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3 hours ago, Sturm said:

All right here's my two cents for what it's worth:

  • Vanessa should definitely be above Franz I feel, his combat isn't that much better than hers especially after she promotes, nowhere near enough to mitigate the advantage she has from flight. Also I don't see how Vanessa can't contribute in chapters 3 and 8.
  • I agree with Horace about Duessel, he's nowhere near A/B tier. Ephraim!Duessel is good if you give him the Speedwing I guess but there are better alternatives like Cormag most obviously and Eirika!Duessel is going to kill a few things in the desert and probably nothing else, I'd put him around bottom of C/top of D.
  • Ephraim!Saleh should probably be lower his combat is still good but Artur/Lute have more time to level and outperform him by the time he joins plus he can't really reach Warp until much later if at all.
  • Kyle and Forde I feel might be a bit too high they're usually pretty underlevelled by chapter 9 but they're both Cavaliers/Paladins so they probably should be top of B I guess, not really sure about this one.
  • I think Moulder is too high, I mean he does some healing which is nice but he shouldn't be A tier, especially over the likes of Tana.
  • Innes should be lower I think especially Ephraim!Innes he can make some contributions due to Silver Bow mostly but I don't see him being top of B at all.
  • Lute I feel should be higher although that's probably just because some of the people above her I think should be lower. She's worse than Artur almost for sure but I think she's pretty solid once she gets going.
  • Gilliam I think should be higher, nearer Garcia, sure he's slow and he's a knight but I think he's pretty decent especially after he promotes (Great Knight obviously), although having said that he's going to be made almost entirely redundant by the likes of Vanessa/Franz/Seth/Forde/Kyle etc so maybe it's more warranted where he is. I guess in a vacuum I'd say he should be higher but compared to others probably not.
  • I think there's a pretty big difference between Ephraim!Cormag and Eirika!Cormag to the point where I wouldn't even bother waiting for Eirika!Cormag to show up. At least a tier difference I'd say maybe even more.
  • Syrene is missing from the list.

A King Crimson profile pic, a Yes-inspired location. I love you!

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11 hours ago, Sturm said:

All right here's my two cents for what it's worth:

  • Vanessa should definitely be above Franz I feel, his combat isn't that much better than hers especially after she promotes, nowhere near enough to mitigate the advantage she has from flight. Also I don't see how Vanessa can't contribute in chapters 3 and 8.
  • I agree with Horace about Duessel, he's nowhere near A/B tier. Ephraim!Duessel is good if you give him the Speedwing I guess but there are better alternatives like Cormag most obviously and Eirika!Duessel is going to kill a few things in the desert and probably nothing else, I'd put him around bottom of C/top of D.

Early game is filled with axe users, Franz can use sword to deal good damage to them, Vanessa can't do that because she is lance-locked, the bandits will destroy her, I would be surprised if Franz's combat isn't much better than Vanessa's.

Ephraim!Duessel is definitely B or even A tier. He's just unkillable, his speed is meh but he still manages to double a lot of enemies and if he fails to double anything, he can just use brave weapons so it's not a big problem. He also has awesome weapon rank, which lets him use every weapon in the game( Except the legendary ones) 

Edited by SpaceSamurai

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Seconding seperating Ephraim!Cormag and Eirika!Cormag, he joins much earlier on Ephraim's route and they're much more flier friendly (cormag misses the good flier maps like chapter 9/12 on Eirika route).  Even if you wait around for him, he'll probably be comparable to Tana offensively by the time he joins anyway.  I think on Eirika route he could stand to drop down to the top of C tier or something.  Duessel is still far to high imo.  He's seriously one of the worst units in the game on Eirika route, and remarkably average on Ephraim's route (although he requires 0 investment, which is nice.)

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11 hours ago, SpaceSamurai said:

Ephraim!Duessel is definitely B or even A tier. He's just unkillable, his speed is meh but he still manages to double a lot of enemies and if he fails to double anything, he can just use brave weapons so it's not a big problem. He also has awesome weapon rank, which lets him use every weapon in the game( Except the legendary ones) 

I dunno about this - I feel General Horace has a point. Most of the stuff he happens to double is either unpromoted, weighed down, or slow to begin with. Also, the brave weapons come very late in SS (the axe in chapter 17, everything else in chapter 19).

Also, I agree that Cormag should be split up by route since there's a clear disparity in performance.

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21 hours ago, Heptade said:

A King Crimson profile pic, a Yes-inspired location. I love you!

Thanks mate! Always good to meet another Prog Rock enthusiast! :awesome: You should have a listen to Van der Graaf Generator if you haven't heard them, they're one of my favourites and a bit less well known, if you like KC you'll probably like them. H to He, Who Am the Only One, Still Life and Pawn Hearts are all great albums.

13 hours ago, SpaceSamurai said:

Early game is filled with axe users, Franz can use sword to deal good damage to them, Vanessa can't do that because she is lance-locked, the bandits will destroy her, I would be surprised if Franz's combat isn't much better than Vanessa's.

Ephraim!Duessel is definitely B or even A tier. He's just unkillable, his speed is meh but he still manages to double a lot of enemies and if he fails to double anything, he can just use brave weapons so it's not a big problem. He also has awesome weapon rank, which lets him use every weapon in the game( Except the legendary ones) 

You have a point about Franz being able to use Swords I hadn't thought about that but I still don't see it putting him above Vanessa, anyway they're almost certainly 2nd/3rd best unit after Seth so it's probably just nit picking to say which one is slightly better than the other.

Don't get me wrong I don't think Ephraim!Duessel is bad by any means but I just don't see him as A tier, I seem to remember him needing the Speedwing to double stuff but if he doesn't need it I could see him being somewhere in B maybe but A I just don't see it at all.

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I'm a pretty big fan of Ephraim!Duessel, so I guess I'll explain his usability and why I think low A/high B would be a sufficient placement for him.

I think we can all agree that his bases are pretty fantastic, especially his defenses and weapon ranks. 41 HP, 17 Defense, and 9 Resistance is top-tier during the mid-game, and among the best of any units you have by the time you get him in Chapter 10. His weapon ranks are also spectacular, with the triple A's in Swords, Lances, and Axes. A Axes in particular is a great boon, since it allows him to reach S Rank quickly, and use Garm as soon as it's gotten in Chapter 14. His offensive bases may not be as impressive, at 17 Strength and 12 Speed, but I think they are sufficient for a good amount of the game, and I'll try to explain why.

I will admit that his contributions in his starting chapter (Chapter 10) are nothing too special. He can fend off the pirates attacking the NPCs, but most people can do that, and tanking the various Mercenary/Cavalry reinforcements also isn't anything too special. I will note, however, that he preforms pretty well against Beran, the boss, since he's one of the few capable Axe users at this point that can counter Beran's Lancereaver and not get doubled. Considering that killing Beran is faster than waiting out the turncount, this may be the preferable option, in which case Duessel helps out quite a bit.

Chapter 11 is where he really starts to shine though, and he never really stops. I won't go into it too much, since other people have mentioned it already, but his does really well in Pirate Ship, ORKOing virtually every grunt on the ship, and, more importantly, having the Defense to tank the onslaught of Enemy Phases. Considering that this is considered one of the harder chapters in the game, that's a pretty big point in his favor.

And he just continues. In Chapter 12, he can clear out the various monsters blocking the 1-tile chokepoints, allowing other units to run towards the boss. In Chapter 13, he can double the Fighters, Archers, and Peg. Knights, and OHKO the Cavaliers he doesn't double with the Horseslayer. In Chapter 14, he can ORKO almost every enemy, either doubling naturally or OHKOing the Mercs/Myrms with the Swordslayer/Swordreaver/Silver Lance. It's in this same chapter that you get Garm, which Duessel can use quite proficiently throughout the rest of the game. The only chapters in which he doesn't do too well in is Chapter 17, due to the influx of mages. Heck, with the Garm, he can even do a juicy 21 damage to the Demon King, surviving the counter and not getting doubled (not too impressive, but fun fact).

And he does all of this at base.

Indeed, the only non-promoted enemies he can't consistently double are Mercs, Myrmidons, and the Chapter 13 Cavaliers (the one's that aren't weighed down). However, he can OHKO all of them with a Silver Lance/Horseslayer (or he gets really close). He doesn't really need Speedwings, or any stat-booster for that matter, although they help, obviously.

He does have a tougher time against standard promoted classes, but they don't arrive too often: you have the Chapter 13 Great Knight (Armorslayer says hi), the Chapter 14 Bishops/Druids (fair point), and past Chapter 14, even promoted classes don't enjoy taking the massive chunk from Garm (he might even double with his boosted 17 speed). Even if you don't want to use the Garm/want to use it on someone else, he still has the bulk to take the hits (usually without getting doubled) and deal the damage back with a powerful Silver/Killer/Effective weapon.

Just reminding you that this is all at base. No investment. No training. Straight out of the gate. Indeed, other units can do these things better, but they require sufficient training, whereas Duessel does this with no training.

Basically, Duessel has a dominant mid-game, with his amazing bases making him a competent unit well into the end-game, with absolutely no investment. Whether this better fits A Rank or B Rank in this tier list is up for debate, but, as someone with much experience using him, I think he should be low A tier/high B tier. If you ask me, his current placing below Tana/above Christmas Cavs is a-okay. I can see the argument for Christmas Cavs being better, but I really think he's better than Ephraim!Saleh, at the very least.

But Eirika!Duessel? Yeah, pretty bad, should probably drop.

Thanks for reading this, sorry if this rambled on a bit. I just tried to explain my experience as best as I can.

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20 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Most of the stuff he happens to double is either unpromoted, weighed down, or slow to begin with.

 

Iirc, nearly 70% of the enemies in the game are like that.

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On 9/18/2017 at 7:06 PM, Kebe said:

stuff about Duessel

I've been playing through again to test some stuff out, and I'm just compare 4 units (three of which are in C tier) to Duessel.  I'm currently at the start of Chapter 12, essentially a map after Duessel joins (since he doesn't do anything in Chapter 10).

UNIT               HP ST SK SP LC DF RS
10/5 GILLIAM       37 16 11 08 06 17 07
15/1 HERO!GARCIA   41 16 13 11 07 10 04
15/1 PALADIN!KYLE  36 15 11 12 08 14 05
DOZLA              43 16 11 09 04 11 06 
DUESSEL            41 17 12 12 08 17 09

Gilliam VS Duessel

Gilliam is essentially Duessel lite, however he has the additional perk of having an additional ten chapters of availability on Duessel.  For reference, there are 23 chapters in the game, Gilliam has almost half the game of availability on Duessel.  Using the first knight's crest is obviously a big opportunity cost, but if Franz isn't in play Gilliam is undoubtably the best candidate (on Ephraim route anyway) since Forde/Kyle won't be level 10 before chapter 9 anyway and you get your second crest after chapter 10.  Promoted Gilliam in chapter 8 is excellent, being able to ORKO the knights in the first treasure room with a Steel Axe along with being able to oneshot mages with the Silver Lance, all while being immortal for that point of the game.  He also shines in Fort Rigwald, as he can be a mounted Halberd to kill the droves of cavaliers, and is able to kill the knights and soliders as well without too much effort, and even doubles the weighed down steel bow archers from over the wall with the hand axe or javelin for the kill, and your teams offence during Fort Rigwald is pretty low, the cavaliers are generally too tanky for most of your team to handle in a single round of combat.  

Beyond that, he's generally worse than Duessel, but not by much.  Both fail to double the gargoyles on the Phantom ship, but all the other monsters are slow enough for Gilliam to double, and they have similar Strength, defence and weapon ranks, (Gilliam has E swords, but he'll undoubtably have A (or even S) lances and at least B Axes by this point.  Further into the game, Gilliam misses doubles on stuff like enemy Archers, Fighters and Cavaliers (Duessel only misses some cavaliers).  Durability wise Gilliam stays on par with Duessel for their entire existence pretty much, only losing out slightly against magic enemies.  

One more point in Gilliam's favour is he has 1 less point of CON.  No promoted flier can rescue Duessel, while Cormag can rescue Gilliam, and with 6 movement, being rescued occasionally is nice.  Gilliam is currently 16 spots behind Gilliam, Duessel's only advantage on Gilliam is better combat vs some enemy types midgame and earlier Garm usage (by maybe 1-2 maps).

Garcia VS Duessel

Garcia is a monster earlygame, unlike Gilliam who's merely average, so this comparison hurts Duessel even more.  Garcia has little to no competition for the first hero crest on Ephraim's route (he's easily better than Joshua promoted).  They're both in a similar speed tier, Garcia will likely keep pace since he gains roughly double the exp that Duessel does for a while thanks to Duessel's high base level, while surpassing him in raw damage output lategame by a pretty significant margain if both units are doubling.  Garcia also hits Garm around the same time as Duessel.  Their midgame combat is virtually idential, with Duessel's advantages being having Canto (not as huge as you'd think on a 6 move unit) and better concrete durability, but Garcia's is by no means bad, usually being 6/7HKO'd.  He also misses out on lances which is probably the biggest advantage Duessel has with stuff like the Dragonspear and Horseslayer, and a better way to fight sword wielding enemies (Garcia's swords aren't bad but definately a tier down).

Garcia also has 1 point less of Con than Duessel, so he can be rescued by promoted fliers while Duessel cannot.  

Duessel is currently 10 spots up on Garcia.  Unlike with Gilliam, Garcia has equal midgame combat, an excepctional earlygame contributions, and is a stronger combat unit lategame, trading that for lance useage, and less, but still decent durability.  I think Garcia is undoubtably better than Duessel personally.

Dozla VS Duessel

I mostly had this here just to compare their base stats.   Offensively Dozla is similar to GK!Gilliam, with the durability of Garcia, so he's a little worse off.  Dozla however has the advantage of waterwalk in chapter 13, and a 15% crit boost.  Dozla will likely catch up to Duessel's speed come later in the game since he gains more experience since he's a much lower level, and surpass him in combat (marginally) thanks to his crit boost.  Dozla's undoubtably worse than Duessel, yet he's higher than Gilliam, who's very comparable.  

Kyle VS Duessel

Kyle is just flat out better than Duessel.  Their physical durability is very very similar (in the not dying territory), Kyle's speed is good enough to be tied with Duessel, and he has +2 movement and much less con (he's able to be rescued by any promoted Flier or Paladin).  Kyle's offence is likely to be similar to Duessel's for most of the game, Duessel likely has the slight edge thanks to Garm use and axes in general, but Kyle's mobility is a far better boon in several scenerios.  

Kyle is close to Duessel being just below him, but his abililty to ferry people, have more mobility all while maintaining a similar level of combat just makes him a flat out better unit, even ignoring durability.  If 15/1 Kyle showed up in Duessel's chapter and the player had a choice between the two, Kyle would probably be picked every time.  

This just means one of a few things: Duessel is far to high, or Gilliam/Garcia are far too low.   I think it's a bit of both.  I personally think Gilliam and Duessel should be together at the bottom of B Tier, with Garcia higher up in B tier.  Other dudes that would be above them like Ephraim!Saleh and Innes both should drop too, as Duessel is definately better than the both of them, but I just can't buy him being an A tier unit, or even one in high B.   6 movement thats essentially unrescuable isn't a great place to be, especially on a unit with middling combat like Duessel.

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2 hours ago, General Horace said:

This just means one of a few things: Duessel is far to high, or Gilliam/Garcia are far too low.   I think it's a bit of both.  I personally think Gilliam and Duessel should be together at the bottom of B Tier, with Garcia higher up in B tier.  Other dudes that would be above them like Ephraim!Saleh and Innes both should drop too, as Duessel is definately better than the both of them, but I just can't buy him being an A tier unit, or even one in high B.   6 movement thats essentially unrescuable isn't a great place to be, especially on a unit with middling combat like Duessel.

You raise good points: 6 move is pretty mediocre and being nearly unrescue-able makes it even worse. I suppose I did underestimate how fast units can grow in this game and, thus, B rank would probably work. I still insist that Duessel's combat is better than "middling", but I've already made my case, so there's no need to repeat it.

The exact position in B rank matters not to me, but I do support raising Garcia to B, and also lowering Ephraim!Saleh and Innes.

I also question Natasha being B rank, since her staffing is ultimately inferior to Moulder's, Bishop!Artur's, and Eirika!Saleh's. She does have 7 chapters over Saleh, and slightly less over Artur, depending on when you promote him. She still faces competition over Moulder, and the double healing isn't too necessary for the early-game chapters. Getting her to promotion is also difficult due to how short this game is, and how the higher EXP staves don't appear until later. Perhaps I underestimate the worth of having a 2nd healer for some chapters of early and mid-game, but I think C Rank makes sense, since deploying her "can be useful depending on the situation".

I will say she is slightly better on Ephraim's Route due to Saleh not being able to train his staves for nearly as long, but I don't see how that significantly affects her ranking for the better.   

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Natasha imo could be as low as D tier.  She struggles to even promote before the game is over thanks to healer exp and she starts at level 1.

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Ugh, I don't agree with a lot on here. And your spelling needs work.

What is the criteria for the ranking? Does turn count matter? Are we to always assume that Franz gets the Knights Crest or does Gilliam get some claim to it as well?

Spoiler
On 9/7/2017 at 10:42 AM, Mariode said:

S-Tier:
Franz
Vanessa - Nessie is better than Franz for the same reason Tana is above Kyle and Forde.
Tethys
Saleh (Eirika) - I feel like he shouldn't be in the same tier as Franz and Nessie.

A-Tier:
Arthur - Artur
Gerik - Should be separated by route. Eirika is his best route and Gerik (Eirika) should be below Cormag (Ephraim)
Cormag - He should be separated by route. He is significantly worse on Eirika's route and costs 4-5 turns to recruit.
Moulder  - All he does is warp later on. Should be below Tana, Kyle, and Forde.
Tana
Duessel (Ephraim) - Probably a little high. He is solid, but never really neccessary.
Kyle
Forde
Saleh (Ephraim) - LOL no. He should be like top of D- tier at best.

B-Tier:
Innes - Too high.
Ephraim (Eirika) -Too high.
Lute
Natasha - Why is she so far from Moulder? They both never fight and do basically the same exact thing.
Duessel (Eirika) - LOL HELL NO. He is E-tier. I'm serious.

C-Tier:
Eirika (Ephraim) - Too Low. She is there for the first 8 chapters no matter what, and has a great promotion and Legendary weapon.
Garcia - a bit too low. Should be in the B- tier.
Joshua - Too high. Honestly, swordlock makes him really bad. Gerik and Garcia make better use of the Hero Crest.
Ross - He should be just below wherever his daddy is. And he has potential to be even better than Dad if he gets enough EXP.
Colm - Too high. Shit offense and Thief utility is literally never needed. The only thing of note he does is steal an Energy ring. Should be below Rennac
Dozla 
Myrrh
Gilliam - Depending on the criteria of the playthrough, he could potentially be above Deussel (Ephraim). Regardless, too low. Should be above Joshua.

D-Tier:

Syrene - She should be right here.
Knoll
L'Arachell - L'Arachel
Rennac - He should be above Colm because he can actually fight
Ewan

E-Tier:

Innes (Ephraim) - He should be right here. Below Duessel (Eirika)
Marisa - If turncounts matter, she should be below Amelia. Well, at least her Eirika route version.
Neimi - Way too low. Joins early and gets a horse on promotion and access to the Longbow. Also no competition for promotion item.
Amelia

There really should be two separate lists for each route. Gilliam, Kyle, and Forde for instance are worse on Eirika's route because there is only one Knights Crest.

Edited by Hawk King

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49 minutes ago, Hawk King said:

The only thing of note he does is steal an Energy ring. Should be below Rennac

And get an Angelic Robe, and an Elysian Whip, and steal a Speedwing in Ephraim's route. Enhanced vision in two fog of war maps is pretty nice too. So I'm gonna have to call bullshit on this.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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2 hours ago, Hawk King said:

Saleh (Ephraim) - LOL no. He should be like top of D- tier at best.

The best endgame warp user is D-tier? Wtf?

2 hours ago, Hawk King said:

Thief utility is literally never needed

Again, WTF?

2 hours ago, Hawk King said:

Gilliam - Depending on the criteria of the playthrough, he could potentially be above Deussel (Ephraim). Regardless, too low. Should be above Joshua.

I swear Joshua is much much better than Gilliam. Joshua is the best boss killer in your team until at least chapter 9. Gilliam is awful, low mov and meh offense = auto low tier, his durability isn't impressive either, his speed is so bad that he even gets doubled by some occasional bandits on chapter 2. 

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13 minutes ago, SpaceSamurai said:

The best endgame warp user is D-tier? Wtf?

That's on Ephraim route, where he comes in at chapter 15. I'm not seeing Saleh get to A staves in any reasonable timeframe when he only has like 6 chapters of playtime left.

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12 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

That's on Ephraim route, where he comes in at chapter 15. I'm not seeing Saleh get to A staves in any reasonable timeframe when he only has like 6 chapters of playtime left.

Just spam barriers and he will reach A staves by the final chapter, even if he doesn't, he still serves well as a combat unit, I would say he is better than both Lute and Artur. 

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49 minutes ago, SpaceSamurai said:

Just spam barriers and he will reach A staves by the final chapter, even if he doesn't, he still serves well as a combat unit, I would say he is better than both Lute and Artur. 

The problem is that Barrier staves aren't buyable until after chapter 15 (and the free one might've already been broken). He also needs 28 barrier uses to go from C to A. This means he might not get to A rank in time to use it for anything meaningful.

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I do believe that Colm > Rennac. Even if Colm's contributions of a few statboosters and promotion items are nothing "of note", they are still more than nothing, which is virtually what Rennac contributes by the time he joins. He grabs a few stuff as an enemy, but that's about it. By the time he joins, most chapters are turning into warp skips, and there's no real need to grab anything in chests. His combat is pretty bad too, since 10 Strength isn't doing him any favors. 

On the topic of Ephraim!Saleh, he's not D-Rank material I'd say, but not having the time to grind staves does suck. His combat is still pretty good, and he still reaches S Anima with ease, but if you're going for the warp skips of the late-game, he's not feasibly getting to A Staves. Even if you get him to A Staves, it's going to be in the last 3 chapters of the game, and you put in all that time and effort to get him to Warp once or twice. Why do that when you can get Moulder, Artur, Natasha, or even Lute to do the same thing earlier and, most likely, better than he can? I've used him in one of my Ephraim playthroughs, and he got to B Staves at the start of Chapter 20. Getting him to A would just be worse, and ultimately not worth it.

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Eph(saleh) is mainly just a beater, and would cost turns if you tried to get him to warp. That said, no-one else is going to have Excalibur, so he can potentially be a 3rd/4th unit that can hurt the demon king. It's sad that he misses Purge and therefore misses out on the C18 Gorgon egg utility.

Nevermind, forgot Rescue was B rank and not C rank, only moulder can do this-

For the C19 warps, Arthur needs Saleh (or moulder) to  Rescue stave the warp targets to him because of the distance involved.

Finally on the second part of Endgame, he can either smack the demon king himself or help rescue stave a second target up to it (in addition to whoever arthur warps) to increase reliability if hit rates/ criticals become otherwise neccesary for the 1 turn. 

So he has 1 major contribution and and 3 minor contributions in the 6 maps he's in. (c15 desert combat, c16, c19, final) . If going for warpless strats for whatever reason he can contribute in his other 2 Ephraim maps. 

I would probably put Eph (saleh) below Myrhh but above the other late units  Syrene, Eph (Innes), and  Eph (Eiraka)

Edited by Reality

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Saleh can't really fight the demon king unless it's the last hit, he gets oneshotted.  He can help with staffing though.

You can still get purge on Ephraim route though, and he has the rank for it at base.  

Edited by General Horace

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4 hours ago, SpaceSamurai said:

Just spam barriers and he will reach A staves by the final chapter, even if he doesn't, he still serves well as a combat unit, I would say he is better than both Lute and Artur. 

Can Saleh really reach warp on Ephraim's route when he starts with C rank staves and the warp skip begins at chapter 16, just one map after he joins? It's not like he can spam barrier on chapter 15 either, since he and the convoy start on the opposite sides of the map.

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8 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

And get an Angelic Robe, and an Elysian Whip, and steal a Speedwing in Ephraim's route. Enhanced vision in two fog of war maps is pretty nice too. So I'm gonna have to call bullshit on this.

Chest keys bruh. I'm not super familiar with Ephraim's route but still, an Energy ring and a Speedwing isn't a whole lot to be proud of. Fog of War vision is useless because the player already knows what is out there, and our staff users want to spam torch staves for their staff rank anyway.

6 hours ago, SpaceSamurai said:

The best endgame warp user is D-tier? Wtf?

5 hours ago, SpaceSamurai said:

Just spam barriers and he will reach A staves by the final chapter, even if he doesn't, he still serves well as a combat unit, I would say he is better than both Lute and Artur. 

After the dessert, the game can be completed in less than 20 turns. It takes 28 uses of barrier. So... he isn't gonna warp a damn thing.

Artur and Lute are available from Chapter 4 and 5 respectively. That's 10 more chapters of availability and they can actually reach warp.

6 hours ago, SpaceSamurai said:

I swear Joshua is much much better than Gilliam. Joshua is the best boss killer in your team until at least chapter 9. Gilliam is awful, low mov and meh offense = auto low tier, his durability isn't impressive either, his speed is so bad that he even gets doubled by some occasional bandits on chapter 2. 

What? He has 5 move and all of the bosses either have Lances or are Novala who gets killed by Javalins from our 7-8 move units. Seth, Franz, Nessie, Eirika, and Garcia are all better at killing bosses. This isn't FE6 Rutger. Joshua is actually really bad. Plus his promo item is better used on 2-3 other units. Gilliam gets a horse and can use Javalins and Hand Axes.

1 hour ago, Nobody said:

Can Saleh really reach warp on Ephraim's route when he starts with C rank staves and the warp skip begins at chapter 16, just one map after he joins? It's not like he can spam barrier on chapter 15 either, since he and the convoy start on the opposite sides of the map.

Nope. Saleh (Ephraim) won't reach warp.

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It seems I underestimated Ephraim!Duessel's ability to double without needing the Speedwing so I could see him in Low B/ High C I guess, I would probably have put him Low C/ High D before, I definitely think he should be below Garcia though.

I agree with a few of the things Hawk King said, in particular -

  • Eirika!Saleh: I agree he probably shouldn't be in the same tier as Franz/Vanessa they have virtually the entire game whereas he has about half the game, still A tier though.
  • Natasha: Should be a bit below Moulder but not much.
  • Innes: He probably could be seperated by route as well, and should drop to maybe C on Eirika route and probably Low D on Ephraim's route.
  • Joshua: I agree he's too high being Swordlocked when you already have Eirika, I never really understood why people seem to rate this guy so much especially when Garcia is a better Hero Crest candidate. There's no way he's the second best boss killer earlygame either.
  • Neimi: E does seem a bit harsh for her actually, she starts out shit but if you actually use her and she promotes she can be pretty decent and she has a horse, still shouldn't be higher than D though.
  • Colm/Rennac: I don't agree with Rennac being above Colm but I think they could probably be moved closer together.

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1 hour ago, Hawk King said:

Chest keys bruh. I'm not super familiar with Ephraim's route but still, an Energy ring and a Speedwing isn't a whole lot to be proud of. Fog of War vision is useless because the player already knows what is out there, and our staff users want to spam torch staves for their staff rank anyway.

The only two chest keys you could have at that point are from Ephraim's side chapter, and they might've been used up (not to mention the Angelic Robe chest being much closer to Eirika's side than where Ephraim and co. enter the game). Also, there's an Ocean Seal in a chest on Ephraim route, and maybe some other stuff, that you're gonna need him to get since you can't even buy chest keys until after the next chapter anyway. Also, I'm not seeing Rennac above Colm when he's not even that good a fighter.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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14 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

The only two chest keys you could have at that point are from Ephraim's side chapter, and they might've been used up (not to mention the Angelic Robe chest being much closer to Eirika's side than where Ephraim and co. enter the game). Also, there's an Ocean Seal in a chest on Ephraim route, and maybe some other stuff, that you're gonna need him to get since you can't even buy chest keys until after the next chapter anyway. Also, I'm not seeing Rennac above Colm when he's not even that good a fighter.

Rennac can kill Caellach with a Killing edge while stealing the Hoplon guard and getting the desert item at the same time. Killing edges makes his combat quite good, but I will admit that I might be overselling him a bit.

Regardless, Colm and Rennac should be in the same tier. One right above the other.

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20 minutes ago, Hawk King said:

Rennac can kill Caellach with a Killing edge while stealing the Hoplon guard and getting the desert item at the same time. Killing edges makes his combat quite good, but I will admit that I might be overselling him a bit.

Regardless, Colm and Rennac should be in the same tier. One right above the other.

What difficulty are you playing on? Because I'm not seeing Rennac and his 10 strength killing Caellach any time soon (he does 2 damage to his 50 HP - a 25HKO - and doesn't even double him, while Caellach 2HKOs him in return. And did I mention Caellach is on a fort?).

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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