Tellius Recollection (Vol 2) Translation / Discussion Thread

[Tolvir]

22 minutes ago, Scary tiki goddess said:

Ike can hold as many people dear as he wants, but the fact of the matter is that his profile took care to point out how he holds Soren dear. The original point I was questioning: why shouldn't people consider this addition to the body of textual evidence for romantic Ike/Soren?

(Tangentially, I can't imagine Soren as the hand holding type, at least not openly.)

There is a difference between hold dear and romantic feelings. I hold my brother dear, he has and always will be my best friend. But that doesn't mean I want to hold hands and be romantic with him. 

Unless it is officially confirmed that Soren and Ike were gay (I still honestly believe Soren is more asexual an anything. Dude is so apathetic he wouldn't react to any kind of advances) then there is really no evidence suggesting they had a relationship. Most of the "evidence" there is completely depends on how you interpret it. If you go looking for a romantic interest between the two, you may interpret it as such. But if you look at them as just friends then it is just two friends. 

[DarkLordIvy]

50 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Yeah, but the thing is, the ending isn't clear about what you say even though it is definitely possible. I just wish it was more clear, that's all.

As for chapter 7 in PoR, I believe Ike thought Elincia, Mist, and Rolf would be safe for the time being. That he didn't need to worry about them at that moment, but that catching up with his other comrades was important.

But maybe Ike could have occasional moments of selfishness. I mean, going back to my guy Ralph, he's not particularly known to get angry or pissy at people. Yet I wrote a scene where he does just that by punching a guy in the face after the guy riled him up about his past and him as a person. But see, I established this, whereas Ike doesn't seem to have any established moments of selfishness other than this ending, so the ending still strikes me as rather OoC. But people will interpret things differently, I guess.

Yeah, I like the name Ralph too. ^^ And he is one of my favorite OCs so far!

This is something this fanbase (and others I could name) really need to get through their heads...

I think there are a quite a few scenes that could be interpreted as Ike being selfish to some degree in PoR in particular, but like you said people will interpret things differently, and I don't necessarily feel like digging through the entire PoR script right now to find more examples. :/

I'm not sure if having more detailed ending would have helped settle debates like these or caused worse ones

9 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

And Elincia's and/or Lucia's profiles will probably mention how they hold each other dear. Still doesn't mean anything. Why should people automatically consider it to be romantic?

Also, again, there is no real text evidence for Ike and Soren as a romantic pair. I'm tired of people acting like it's canon when it isn't.

You really should actually read that article about Ike's sexuality, or at the very least the sections labeled "Performativity" and "Exclusively Gay?" It is extremely easy to read romance into Ike and Soren's interactions in the exact same way you read romance into Ike and Elincia's interactions.

You don't see Ike and Soren's relationship as romantic in any way and that is fine, but its rude to deny that there is any in-game content that suggests that otherwise. 
I think people claiming any paring for Ike is cannon is pretty obnoxious. 

[Anacybele]

4 minutes ago, DarkLordIvy said:

This is something this fanbase (and others I could name) really need to get through their heads...

I think there are a quite a few scenes that could be interpreted as Ike being selfish to some degree in PoR in particular, but like you said people will interpret things differently, and I don't necessarily feel like digging through the entire PoR script right now to find more examples. :/

I'm not sure if having more detailed ending would have helped settle debates like these or caused worse ones

You really should actually read that article about Ike's sexuality, or at the very least the sections labeled "Performativity" and "Exclusively Gay?" It is extremely easy to read romance into Ike and Soren's interactions in the exact same way you read romance into Ike and Elincia's interactions.

You don't see Ike and Soren's relationship as romantic in any way and that is fine, but its rude to deny that there is any in-game content that suggests that otherwise. 
I think people claiming any paring for Ike is cannon is pretty obnoxious. 

Eh, I guess you're right on most of these things. I'm kind of tired of debating it anyway and nobody's going to agree on everything. xP

I do have some bias for Ike x Elincia, but I try not to let it hamper my arguments too much and cloud my judgement or anything. As much as I love the pairing and call it my personal OTP, I can't ever say it's the most "canon" or anything like that. And I have to admit/accept that Geoffrey x Elincia is more canon by default because they actually got an ending, as sad as it makes me (even though I felt like any romance here was only on Geoffrey's end).

Edited June 5, 2017 by Anacybele

[a bear]

The real issue is RD's character endings being generally weak and extremely limited. Between that, no support dialogue, and the flat new cast members, it's pretty clear that all of the focus on writing went towards the main plot at the expense of characterization.

[DarkLordIvy]

5 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Eh, I guess you're right on most of these things. I'm kind of tired of debating it anyway and nobody's going to agree on everything. xP

I do have some bias for Ike x Elincia, but I try not to let it hamper my arguments too much and cloud my judgement or anything. As much as I love the pairing and call it my personal OTP, I can't ever say it's the most "canon" or anything like that. And I have to admit/accept that Geoffrey x Elincia is more canon by default because they actually got an ending, as sad as it makes me.

I think way more people get their headcanons and the actual canon mixed up waaaay to often and that sets off a lot arguments. Poor Ike is one of the biggest victims of this that I have ever seen. 

Well I had fun with this debate so thank you for being civil throughout it all. :)

Just now, a bear said:

The real issue is RD's character endings being generally weak and extremely limited. Between that, no support dialogue, and the flat new cast members, it's pretty clear that all of the focus on writing went towards the main plot at the expense of characterization.

If PoR and RD ever get remade or remastered I really hope this gets addressed.

[Interdimensional Observer]

There is a character I find to be a bit like Soren from Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor 2 (I bring this up for establishing that Soren as not gay, despite the ways he acts towards Ike, is not a lone case in video games). That character is Yamato Hotsuin- he's arrogant, elitist, tries keep everyone in the dark and use them in his plans to radically reform humanity, and generally not overly likable. However, his Fate Level events with the silent protag MC has him develop a curiosity in the MC, which gradually comes off as being interpretable as something of a romantic attraction. Unlike with Soren, there is no savior aspect which could justify Yamato's fascination in a non-romantic way.

However, you have to understand that Yamato was raised from childhood to be the heir to JIPS. His education was as he says was only through elite tutors- he had no public schooling, and because JIPS is a secret government organization with an important supernatural role in defending Japan, he had no public life, ever. Nothing is said of his parents, but it is presumable that the only relationships that Yamato has ever known are teacher-student and boss-employee, never friendship. Soren in his childhood, when he was raised by the cruel old woman and then the old man who only cared to teach Soren magic, never knew friendship either. Soren did later receive help from others when he went to Crimea in search of Ike after the Gallia encounter, but his already inherent Ike-centricism combined perhaps with some sense of awareness of his Branded status from his experience in Gallia post-Ike (though he didn't learn the truth until Begnion) probably kept him from getting close to anyone who helped him.

Yamato and Soren, if they are antisocial, it is much in virtue of having not been adequately socialized during the early years of childhood when friendships are generally first formed. Instead, we have two young adults (Yamato is 16 and Soren is approximately that) who never went through the ropes of friendship. And thus when presented with situations where normal people who had adequate experience with casual amicable relationships would pass through them with utter banality, they respond in ways that are by comparison unusual. Both display some knowledge of sexual desire (Soren flirts with Aimee for the Silver Card, Yamato says he has no interest in the girls' measurements when he says he looked over their physical exam results to determine who would make the best host for Lugh), but neither likely understands how their ways could be interpreted as romantic by others even when they aren't, nor likely care due to their history of noninvolvement with society and societal norms.

[Anacybele]

30 minutes ago, a bear said:

The real issue is RD's character endings being generally weak and extremely limited. Between that, no support dialogue, and the flat new cast members, it's pretty clear that all of the focus on writing went towards the main plot at the expense of characterization.

This I agree with and I also hope it's addressed if the game is ever remade. Plus with the addition of an Ike/Elincia ending, even if it must be platonic. xP

24 minutes ago, DarkLordIvy said:

I think way more people get their headcanons and the actual canon mixed up waaaay to often and that sets off a lot arguments. Poor Ike is one of the biggest victims of this that I have ever seen. 

Well I had fun with this debate so thank you for being civil throughout it all. :)

Oh, of course! :) It's SO MUCH less of a headache when it's civil and not heated and stuff. And yeah, poor Ike... :(

15 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

There is a character I find to be a bit like Soren from Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor 2 (I bring this up for establishing that Soren as not gay, despite the ways he acts towards Ike, is not a lone case in video games). That character is Yamato Hotsuin- he's arrogant, elitist, tries keep everyone in the dark and use them in his plans to radically reform humanity, and generally not overly likable. However, his Fate Level events with the silent protag MC has him develop a curiosity in the MC, which gradually comes off as being interpretable as something of a romantic attraction. Unlike with Soren, there is no savior aspect which could justify Yamato's fascination in a non-romantic way.

However, you have to understand that Yamato was raised from childhood to be the heir to JIPS. His education was as he says was only through elite tutors- he had no public schooling, and because JIPS is a secret government organization with an important supernatural role in defending Japan, he had no public life, ever. Nothing is said of his parents, but it is presumable that the only relationships that Yamato has ever known are teacher-student and boss-employee, never friendship. Soren in his childhood, when he was raised by the cruel old woman and then the old man who only cared to teach Soren magic, never knew friendship either. Soren did later receive help from others when he went to Crimea in search of Ike after the Gallia encounter, but his already inherent Ike-centricism combined perhaps with some sense of awareness of his Branded status from his experience in Gallia post-Ike (though he didn't learn the truth until Begnion) probably kept him from getting close to anyone who helped him.

Yamato and Soren, if they are antisocial, it is much in virtue of having not been adequately socialized during the early years of childhood when friendships are generally first formed. Instead, we have two young adults (Yamato is 16 and Soren is approximately that) who never went through the ropes of friendship. And thus when presented with situations where normal people who had adequate experience with casual amicable relationships would pass through them with utter banality, they respond in ways that are by comparison unusual. Both display some knowledge of sexual desire (Soren flirts with Aimee for the Silver Card, Yamato says he has no interest in the girls' measurements when he says he looked over their physical exam results to determine who would make the best host for Lugh), but neither likely understands how their ways could be interpreted as romantic by others even when they aren't, nor likely care due to their history of noninvolvement with society and societal norms.

I've never played SMT, but this seems like a fair comparison and a good post! Thanks for the read. :)

[DarkLordIvy]

Just now, Anacybele said:

This I agree with and I also hope it's addressed if the game is ever remade. Plus with the addition of an Ike/Elincia ending, even if it must be platonic. xP

Or they could just set everything on fire and give Ike possible marriage endings with Elincia, Soren, Ranulf, and Lethe.

RIP Ike and civil discourse.

27 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

-snip-

I have not played that game but that is an interesting interpretation and comparison.

(also small correction, Soren gets the Hammerne from Aimee not the Silver Card)

[Anacybele]

1 minute ago, DarkLordIvy said:

Or they could just set everything on fire and give Ike possible marriage endings with Elincia, Soren, Ranulf, and Lethe.

RIP Ike and civil discourse.

I have not played that game but that is an interesting interpretation and comparison.

(also small correction, Soren gets the Hammerne from Aimee not the Silver Card)

Heh, I guess I wouldn't complain about that even though I don't think Ike x Lethe would lead to any kids because of Lethe being too fiery and warrior proud to give up her laguz powers. Stinkin' canon...

RIP indeed... xP

Actually, Soren gets both. He gets the Hammerne in PoR and the Silver Card in RD. The Silver Card happens in that hilarious conversation between him, Ike, and Aimee where Aimee very nearly tricked Ike into saying she's the most beautiful girl...until Soren conveniently stepped in to stop him. XD It's freaking comedy GOLD. Ike and Aimee are always hilarious! They're so funny that I almost want to ship them too. Almost, but not quite. lol

[Interdimensional Observer]

Just now, DarkLordIvy said:

(also small correction, Soren gets the Hammerne from Aimee not the Silver Card)

In PoR it's the Hammerne staff Soren gets, and here Soren keeps Aimee from bothering Ike through telling him she could win his heart with spicy meat dishes. The RD conversation with the Silver Card is a sequel to the Hammerne one and has the flirting (it's how Soren gets the Silver Card).

[DarkLordIvy]

Just now, Anacybele said:

Heh, I guess I wouldn't complain about that even though I don't think Ike x Lethe would lead to any kids because of Lethe being too fiery and warrior proud to give up her laguz powers. Stinkin' canon...

RIP indeed... xP

Actually, Soren gets both. He gets the Hammerne in PoR and the Silver Card in RD. The Silver Card happens in that hilarious conversation between him, Ike, and Aimee where Aimee very nearly tricked Ike into saying she's the most beautiful girl...until Soren conveniently stepped in to stop him. XD It's freaking comedy GOLD. Ike and Aimee are always hilarious! They're so funny that I almost want to ship them too. Almost, but not quite. lol

 

Just now, Interdimensional Observer said:

In PoR it's the Hammerne staff Soren gets, and here Soren keeps Aimee from bothering Ike through telling him she could win his heart with spicy meat dishes. The RD conversation with the Silver Card is a sequel to the Hammerne one and has the flirting (it's how Soren gets the Silver Card).

Well that's what I get for not having played RD yet woops :P

Good to know one of my favorite character moments gets a second round in the sequel.

[Scary tiki goddess]

1 hour ago, Tolvir said:

There is a difference between hold dear and romantic feelings. I hold my brother dear, he has and always will be my best friend. But that doesn't mean I want to hold hands and be romantic with him. 

Unless it is officially confirmed that Soren and Ike were gay (I still honestly believe Soren is more asexual an anything. Dude is so apathetic he wouldn't react to any kind of advances) then there is really no evidence suggesting they had a relationship. Most of the "evidence" there is completely depends on how you interpret it. If you go looking for a romantic interest between the two, you may interpret it as such. But if you look at them as just friends then it is just two friends. 

 I hold my partner dear and we are romantically involved, and if I were to say that my sense of how dear I hold her is renewed, people would probably say that's pretty gay. What privileges your anecdote over mine?

For the record I'm not actually aligning myself with any concrete interpretation of Ike's sexuality, but I'm questioning why someone would see that line in his profile and say "I hope fandom doesn't read this line in a way it could be obviously read in."

[Tolvir]

5 minutes ago, Scary tiki goddess said:

 I hold my partner dear and we are romantically involved, and if I were to say that my sense of how dear I hold her is renewed, people would probably say that's pretty gay. What privileges your anecdote over mine?

For the record I'm not actually aligning myself with any concrete interpretation of Ike's sexuality, but I'm questioning why someone would see that line in his profile and say "I hope fandom doesn't read this line in a way it could be obviously read in."

That isn't what I said at all. All I said is that interpreting it solely as one without consideration of what it could also be is foolish. I think it's highly unlikely Ike was gay. Outside of a few "interpretation" of him and Soren, there is nothing else to it, unlike Leon for example. But I don't fully dismiss it either, there is a chance. 

And your point about the word dear completely missed what I was trying to say. All I was saying is that the word dear doesn't automatically mean something romantic. 

[Kirokan]

Well, this is certainly the most active this thread has been in awhile. xD

7 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

There is a character I find to be a bit like Soren from Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor 2 (I bring this up for establishing that Soren as not gay, despite the ways he acts towards Ike, is not a lone case in video games). That character is Yamato Hotsuin- he's arrogant, elitist, tries keep everyone in the dark and use them in his plans to radically reform humanity, and generally not overly likable. However, his Fate Level events with the silent protag MC has him develop a curiosity in the MC, which gradually comes off as being interpretable as something of a romantic attraction. Unlike with Soren, there is no savior aspect which could justify Yamato's fascination in a non-romantic way.

However, you have to understand that Yamato was raised from childhood to be the heir to JIPS. His education was as he says was only through elite tutors- he had no public schooling, and because JIPS is a secret government organization with an important supernatural role in defending Japan, he had no public life, ever. Nothing is said of his parents, but it is presumable that the only relationships that Yamato has ever known are teacher-student and boss-employee, never friendship. Soren in his childhood, when he was raised by the cruel old woman and then the old man who only cared to teach Soren magic, never knew friendship either. Soren did later receive help from others when he went to Crimea in search of Ike after the Gallia encounter, but his already inherent Ike-centricism combined perhaps with some sense of awareness of his Branded status from his experience in Gallia post-Ike (though he didn't learn the truth until Begnion) probably kept him from getting close to anyone who helped him.

Yamato and Soren, if they are antisocial, it is much in virtue of having not been adequately socialized during the early years of childhood when friendships are generally first formed. Instead, we have two young adults (Yamato is 16 and Soren is approximately that) who never went through the ropes of friendship. And thus when presented with situations where normal people who had adequate experience with casual amicable relationships would pass through them with utter banality, they respond in ways that are by comparison unusual. Both display some knowledge of sexual desire (Soren flirts with Aimee for the Silver Card, Yamato says he has no interest in the girls' measurements when he says he looked over their physical exam results to determine who would make the best host for Lugh), but neither likely understands how their ways could be interpreted as romantic by others even when they aren't, nor likely care due to their history of noninvolvement with society and societal norms.

I just wanted to chime in that I played and liked that game a lot! Though I preferred that character who is your current avatar more than Yamato : )

[Fire Emblem Fan]

Did Brom get a profile here?

[Anacybele]

15 hours ago, Kirokan said:

Well, this is certainly the most active this thread has been in awhile. xD

I suppose that tends to happen when Ike becomes a big subject. :P

Like said earlier, he's been the center of a number of debates. Poor guy.

[Kirokan]

6 hours ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

Did Brom get a profile here?

It's hasn't been translated yet, but yes he has a profile : )

6 hours ago, Anacybele said:

I suppose that tends to happen when Ike becomes a big subject. :P

Like said earlier, he's been the center of a number of debates. Poor guy.

Maybe that's why he left. xD

[Anacybele]

3 hours ago, Kirokan said:

Maybe that's why he left. xD

lol might not be far from true, honestly. Being the center of debates means the center of attention, which Ike pretty much hates being. xP

[Kirokan]

Sorry for the wait! Here's 076 Zelgius !

It was a nice profile I thought. I liked the parts about Gawain/Greil as well. I explained in a translation note that his "regret" in winning that duel is likely a reference to how he never got to fight him as he was in his prime, but they may have used the specific word to refer to how he looked up to him from before simply because he accepted him.

[Interdimensional Observer]

A tiny nitpick Kirokan- I thought that Zelgius was called the Duke of Kadohl ingame (or the games switch between their spellings). Though Cador sounds less Engrishy and much more normal, and thus better.

RD doesn't actually say that Zelgius is Begnion born I believe, I got the impression he was a Daein native. So we got new information from this profile- always a good thing. 

Zelgius's backstory is a bit contentious, because his whole "I don't want to be alone thing" undercuts his cool and powerful image. While his warrior's lust for battle, to the point he'd kill his own beloved mentor, undermines his outward appearance of honor, logic, and professionalism. Even so, I do like Zelgius overall.

Could you have not stolen the last two sentences Ike? And why no outright statement of "Zelgius (tragically) dies in the duel with Ike"?

Zelgius's profile also leaves me curious as to what Sephiran did in the years after the Serenes Massacre, and before becoming Prime Minister of Begnion.

[Kirokan]

6 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

A tiny nitpick Kirokan- I thought that Zelgius was called the Duke of Kadohl ingame (or the games switch between their spellings). Though Cador sounds less Engrishy and much more normal, and thus better.

RD doesn't actually say that Zelgius is Begnion born I believe, I got the impression he was a Daein native. So we got new information from this profile- always a good thing. 

Zelgius's backstory is a bit contentious, because his whole "I don't want to be alone thing" undercuts his cool and powerful image. While his warrior's lust for battle, to the point he'd kill his own beloved mentor, undermines his outward appearance of honor, logic, and professionalism. Even so, I do like Zelgius overall.

Could you have not stolen the last two sentences Ike? And why no outright statement of "Zelgius (tragically) dies in the duel with Ike"?

Zelgius's profile also leaves me curious as to what Sephiran did in the years after the Serenes Massacre, and before becoming Prime Minister of Begnion.

I believe Kadohl was an NoE translation, where as I went with NoA's "Cador" spelling. : )

From the script:

"Valtome: Uwee hee hee. You're not even a tiny bit surprised, Lord Zelgius of Cador? What a frightful bore you are. I came here in secret just to surprise you."

And yeah it was really strange at the end there xD With Zelgius's death not being mentioned, and Ike getting the last thing there, being related to Altina again.

And yes, likewise I was surprised he was Begnion, went to Daein, and then back with Sephiran. I thought he would have started in Daein, so that was nice to see too.

Edited June 10, 2017 by Kirokan

[Anacybele]

Huh, I don't remember anything in the games saying that Zelgius got his Brand from his father's side. Interesting!

Edited June 10, 2017 by Anacybele

[Zelgius]

17 hours ago, Kirokan said:

Sorry for the wait! Here's 076 Zelgius !

It was a nice profile I thought. I liked the parts about Gawain/Greil as well. I explained in a translation note that his "regret" in winning that duel is likely a reference to how he never got to fight him as he was in his prime, but they may have used the specific word to refer to how he looked up to him from before simply because he accepted him.

Nice work Kirokan, thanks for doing this.

Interesting that Zelgius went from Begnion to Daein, then back to Begnion again. You'd think some of the Begnion nobles/higher officers would mention this when discussing him, of even Daein higher ups might recognise his voice/mannerisms when he returned as the BK. 

6 hours ago, Anacybele said:

Huh, I don't remember anything in the games saying that Zelgius got his Brand from his father's side. Interesting!

It's briefly mention by Zelgius in Sephiran's memory, when Zelgius talks about his past.

[Anacybele]

Just now, Zelgius said:

It's briefly mention by Zelgius in Sephiran's memory, when Zelgius talks about his past.

Ah, I see. I must've never seen that part for some reason.

[Kirokan]

Yes indeed, he mentions it briefly in that flashback. I do want to go compare those scenes to what they say in Japanese someday. xD

As for Begnion to Daein to Begnion, perhaps if it was over a long period of time (due to aging differences) he may have simply outlived the people who knew him. Then again he may not be that old, so maybe he just never made a big name for himself until his return? xD