Lapis in comparison to Chloe and Kagetsu. Why I think Lapis is better or at least just as good.

[DaveCozy]

2 hours ago, FashionEmblem said:

Finally, since I'm harping on SP, whom should receive SP favoritism around Lapis' join time? Citrinne and Alcryst join at the same time, and Amber's 800 SP one chapter later isn't dissimilar (it's difficult to get him 200 SP in Chapter 9 alone)—all of these characters will struggle to get Canter. But if we gave any one of them Micaiah Great Sacrifice favoritism, Alcryst has exclusive access to Luna (which I find very good, albeit gambling, with high enemy defense in maddening) and Citrinne just has stupidly high magic (great Dire Thunder user). Amber is the weakest here, but is also the closest to Canter. I think even just favoring him with bond fragments for Mercurius or Recover might be just enough for him to get Canter in time without needing Micaiah (thus without denying Canter to another character). I emphasize Canter so much because it's one of the few things that gives the early units a chance to stand-out against their mid-game replacements.

Personally I don't think giving any of the Brodia units Canter is necessary. Citrinne would arguably want it most if running Dire Thunder, without that ring though she could just equip Corrin for flame terrain and Draconic Hex Thorons instead. The rest would probably rather keep SP saved up for speed+3, Dual Assist if any reclass/stay as backups, or Resolve in Jade's or Diamant's case.

I theorize that even Lapis could get Bld+3 early instead, and then later get Speed+3 too. Only if combo'd I think that Build+3 has value being inherited.

I'm currently running Wyvern Chloé in Maddening with both Speed+3 and Build+3 equipped, using a Sigurd engraved and refined Brave Lance+1. Works quite well engaged with Eirika particularly. I imagine Lapis could do something similar too since she's close stats wise.

Edited February 24, 2023 by DaveCozy

[FashionEmblem]

47 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

Of course while I only can speak from my experience and its not like do LTC runs or anything like that. But the reason I favor Lapis (and I mention it in this post but talked about it more in then reddit post I made) Is that I believe Lapis to be one of the best units for those resources cause she can offer you something that no other unit can aside from a trained Chloe and that's doubling sword fliers and myrmidon. Which extended into the point of this post which was presenting a arugment on why it could be better to use her over Chloe given there similarities and respective usefulness when they join. Further extending that in how both Lapis and Chloe get access to a better class eariler then Kagetsu does for not much of a difference in performance if any.    

Over what chapters does doubling these speedsters hold true? Early on fliers give me little issue since I can one-shot them with Steel Bows. They start causing trouble when promoted, but by that point I don't think Chloé nor Lapis are doubling the sword variants for Griffins, especially using heavier weapons to compensate for their lower strength. Swordfighters I put in a similar category since doubling Swordmasters and Heroes isn't really happening and, while not one-shots with bows, don't really give me trouble unpromoted. Only chapter I can think of where Swordfighters are particularly scary is Chapter 5 where they can double and one-round some of the backline, but staying out of their range as they initially ignore Louis then go back to him for chain attack damage fixes that issue. At best I think my Chloé (and likely Lapis, by extension) can avoid being doubled by these speedsters, not doubling them. With Speedtaker you can double such enemies, but is quite expensive to inherit. You can run Lyn, but then I think you're saying that Lyn is good rather than Chloé or Lapis are good. I personally prioritize Lyn for coverts since I like the extra range on Astra Storm especially to kill off distant fliers or aggro distant enemies (and sometimes kill non-fliers with some luck on Luna).

Also, Kagetsu has like 2 and a sliver chapters where he can't reclass to anything besides bow knight—I don't think that's a big deal. And personally I still don't think a wyvern or hero are really my priority for Chapter 8. I'd rather spend time setting up some staff bots on promotion (Chloé and Citrinne/Céline, usually). Then Lapis maybe gets the third Master Seal for Chapter 9, but getting a Hand Axe on Diamant or archery on Warrior!Boucheron are options too (Boucheron isn't that good, but is better than Etie whom I like benching ASAP). Lapis probably has a good claim by the 4th Master Seal if you want to use her, which you get after Chapter 10 so she has just 3 chapters in a better class than Kagetsu (and Chapter 12 is a pretty easy one, so I don't think it makes much of a difference there). And I'm not saying Kagetsu is so much better than Lapis either, but just better enough that since the game runs you with so few Master Seals and deployment slots for a couple of maps Lapis probably falls behind since she's rather replaceable (if she didn't get replaced by Kagetsu, now she also has to compete with Merrin when deployment opens up for Chapter 14 and axe proficiency is available for everyone).

[FashionEmblem]

36 minutes ago, DaveCozy said:

Personally I don't think giving any of the Brodia units Canter is necessary. Citrinne would arguably want it most if running Dire Thunder, without that ring though she could just equip Corrin for flame terrain and Draconic Hex Thorons instead. The rest would probably rather keep SP saved up for speed+3, Dual Assist if any reclass/stay as backups, or Resolve in Jade's or Diamant's case.

I theorize that even Lapis could get Bld+3 early instead, and then later get Speed+3 too. Only if combo'd I think that Build+3 has value being inherited.

I'm currently running Wyvern Chloé in Maddening with both Speed+3 and Build+3 equipped, using a Sigurd engraved and refined Brave Lance+1. Works quite well engaged with Eirika particularly. I imagine Lapis could do something similar too since she's close stats wise.

I find Canter more valuable than Speed +3 or Build +3 personally. Canter is notable to me because otherwise these characters are more replaceable by the next batch of recruits (who can also get Speed +3). Canter is just such a flexible skill for both offense (attack then move closer to enemies or move into optimal chain attack position) or defense (attack or support then retreat away from the enemy).

Draconic Hex Thorons are great (though they come at the cost of covert fog, which I personally prioritize), but Citrinne also has staves and can heal then Canter to safety if needed regardless of Dire Thunder. Dual Assist is nice, but not better than Canter until you can get Dual Assist + (which happens later in the game after a paralogue) and even then I'd say you want both (I'd rather have Canter and Dual Assist with a late-game upgrade to Dual Assist +, than Dual Assist + without Canter for most of the game).

I agree that tanks won't especially want Canter, since they can run other skills like Vantage, Wrath, Pair-Up, or Resolve. Regarding early Canter, I didn't mention Diamant since he comes with Roy equipped on join and thus has 2 chapters to gain 200 SP, which is quite doable, and Jade has 0 chapters to do so without DLC divine paralogues (or Micaiah spam back in the Jean/Anna paralogues, but that's a super late time to save them for, and I agree she has those better tanking focused skills to gain instead).

[samthedigital]

1 hour ago, FashionEmblem said:

Over what chapters does doubling these speedsters hold true? Early on fliers give me little issue since I can one-shot them with Steel Bows. They start causing trouble when promoted, but by that point I don't think Chloé nor Lapis are doubling the sword variants for Griffins, especially using heavier weapons to compensate for their lower strength.

He's investing heavily into Lapis and having her juggernaut to kill hoards of enemies so that she's far above the leveling curve; or at least that's how interpret it. I will still maintain that it's possible to do this with a variety of units though, and doubling isn't always required. Wrath/Vantage Panette is an example that comes to mind, and there are probably a lot of Dual Guard setups that work too.

[Skyteppelin]

4 hours ago, FashionEmblem said:

Over what chapters does doubling these speedsters hold true? Early on fliers give me little issue since I can one-shot them with Steel Bows. They start causing trouble when promoted, but by that point I don't think Chloé nor Lapis are doubling the sword variants for Griffins, especially using heavier weapons to compensate for their lower strength. Swordfighters I put in a similar category since doubling Swordmasters and Heroes isn't really happening and, while not one-shots with bows, don't really give me trouble unpromoted. Only chapter I can think of where Swordfighters are particularly scary is Chapter 5 where they can double and one-round some of the backline, but staying out of their range as they initially ignore Louis then go back to him for chain attack damage fixes that issue. At best I think my Chloé (and likely Lapis, by extension) can avoid being doubled by these speedsters, not doubling them. With Speedtaker you can double such enemies, but is quite expensive to inherit. You can run Lyn, but then I think you're saying that Lyn is good rather than Chloé or Lapis are good. I personally prioritize Lyn for coverts since I like the extra range on Astra Storm especially to kill off distant fliers or aggro distant enemies (and sometimes kill non-fliers with some luck on Luna).

Also, Kagetsu has like 2 and a sliver chapters where he can't reclass to anything besides bow knight—I don't think that's a big deal. And personally I still don't think a wyvern or hero are really my priority for Chapter 8. I'd rather spend time setting up some staff bots on promotion (Chloé and Citrinne/Céline, usually). Then Lapis maybe gets the third Master Seal for Chapter 9, but getting a Hand Axe on Diamant or archery on Warrior!Boucheron are options too (Boucheron isn't that good, but is better than Etie whom I like benching ASAP). Lapis probably has a good claim by the 4th Master Seal if you want to use her, which you get after Chapter 10 so she has just 3 chapters in a better class than Kagetsu (and Chapter 12 is a pretty easy one, so I don't think it makes much of a difference there). And I'm not saying Kagetsu is so much better than Lapis either, but just better enough that since the game runs you with so few Master Seals and deployment slots for a couple of maps Lapis probably falls behind since she's rather replaceable (if she didn't get replaced by Kagetsu, now she also has to compete with Merrin when deployment opens up for Chapter 14 and axe proficiency is available for everyone).

Well on the next chapter after lapis chapter 8 she can basically solo the right side of the map cause its just those two types of enemy's which no other unit aside from a trained Chloe (really feel like a broken record saying that) can do. Any unit with avoid set ups can not be killed by them but none can kill them back aside from the two mentioned. Also I don't think this needs to be said but its not just that she only kills sword enemy's its that she kills everything not just sword enemy's on EP (and PP really). While sword enemy's are what stop other units from doing that mainly cause they can not double them. So lapis after her join chapter pretty much becomes a monster that can take on any enemy even during EP and just straight up kill them or in the case of armor knights damage them heavily (this will stop happening later of course cause scaling goes crazy) 

And while other units can do parts of that, say Diamant he still can't do it to sword units, so lapis can do better vs everything he can and then add sword units on top of that. This just naturally slots her as the best EP you have cause she can EP anything and sword units will become more prominent as time goes on and even lance units get some pretty nasty spd. Also while I do agree it does feel more like a boon to lyn rather then Lapis I think units Like chloe/kagetsu/ and Lapis are the best lyn users at this point cause it turns them into enemy phase monsters. Merrin is also great but I prefer her to have the role of mage EP but you could just as easily reclass her and lapis around to swap roles.  

[FashionEmblem]

43 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

Well on the next chapter after lapis chapter 8 she can basically solo the right side of the map cause its just those two types of enemy's which no other unit aside from a trained Chloe (really feel like a broken record saying that) can do. Any unit with avoid set ups can not be killed by them but none can kill them back aside from the two mentioned. Also I don't think this needs to be said but its not just that she only kills sword enemy's its that she kills everything not just sword enemy's on EP (and PP really). While sword enemy's are what stop other units from doing that mainly cause they can not double them. So lapis after her join chapter pretty much becomes a monster that can take on any enemy even during EP and just straight up kill them or in the case of armor knights damage them heavily (this will stop happening later of course cause scaling goes crazy) 

And while other units can do parts of that, say Diamant he still can't do it to sword units, so lapis can do better vs everything he can and then add sword units on top of that. This just naturally slots her as the best EP you have cause she can EP anything and sword units will become more prominent as time goes on and even lance units get some pretty nasty spd. Also while I do agree it does feel more like a boon to lyn rather then Lapis I think units Like chloe/kagetsu/ and Lapis are the best lyn users at this point cause it turns them into enemy phase monsters. Merrin is also great but I prefer her to have the role of mage EP but you could just as easily reclass her and lapis around to swap roles.  

According to this source, Chapter 8 Swordfighters have 16 speed on Maddening:

https://fe17.triangleattack.com/maps/the_kingdom_of_might

Lapis starts with 14 speed which can go up by 3 to 17 speed with promotion to Swordmaster. I guess if you cook speed +2 and give her a speed tonic she hits the doubling threshold. Stat boosting wise that's not a big investment, though is Lapis really in the top 2 recipients of Master Seals at that point? Being able to double Swordfighters in Chapter 8 is admittedly cool, but is this generally more useful to my army than getting another staffbot that also has some combat utility unlike Framme? (I usually give Chloé and Citrinne/Céline first dibs).

Even if she inherits Avoid +10, the map doesn't have terrain and enemy hit rates are still reasonable so you are still gambling on her survivability if you enemy phase too many enemies at once. If you have her near someone to get more avoid through her personal (and supports, maybe) you have to plan around the other person not being exposed (since you want Lapis to be the enemy phase target)—that puts a limit on how much Lapis can run into a hoarde of enemies to enemy phase. And is one chapter of big gains enough to really snowball? On Maddening there's a pretty big penalty to exp gains when overleveled so the game is going to force her back down to earth while others catch up.

Also, yeah, I'm on team Lyn for characters with more moderate speed where she pushes them over the top to doubling a wider set of things. Like it's overkill speed on characters like Chloé and Lapis (which helps with avoid, but I also have a specialized Corrin!Yunaka for dodgetanking instead). Plus, I like Lyn on covert units because I have gotten a lot of mileage out of the extra range on Astra Storm and Alcryst gives that with Luna which is sometimes really clutch when luck favors me.

Edited February 25, 2023 by FashionEmblem

[Skyteppelin]

7 minutes ago, FashionEmblem said:

According to this source, Chapter 8 Swordfighters have 16 speed on Maddening:

https://fe17.triangleattack.com/maps/the_kingdom_of_might

Lapis starts with 14 speed which can go up by 3 to 17 speed with promotion to Swordmaster. I guess if you cook speed +2 and give her a speed tonic she hits the doubling threshold. Stat boosting wise that's not a big investment, though is Lapis really in the top 2 recipients of Master Seals at that point? Being able to double Swordfighters in Chapter 8 is admittedly cool, but is this generally more useful to my army than getting another staffbot that also has some combat utility (I usually give Chloé and Citrinne/Céline first dibs).

Even if she inherits Avoid +10, the map doesn't have terrain and enemy hit rates are still reasonable so you are still gambling on her survivability if you enemy phase too many enemies at once. If you have her near someone to get more avoid through her personal (and supports, maybe) you have to plan around the other person not being exposed (since you want Lapis to be the enemy phase target)—that puts a limit on how much Lapis can run into a hoarde of enemies to enemy phase. And is one chapter of big gains enough to really snowball? On Maddening there's a pretty big penalty to exp gains when overleveled so the game is going to force her back down to earth while others catch up.

From my testing dawn engraving makes enemy's have like a below 20% hit rate on her from this chapter till chapter 11 pretty much. I personally prefer strong combat at this point cause Michaia is basically all you need when it comes to staff use at this point in the game and once you lose her you get ivy and then hortensia who are both fantastic. Also this goes for other chapters as well, chapter 9 she can basically solo the lance half of the map (also the axe half but like anyone can do that.) Then in chapter 10 again she can solo ether half by herself. Then she can be your front liner in chapter 11 especially cause of the fast sword enemy's further to the back.  I also personally run marth on her through all of this cause he just compliments her so well giving her everything she needs in one package. 

[samthedigital]

9 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

Also this goes for other chapters as well, chapter 9 she can basically solo the lance half of the map (also the axe half but like anyone can do that.) Then in chapter 10 again she can solo ether half by herself.

Alternatively you can cheese and finish those maps in a turn or two. It does mean that you don't have the time to invest into Lapis, but there are other options. This is part of the reason why people tend to value lower effort units like Kagetsu.

[Anathaco]

40 minutes ago, FashionEmblem said:

I guess if you cook speed +2 and give her a speed tonic she hits the doubling threshold.

Fun fact, tonics and meals actually don't stack for whatever reason. So you'd basically need to either give her a speedwing (and I forget if they give you one at that point outside of the DLC. Probably not though) or stick Marth on her for her to double.

[Skyteppelin]

1 hour ago, samthedigital said:

Alternatively you can cheese and finish those maps in a turn or two. It does mean that you don't have the time to invest into Lapis, but there are other options. This is part of the reason why people tend to value lower effort units like Kagetsu.

Yea I get why people value him, like I said more main focus of my argument is the disparity in there tiers for most people and how its sort of silly to me cause they are so close. (also for both skips at least from my own testing lapis is great way to do them if you want to). But yes I get why people would want to drop her fore kagetsu and it large depends on what your goals are when you are playing the game. But for your average player I think Lapis is a fantastic investment if not the best one you can make for that point in the game. 

[samthedigital]

18 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

But yes I get why people would want to drop her fore kagetsu and it large depends on what your goals are when you are playing the game. But for your average player I think Lapis is a fantastic investment if not the best one you can make for that point in the game.

The point I'm trying to make is that for casual play there are a lot of different kinds of strategies that can be employed that will work just as well as the one you suggested that revolves around juggernauting with Lapis. I'm going to guess that most tier lists being made right now are a reflection of how people play the game and personal experience than anything else, so it's nothing to take too seriously.

Quote

(also for both skips at least from my own testing lapis is great way to do them if you want to)

Lapis might be able to remove a health bar or something. Alternatively she could hold Micaiah in one of the chapters to get some exp, but she won't snowball to the same degree that she would in your playthrough, so some of the units that join later are going to be far more valuable than they would be otherwise.

[Skyteppelin]

41 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

The point I'm trying to make is that for casual play there are a lot of different kinds of strategies that can be employed that will work just as well as the one you suggested that revolves around juggernauting with Lapis. I'm going to guess that most tier lists being made right now are a reflection of how people play the game and personal experience than anything else, so it's nothing to take too seriously.

Lapis might be able to remove a health bar or something. Alternatively she could hold Micaiah in one of the chapters to get some exp, but she won't snowball to the same degree that she would in your playthrough, so some of the units that join later are going to be far more valuable than they would be otherwise.

Right but that's what discussion is for I wanted to present my ideas to create a dialogue around it cause it was something that I thought was interesting and wanting to get into more. Also personally as someone who has a lot of fav units in FE that are considered bad and use them all the time. Just the idea of lapis being compared to them blew my mind so I wanted to look into it more. 

 

And certainly on some runs she wouldn't especially if you are just skipping maps but I also think that even if she doesn't snow ball out of hand she is still really good. She is still going to double everything you want her to and damage issues are way easy to fix then speed issues given the number of ways it can be augmented.  Cause really her low str is her one real problem given her arc type but that is mostly fixable in many a different ways even if you do go the route of trying to complete each map as fast as you can.  In an LTC setting I agree that kagetsu is better sure as LTC just be there nature drop units as they come and do give time for everyone to level. Really from what iv seen the "best" LTC unit is Veyle cause she is most often used to finish the final bosses off cause her stats are just the best because no one can get levels. But that's a unit that is normally put in the middle of the pack for people. But ultimately fast turn completion is just one way to play the game.

[DaveCozy]

4 hours ago, Anathaco said:

Fun fact, tonics and meals actually don't stack for whatever reason. So you'd basically need to either give her a speedwing (and I forget if they give you one at that point outside of the DLC. Probably not though) or stick Marth on her for her to double.

Yeah tonics and Somniel activites in general are treated as the same source, and don't stack. That also applies to Strength tonics, a str+ meal and working out with push ups. None of those stack either.

[samthedigital]

2 hours ago, Skyteppelin said:

In an LTC setting I agree that kagetsu is better sure as LTC just be there nature drop units as they come and do give time for everyone to level. Really from what iv seen the "best" LTC unit is Veyle cause she is most often used to finish the final bosses off cause her stats are just the best because no one can get levels.

The reason I brought up the cheese is because it demonstrates that there's a cost associated with training Lapis; it wasn't to compare her performance to Kagetsu in an LTC setting. It also shows that Lapis isn't necessarily helpful in the chapters where you decide to feed her kills.

3 hours ago, Skyteppelin said:

And certainly on some runs she wouldn't especially if you are just skipping maps but I also think that even if she doesn't snow ball out of hand she is still really good. She is still going to double everything you want her to and damage issues are way easy to fix then speed issues given the number of ways it can be augmented. 

She can kill enemies on player phase just fine, but a lot of units can do that; Lapis isn't special in that sense. If she wants do significant EP combat even in the best case scenario it requires a decent amount of investment, and she doesn't have a perfect 1-2 range option either depending on the scenario (enemies also get incredibly bulky later on in the game and stat thresholds become increasingly difficult to meet for a unit that doesn't naturally do a lot of damage like Lapis). There are other units that can do it without needing as many resources, so naturally they will be relevant in more playthroughs and with more strategies.

 

4 hours ago, Skyteppelin said:

Right but that's what discussion is for I wanted to present my ideas to create a dialogue around it cause it was something that I thought was interesting and wanting to get into more. Also personally as someone who has a lot of fav units in FE that are considered bad and use them all the time. Just the idea of lapis being compared to them blew my mind so I wanted to look into it more. 

People don't exactly consider Lapis to be bad in the sense that it's impossible to make her a good unit. It's that they consider her to be an investment unit that doesn't necessarily benefit the player during her self improvement phase. It's not exactly the same as older titles where bad units take a lot more setup to become reasonably strong.

[Usana]

What is Kagetsu's internal level? Cause even if he is a level 20 that promoted into Swordmaster Lapis stats are all less than his pretty much(she does have slightly more speed if I recall right) even if she gets 10 levels of swordmaster by the point he joins. The only thing of importance she has on him is 5% higher speed growth. And Chloe basically out stats her in every way too. She isn't unusable, but I can understand why folks end up benching her.

I am still fielding her occasionally but I haven't promoted her since Swordmaster's growths are basically identical to Sword Fighter as is its use. I am basically cycling everyone to avoid the DLC paralogues from making me level infinite. Stupid maps have way too many enemies/exp. But I don't have the Master Seals to get everyone up.

Edited February 26, 2023 by Usana

[samthedigital]

1 hour ago, Usana said:

What is Kagetsu's internal level?

15/1

[Speedy]

I dont necessarily agree with the statement in the first post. First it feels you've been using Chloé wrong, cause on my maddening run, so far she carries most of chapters, just give her sigurd ring and refine steel lance with sigurd engraving and you will mitigate her poor str growth, but I will be turning my Chloé into Martial Master anyway.

I do like Lapis as a character but she really drops off quickly on maddening and is outshined by others.

But here is a thing. On my current maddening run I just finished chapter 7, I am about to dive into divine paralogues and I will most likely try to do them all, since sooner you do them the easier they are. I might do chapter 8 first, so I get access to Second Seals. With the current roster, there are not many characters I plan to bring into the endgame and I am genuinely considering making Lapis part of the main roster, since she could get some nice lvl ups on those paralogues.

My question is, what reclassing would you recommend me to do on her? I looked at Halberdier, Wyvern Knight and even General. The last two kinda fixes her atroucious Str Growths and general with good Spd growth might be interesting. Im not sure about Halberdier, she has a good Spd growths and so the pincer passive doesnt sound really important to her. Any other recommendations you would give me?

[samthedigital]

37 minutes ago, Speedy said:

Any other recommendations you would give me?

Hero is great as a support class with Dual Assist and eventually Dual Assist+. Martial Master works if you want to make use of Lucina's Bonded Shield, but in both instances her combat is not as important. If you want to strictly make her a combat unit Wyvern is probably her best option. Warrior and Swordmaster might be alright, but that's not something I've tested and I can think of some obvious flaws with both of those choices.

[Skyteppelin]

9 hours ago, Speedy said:

I dont necessarily agree with the statement in the first post. First it feels you've been using Chloé wrong, cause on my maddening run, so far she carries most of chapters, just give her sigurd ring and refine steel lance with sigurd engraving and you will mitigate her poor str growth, but I will be turning my Chloé into Martial Master anyway.

I do like Lapis as a character but she really drops off quickly on maddening and is outshined by others.

But here is a thing. On my current maddening run I just finished chapter 7, I am about to dive into divine paralogues and I will most likely try to do them all, since sooner you do them the easier they are. I might do chapter 8 first, so I get access to Second Seals. With the current roster, there are not many characters I plan to bring into the endgame and I am genuinely considering making Lapis part of the main roster, since she could get some nice lvl ups on those paralogues.

My question is, what reclassing would you recommend me to do on her? I looked at Halberdier, Wyvern Knight and even General. The last two kinda fixes her atroucious Str Growths and general with good Spd growth might be interesting. Im not sure about Halberdier, she has a good Spd growths and so the pincer passive doesnt sound really important to her. Any other recommendations you would give me?

I think inspite of what people say swordmaster is great choice early on enemy stats aren't crazy yet so her lakc of damage isn't a big deal especially if you give her some decent forges. For mid game Id rec wyv cause flight plus with lyn she still is fast enough to double everything while having the big str boon. Also I think people and Ill mentione this later but don't think she needs butt tons of investment to be amazing she doesn't She needs no more then anyone else or in some cases needs less. So yea Id say sticking with swordmaster is fine if you want her to double but you will need to give her some forges to really make her shine. Or if you want to make more like CHloe is then Wyv early is fine.

Also Nah iv had lots of succus with Chloe iv beet the game twice with her on my main rosters so she's good I was just comparing there early game stuff.. 

[Speedy]

9 hours ago, Skyteppelin said:

I think inspite of what people say swordmaster is great choice early on enemy stats aren't crazy yet so her lakc of damage isn't a big deal especially if you give her some decent forges. For mid game Id rec wyv cause flight plus with lyn she still is fast enough to double everything while having the big str boon. Also I think people and Ill mentione this later but don't think she needs butt tons of investment to be amazing she doesn't She needs no more then anyone else or in some cases needs less. So yea Id say sticking with swordmaster is fine if you want her to double but you will need to give her some forges to really make her shine. Or if you want to make more like CHloe is then Wyv early is fine.

Also Nah iv had lots of succus with Chloe iv beet the game twice with her on my main rosters so she's good I was just comparing there early game stuff.. 

After Chapter 7 I turned Lapis into a Hero and gotta say she performs much better with Lances than swords. With sword she hits and doubles, but with proper lance she kills. I tried her as a swordmaster in my first playthrough on normal and I benched her cause she was underperforming (on normal!). But now (and for now) as a Hero she is doing well on maddening. I just turned her into wyvern knight so I am interested to see how is she gonna perform.

[Skyteppelin]

On 2/25/2023 at 5:12 AM, samthedigital said:

The reason I brought up the cheese is because it demonstrates that there's a cost associated with training Lapis; it wasn't to compare her performance to Kagetsu in an LTC setting. It also shows that Lapis isn't necessarily helpful in the chapters where you decide to feed her kills.

She can kill enemies on player phase just fine, but a lot of units can do that; Lapis isn't special in that sense. If she wants do significant EP combat even in the best case scenario it requires a decent amount of investment, and she doesn't have a perfect 1-2 range option either depending on the scenario (enemies also get incredibly bulky later on in the game and stat thresholds become increasingly difficult to meet for a unit that doesn't naturally do a lot of damage like Lapis). There are other units that can do it without needing as many resources, so naturally they will be relevant in more playthroughs and with more strategies.

 

People don't exactly consider Lapis to be bad in the sense that it's impossible to make her a good unit. It's that they consider her to be an investment unit that doesn't necessarily benefit the player during her self improvement phase. It's not exactly the same as older titles where bad units take a lot more setup to become reasonably strong.

That's fair sure.

Idk what units can do what she can do with the same amount of resources tbh. She doesn't require all that much to turn into a god for most of the game and only really needs to be invested in again near the end of the game. And if the trade of for that is a EP unit that klls everything id say that is a pretty worthwhile investment. 

This last point is the one I have trouble getting my head around. Is one master seal and marth after she joins really such a big deal? When the pay off is a unit who can EP anything in the game for pretty much the rest of the game? I can't say the same for any other unit during her join time. I admit she has trouble dealing with 1-2 range but not only do most units at this point do she hereself still doesn't get killed by them and kills back on EP. Plus again she holds a special place in being able to double the fastest units in the game.  I'm open to the idea that there might be better units to invest in at her point of the game but i certainly haven't seen it.  

[samthedigital]

3 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

This last point is the one I have trouble getting my head around. Is one master seal and marth after she joins really such a big deal?

No, it's not. The argument in favor of other units is generally that they're better without investment or that they join earlier and it is therefore either more efficient or more worthwhile to pump resources into them because it makes the earlier chapters easier while there is a nominal difference in performance in later chapters.

To go back to an earlier point though; she exists in a game where even the worst unit can be effective and trained without all that much effort. To use another FE game as an example to train Nino it requires being careful and spending a lot of time to get a unit that is about as good as both a pre-promote and another growth unit that we have had at least a dozen chapters to train already. There's no comparison between Nino and a "bad" unit in Engage.

54 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

Idk what units can do what she can do with the same amount of resources tbh

If you give Panette Ike and Vantage she can one shot just about everything with her 100% accuracy and a 100% crit rate on enemy phase. Most magic users can fight on enemy phase with help from Bonded Shield. That's a little more limiting in terms of how many enemies can be in range, but the upside is that a single tome is more broadly useful than any single given physical weapon. Kagetsu is the easiest example to bring up because his base stats are competitive with a Lapis who has gained 15 levels or so.  Otherwise there several units that are similar to her that will perform just as well given the same level of investment; it might take a little less effort to get them to 1k SP and the like though.

[Skyteppelin]

35 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

No, it's not. The argument in favor of other units is generally that they're better without investment or that they join earlier and it is therefore either more efficient or more worthwhile to pump resources into them because it makes the earlier chapters easier while there is a nominal difference in performance in later chapters.

To go back to an earlier point though; she exists in a game where even the worst unit can be effective and trained without all that much effort. To use another FE game as an example to train Nino it requires being careful and spending a lot of time to get a unit that is about as good as both a pre-promote and another growth unit that we have had at least a dozen chapters to train already. There's no comparison between Nino and a "bad" unit in Engage.

If you give Panette Ike and Vantage she can one shot just about everything with her 100% accuracy and a 100% crit rate on enemy phase. Most magic users can fight on enemy phase with help from Bonded Shield. That's a little more limiting in terms of how many enemies can be in range, but the upside is that a single tome is more broadly useful than any single given physical weapon. Kagetsu is the easiest example to bring up because his base stats are competitive with a Lapis who has gained 15 levels or so.  Otherwise there several units that are similar to her that will perform just as well given the same level of investment; it might take a little less effort to get them to 1k SP and the like though.

Right but part of my argument of this post was to highlight how Lapis out preforms those early investment units or is equal to the best one being Chloe. Which while it doesn't make her better then Chloe per say it still makes her vary comparable. And if you are being compared to the best unit before you Join I think that says a lot about how good you are as a unit. 

And yea I can see other units being better then her late game even I think she is amazing late game at least in my 3 maddening runs she was. Which wasn't to say other units weren't' but it was just so nice to have a unit that I could send of on there won with no support and have them not die and kill everything. Which again isn't exclusive to her in the late game. But the main thing is that Lapis can be this strong EP unit way before the late right after she joins. She is pretty much the first one to able to do this with basically no investment along with Dia who can really go on rampage.  And she scales amazingly the whole game thanks to things like early wyv access strong emblem synergy and fantastic use of stat booster resources like energy drop (which in my experience you don't actually need but its always nice). A unit that can become your best EP from the get go and stay among the best for whole game is pretty amazing.

 

[samthedigital]

2 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

Right but part of my argument of this post was to highlight how Lapis out preforms those early investment units or is equal to the best one being Chloe.

A lot of the early investment units (including Chloe depending on investment) start to fall off when compared to units that we get in the mid-game; the only thing that really makes them stand out is Canter access, and Lapis doesn't have that much time to get the required SP. If your argument is that Lapis can be a good unit that's a perfectly reasonable one. It just gets shaky if you try to compare her to other units given that she's not exceptional at her join time; she's an investment unit at the end of the day.

21 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

A unit that can become your best EP from the get go and stay among the best for whole game is pretty amazing.

If you gave other units with a similar level of favoritism you'd probably find that their performance isn't all that different.

 

43 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

And yea I can see other units being better then her late game even I think she is amazing late game at least in my 3 maddening runs she was.

If you've played through maddening three times and played the early game similarly each time there's not a whole lot to take away from it. The strategy you posted originally is only one of many that can lead to having a unit that juggernauts and has a strong enemy phase as long as you're creative with emblem use and such. I do have some reservations though because Lapis has to be fed a lot of kills for her to match units that aren't even that strong on enemy phase.

[Skyteppelin]

1 hour ago, samthedigital said:

A lot of the early investment units (including Chloe depending on investment) start to fall off when compared to units that we get in the mid-game; the only thing that really makes them stand out is Canter access, and Lapis doesn't have that much time to get the required SP. If your argument is that Lapis can be a good unit that's a perfectly reasonable one. It just gets shaky if you try to compare her to other units given that she's not exceptional at her join time; she's an investment unit at the end of the day.

If you gave other units with a similar level of favoritism you'd probably find that their performance isn't all that different.

 

If you've played through maddening three times and played the early game similarly each time there's not a whole lot to take away from it. The strategy you posted originally is only one of many that can lead to having a unit that juggernauts and has a strong enemy phase as long as you're creative with emblem use and such. I do have some reservations though because Lapis has to be fed a lot of kills for her to match units that aren't even that strong on enemy phase.

But I don't see her as investment unit that's where the disconnect is, I see her as the best unit you have at this point of the game who basically becomes the exact same thing as kagestu by the time he joins because she is just naturally good at what she does. Iv done 3 full runs of this game from start to finish and lots of testing. My second run I gave Lapis no investment for the whole game outside of join chapter and she was good the enter game.  

I have, iv given most units more in fact cause I'm not just going to make the argument while only using lapis, I used Loius, Yunaka, Diamant, Chloe, Alear, Alfrid, Celline, Citrine. Iv done tons of rests going back and forth seeing how they would preform given the same or more resources. Which is why I always say that a trained Chloe can do what Lapis can. 

Iv played the early game different all 3 times, other units can do great things, Yunaka can become basically unkillable and kill most enemy's at 1-2 range with good knife forges, but can't kill sword based units cause she isn't fast enough (early silver knife a really heavy investment and would better served on a wolf knight changed Chloe or Lapis Imo). Iv done a run where I made sure Chloe got every kill I could give her before Lapis joined and she was as good as Lapis on EP which I have said many times in this post but tends to have less Str then Lapis. Iv trained Loius who again doesn't die to anything but mages but also barly kills anything back cause he just doesn't ahve the SPD or raw power to do so and scales poorly because of it.  Celine is fantastic for one rounding armor knights but tends to struggle vs other mages and sword units. I have used many other units but always found Lapis just does the best cause she doesn't die and kills everything on EP sans things with 1-2 range. Which yes is a trade off but other units are also making such trades and most also struggle to kill 1-2 range enemy's on EP.  Along with struggling to kill sword units, which lapis doesn't. Even further if you really want her to kill 1-2 range you can class change her into wolf knight and give her a forge dagger then she will. 

Other units can become power houses but not on the level that lapis does at this point in the game because she basically has exclusive access to EP a enter weapon type along with being just as good if not better then other units at killing the other wep types.