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Nihilon

[Under Construction] Fates PvP Ruleset

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Added a few considerations for certain rules in the first post.

@Johnwaluigi, your idea for four different ruleset tiers is nice in theory, but in practice, we need to face facts - we are nowhere near as big as Smogon, and making too many rulesets would dilute what little of a playerbase we have. If the community gets big enough, we can still add extra rulesets - I'll keep yours in mind for now.

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I understand that 4 tiers is too much for such a small player base, I just thought they were interesting variations on the theme - perhaps they could be considered fun challenges, rather than tiers.

Also, in defence of some of the more restrictive measures I suggested for competitive mode, a large majority of them are designed to level the playing field between those who have all the DLC and those who don't. 1 of each DLC Class, and a restriction on DLC Skills ensures that no-one can abuse having unlimited access to Vanguard Dawn for example. Similarly for the idea that only Iron Weapons can be used. They are always available and are reasonably cheap, so anyone can forge them if they have the patience. Those with the Museum Melee DLC have a distinct advantage otherwise as, even without forging, they have access to a theoretically unlimited supply of powerful weapons, such as Brave weapons, that other players may only have 1 or 2 of. Limiting weapons also forces classes to fulfil certain niches, as only classes with access to Shurikens/Daggers/Tomes/Scrolls would have the ability to equip 1-2 range weapons.

As for how rules are policed, I would imagine that if there's some sort of ranking system, both players would have to consent to a result before whatever ladder or ranking system is updated. Therefore, if one player breaks the rules the other can invalidate the result, for example.

I will admit that I have always been someone who preferred the strategies involved in reclassing and creating interesting skillsets, and exploiting personal skills, rather than the strategy of equipping each weapon so perhaps I am somewhat biased in that regard.

Edited by Johnwaluigi

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Most people are going to play revelation when optimizing a team.

That means owning 2 paths, 2 boots isn't really an unfair advantage.

And that's why I suggest just 1 replicate.

And how does one use a rainbow tonic AND replicate?

Don't you waste your turn using a tonic, or do you use quick salve for it?

Quicktoxic doesn't stack.

1 or 2 activating skills is "only" 15%

Generally teams take one turn to prepare their units. So they use replicate and their tonics in a safe spot and pass turn. The only exception would probably be if they are playing on Fort Dragonfall as it is such a tight and confined map for the top team.

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Quicktoxic doesn't stack.

1 or 2 activating skills is "only" 15%

Ok, didn't knew that^^

Still, even "just" 45 % for Aether is quite high and brings a lot of trouble.

About different rule sets: Let us first develop one ruleset and if there are a lot of people supporting this set we can sit down again for new rule sets.

What I want to say is that we shoudn't think about multiple rule sets at the same time, cause then we would have chaos.

I would like to see forging banned for multiplayer, not because of the availability of the base weapons but because of the balance between the units. I mean that with a +7 steel or even iron weapon most units can take down a high defensive unit like Wyvernrider or General in one turn, which would make it kinda pointless to deploy these.

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I understand that 4 tiers is too much for such a small player base, I just thought they were interesting variations on the theme - perhaps they could be considered fun challenges, rather than tiers.

Also, in defence of some of the more restrictive measures I suggested for competitive mode, a large majority of them are designed to level the playing field between those who have all the DLC and those who don't. 1 of each DLC Class, and a restriction on DLC Skills ensures that no-one can abuse having unlimited access to Vanguard Dawn for example. Similarly for the idea that only Iron Weapons can be used. They are always available and are reasonably cheap, so anyone can forge them if they have the patience. Those with the Museum Melee DLC have a distinct advantage otherwise as, even without forging, they have access to a theoretically unlimited supply of powerful weapons, such as Brave weapons, that other players may only have 1 or 2 of. Limiting weapons also forces classes to fulfil certain niches, as only classes with access to Shurikens/Daggers/Tomes/Scrolls would have the ability to equip 1-2 range weapons.

As for how rules are policed, I would imagine that if there's some sort of ranking system, both players would have to consent to a result before whatever ladder or ranking system is updated. Therefore, if one player breaks the rules the other can invalidate the result, for example.

I will admit that I have always been someone who preferred the strategies involved in reclassing and creating interesting skillsets, and exploiting personal skills, rather than the strategy of equipping each weapon so perhaps I am somewhat biased in that regard.

One problem with the other player invalidating rules is that it gives them power if they are sore losers. There would need to be an appeal system to a moderator or something like that I think instead. I do agree in the use of no multiple use of the same class type thing and as for skills, if we just make it that there cannot be 2 of the same skill then that should counter a lot of problems. I agree with the iron weapons thing to an extent but I feel it removes another core factor when planning units. For example, you would not be able to exploit weaknesses using stuff like dragon spirit or armourslayer. I think that as long as weapons aren't forged, it won't be a problem OR if specific weapons have a forge limit in order to balance all weapons out but that still removes the point in classes having weapon tiers to begin with. I do understand your point with having museum melee. Maybe we could counter-act this by limiting multiple of the same items?

Just something I want to point out to everyone, it may be best to remove tonics too. If everyone uses rainbow tonics, they pretty much have the same stats anyway.

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Ok, didn't knew that^^

Still, even "just" 45 % for Aether is quite high and brings a lot of trouble.

About different rule sets: Let us first develop one ruleset and if there are a lot of people supporting this set we can sit down again for new rule sets.

What I want to say is that we shoudn't think about multiple rule sets at the same time, cause then we would have chaos.

I would like to see forging banned for multiplayer, not because of the availability of the base weapons but because of the balance between the units. I mean that with a +7 steel or even iron weapon most units can take down a high defensive unit like Wyvernrider or General in one turn, which would make it kinda pointless to deploy these.

Just something. I don't think percentages work like that. The chance to proc aether will go through the 15% of quixotic, then go through the 10% of hoshidan unity and so on. So 45% is an inaccurate calculation.

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Just something. I don't think percentages work like that. The chance to proc aether will go through the 15% of quixotic, then go through the 10% of hoshidan unity and so on. So 45% is an inaccurate calculation.

So it would be 38,8% for activating?

But in that case how does the miracle Midori with 100% Chance for miracle work? The Build requires the stacking of chance-increases.

Edited by 17thSeraph

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So it would be 38,8% for activating?

But in that case how does the miracle Midori with 100% Chance for miracle work? The Build requires the stacking of chance-increases.

Oh right. Yeah, I was probably wrong then.

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Just a base rule set that I have come up with.

1- No multiples of the same class

This is to avoid things like ninja-spam or kinshi-spam and varies gameplay. You are aloud to use classes of the same tree such as swordmaster and master of arms but you are not aloud to use the base of these classes or the promoted version if you are using the base.

2- No forged weapons

This would allow a level playing field for all weapons and classes and keeps balance between class stats and class weapon ranks.

3- No tonics

If everyone just uses rainbow tonics, it balances out so what is the point in it?

4- No multiples of the same skill

This is to avoid abuse of the stronger skills and create variety within gameplay. This means you cannot have a specific skill on more than one unit.

5- No multiples of DLC skills on the same unit

This means that you cannot use two or more of any skill obtainable through DLC on the same unit. This includes the classes dread fighter and dark falcon. The skill replicate is also included due to how broken it is.

6- No einherjar units

Einherjar units are extremely easy to exploit and make gameplay unfair. No exceptions shall be made.

7- Everything must be obtained through regular gameplay

Anything that can be obtained without altering your game with outside sources is fine. Anything that is illegitimate and cannot be obtained through normal means of gameplay is banned.

8- No boots

Multiple boots have to be obtained through DLC and other means. This makes gameplay unfair for some people and also alters balance between classes. Movement +1 is a viable supplement but only for 1 unit.

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We could allow up to two boots, one from story an another from the "Another gift from Anna"-DLC, which is free of charge.

Ah okay. I was concerned it wasn't free so edited it out. I think that movement is sort of like base stats in a way though and to equip boots is to change that. I don't know though. It could add another strategic element to gameplay

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I'm not a fan of "every skill just once".

Do we even have 25 "good" skills.

This will end up with a rally bot, a dancer and 2 good units, 1 with a pair up fodder.

Which again puts us at a "everyone got the same team" situation.

I'd rather we have DLC skills/replicate be toned to only 1.

And for the rest it's do what you please. There arn't THAT many godly skills and most need to be in combination with somethin else (or has a downside).

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Are prison units allowed idc for einherjar but I really enjoy prison units and I don't mod them to insane stats and I like using the bosses as well

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Are prison units allowed idc for einherjar but I really enjoy prison units and I don't mod them to insane stats and I like using the bosses as well

They are Logbook units, which can use the logbook exploit, so in my opion they are not allowed, but this rules are not based only on my opninion so maybe some else thinks differnt about it and it will be allowed in the rules later on.

But the problem is that even if you won't use the exploit others may do so.

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I'm not a fan of "every skill just once".

Do we even have 25 "good" skills.

This will end up with a rally bot, a dancer and 2 good units, 1 with a pair up fodder.

Which again puts us at a "everyone got the same team" situation.

I'd rather we have DLC skills/replicate be toned to only 1.

And for the rest it's do what you please. There arn't THAT many godly skills and most need to be in combination with somethin else (or has a downside).

Which is why I wrote the "1 skill per team" part down as a consideration. But yes, there should probably be restrictions on some skills at least, like Galeforce and Replicate, only allowing 1 of them or banning them outright. Could everyone make a list of skills that should be restricted/banned, along with a short reasoning? Off the top of my head, I'd say Galeforce, Replicate and Warp - Galeforce for its "kill half a team with one unit" properties, Replicate for being so strong as to be basically mandatory, and Warp rewarding whoever has the flier with the highest MOV range.

Are prison units allowed idc for einherjar but I really enjoy prison units and I don't mod them to insane stats and I like using the bosses as well

All logbook units (that's all units with the shield icon), including prisoners can use the logbook exploit to boost their stat caps - since it's often really difficult to tell whether a unit's stat caps have been boosted in this manner, it's far less of a headache to just ban them outright.

EDIT: Slightly edited the first post with more details on the point of skill restrictions. Also, could I get some more feedback on my idea of a "tier list restriction", only allowing players to use one or two units from the "S-tier"? I personally think it's a good idea to prevent people from just using multiple god-tier units even with the "only one of each class" restriction (like, say, a team consisting of a Master Ninja, a Swordmaster, a Witch, a Dancer and a Falcon Knight).

Edited by Nihilon

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Darn stupid exploits prevent me from using units I like

Well, the rules are really more like guidelines than actual rules. A gentlemen's agreement, so to say. I'm going to assume that most of the time, people are going to agree on relaxing one or two rules for a given match - so you'll maybe get to use your prisoner units in about half of all matches, maybe?

Agreed with the considerations, but can we find people interested in playing it? Especially Europe

I daresay that we've attracted a reasonable amount of interest with this thread alone - a dozen people, maybe? That's not too bad, really. As word spreads, we'll likely get more people, too, so there isn't really a need to worry about that.

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Read in to this a tad bit and glad some other people are looking in to it.

Also found this rule set from the comments saying they are from Japan. I added in parts on bold to attempt at making the rule better or change it. The thing is, by creating these rules, we are doing a decent thing right? It feels like people will have to re-do whole runs to fit these list rather than just edit teams. That is what concerns me about statues. They alter the game heaps but it would also suffocate peoples freedom when they are playing the game. I don't know.

1) Only two units can have replicate. Probably best to leave it at one.

2) Only one unit can have Nohrian Trust, and that unit must not have replicate. This sorta falls under the basis of no more than one of the OP skills (This rule I edited based on the post by @Mister Cold

3) Your team can only have a total of four Breaker abilities. I heavily second that we list out the OP skills or combinations of skills. Breaker skills are very much over-powered when chucked together (Josephine).

4) Timer set to 5 minutes.

5) Handicap on (this is shit, because it ends up with someone having 60 speed or something if the gap is too huge. Tried and tested w /u/VacuumSpace) It is best to have handicap off. As long as both characters are end game, it shouldn't matter.

6) Must make sure you have the same amount of boots as enemy. Probably best to ban them or limit them to a specific number. This means that there is no constant editing of teams.

7) Cannot use Einherjar unless you have proven it's from the same save file you're using. (This was easier when we were doing it, as we played it locally, next to each other.) Not sure about this. It can still be abused.

8) No Emblems, like your rule stated.

9) All forged weapons are banned.

10) You may only use 10-30 (varied each match up, to fit the certain persons fighting) Gold statues. Statues are tricky. We need to look in to them more.

11) Bond units are banned.

12) Illegal skills are alright if they're not that gamechanging.*** We created this to remove hacked stuff.

13) You can only have two charges of Rescue, Freeze, Hexing Rod.***

14) Bifrost is banned. Bïfrost is pretty over powered even if you are using a maid/butler to use it. You can suicide a tank, use bifrost and attack again. So I like this rule personally. It does mean you have to run a maid/butler though.

15) If you're running Galeforce on a unit, you cannot have BOTH Spendthrift and Life and Death. This is to reduce OTKO teams. I would also chuck replicate in there.

16) You can only use Rainbow Tonics if your enemy has them, and the same amount only if you have/they have more. Or just ban them. They literally just even out if both teams use them.

17) Only one warp is allowed, and that unit cannot have replicate.

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14) Bifrost is banned. Bïfrost is pretty over powered even if you are using a maid/butler to use it. You can suicide a tank, use bifrost and attack again. So I like this rule personally. It does mean you have to run a maid/butler though.

Bifrost can't even be used in PvP.

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Read in to this a tad bit and glad some other people are looking in to it.

Also found this rule set from the comments saying they are from Japan. I added in parts on bold to attempt at making the rule better or change it. The thing is, by creating these rules, we are doing a decent thing right? It feels like people will have to re-do whole runs to fit these list rather than just edit teams. That is what concerns me about statues. They alter the game heaps but it would also suffocate peoples freedom when they are playing the game. I don't know.

7) Cannot use Einherjar unless you have proven it's from the same save file you're using. (This was easier when we were doing it, as we played it locally, next to each other.) Not sure about this. It can still be abused.

11) Bond units are banned.

Just ban guest units entirely since they're the most effective abusers of Galeforce and can become even bigger problems with stuff like Replicate, Warp, Spendthift, Pass, Life and Death, Movement +1, etc. on top of the Logbook exploit involving character statues and statboosters. (This means no prisoners, no amiibo, no Einherjars, and no bond units -- both players MUST use story units.)

This also means that Rallybot Laslow as a Falcon Knight can only be used if, in your file, you actually have Laslow marry Azura, Selena, or a female avatar with Sky Knight talent; this means that his usefulness can be balanced by potentially screwing around with the player's desired pairings and possibly creating an opportunity cost for the usage of Boots (relevant if using him as a part-time Rescue/staffbot). And of course, no Scarlet, Yukimura, or Izana in Revelation unless you're not past Ch. 18 for the case of Scarlet.

In regards to the tier list, Spear Master seems to be A-tier. Wyvern Lord and Paladin are probably A-tier or B-tier. Great Knight and Malig Knight are likely to be C-tier. Mechanist is probably B or C-tier. Ballistician is most likely C-tier. Vanguard is likely C-tier. Great Lord is probably A or B-tier. Dread Fighter is probably C-tier due to largely being outclassed by Master Ninja. Master of Arms, Hoshido Noble, and Nohr Noble are likely to be C-tier. Songstress is either A or S-tier due to sheer utility.

Edited by Roflolxp54

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Nice to see that other people are doing this stuff, too.

Read in to this a tad bit and glad some other people are looking in to it.

Also found this rule set from the comments saying they are from Japan. I added in parts on bold to attempt at making the rule better or change it. The thing is, by creating these rules, we are doing a decent thing right? It feels like people will have to re-do whole runs to fit these list rather than just edit teams. That is what concerns me about statues. They alter the game heaps but it would also suffocate peoples freedom when they are playing the game. I don't know.

1) Only two units can have replicate. Probably best to leave it at one.

2) Only one unit can have Nohrian Trust, and that unit must not have replicate. This sorta falls under the basis of no more than one of the OP skills (This rule I edited based on the post by @Mister Cold

3) Your team can only have a total of four Breaker abilities. I heavily second that we list out the OP skills or combinations of skills. Breaker skills are very much over-powered when chucked together (Josephine).

4) Timer set to 5 minutes.

5) Handicap on (this is shit, because it ends up with someone having 60 speed or something if the gap is too huge. Tried and tested w /u/VacuumSpace) It is best to have handicap off. As long as both characters are end game, it shouldn't matter.

6) Must make sure you have the same amount of boots as enemy. Probably best to ban them or limit them to a specific number. This means that there is no constant editing of teams.

7) Cannot use Einherjar unless you have proven it's from the same save file you're using. (This was easier when we were doing it, as we played it locally, next to each other.) Not sure about this. It can still be abused.

8) No Emblems, like your rule stated.

9) All forged weapons are banned.

10) You may only use 10-30 (varied each match up, to fit the certain persons fighting) Gold statues. Statues are tricky. We need to look in to them more.

11) Bond units are banned.

12) Illegal skills are alright if they're not that gamechanging.*** We created this to remove hacked stuff.

13) You can only have two charges of Rescue, Freeze, Hexing Rod.***

14) Bifrost is banned. Bïfrost is pretty over powered even if you are using a maid/butler to use it. You can suicide a tank, use bifrost and attack again. So I like this rule personally. It does mean you have to run a maid/butler though.

15) If you're running Galeforce on a unit, you cannot have BOTH Spendthrift and Life and Death. This is to reduce OTKO teams. I would also chuck replicate in there.

16) You can only use Rainbow Tonics if your enemy has them, and the same amount only if you have/they have more. Or just ban them. They literally just even out if both teams use them.

17) Only one warp is allowed, and that unit cannot have replicate.

Regarding rules 1), 2), 15) and 17), it would be easier to just say "Only one of Galeforce, Replicate, Warp and Nohrian Trust per team, and no more than one of them per unit", though disallowing the combination of Galeforce with Spendthrift and Life and Death seems sensible. Also, disallowing Statues entirely seems like a nice idea, though it might be difficult to check. I'm currently at work, so I'll say more stuff and edit the first post later.

Just ban guest units entirely since they're the most effective abusers of Galeforce and can become even bigger problems with stuff like Replicate, Warp, Spendthift, Pass, Life and Death, Movement +1, etc. on top of the Logbook exploit involving character statues and statboosters. (This means no prisoners, no amiibo, no Einherjars, and no bond units -- both players MUST use story units.)

This also means that Rallybot Laslow as a Falcon Knight can only be used if, in your file, you actually have Laslow marry Azura, Selena, or a female avatar with Sky Knight talent; this means that his usefulness can be balanced by potentially screwing around with the player's desired pairings and possibly creating an opportunity cost for the usage of Boots (relevant if using him as a part-time Rescue/staffbot). And of course, no Scarlet, Yukimura, or Izana in Revelation unless you're not past Ch. 18 for the case of Scarlet.

In regards to the tier list, Spear Master seems to be A-tier. Wyvern Lord and Paladin are probably A-tier or B-tier. Great Knight and Malig Knight are likely to be C-tier. Mechanist is probably B or C-tier. Ballistician is most likely C-tier. Vanguard is likely C-tier. Great Lord is probably A or B-tier. Dread Fighter is probably C-tier due to largely being outclassed by Master Ninja. Master of Arms, Hoshido Noble, and Nohr Noble are likely to be C-tier. Songstress is either A or S-tier due to sheer utility.

Banning guest units entirely seems like the way to go unless both players agree otherwise. The rules should be more than a framework than anything else, unless we ACTUALLY do tournament stuff - which should come after we have a stable community of sorts.

Also thanks for the tier list input, I'll edit it later today.

EDIT: I'm also considering allowing Aptitude on units that can't normally have it as the sole hacked skill. It doesn't actually give a combat advantage, and all it actually does is maybe save you some money from Eternal Seals. Plus, it's really difficult to check if someone has been using Aptitude to boost their stat gains or not.

Edited by Nihilon

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Okay so, just a crack at a proper yet malleable rule list.

1- No multiples of the same unit.

2- No multiples of the skills replicate, galeforce, warp or nohrian trust and no more than one of these skills per unit.

3- Galeforce with both spendthrift and life and death are banned.

4- No more than four breaker skills and no more than one of these per unit.

5- No statues. (They can be broken and placed before and after for no cost so it is not detrimental.)

6- No forged weapons.

7- No tonics or stat boosting items.

8- Only two uses of rescue, hexing rod, freeze and other state altering/position changing staves may be used.

9- All bond, einherjar, amiibo and prison units are banned. (Exceptions could be made if both players agree on it.)

10- Boots are banned. (Still undecided.)

11- Handicap is turned off. (Can be altered if players agree.)

12- No hacked or illegitimate items, stats, skills, characters etc. that cannot be gained through regular play. Anything unavailable through normal play is banned outright. (Exceptions shall be made for non-battle changing hacks such as aptitude on first gen units or resource hacks.)

Bifrost can't even be used in PvP.

If it truly is, my bad xD

Just ban guest units entirely since they're the most effective abusers of Galeforce and can become even bigger problems with stuff like Replicate, Warp, Spendthift, Pass, Life and Death, Movement +1, etc. on top of the Logbook exploit involving character statues and statboosters. (This means no prisoners, no amiibo, no Einherjars, and no bond units -- both players MUST use story units.)

This also means that Rallybot Laslow as a Falcon Knight can only be used if, in your file, you actually have Laslow marry Azura, Selena, or a female avatar with Sky Knight talent; this means that his usefulness can be balanced by potentially screwing around with the player's desired pairings and possibly creating an opportunity cost for the usage of Boots (relevant if using him as a part-time Rescue/staffbot). And of course, no Scarlet, Yukimura, or Izana in Revelation unless you're not past Ch. 18 for the case of Scarlet.

In regards to the tier list, Spear Master seems to be A-tier. Wyvern Lord and Paladin are probably A-tier or B-tier. Great Knight and Malig Knight are likely to be C-tier. Mechanist is probably B or C-tier. Ballistician is most likely C-tier. Vanguard is likely C-tier. Great Lord is probably A or B-tier. Dread Fighter is probably C-tier due to largely being outclassed by Master Ninja. Master of Arms, Hoshido Noble, and Nohr Noble are likely to be C-tier. Songstress is either A or S-tier due to sheer utility.

Yeah, I was thinking about that but was mainly chucking it out there that it could be discussed. It is better to ban them though as they are extremely easy to exploit and all the rest that we covered earlier. I like the tier listing but I disagree with a couple. Ballistician may prove to be decent if we limit warp and kinshi spam but as for now, it is useless. I would chuck mechanist lower as it gets outclassed by a lot of other shuriken/dagger users.

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