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How can Corrin be improved as a character?

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I'm pretty sure everyone in this forum knows that Corrin is a lacklustre protagonist. This was disappointing as when i first saw the fates trailers, they fleshed him/her (your preference) out as pretty bad-ass (class wise and story wise).

So, what changes do we need to make to Corrin to make him a semi-competent lord?

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Give him/her a backbone, and don't make the people around Corrin break theirs in order to make Corrin feel like a special snowflake.

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31 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Give him/her a backbone, and don't make the people around Corrin break theirs in order to make Corrin feel like a special snowflake.

Yes, Corrin was a very special snowflake. It was annoying.

 

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4 minutes ago, Michelaar said:

This is like the.... I don't know.. 30th thread of this?

I'm pretty new here so i didn't know, sorry.

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Take Garon's advice and make them suffer for their stupidity when they screw up. One of the most common complaints I hear about them is that while they make mistakes there are never any consequences.

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2 hours ago, Slumber said:

Give him/her a backbone, and don't make the people around Corrin break theirs in order to make Corrin feel like a special snowflake.

I like that one. I think that'd be one of the best changes they could make to him/her. I mean, by the end of the day, he/she'd end up more as a Draconic Eliwood, but it's a step in the right direction. Another change I'd suggest is...well, personality traits that make Corrin stick out more. Like, instead of being a lord who fights despite his/her distaste for violence, which can sum up most of the lords in this series, just make Corrin a lord who sees war as an opportunity. A chance to improve his/her skills in combat, to protect those he/she cares about, constantly shooting to be stronger and stronger to be able fight in any and every battle ever, with a sort of, "I do it, so you don't have to" mentality. That, at least would be something unique to me. Oh, and another other change I'd suggest is to make him/her an Axe Lord, but that's a change on the default class, not character. Still, that'd a be good idea too.

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1 hour ago, Florete said:

Corrin can be improved as a character by making her a character.

Definitely 

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I know this is controversial, but I like the groundwork for Corrin's character. Corrin is naive, sensitive, emotionally weak, he has no idea how the world works, and when he does leave his isolated fortress he learn that he has two families who hate each other and he's forced to pick between them. She isn't conventionally tough like most Lords/protagonists are, she's allowed to cry and does so repeatedly, and try as she might she fails more often than she succeeds on a personal level (in Birthright and Conquest anyway). In the end, the family and kingdom he doesn't side with is ruined and several of his loved ones are dead, but he manages to remain somewhat optimistic anyway.

But how do we make Corrin better? First of all, don't make her an avatar. Corrin has a good baseline, but the writers can't take advantage of it because Corrin, as an avatar, is meant to appeal to everyone and so they can't focus on his development. They can keep the male/female choice if they really want to, but otherwise don't make them customizable.

Second, it makes sense in-universe for the royals to coddle Corrin, but out-of-universe it reduces their ability to grow as a person. Make it so that Corrin can stand on her own and for the royals to recognize that, especially in Revelation since she spends half the game without them anyway.

Finally, Corrin and Azura's relationship is actually written well, so focus more on that and make it canon please.

Edited by Lightchao42

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7 minutes ago, Lightchao42 said:

I know that everyone will hate me for this, but I like the groundwork for Corrin's character. Corrin is naive, sensitive, emotionally weak, he has no idea how the world works, and when he does leave his isolated fortress he learn that he has two families who hate each other and he's forced to pick between them. She isn't conventionally tough like most Lords/protagonists are, she's allowed to cry and does so repeatedly, and try as she might she fails more often than she succeeds on a personal level (in Birthright and Conquest anyway). In the end, the family and kingdom he doesn't side with is ruined and several of his loved ones are dead, but he manages to remain somewhat optimistic anyway.

But how do we make Corrin better? First of all, don't make her an avatar. Corrin has a good baseline, but the writers can't take advantage of it because Corrin, as an avatar, is meant to appeal to everyone and so they can't focus on his development. They can keep the male/female choice if they really want to, but otherwise don't make them customizable.

Second, it makes sense in-universe for the royals to coddle Corrin, but out-of-universe it reduces their ability to grow as a person. Make it so that Corrin can stand on her own and for the royals to recognize that, especially in Revelation since she spends half the game without them anyway.

Finally, Corrin and Azura's relationship is actually written well, so focus more on that and make it canon please.

I agree with this post entirely. The premise works due to his/her upbringing but her general personality isn't necessarily main character materiel due to her being to much of a victim, he/she should of been involved in the plot in some way but shouldn't have taken centre stage. Also i do find it a bit ironic that a blank slate (at the start) had little development other than "PEACE PLS" and "SAMA-KUN-DONO PLS NO". 

Also CorrinXAzura = Best Power Couple Don't Sue Me Please.

 

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A big issue with Corrin is that she trusts people way too easily, despite the fact that she spent a good portion of her early life in isolation. She shouldn't trust the Nohrian royals because of the kidnapping, but on the other hand, she wouldn't feel any strong emotions towards the Hoshidans because although they are her siblings through blood, she doesn't have any strong emotional bonds with any of the Hoshidan royals, and thus no incentive to side with them. Throughout Birthright and Conquest, Corrin should show a distrust with either the Nohrian or Hoshidan royals, depending on the game. Distrust towards the Nohrians would be caused by the fact that they had been deceiving her her entire life, and the distrust towards the Hoshidans would be caused by the lack of emotional attachment.

Also, this is a little off-topic, but Corrin gaining the Yato should've been a bit more than "We found it in this thing that broke so it's yours now."

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Corrin has a good base but from there he has a lot to improve on.

-Don't make them anime dragon Jesus: This concerns how they behave and others treat them. Don't make them the all loving uniter who trusts everyone. Don't have everyone treat him like he's the center of the universe. Corrin would be better as a point of view character with deep personal stakes but not be the focus of so many interactions between major characters.

-Expand on the origin of his dragon form (you only learn about this in DLC, and hardly anyone comments on it) or cut it completely.

-Make Corrin blood related to the Hoshidans. Remove all sibling S supports.

-Have Corrin start out sheltered and coddled but have him grow into his own character. He should grow more cynical and pragmatic in Conquest and hone his idealism in Birthright.

-Make him proactive. A large problem in Conquest is bad things happening to Corrin, and him clenching his fists in his pockets, not doing anything about it. Corrin is a hero, of light or dark, and heroes take action.

-Have him engage his siblings more. There should be some mistrust towards the Nohrian sibslings that didn't tell him about his real family. He should take a while to warm up to the Hoshidans because they're strangers from a foreign culture.

 

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Give Corrin better reasons for choosing either side. If he's going to join Birthright it should be because he's completely enraged that he has been lied to his whole life, and that he has been swayed by the Hoshidians that he is their real sibling, and that the time he has spent in Hoshido he has seen a better kingdom and world than the one Garon built. If he's going to join Conquest it should be because he still doesn' trust his Hoshidian "siblings", and that he may have been tricked and mind washed from when he was hit over the head by Rinka, but he shouldn't trust his Nohrian siblings completely either he should just accept them because he realized that's all he can do for now, and it's probably the more rational option. Hoshidan Corrin is proud, angry, and defiant while Nohrian Corrin is highly skeptical, and involves his tactical mind in all things.

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Making Corrin an avatar might've helped build upon some of the success Awakening found with a general audience but I can't help but feel the story would be improved if Corrin was not an avatar. 

There are a couple of good ideas here I liked. 

One of them: 

On 11/1/2017 at 12:07 AM, NekoKnight said:

-Expand on the origin of his dragon form (you only learn about this in DLC, and hardly anyone comments on it) or cut it completely.

I especially found their treatment of Corrin's dragon form lack luster and notably absent. 

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It depends on the Corrin:

Conquest-Just go all the way with the villain protagonist angle. Conquest already has the hints of Corrin siding with the aggresssors since they're the family and home he actually knows over strangers. Get rid of Azura in this path and make her Corrin's rival as the Nohrian who went native. Make it that Hoshido goes on the offensive against Nohr past a certain point and does serious damage to their enemy, pushing Corrin to carry out the invasion to pacify them. If Anankos and his scheme with Corrin is still a thing then have Corrin's actions determine whether Anankos' plot to turn Corrin into a puppet of his succeeds (acting like a nightmare to Hoshido makes Anankos seize control of Corrin, trying to walk a higher road despite your allegiance lets Corrin keep her body).

Birthright-Change the circumstances of Corrin defecting (no Garon being a ridiculous cartoon villain, even if he's hostile to Corrin he can not make it obvious that he tried to have the wannabe killed). Corrin is more pensive about fighting Nohr overall instead of his siblings.

Either-Corrin's not Anankos' child, Kaze's background for joining Corrin on Conquest needs to get changed or he needs to go back to Hoshido once the invasion begins unless S-Ranked.

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1 hour ago, Kalken said:

Either-Corrin's not Anankos' child, Kaze's background for joining Corrin on Conquest needs to get changed or he needs to go back to Hoshido once the invasion begins unless S-Ranked.

I agree that Kaze's reasoning behind joining Corrin for Conquest should change, but I think S-Ranked is a little too steep an asking price for him to stick around, A-Ranked would make more so that the player isn't forced to marry the two of them if they wanted them to have other partners. I know I sound like a shipper, but I'm thinking in terms of making the player feel like they have control over the choices they make in the game and not the other way around. Maybe this mentality is getting in the way of good storytelling, but while I really do love a good story in my video games it shouldn't be more important than a satisfying gameplay experience. If you're prioritizing story then you might as well just write a book or make a movie/tv show instead of a video game.

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The story of Fates is essentially a weird self-insert incest fanfiction written by a horny twelve year old.  Recommendations: either start from scratch and actually make a decent story, or go full-out fanservice like Senran Kagura.

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One of the biggest issues with Corrin is that he/she blatantly spells out so much stuff to the player: stuff that should have been left to he player alone to figure out. For example, in Conquest Chapter 8 after rescuing Azura, Corrin tells the player that Azura is acting like she isn't Elise's sister, which surprise surprise, turns out to be true. Spelling out the foreshadowing of a scene IMMEDIATELY after it happens is a terrible literary decision that is even made worse by the fact that Corrin is a self-insert and should be leaving things like this more open to the player.

I would have liked to see more scenes with Corrin's Dragon form and its development. Its only really brought up once and barely mentioned again in the main plot.  Shame too since it could have led to some cool chapters centered around its development. 

I don't think Corrin is too terrible otherwise. Most of the flaws the plot have are more of a result of Anankos and The Invisible Kingdom rather than Corrin imo.

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12 hours ago, TheGoodHoms said:

I agree that Kaze's reasoning behind joining Corrin for Conquest should change, but I think S-Ranked is a little too steep an asking price for him to stick around, A-Ranked would make more so that the player isn't forced to marry the two of them if they wanted them to have other partners. I know I sound like a shipper, but I'm thinking in terms of making the player feel like they have control over the choices they make in the game and not the other way around. Maybe this mentality is getting in the way of good storytelling, but while I really do love a good story in my video games it shouldn't be more important than a satisfying gameplay experience. If you're prioritizing story then you might as well just write a book or make a movie/tv show instead of a video game.

It was just a suggestion. The point is Kaze not only sticks around with Corrin after it's announced they're invading Hoshido, but he's never actually shown with any doubts or guilt over going to war against his country, close friend, and family. Even if you accept the claim he's trying to atone for his failure by joining Corrin and say it's not a problem to stick around when Corrin's not actively working to crush Hoshido, that raises the question of what's he staying around for after Corrin has reached the point of actually threatening Hoshido. Corrin and Azura (I'll get into her) don't tell their lackeys about their plan to stop the war on Hoshido by invading Hoshido so Kaze's in the dark about that.

Of course, the issue of the Big Plan is but an extension of Azura being a polluting character in the narrative. She enters it already more or less knowing all that's needed to know but the narrative has to contrive excuses for her to not tell what she knows to those who can do something about the Anankos Problem. She stops Corrin from having an arc where he resolves to end the war through any means necessary by bursting in with her crystal ball then coming up with a ridiculous plan that Corrin follows.

A character who can be compared to Conquest Corrin is Radiant Dawn's Micaiah. A key difference between them is that for all the issues in RD's plot, you can't deny Micaiah has an aura of agency. The Blood Pact forces her hand, but she's the one who's planning out the Daein war effort. She's the one who orders a burning oil trap that almost kills her younger sister (which is noted as being an atrocity). Corrin's quest has a major vibe of her being a lackey of Azura or otherwise having her hand held as she lurches from disaster after disaster until it's time to finish the game.

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3 hours ago, Kalken said:

A character who can be compared to Conquest Corrin is Radiant Dawn's Micaiah. A key difference between them is that for all the issues in RD's plot, you can't deny Micaiah has an aura of agency. The Blood Pact forces her hand, but she's the one who's planning out the Daein war effort. She's the one who orders a burning oil trap that almost kills her younger sister (which is noted as being an atrocity). Corrin's quest has a major vibe of her being a lackey of Azura or otherwise having her hand held as she lurches from disaster after disaster until it's time to finish the game.

Another key difference is that as soon as Micaiah learns about the Blood Pact, she starts researching a way to undo it. Corrin and Azura make no effort to work arround the Valla Curse.

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I mean, it could be acceptable if Corrin was presented as an observer who assists another character (like say, Takumi) instead of having to be this savior for the Fatesland and redeemer for Nohr. As it stands now, the game is in this akward position where it both tries to frame Corrin as the one to save the continent yet also repeatedly goes out of its way to make him look as ineffectual as it can.

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The simplest way to improve Corrin as a character is to make them face real consequences for their actions. As it stands, there aren't any real consequences to the stupid stuff they do because either someone else tells them, "it's not your fault, it's okay to be this way" or they make themselves the victim of actions that they have personally caused. And the game's narrative itself believes that Corrin is not at fault and so all the characters around them react thusly.

I would not hate Conquest or Nohr!Corrin nearly so much if at the end Hinoka and Sakura didn't forgive them, if Takumi didn't apologize for rightfully distrusting them, if Ryoma didn't stab himself to save them. Basically, Corrin's actions on Conquest, regardless of intent, and the results of those actions should have made the Hoshidan siblings hate them in the end. But in the end, Hinoka just forgives them ... just like that? She's just very awkwardly written around the concept of absolving Corrin of their wrongdoings, and it makes her come off as worse of a character for it.

Finally, that brings me to my second point: make Corrin less "special". It's fine if Hinoka was motivated to retrieve Corrin, it's fine if Elise and Camilla consider Corrin to be their favorite, but that shouldn't be the sole basis of their character. If Corrin is invading her country and killing her siblings, Hinoka should not still be pining for Corrin and she should give a shit about her other siblings. Camilla should fight Corrin less because "if I can't have you no one will" but more because of "I still love you, but you're now the enemy and I will fight for my country". Elise can still be reluctant to fight you, but not willing to just help you out, either. Let people have a life and motivations outside of Corrin, seriously ... it's weird.

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To make Corrin a great character, a lot would need to be changed. While it's understandable that Corrin would be a little naïve, Corrin was way too naïve. I was hoping that they would have developed a better sense of judgment, but that really wasn't the case. They relied too heavily on their siblings and were too trusting in certain situations; for instance, take the ordeal with Zola in Izumo. After they defeated him, they had the perfect chance to kill him. But instead, Corrin decides to welcome him in, as if he wasn't a serious threat minutes ago.

But one of the biggest problems surrounding Corrin is not the fact that they are too trusting of others, but that others are too trusting of Corrin. It feels as if everyone rushed to put their trust in Corrin, and I find that to be really unrealistic. The royal siblings were especially bad for this. They decided to basically make Corrin in charge of everything as soon as they recruited them? Even though they know more about the situation than they do? I thought that was poor writing and gave way too much to the main character, who wasn't great to start with.

But despite those flaws, Corrin had aspects that could have made them a really great character. Corrin's past and bloodline, as well as the fact that they can transform into a freaking dragon, could have been better incorporated into the story to make the story and Corrin more interesting, but IS failed to really focus on that (and when they did choose to focus on those facts, it was poorly written as well).

I still actually really love Fates, but I just wish Corrin had been better written.

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