Jump to content
thecrimsonflash

Opinions on the handling of the branded between games

Recommended Posts

I was thinking, do you think the branded were handled well in PoR before their expansion in RD and was their expansion in RD satisfying, I am mainly asking from a writing perspective, I think it was good, but I want a second opinion.

I guess that you could say that I am mainly asking if a watered down introduction of a piece of lore in an early game but going further in a later game is a good idea, this could also bleed into if the blood pact would have been better if introduced in PoR somehow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, thecrimsonflash said:

I was thinking, do you think the branded were handled well in PoR before their expansion in RD

Not really. In POR, the Branded felt more like background world-building information than a serious storyline that the writers were pursuing. They don't really give much information about them, just a few lines of dialogue here and there. And then, come RD, they suddenly become a huge focus for much of the game's plot. It was quite jarring from a narrative perspective.

As for the blood pact, I think it's probably a good idea that it was introduced when and where it was. Introducing it in POR would have reduced it's impact as a plot device.

Edited by GamerX51
Point clarification.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem with the Blood Pact isn't really when it was introduced, it's more:

1. Its use as a plot device is to make two sets of "good guys" fight each other -the big issue.  Rather than an actual moral issue of Micaiah and Ike both fighting for what they think is right, Micaiah is basically forced into an antagonist role.  

2. We really don't know the specifics of how it works and who it affects.  Is it anyone born in Daein?  What about travellers/caravan people?  Born to Daein parents, ie Ike and Mist?  Anyone who views themself as a citizen in Daein?  Anyone who happens to be in Daein at the time the curse is invoked?  

Edited by Glaceon Mage

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, GamerX51 said:

And then, come RD, they suddenly become a huge focus for much of the game's plot.

Sure Ahlmedha goes on about her and Ashnard having a child for a bit, and believes that child to be Pelleas, but that's hardly what I'd call "a huge focus of the game's plot". In fact, most of the talk about the Branded dies down after Part 1 is complete, only to resurface in Part 4 when we learn of Amy not being affected by Ashera's petrification and about the brand Zelgius carries (neither of which are really that big in terms of plot points) .

Edited by NinjaMonkey

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like the idea of the Branded. Which in retrospect is similar, though quite distinct from the Holy Blood concept of prior and later games.

I never really considered how it went from a background detail to a core main story element in the next. I would not call it a bad move though.

There are a couple problems with the Branded however:

  1. There is the matter of not seeing Branded persecution. We're told plenty about the discrimination, Nasir holds it over Soren once, and Micaiah continually fears it, but we are never directly shown it. Soren is not so a good chance for that, unless in a hypothetical remake the 4-Final-5 Convo suddenly got a flashback (and this would apply only to Laguz-Branded bigotry, not the Beorc kind); Micaiah would be better, being the main character of part of the game, but I think that since she has a reputation already by 1-Prologue, it'd have to be a flashback again. Unless they went and add new chapters to the start of the Part 1.
  2. The second issue is the magic physics behind Brandedness. Namely why does the Laguz male lose their powers, and only after the child is born? If they made it so it was lost upon sexual contact sans conception, it'd make more sense. The problem is the 2nd playthrough 4-F Base Convo with Nasir and Gareth which explains this, says there were romantic couples between Beorc and Laguz prior to Lehran and Altina, yet Lehran has to be the first to lose their powers, so as to let their child be born and then the Branded truth covered up.
    1. Related to this is how it is that it seems only firstborn females have the Brand in the Apostle line. A subissue which is more finicky.

 

Some would further add the Brand do harm to Micaiah, Soren, and Zelgius.:

  • Micaiah some would say is lost as a character in her special powers, which come from being Branded, and a special Branded at that.
  • On Zelgius, besides being Branded granting him his awesomeness, the reason he became what he did, is owed to Branded insecurity, which is a pathetic, last minute sympathy play on the part of IS, it could be argued. 
  • On Soren the effects are less pronounced, but if having Dheginsea's genetics do anything for magic and brains, that can undermine his own merit.
Edited by Interdimensional Observer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

The second issue is the magic physics behind Brandedness. Namely why does the Laguz male lose their powers, and only after the child is born? If they made it so it was lost upon sexual contact sans conception, it'd make more sense. The problem is the 2nd playthrough 4-F Base Convo with Nasir and Gareth which explains this, says there were romantic couples between Beorc and Laguz prior to Lehran and Altina, yet Lehran has to be the first to lose their powers, so as to let their child be born and then the Branded truth covered up.

While I agree with this, I think it was this way to not push an M rating because if it's lost from sexual contact how would they explain it in a T rated way?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The information given to you about the branded in POR is probably considered more background information about the world. to really have a good understanding of what they are/how they exist you really gotta go into support conversations unlike in RD where its extremely relevant for many characters and causes many conversations/conflicts. I think they did a good job from a writing standpoint if your really into Fire emblem (like myself) where dulging farther into the games is such a satisfying feeling while a casual player may see it as unnecessary information and not care to much about it.

 

so to answer your question yes i think from a writing standpoint they did a fantastic job. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Dragoncat said:

While I agree with this, I think it was this way to not push an M rating because if it's lost from sexual contact how would they explain it in a T rated way?

I mean they could still say that both sexes lose their powers at the child's conception, if I was to be truly cynical, lehran didn't lose his powers because they wanted him to be excited about the first laguz/beorc child but then wanted a big shock after the child was born, and almeda lost her powers because they wanted ashnard to be excited then subsequently disappointed with soren to spur him on to find another black dragon to do stuff with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Related to this is how it is that it seems only firstborn females have the Brand in the Apostle line. A subissue which is more finicky.

This bothers me so much (as well as other factors relating to the assassination) I've all but abandoned the idea that Micaiah and Sanaki are sisters. I am willing to compromise and say Sanaki is Micaiah's half-sister through her father, so she isn't a descendant of Lehran.

14 hours ago, Glaceon Mage said:

The problem with the Blood Pact isn't really when it was introduced, it's more:

1. Its use as a plot device is to make two sets of "good guys" fight each other -the big issue.  Rather than an actual moral issue of Micaiah and Ike both fighting for what they think is right, Micaiah is basically forced into an antagonist role.  

2. We really don't know the specifics of how it works and who it affects.  Is it anyone born in Daein?  What about travellers/caravan people?  Born to Daein parents, ie Ike and Mist?  Anyone who views themself as a citizen in Daein?  Anyone who happens to be in Daein at the time the curse is invoked?  

Working on a story that addresses Kilvas's Blood Pact. Point 2 is check, point 1 is... I want to say check? It's not much, and I haven't gotten to the point of writing it, but it's development, not a plot point.

1 hour ago, thecrimsonflash said:

I mean they could still say that both sexes lose their powers at the child's conception

This is what I'm going with. Doesn't really make a ton of sense for males, but then again, it's not like I have a lot of males to apply it to when considering this.

...Wait a minute, yes I do...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Dragoncat said:

While I agree with this, I think it was this way to not push an M rating because if it's lost from sexual contact how would they explain it in a T rated way?

*Cores a new juicy apple and moves the core back through it in and out continually, pointing to the moisture on the apple's inner surfaces*

 

5 hours ago, thecrimsonflash said:

and almeda lost her powers because they wanted ashnard to be excited then subsequently disappointed with soren to spur him on to find another black dragon to do stuff with.

Ya know this makes me think the Almedha experience is the only reason why after finding out Ena was a dragon that Ashnard didn't try to "try" with her. Not that it'd have worked without a forcing a miscarriage first (how grimdark that'd be).

 

3 hours ago, bethany81707 said:

I am willing to compromise and say Sanaki is Micaiah's half-sister through her father, so she isn't a descendant of Lehran.

Though this then creates the issue of how Micaiah's mother isn't an Apostle. Unless she was a second daughter herself, but then how does a second daughter produce a firstborn with the Brand? And then if she can, has there been multiple Brands at once in Begnion's past? Possible rival Apostles where the two are staring at each other from across a very long dinner table, with insincere smiles, and then one suddenly drops dead of poisoned food and drink? And can third and beyond daughters also produce Brand daughters? And has there ever been a Brand male- the Laguz ancestor was one after all, and that they were simply on the basis of sex denied the highest office in the land and instead had to settle for serving or puppetting at a lower rank, or become some kind of saint? Is it possible Micaiah has fellow Lehran Branded extended family members? Or were they all not being of the directest royal line not immune to Branded persecution and it became assumed a parent committed blasphemy and they both got executed for their crimes with their lines wiped out?

So many possibilities.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Though this then creates the issue of how Micaiah's mother isn't an Apostle.

Because Misaha was still in office.

4 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Unless she was a second daughter herself, but then how does a second daughter produce a firstborn with the Brand? And then if she can, has there been multiple Brands at once in Begnion's past? Possible rival Apostles where the two are staring at each other from across a very long dinner table, with insincere smiles, and then one suddenly drops dead of poisoned food and drink? And can third and beyond daughters also produce Brand daughters? And has there ever been a Brand male- the Laguz ancestor was one after all, and that they were simply on the basis of sex denied the highest office in the land and instead had to settle for serving or puppetting at a lower rank, or become some kind of saint? Is it possible Micaiah has fellow Lehran Branded extended family members? Or were they all not being of the directest royal line not immune to Branded persecution and it became assumed a parent committed blasphemy and they both got executed for their crimes with their lines wiped out?

All good questions. Beyond the scope of my work, though, and probably not something I could even try to answer even here, where I consider the matter objectively and externally.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, bethany81707 said:

Because Misaha was still in office.

I meant after she dies. Wouldn't Begnion pick the next in line rather than wait a decade for the next generation one to be born?

Edited by Interdimensional Observer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I meant after she dies. Wouldn't Begnion pick the next in line rather than wait a decade for the next generation one to be born?

...Oh, right. I was working with a Begnion Senate with a shade more confidence and assumed that Micaiah's mother was killed too in canon. (There has to be a reason Micaiah was snuck out in response.)

In fairness, it's a reasonable explanation. Senate gets a power coup, the people demand an alternative, and the Senate suddenly has to find something to put on the throne and make the people happy. Preferably something that wouldn't do annoying things like try and stop their evil deeds. Like a random five year old child.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, bethany81707 said:

...Oh, right. I was working with a Begnion Senate with a shade more confidence and assumed that Micaiah's mother was killed too in canon. (There has to be a reason Micaiah was snuck out in response.)

So you assume Micaiah was hurriedly given away as a safety measure?

My interpretation has been that she was captured and was going to be killed, but in an act of mercy, chose to make it exposure to the elements in the boondocks or something that would kill her. Unfortunately, a traveling old woman found the mewling infant and took her in instead. Why the heartless Senate and its cronies would resort to semi-mercy at the apex of their corruption? Well that is the hole in my vision of things.

Perhaps yours actually makes more sense. Given a late night house raid, with enough planning, I guess it would be possible to kill the relevant Apostle family members, silence any witnesses, and not spark a civil war due to all effective opposition being curtailed. Would've needed a good deal of work though. To think there weren't any Senators who were Misaha loyalists who disagreed with Lekain and co. and suspected something was off about blaming the Herons, is a bit farfetched. They would've had to have been worked around. So too with the Holy Guard and any other military officials supportive of the Apostle over the Senate. Coups aren't always easy.

Maybe the Extended Script for 4-3, where it mentions the "death" of Sanaki's elder sister, has an extra detail or two about it, but alas, SF doesn't have that chapter translated. All that is said is that she was assassinated, but for Lekain, even if he had no evidence that the baby girl was dead, that she ceased to be in Begnion as the next heir and true Apostle was as good as dead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

My interpretation has been that she was captured and was going to be killed, but in an act of mercy, chose to make it exposure to the elements in the boondocks or something that would kill her. Unfortunately, a traveling old woman found the mewling infant and took her in instead. Why the heartless Senate and its cronies would resort to semi-mercy at the apex of their corruption? Well that is the hole in my vision of things.

I think I considered that once.

9 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Perhaps yours actually makes more sense. Given a late night house raid, with enough planning, I guess it would be possible to kill the relevant Apostle family members, silence any witnesses, and not spark a civil war due to all effective opposition being curtailed. Would've needed a good deal of work though. To think there weren't any Senators who were Misaha loyalists who disagreed with Lekain and co. and suspected something was off about blaming the Herons, is a bit farfetched. They would've had to have been worked around. So too with the Holy Guard and any other military officials supportive of the Apostle over the Senate. Coups aren't always easy.

For the Senate, Lekain's entry in one of the artbooks claims there are meant to be seven Senators. Lekain, Numida and Valtome are obviously for it, Hetzel is suspicious but too cowardly to act, Sephiran was out on some business and didn't learn about the assassination until the people told him (and whatever suspicion he had was quickly enveloped by the threats to his and his people's wellbeing), Oliver probably wasn't informed of the plan ahead of time, and number seven is never given a name. If he's the one with the tiny little moustache from early part 3, he's probably on Team Evil. (Though this doesn't explain the other two in 3-2).

For the Holy Guard, presumably at least one of them is the one who managed to get Micaiah to Daein, and then the rest of them are stuck with an uphill battle and a people who probably aren't in the mood for more wanton destruction in the aftermath of the Massacre. But their voices would be loudest in trying to get an Apostle back in power.

 

...It says a lot about how confusing the mechanics of the Branded are that I take unstable politics to take away the chance Sanaki is Branded at all as an easier solution. At least I can fudge together an explanation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

This bothers me so much (as well as other factors relating to the assassination) I've all but abandoned the idea that Micaiah and Sanaki are sisters. I am willing to compromise and say Sanaki is Micaiah's half-sister through her father, so she isn't a descendant of Lehran.

But Micaiah's father was a descendant of Lehran, wasn't he? If Misaha was survived by a daughter, that daughter should have been the next Apostle after Misaha's death. Since that didn't happen, isn't it more likely that Misaha was survived only by a son and a granddaughter?

So I agree that Micaiah and Sanaki being half-sisters through their father makes just as much sense, but it also makes them both Misaha's granddaughters (and two of Lehran's descendants).

Edited by Paper Jam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The twist with Micaiah and Sanaki being sisters is just poorly done. It doesn't really serve any purpose besides introducing a "lost princess" element of Micaiah's character she didn't ever need. Raises questions on how she doesn't show signs that she remembers her family considering how much older she obviously is than Sanaki.

If we must have Micaiah be a blood relative of Lehrah, it'd be easier to say that she's just a rogue descendant rather than Sanaki's sister.  

Edited by Eryon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Paper Jam said:

But Micaiah's father was a descendant of Lehran, wasn't he? If Misaha was survived by a daughter, that daughter should have been the next Apostle after Misaha's death. Since that didn't happen, isn't it more likely that Misaha was survived only by a son and a granddaughter?

There is no logical reason a male shouldn't be eligible for the powers of the Apostle. The first one was a male, after all. I just assumed (with evidence I'm sure is probably there somewhere but I wouldn't have the foggiest idea where) that the Apostles tended to turn up female, so listed Mr Altina as the non-Lehran descendant. I'm writing a story that goes into this topic, I need to pick one.

3 hours ago, Eryon said:

The twist with Micaiah and Sanaki being sisters is just poorly done. It doesn't really serve any purpose besides introducing a "lost princess" element of Micaiah's character she didn't ever need. Raises questions on how she doesn't show signs that she remembers her family considering how much older she obviously is than Sanaki.

She only needs to be about ten or so years older to still be infantile at the time of the Massacre. It's perfectly reasonable for her to be both.

But yeah, your first point is spot on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's hard to believe she would have had no memories of her family. Especially when you recall she should have had a caretaker or at least a guardian who got her to safety.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Eryon said:

It's hard to believe she would have had no memories of her family. Especially when you recall she should have had a caretaker or at least a guardian who got her to safety.

She was an infant when Misaha was murdered, and she would have been taken out of Begnion not long after that. Infantile amnesia could easily account for her lack of memory of her parents (or anything else prior to her move to Daein, for that matter).

Edited by Paper Jam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Eryon said:

It's hard to believe she would have had no memories of her family. Especially when you recall she should have had a caretaker or at least a guardian who got her to safety.

Quote

Muarim:
“No thanks are needed. It’s rude of me to ask, but do you know anything about the circumstances of your birth?”

Micaiah:
“No. I know nothing of my parents. But just before she died, the old woman who raised me told me what the brand was and what it meant.”

(Image of Micaiah’s brand)

Micaiah:
“This is proof that the blood of both beorc and laguz course through me. And so, I am anathema to both. She told me never to let anyone see it, and to be always on my guard.”

Muarim:
“Wise advice…”

Micaiah:
“I’ve avoided people most of my life to conceal my brand…and my powers. But there’s no way to hide how very slowly I age. I just keep moving through Daein. The same holds true now… I won’t be able to stay in this army long.”

...Honestly, I'm not sure the author of this passage was aware of Micaiah's heritage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/25/2019 at 5:39 AM, bethany81707 said:

There is no logical reason a male shouldn't be eligible for the powers of the Apostle. The first one was a male, after all. I just assumed (with evidence I'm sure is probably there somewhere but I wouldn't have the foggiest idea where) that the Apostles tended to turn up female, so listed Mr Altina as the non-Lehran descendant. I'm writing a story that goes into this topic, I need to pick one.

Altina is female. Just wanted to get that out there. Not sure if you're talking about in like a fanfic or something but in the games Altina is a woman.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

Altina is female. Just wanted to get that out there. Not sure if you're talking about in like a fanfic or something but in the games Altina is a woman. 

Altina is a female, but she has none of Lehran's ancestral powers ascribed to the office of Begnion- those belong to Lehran, for obvious reasons.

Altina would be the first Empress, but it's a minor character point that Apostle and Empress are different titles that are typically held by the same person.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...