himself. Promoted units count as higher levels than un-promoted.

It breaks down eventually, but it should work in the early game.

Edited December 4, 2015 by astrophys

[Ownagepuffs]

I mean, aesthetically I like the look of Hinoka!Matoi and I like that she has higher growths and Lancefaire [even though she probably is sticking as a Pegasus in the main game]…. I just wanted to try reevaluating my assumptions and see "who actually would deal the better damage - the unit with poor growths + victory or the units with better growths without it.

Of course, offenses aren't everything, and Setsuna Matoi loses in a lot of other categories too, so having better HP, SKL, LCK, and DEF may be notable, plus Hinoka!Matoi and others like Oboro!Matoi, etc., have better STR and MAG for enemy phase or for play beyond 20/15, where at some point the weaker growths will eventually overwhelm Prescient Victory entirely [such as when grinding for a PvP or hypothetical high-end DLC team].

Shephen had actually sparked the idea a while back when we were talking about Matoi variants on a reddit thread… he had good things to say about a Prescient Victory build, so I decided to do the math here.

EDIT: Actually, if I recall correctly form what I've been told, a Setsuna!Matoi could also pick up Prescient Victory on her own in two levels if she promotes to GKW first, so Setsuna wouldn't have to pass it down for Matoi to realistically get it, although having it from the start would be highly preferable.

Forgot how convenient it is to pick up skills. It checks out pretty well then. Tsubaki with Setsuna is his pocket will probably turn out better than Matoi anyway but it's a neat idea that I didn't think of.

Is there any point in trying to utilize Takumi's personal skill? It seems so difficult to use. I was thinking you could pair him with the second servant, because they come promoted at level 13 I think.

Instant promote a goon then then tie them down to him. It really helps kickstart his pre promotion levels. I did it in very my first playthrough with Kagerou. My go to at this point is Hana x Takumi (really good for both of them) and given his limited enemy phase he tends to lag in levels anyway so having his spouse be higher leveled than him isn't too hard. He tends to stay well leveled but not overly so anyway since he's so good at blicking promoted enemies when they first show up. For instance, he once shots everything in C11, both promoted and unpromoted so he gets a few levels there. He's like your best option against the C13 Wyvern Lords as well so yeah.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Ownagepuffs

[Tooru]

Is there any point in trying to utilize Takumi's personal skill? It seems so difficult to use. I was thinking you could pair him with the second servant, because they come promoted at level 13 I think.

Attack Stance.

[Shadow Mir]

ADDENDUM: About -LCK….

Guard stance does give you +5 dodge, which is the same as 10 extra luck. Also, Ch. 4 has a Goddess Icon, worth +4 luck; you could always just slap that onto the Avatar. There's another Goddess Icon later on too.

My Dark Knight example gets up to an average 14 luck on its own (assuming Nohr Prince route). That's 7 dodge. Guard Stance gets us to 12 dodge. This is without the Goddess Icon. With 1 Icon, you get up to 18 luck + guard stance, which is 14 dodge, on average. With 2 Goddess Icons, you get up to 22 luck + guard stance, which is 16 dodge. This also ignores Luck Tonics on top of this, which could get you to 26 Luck + Guard Stance, which is 18 dodge.

Furthermore, the CH. 27 Yato gives +10 Dodge. Heroes in Ch. 27 have 14 critical…. My average +MAG/-LCK Dark Knight example with 1 Goodess Icon (the Ch.4 one) and Guard stance hits 14 dodge. No crit. If I got RNG screwed, I just slap on a tonic. This also ignores the fact that I could be using Yato, for +10 dodge. 14 luck (no icon, no tonic) + 10 dodge = 7 dodge + 10 dodge = 17 dodge, so I'd still be fine.

The boss of that Chapter has 22 critical. With Guard Stance (5), Yato (10), and 14 luck (7), I get 22 dodge… no Icons required.

Some of the Berserkers have 21 critical, so less than the boss itself… Yato will protect you in that chapter. Without Yato could be somewhat more problematic, but 2 Goddess Icons and a Rally Luck + Guard Stance + Luck Tonic also solves that if needed.

Actually you just reminded me, some of the ways to get around that waste other units' turns (Guard Stance means I'm now using two units' turns instead of one which might not be worth if given the pair up nerf, Rally Luck... what kills it for me is that I'd rather not have my healers give up their turns for a one turn stat boost if they could do something else instead). And while the final Yato might help on the crit evade front, what about before the Yato gets to its final form...??

Edited December 4, 2015 by Levant Colthearts

[astrophys]

Most of the players whom I've spoken to who have played the game on Lunatic (I myself haven't played it) have asserted that pair-up still tends to be the superior strategy overall, just not as overwhelmingly superior as it had been before.

If this is true, then asking for a pair-up is essentially irrelevant as we can presume that most of your units will tend to use pair-up anyways. Rally Luck would only be used in more extreme cases like Berserkers (who have inherent crit bonuses, which would make nulling out everything tricky to begin with).

Remember, 14 luck (7 dodge) + guard stance (+5 dodge) + goddess icon or luck tonic (+2 dodge) nulls out the crits of other enemy units like the high-skill Heroes (14). No Yato required.

Berserkers and other heavy crit bonus classes seem to be meant to be difficult to avoid facing a crit chance for most characters. I mean, 21 crit would need 42 luck to null out; you simply won't get that high (seeing that the highest luck classes have 35). You simply aren't nulling that out without assistance.

Bronze weapons also exist if you're scared of crits as a substitute for Yato's +10 crit evade, although due to their low attack power I don't think they're a great option.

[Tooru]

Actually you just reminded me, some of the ways to get around that waste other units' turns (Guard Stance means I'm now using two units' turns instead of one which might not be worth if given the pair up nerf, Rally Luck... what kills it for me is that I'd rather not have my healers give up their turns for a one turn stat boost if they could do something else instead). And while the final Yato might help on the crit evade front, what about before the Yato gets to its final form...??

I think somebody will say "good*1 > bad*2" soon.

We don't really need so many actions/battles in one player phase, because there are so many skippable enemies, items or whatever,

If you don't want to skip... Well, you will be told that you should not try those unnecessary and worthless things.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Tooru

[Shadow Mir]

I think somebody will say "good*1 > bad*2" soon.

We don't really need so many actions/battles in one player phase, because there are so many skippable enemies, items or whatever,

If you don't want to skip... Well, you will be told that you should not try those unnecessary and worthless things.

*sigh* This again? From what I read, pairing up might not be that good a strategy early on where I might need everyone I can muster, at least.

[Tooru]

*sigh* This again? From what I read, pairing up might not be that good a strategy early on where I might need everyone I can muster, at least.

When you can beat a chapter, whatever strategy you use can be good if you say it is good.

I like Attack Stance more, however. Too many actions in player phase results in unnecessary overkill.

I have to use some worse units/classes because they can easily do so.