Lapis in comparison to Chloe and Kagetsu. Why I think Lapis is better or at least just as good.

[samthedigital]

2 hours ago, Skyteppelin said:

But I don't see her as investment unit that's where the disconnect is, I see her as the best unit you have at this point of the game who basically becomes the exact same thing as kagestu by the time he joins because she is just naturally good at what she does.

If she's the best unit in the game at that point her stats should reflect that, right? Her bases are all worse than Diamant (outside of one point in speed in exchange for 4 in build) who joins one chapter later and has 300 more SP. Unless you're feeding her a lot of exp through her join chapter (where she isn't gaining any SP) she's going to have just about the exact same performance as him for several chapters until her speed is enough to let her double some enemies that he can't assuming that the build isn't a problem. By the point their stat differences might matter we're at a point where we get some strong units for free that will likely have better stats than any of the early game carries.

Otherwise the disconnect might just come from how you're clearing maps exactly. If you're killing every single enemy on every map and feeding Lapis a bunch of kills I can see you being able to double swordmasters throughout the game, but otherwise it's not likely, and that seems slow to me. Not that it's necessary to double swordmasters to one round them mind.

2 hours ago, Skyteppelin said:

Iv trained Loius who again doesn't die to anything but mages but also barly kills anything back cause he just doesn't ahve the SPD or raw power to do so and scales poorly because of it.

Louis isn't really a carry specifically because he's not that great at killing things later on in the game, but if you really want him to he can take advantage of a Lyn engrave and Ike to one round some swordmasters; it's just that other units can do it more effectively when these options are available. He's just one example though, and I'm only using it to show that Lapis is in no way unique in that regard.

Edited March 1, 2023 by samthedigital

[Skyteppelin]

10 hours ago, samthedigital said:

If she's the best unit in the game at that point her stats should reflect that, right? Her bases are all worse than Diamant (outside of one point in speed in exchange for 4 in build) who joins one chapter later and has 300 more SP. Unless you're feeding her a lot of exp through her join chapter (where she isn't gaining any SP) she's going to have just about the exact same performance as him for several chapters until her speed is enough to let her double some enemies that he can't assuming that the build isn't a problem. By the point their stat differences might matter we're at a point where we get some strong units for free that will likely have better stats than any of the early game carries.

Otherwise the disconnect might just come from how you're clearing maps exactly. If you're killing every single enemy on every map and feeding Lapis a bunch of kills I can see you being able to double swordmasters throughout the game, but otherwise it's not likely, and that seems slow to me. Not that it's necessary to double swordmasters to one round them mind.

Louis isn't really a carry specifically because he's not that great at killing things later on in the game, but if you really want him to he can take advantage of a Lyn engrave and Ike to one round some swordmasters; it's just that other units can do it more effectively when these options are available. He's just one example though, and I'm only using it to show that Lapis is in no way unique in that regard.

She can double sword units which Dia can't which is the most important difference as it makes one rounding them a cake walk. Dia can't reach a threshold to double them while Lapis can which is what makes her valuable. I also play the maps by trying to kill the boss as fast as I can normally with out warp skipping cause genearlly I don't find it very fun to warp skip outside of like two instance. But otherwise I don't got out of my way to feed lapis kills infact on my runs its the opposite on PP I make sure I give everyone else kills cause Lapis/Dia kill most everything that comes into contact with them during EP so I have no reason to feed ether of them kills. 

Again my arugment isn't that other units can't do it, its that lapis is the first to do it and stays that way for the whole game. With some of the least investment needed cause her base stats are really good for doing this exact thing.  She is kagetsu before you get Kagetsu. And assuming she is getting some kills because XP is a resource and her killing things makes your lifef on a chapter 100X easier then she will be on par with kagetsu. As before even if you think Kagetsu is better my point is that Lapis is just him but earlier and maybe slightly weaker depending on what you do with her. So she shoould be counted around him not way below him.  

[samthedigital]

1 hour ago, Skyteppelin said:

She can double sword units which Dia can't which is the most important difference as it makes one rounding them a cake walk.

They have a 1 point difference in speed at base, so unless she grows out of that extremely quickly then she isn't doubling enemies that he can't early on. If she is indeed doubling them throughout the game and is indeed at a reasonable level she needs a crit which probably necessitates Ike or Wrath for consistency, and literally any unit can one round swordmasters that way without the need for doubling.

1 hour ago, Skyteppelin said:

also play the maps by trying to kill the boss as fast as I can normally with out warp skipping cause genearlly I don't find it very fun to warp skip outside of like two instance.

If that's the case if you aren't getting speed blessed you are not doubling and one rounding swordmasters without speedtaker especially since you've stated that other units are getting kills. I'm not sure if I see any point in further debate though; your statements just don't make sense to me unelss you're really just feeding her kills or playing on a lower difficulty.

[Skyteppelin]

6 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

They have a 1 point difference in speed at base, so unless she grows out of that extremely quickly then she isn't doubling enemies that he can't early on. If she is indeed doubling them throughout the game and is indeed at a reasonable level she needs a crit which probably necessitates Ike or Wrath for consistency, and literally any unit can one round swordmasters that way without the need for doubling.

If that's the case if you aren't getting speed blessed you are not doubling and one rounding swordmasters without speedtaker especially since you've stated that other units are getting kills. I'm not sure if I see any point in further debate though; your statements just don't make sense to me unelss you're really just feeding her kills or playing on a lower difficulty.

Much bigger difference when they promo which is basically the start of it and with the higher spd growth its much more likely she stays ahead of that curve while Dia falls behind it. And again I know other units can do that later again Lapis can do it while also killing things just as easily early. 

Spd taker is def one way which is a very viable way cause its not hard for her to get it, keeping her in swordmaster with something like roy also works cause she gets at least 3 spd levels when engaging roy (I think its 4 but idk the numbers). Also idk man I;m okay with stopping if we both feel we aren't getting anywhere but I don't really like the implication that cause you can't understand it, it doesn't mean it didn't happen. Unless my maddening difficulty is a fake and all my saves are actually secretly on hard or that my fixed growths just isn't fixed growths then I don't know what to tell you. I don't deny that she gets lots of kills but cause again she just kills things extremally easily and it doesn't hurt my other units for her to just ripe everything apart with basically nothing giving to her or at least less then what other units would need to do the same at the point she joins. Cause on my side idk what other people area missing when I'm sitting her giving lapis the most basic things and watching her win the game from the moment she joins and why other people just seem to say that doesn't happen when iv seen it happen 3 times in a row. 

[samthedigital]

2 hours ago, Skyteppelin said:

Much bigger difference when they promo which is basically the start of it and with the higher spd growth its much more likely she stays ahead of that curve while Dia falls behind it.

They can both reclass to the same classes, and it still takes an appreciable amount of time for her growths to make her really start to outpace him.

2 hours ago, Skyteppelin said:

Spd taker is def one way which is a very viable way cause its not hard for her to get it, keeping her in swordmaster with something like roy also works cause she gets at least 3 spd levels when engaging roy (I think its 4 but idk the numbers). Also idk man I;m okay with stopping if we both feel we aren't getting anywhere but I don't really like the implication that cause you can't understand it, it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

As a level 20 Swordmaster (promoted at level 10) in chapter 20 she has 31 speed (33 with a tonic). To double she needs 39, and I feel that level 20 is a little generous if you're clearing maps quickly (which is something people factor in when making tier lists). She also needs at least 48? or so atk if she wants to kill without relying on a crit. With a level 10 Roy she reaches 37 speed and uh... 42ish? atk with a forged silver sword which will also weigh her down. With speedtaker she can start doubling them eventually, but not the ones at the start of the map. With Speed+4 she needs to use another weapon, and we would still need to get more attack with another skill even with the silver sword. Maybe you can offer a solution for me where she does indeed double them, kill them, and still reliably takes hits on enemy phase at this level, but even if that is the case then the benchmarks are still far higher than the benchmarks required for someone engaged with Ike using a Lyn engraved Killer weapon to one shot them with Vantage+.

edit: Something to note is that Kagetsu can reach those benchmarks earlier.

Edited March 1, 2023 by samthedigital

[Skyteppelin]

1 hour ago, samthedigital said:

They can both reclass to the same classes, and it still takes an appreciable amount of time for her growths to make her really start to outpace him.

As a level 20 Swordmaster (promoted at level 10) in chapter 20 she has 31 speed (33 with a tonic). To double she needs 39, and I feel that level 20 is a little generous if you're clearing maps quickly (which is something people factor in when making tier lists). She also needs at least 48? or so atk if she wants to kill without relying on a crit. With a level 10 Roy she reaches 37 speed and uh... 42ish? atk with a forged silver sword which will also weigh her down. With speedtaker she can start doubling them eventually, but not the ones at the start of the map. With Speed+4 she needs to use another weapon, and we would still need to get more attack with another skill even with the silver sword. Maybe you can offer a solution for me where she does indeed double them, kill them, and still reliably takes hits on enemy phase at this level, but even if that is the case then the benchmarks are still far higher than the benchmarks required for someone engaged with Ike using a Lyn engraved Killer weapon to one shot them with Vantage+.

edit: Something to note is that Kagetsu can reach those benchmarks earlier.

Sure he could but that doesn't mean lapis can't and its basically the same for them with one trending in the dodge tank direction the other to the normal tank so like even if its true that Dia is "better" the fact that they are very comparable is the point. 

Same with this statement I can't give you exact numbers but I say with swordmaster base she kept on par withh being able to double swordmaster and griffen knights with plus 3 spd for the whole game while still being a good avoid tank. And doing good damage with a roy or marth ring, crts are they way I went cause its easy to get 60+ crt on her with killing edge stuff while still having good damage out put. Its happened to me every time I tried cause the only reason i tried in the first place was cause I noticed she could do it. Also once again just cause other units can do that stuff doesn't mean lapis can't especially if they are using different emblems and engraves. Also again again just cause kagetsu can which I have said many times doesn't meaan that lapis can't or is even that far behind as there growths are pretty much the same with of course kagetsu hvaing better bases but assuming Lapis is doing her job and helping you clear maps easier and faster then they will be very comparable when they join with Lapis even being able to move ahead thanks to earlier wyv access. 

 

Again Is iv said I understand saying kagetsu is better even If I personally value the early strengths that Lapis brings better, but my main point is that they are very close and should be considered in the same ball park rather then for some reason kagetsu being considered way way better.  When lapis is around for longer scales just as well and even ahead at times to kagetsu. 
    

[samthedigital]

1 hour ago, Skyteppelin said:

the fact that they are very comparable is the point.

Yes, this is the exact point I was making; she doesn't offer any unique utility at any point in the game. I wasn't necessarily saying that she was better or worse than Diamant.

1 hour ago, Skyteppelin said:

Same with this statement I can't give you exact numbers but I say with swordmaster base she kept on par withh being able to double swordmaster and griffen knights with plus 3 spd for the whole game while still being a good avoid tank. And doing good damage with a roy or marth ring, crts are they way I went cause its easy to get 60+ crt on her with killing edge stuff while still having good damage out put. Its happened to me every time I tried cause the only reason i tried in the first place was cause I noticed she could do it.

If you can offer me your character's levels and the other skill that she was using that might help, but if you're going for crits you have to accept that Lapis is not the only one that can reach high crit numbers to kill enemies consistently. Some units can reach a higher crit rate to do it more consistently even since you won't be getting the 90%-100% that you would with Wrath. I'm also not sure on the numbers for her chance of survival or chance to kill, etc, but my numbers would not be accurate given that I don't know exactly how much experience you've put into Lapis on each of your playthroughs.

1 hour ago, Skyteppelin said:

Also again again just cause kagetsu can which I have said many times doesn't meaan that lapis can't or is even that far behind as there growths are pretty much the same with of course kagetsu hvaing better bases but assuming Lapis is doing her job and helping you clear maps easier and faster then they will be very comparable when they join with Lapis even being able to move ahead thanks to earlier wyv access. 

If you're really playing through the game quickly and Lapis is doing her job then she will probably be behind him at that point in the game, and Lapis is not uniquely able to clear up to that point easier and faster.

1 hour ago, Skyteppelin said:

Again Is iv said I understand saying kagetsu is better even If I personally value the early strengths that Lapis brings better, but my main point is that they are very close and should be considered in the same ball park rather then for some reason kagetsu being considered way way better.  When lapis is around for longer scales just as well and even ahead at times to kagetsu. 

They're not considered in the same ballpark specifically because you have to actually use Lapis quite a lot for her to be as good Kagetsu is, and her strength stat should basically never outpace his unless you use stat boosters on her.

Edited March 2, 2023 by samthedigital

[Skyteppelin]

1 hour ago, samthedigital said:

Yes, this is the exact point I was making; she doesn't offer any unique utility at any point in the game. I wasn't necessarily saying that she was better or worse than Diamant.

If you can offer me your character's levels and the other skill that she was using that might help, but if you're going for crits you have to accept that Lapis is not the only one that can reach high crit numbers to kill enemies consistently. Some units can reach a higher crit rate to do it more consistently even since you won't be getting the 90%-100% that you would with Wrath. I'm also not sure on the numbers for her chance of survival or chance to kill, etc, but my numbers would not be accurate given that I don't know exactly how much experience you've put into Lapis on each of your playthroughs.

If you're really playing through the game quickly and Lapis is doing her job then she will probably be behind him at that point in the game, and Lapis is not uniquely able to clear up to that point easier and faster.

They're not considered in the same ballpark specifically because you have to actually use Lapis quite a lot for her to be as good Kagetsu is, and her strength stat should basically never outpace his unless you use stat boosters on her.

Right

Id have to go digging and idea how to check internal levels but I do accept that Lapis isn't the only one who can do it. Many characters can the main point of my arugment is just that Lapis can do it first and keep doing it for the most part with out taking things from other characters. As she makes use of a lot of emblems that other units otherwise wouldn't use or the very least can use such a wide variety of emblems to reach this point that its def worth it to do. With that all being said its not like she is my only amazing unit that can do stuff of this level, my Dia, Alear, Merrin, and Chloe have all been able to do similar things on although tend to fill killing a type of enemy that the other's cant. 

I use both of them equally as they are just imo the two easiest enemy phasers to make at this point and tend to allocate there roles based on how the map is spilt often with Dia taking the tanky side and Lapis taking the Spd side. Then they both scale into my boss killers. 

But again she is not only amazing when you use her so using her is very worth it, this isn't like nino or other bad units she is not hindering your progress she is actively helping it in a strong way. But also can out pace kagetsu in str cause she gates access to wyv 3 chapters before he does which helps her not only kill more things but also spd up your clears of maps. Not to mention that she is a good investment for early game stat bosters but also doesn't need them to still be great.  In a bubble if they fought each other kagetsu would be better, but in the actual context of playing having 2 str less then kagetsu doesn't really change what she can kill compare to him especially considering how easy it can be to agument your damage.   

[samthedigital]

2 hours ago, Skyteppelin said:

But also can out pace kagetsu in str cause she gates access to wyv 3 chapters before he does which helps her not only kill more things but also spd up your clears of maps.

I'm going to remove the Kagetsu comparison for now and really focus on exactly what I mean when talking about clearing maps quickly. If we want to cheese chapters then we've established that we don't really have the time to train Lapis in any meaningful way. That's what makes Chloe better in that context; you can snowball her when chapters can't be cheesed as easily and she has the time to grow. I guess it's also worth mentioning that Lapis has a personal that is actually harmful at times and unimpactful at best, but it's probably not that relevant.

Suppose we don't cheese and take some more time to train Lapis and still clear maps relatively quickly. Lapis can go grab a Tomahawk in chapter 11 or divert some enemies from Alear so that they can get to the objective more safely. It would be difficult for her to get a lot of exp unless you slow down some, and you can't really give her any credit for that. In chapter 12 if she's sufficiently trained she can kill a handful of enemies to clear the map before reinforcements come, but that will also cut on her exp rather significantly, and you can extend that to the rest of the game. I could provide a few more examples, but the line blurs quickly when trying to determine what counts as cheese and what doesn't. I'm not sure exactly how much I like the term either because it's clearly intentional on some level.

Edited March 2, 2023 by samthedigital

[Skyteppelin]

1 hour ago, samthedigital said:

I'm going to remove the Kagetsu comparison for now and really focus on exactly what I mean when talking about clearing maps quickly. If we want to cheese chapters then we've established that we don't really have the time to train Lapis in any meaningful way. That's what makes Chloe better in that context; you can snowball her when chapters can't be cheesed as easily and she has the time to grow. I guess it's also worth mentioning that Lapis has a personal that is actually harmful at times and unimpactful at best, but it's probably not that relevant.

Suppose we don't cheese and take some more time to train Lapis and still clear maps relatively quickly. Lapis can go grab a Tomahawk in chapter 11 or divert some enemies from Alear so that they can get to the objective more safely. It would be difficult for her to get a lot of exp unless you slow down some, and you can't really give her any credit for that. In chapter 12 if she's sufficiently trained she can kill a handful of enemies to clear the map before reinforcements come, but that will also cut on her exp rather significantly, and you can extend that to the rest of the game. I could provide a few more examples, but the line blurs quickly when trying to determine what counts as cheese and what doesn't. I'm not sure exactly how much I like the term either because it's clearly intentional on some level.

I see what your saying with Chloe but my point is that Lapis is just a trained Chloe but prob has more strength so it works just as well with her. I did a run where I made sure i was playing decently fast and gave Chloe a Kill every single turn I could and with fixed growths she had 2 more spd and 2 less str then lapis on Join. At this point id value the Str more cause Lapis has enough spd to double everything you need her until lyn comes around if you want to go the wyv route. (also that I don't believe putting time into her is worth it compare to other units that you have before lapis especially because Lapis is just Chloe.) As for her personal not that impactful overall but I personally like that she has it has someone who uses her cause its really easy to use.

As for clearing maps quickly chapter 11 I don't divert anything I have lapis cut a giant hole down the middle and move her maxs move every turn cause nothing can stop her. With Alear following behind.  Which is the same for chapter 12 she can just promo to wyv fly to any part of the map you feel you need her and murder everything. Chapter 12 while you ether focus on getting the houses Lapis can hold off the entire group of wyv's by herself and not only get tons of EXP but make pushing down the map so much easier cause you have no worry's about wyvs coming from behind you. Or you can just have her fly way ahead and murder the bosses if you really want her to that's not hard for her. Now of course I do think other units could do this a trained Chloe could and Dia could also although he much struggle with avoiding a bit more. But then in the same vain Dia can be really good in other things so instead of cannibalizing Lapis for no reason Ill make two god tier units instead of just one. 

The only way I can maybe see Lapis not keeping up is if you rewarp skip chapters 9 and part of 10 which like sure I guess but that's just like LTC for me where I think Kagetsu would be better in that context. And even in that context its like Lapis is bad cause she is still a great asset to kill bosses and can def keep up and just be a smaller kagetsu if you wanted her to. But then if you don't rewarp skip then its super easy to make her go off to the races.   

[samthedigital]

24 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

As for clearing maps quickly chapter 11 I don't divert anything I have lapis cut a giant hole down the middle and move her maxs move every turn cause nothing can stop her. With Alear following behind.

If you're trying to clear that chapter quickly you should have Alear in front because she is closer to the objective and should have priority in max moving every turn.

24 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

Which is the same for chapter 12 she can just promo to wyv fly to any part of the map you feel you need her and murder everything.

If you're trying to clear the chapter quickly you need to have units spread across the map else you spawn reinforcements and clear the map more slowly. I could go on, but I hope you get the point...

24 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

And even in that context its like Lapis is bad cause she is still a great asset to kill bosses and can def keep up and just be a smaller kagetsu if you wanted her to. But then if you don't rewarp skip then its super easy to make her go off to the races.   

In an LTC context she's much closer to her bases, and the more resources you dump into her the less that go into more important units.

Edited March 2, 2023 by samthedigital

[Skyteppelin]

14 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

If you're trying to clear that chapter quickly you should have Alear in front because she is closer to the objective and should have priority in max moving every turn.

If you're trying to clear the chapter quickly you need to have units spread across the map else you spawn reinforcements and clear the map more slowly. I could go on, but I hope you get the point...

In an LTC context she's much closer to her bases, and the more resources you dump into her the less that go into more important units.

In what way does moving Lapis forward her full move mean Alear is not? Is the assumption that I'm holding alear back so Lapis gets the kills? Cause that's not what I'm doing, I'm moving her ahead so Alear has way easier time moving there full move forward. Obv I'm not going to move Alear into a postion where they freaking die but baring that they are moving there full move.

Again idk why you assume because lapis is going of on her own means units aren't spread out, if anything it makes the spread out easier cause she covers a larger foot print on her own.  Letting other units go into areas that need that help more. 

Sure Like I said LTC is different, I was just saying that she isn't that bad in a LTC context. Although I don't really want to focus on LTC cause that's only one way to play the game that is just valid as say not using warp cause you think its cheap. But yes in LTC lapis is not as good as she would be otherwise.

Edited March 2, 2023 by Skyteppelin

[samthedigital]

Just now, Skyteppelin said:

In what way does moving Lapis forward her full move mean Alear is not? Is the assumption that I'm holding alear back so Lapis gets the kills? Cause that's not what I'm doing, I'm moving her ahead so Alear has way easier time moving there full move forward. Obv I'm not going to move Alear into a postion where they freaking die but baring that they are moving there full move.

 

35 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

With Alear following behind.

Alear can use her full movement every turn and not die provided that someone baits the archer. Their stats should be relatively similar to Lapis, and they should be a flier. There is no reason for you to have Lapis in front in this map if you're trying to play quickly.

7 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

Again idk why you assume because lapis is going of on her own means units aren't spread out, if anything it makes the spread out easier cause she covers a larger foot print on her own.  Letting other units go into areas that need that help more. 

In a quick clear a unit is going to one area and not going back and forth through the map.

[Skyteppelin]

11 hours ago, samthedigital said:

 

Alear can use her full movement every turn and not die provided that someone baits the archer. Their stats should be relatively similar to Lapis, and they should be a flier. There is no reason for you to have Lapis in front in this map if you're trying to play quickly.

In a quick clear a unit is going to one area and not going back and forth through the map.

Idk why two units can't be up at the front to help clear the way and of course while clearing fast is always a good meteric, clearing easily is another and Lapis can certainly  help with both. 

When i say large foot print I mean they cover more space which helps in any type of clear like this, nothing about what I said imply she is going back and forth jut that she covers a larger area on her own.

I need to ask for clarity sake, say you where making  tier list, where would you place lapis  say from S to D tier 

[niveklt]

I've read through pretty much the entire thread, and I think OP has a huge bias for Lapis, and I like her a lot myself.

OP even mentioned how Chloe would have to be fed 'every kill you can to let her reach level 10 by the time we reach chapter 7' which is complete BS. As someone else pointed out, Chloe has 4 maps, because we aren't including her join chapter per OP, to get exp for level 10 before chapter 7. On every playthrough I've done, Chloe gets to level 10 just as I am finish Anna's paralogue for the first master seal. Sure you could argue it is favoritism to give it to Chloe, but for me personally, she is the only one who is generally fast enough to double and kill enemies and reaches 10 first. This has happened with me not giving her an emblem ring before too. 

Now we get to chapter 7, for me personally, Chloe is a newly level 1 Wyvern Knight with whatever emblem of choice. For later playthroughs this is now Sigurd because I tend to start getting ready to bench Louis. At this point in the game, Chloe completely outclasses Lapis in every stat. Lapis here is good herself as well and can handle her own quite well, but that doesn't mean that Chloe isn't just straight better. Yea, there's 3 archers sitting on this map, however, not a single one of them can 1 shot Chloe. As I said, with the way I play now, knowing what I like and how I play, Chloe has Sigurd and can usually sweep up an archer and then hide back around because of the walls, so she doesn't die from another archer + other enemies. 

Pretty much from here on out, you get your second seal. Yes you can give it to Lapis, which is fine, however, it is either Swordmaster or Hero at this point for chapter 8 because there are no second seals available till after chapter 8. In either case, Lapis is still outclassed by Chloe for chapter 8. 

Like I said, I like Lapis and have made her work. I do no think she is better than Chloe or Kagetsu. 

[Skyteppelin]

18 minutes ago, niveklt said:

I've read through pretty much the entire thread, and I think OP has a huge bias for Lapis, and I like her a lot myself.

OP even mentioned how Chloe would have to be fed 'every kill you can to let her reach level 10 by the time we reach chapter 7' which is complete BS. As someone else pointed out, Chloe has 4 maps, because we aren't including her join chapter per OP, to get exp for level 10 before chapter 7. On every playthrough I've done, Chloe gets to level 10 just as I am finish Anna's paralogue for the first master seal. Sure you could argue it is favoritism to give it to Chloe, but for me personally, she is the only one who is generally fast enough to double and kill enemies and reaches 10 first. This has happened with me not giving her an emblem ring before too. 

Now we get to chapter 7, for me personally, Chloe is a newly level 1 Wyvern Knight with whatever emblem of choice. For later playthroughs this is now Sigurd because I tend to start getting ready to bench Louis. At this point in the game, Chloe completely outclasses Lapis in every stat. Lapis here is good herself as well and can handle her own quite well, but that doesn't mean that Chloe isn't just straight better. Yea, there's 3 archers sitting on this map, however, not a single one of them can 1 shot Chloe. As I said, with the way I play now, knowing what I like and how I play, Chloe has Sigurd and can usually sweep up an archer and then hide back around because of the walls, so she doesn't die from another archer + other enemies. 

Pretty much from here on out, you get your second seal. Yes you can give it to Lapis, which is fine, however, it is either Swordmaster or Hero at this point for chapter 8 because there are no second seals available till after chapter 8. In either case, Lapis is still outclassed by Chloe for chapter 8. 

Like I said, I like Lapis and have made her work. I do no think she is better than Chloe or Kagetsu. 

While I do have Bias towards Lapis this doesn't mean I ignore other factors and iv tested plenty of other units. I understand what your saying with chloe which is why Iv always highlighted that Chloe can do this. But the main crux of my arugment is that Chloe isn't the best unit for when she is around and going by the same logic that people use when comparing Lapis to Kagetsu. Why Should I be feeding Chloe when i'm going to be getting someone as good as her not long after Chloe joins? When that EXP could be used to train units like Celine, Alear, Yunaka, Who all offer things that Chloe doesn't and are generally more helpful when they are around. 

Now again even if you don't agree with all of that again again again if you really just don't want to agree that Lapis is not better then Chloe or Kagetsu that's fine but she is literally so similar to them that the fact that have such a huge difference in tier between each other is absurd. This is like people saying Franz is not worth it cause Seth is around. Or why should you use milady when a fed Shanna does the same thing? Or why even use Catria/Ceade, when you already have Palla who is super broken.  Or why use Alan when you have Lance or vice versa. Why use you Lowen when Ill be getting a trained Sain and Kent back, who even needs Jill when I already have Marcia. Why even bother with any other royal Laguz I got Tibarn 4 chapters ago.  It blows my mind that people can be given a unit who is by all means just Chloe two and somehow come to the conclusion that she is way worse.  

[samthedigital]

8 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

I need to ask for clarity sake, say you where making  tier list, where would you place lapis  say from S to D tier 

It depends on the context. In an LTC context she's a lower tier unit. In an "efficiency"* context she might bump up a tier, but I'm not sure; she still has the experience problems that I've mentioned and won't really have the time to be a carry. In a context where you're killing every single enemy on the map and complete most side objectives and the like I would bring her up to a B tier or something like that. She can contribute in the way you've described throughout the topic in this context, but there are some other combat and utility units that are better (and I'm not talking about Chloe here), and units tend to stand out less since they can all get fed exp far more easily.

Efficiency is kind of a vague term, and I'm not sure I like it much, but it is generally closer to LTC while focusing more on making the clears reliable. If there's a disconnect between your view of where Lapis should be in a tier list and where people place her it's because they are not evaluating units the way you are.

20 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

This is like people saying Franz is not worth it cause Seth is around.

In an LTC context he's nearly redundant from what I remember. In an efficiency context he's one of three cavaliers that can get to promotion and contribute a bit, but his role is not comparable to Seth's whatsoever. That's why some people would say that he's "not worth it".

[Skyteppelin]

24 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

It depends on the context. In an LTC context she's a lower tier unit. In an "efficiency"* context she might bump up a tier, but I'm not sure; she still has the experience problems that I've mentioned and won't really have the time to be a carry. In a context where you're killing every single enemy on the map and complete most side objectives and the like I would bring her up to a B tier or something like that. She can contribute in the way you've described throughout the topic in this context, but there are some other combat and utility units that are better (and I'm not talking about Chloe here), and units tend to stand out less since they can all get fed exp far more easily.

Efficiency is kind of a vague term, and I'm not sure I like it much, but it is generally closer to LTC while focusing more on making the clears reliable. If there's a disconnect between your view of where Lapis should be in a tier list and where people place her it's because they are not evaluating units the way you are.

In an LTC context he's nearly redundant from what I remember. In an efficiency context he's one of three cavaliers that can get to promotion and contribute a bit, but his role is not comparable to Seth's whatsoever. That's why some people would say that he's "not worth it".

That sort of the problem I have with fire emblem tier list in general is that people define them in so many different ways  and that context matters. Which is fine if everyone is on the same  page but can be annoying otherwise. Also while I don't agree B tier I think that is a fair enough assignment. 

And sure but that doesn't make franz a bad unit not even close. 

[samthedigital]

1 minute ago, Skyteppelin said:

And sure but that doesn't make franz a bad unit not even close.

I don't want to get too off topic, but Franz can hurt Seth and some of the other units in the long term. Imagine you give Franz a kill on a boss instead of Seth. Seth then has less chances of gaining stats that will help him survive and carry later on in the game. I am not that well versed in Sacred Stones, but if people say that he's not worth it that's what they would have determined.

12 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

Also while I don't agree B tier I think that is a fair enough assignment. 

To be brief I think that S tier should be reserved for the units who have combat that eclipses every other unit or who have incredible utility. If you don't factor in join time or whatever Panette and Seadall come to mind since Panette is pretty much the most consistent EP unit in the game regardless of investment as long as she has Ike, and Seadall is a dancer. A tier would be reserved for units that can snowball really early or who have good if not exceptional utility. Lapis would fall just short of that because it takes can be more difficult for her to inherit things like Canter and the like.

[Skyteppelin]

1 hour ago, samthedigital said:

I don't want to get too off topic, but Franz can hurt Seth and some of the other units in the long term. Imagine you give Franz a kill on a boss instead of Seth. Seth then has less chances of gaining stats that will help him survive and carry later on in the game. I am not that well versed in Sacred Stones, but if people say that he's not worth it that's what they would have determined.

To be brief I think that S tier should be reserved for the units who have combat that eclipses every other unit or who have incredible utility. If you don't factor in join time or whatever Panette and Seadall come to mind since Panette is pretty much the most consistent EP unit in the game regardless of investment as long as she has Ike, and Seadall is a dancer. A tier would be reserved for units that can snowball really early or who have good if not exceptional utility. Lapis would fall just short of that because it takes can be more difficult for her to inherit things like Canter and the like.

Nah people don't call franz bad he is often called the second or 3rd best unit in the game cause he just mini seth. Which is what I meant with the example that just cause he was a worse version of seth doesn't mean he is bad by any means. Which most people agree on which is why I'm confused by Lapis being considered far wrose then Chloe and kagetsu by some people.  

I think that's a fair way to look at S tier, however to me what makes a S tier is someone that you can use that will basically serve you well the whole game and will make the average players experience much easier. Letting them breeze past large amounts of the game, which is why I personally value Lapis so high cause she takes minimal investment to turn into a power house for the whole game. No more then other top tier units in other games like Milday or Jill, and while here heights might not be the among the top of top. The fact that she is amazing from the moment you get her and for the rest of the game, only maybe falling off in the end if you basically give her no extra stuff that's amazing to me.  Which does hinge on giving her something she needs but that goes for every unit in this game cause Pannette as you said needs Ike. And in the same Vain Lapis needs Lyn, Marth, or Roy to be amazing for the rest of the game. 

I also just have to say this more then any fire emblem game is a game about using your resources properly. Cause basically no unit can make do with nothing so units who make the best use of the resources we have available are what count. 
 

[samthedigital]

43 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

Nah people don't call franz bad he is often called the second or 3rd best unit in the game cause he just mini seth.

It depends on who you ask; these days he's seen as far less useful than that depending on what circles you frequent. If you want to hear some discussion on it Mekkah made a tier list review video with someone who is far more knowledgeable than I am on Sacred Stones. I'll leave it at that though to not go too wildly off topic.

Edited March 2, 2023 by samthedigital

[Skyteppelin]

14 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

It depends on who you ask; these days he's seen as far less useful than that depending on what circles you frequent. If you want to hear some discussion on it Mekkah made a tier list review video with someone who is far more knowledgeable than I am on Sacred Stones. I'll leave it at that though to not go too wildly off topic.

Idk if id personally make him lower less I think that's more a testment to how overpowered seth is rather then franz being bad but yea not to off topic. still franz was just one example of my point.

[FashionEmblem]

I'm not sure about the part where Chloé requires particular favoritism to hit level 10 by Lapis' join? If I do both Jean and Anna's paralogue before Chapter 7, then Chloé hits level 10 and promotes with the Master Seal from Anna's. If I hold off on Anna's paralogue (e.g., use it as an SP opportunity for Alcyrst/Citrinne/Lapis) then she hits level 10 during Chapter 7 and promotes with the Master Seal dropped there. There was some favoritism since I knew I wanted to use her long-term and others less so (by contrast, Louis hit level 10 during Chapter 9, since I was tossing him onto the bench) but also not exclusive favoritism (Alear, Boucheron, Yunaka, and Céline were about the same level as Chloé).

Still I have been convinced a bit of Lapis' upside. Her stats really do make her a bit of Chloé II (with less magic), but I do think still think she's a bit worse. Wyvern!Chloé for me kept up respectable damage in the late game by relying on the Levin Sword to target lower enemy res. Plus, Griffin Knight is a better class than Swordmaster. Even if both want to end up something like Wyvern eventually, Chloé has extra flexibility delaying the reclass if you so desire (e.g., Second Seals and gold are finite and maybe you are prioritizing other things first). Chloé can also easily gain an SP advantage on Lapis' join. Finally, I added a bit of challenge to my run by not using stat boosters, but when accounting for those only one of Lapis or Chloé likely gets the investment and Chloé just has more going for her at that early point in time (even if Lapis can catch-up soon).

I am more convinced about Lapis relative to the other nearby sword backup Diamant. Diamant is notably slower than Lapis and can't double the way she can promoted into Swordmaster. Diamant has a marginally easier time getting to ranged chain attacks if you value that, and while Lapis can get there too pretty easily as a Hero, then you don't hit those doubling thresholds. Diamant also has a notable SP advantage of 300, which you can only narrow so much if you keep Anna's paralogue until after recruiting Lapis. Diamant has a pretty straightforward time getting Canter before Chapter 10 if you don't rush Chapters 8 and 9. Around their join I'd give the advantage to Diamant probably (I'm inclined to focus the first two Master Seals to get more staff users, so Lapis' speed advantage is mostly moot), but in the longer-term I can see Lapis' speed being more helpful than Diamant's pseudo-tankiness. I think both ultimately suffer that in optimal play most early game units get shelved for stronger mid-game units though.

[BloodRonin]

On 2/22/2023 at 12:51 AM, Skyteppelin said:

Lapis, Chloe, and Kagetsu are basically the same unit in a lot of ways. Similar stat lines and allocations that vary with there join times, similar growths across the board with some minor variations here and there.

Lapis starting stats when you get her are below, and she starts at level 10.  I have Kagetsu below. I did not post Chloe as I believe she is very similar to Lapis, but overall better if you go Gryphon knight. (and she starts as a flyer, which is a great niche to have early on) But I did want to point out, Chloe is level 6 when you recruit her, and has the same HP as Lapis and Lapis is level 10 when you get her. The issue with Lapis is as a front liner, she has low str and HP. (this can be fixed with stat boosters which nullifies the argument of one being better than the other) but without the stat booster, Lapis is just worst, at least in direct comparison to Kagetsu. That being said, Kagetsu also has inflated stats when you get him since his eternal level vs the stats he should have at a little off. (I believe Merrin is the same way if the datamine is correct).  Personal skill wise, you could argue for any to be better than the other, though Kagetsu's is easiest to use, as all it takes is for you to attack. If you compare them for 1v1 at max level with max stats, then yea they are pretty much the same unit overall. But that isn't the case for majority of the game if at all for most players, and especially on maddening. I think the numbers speak for themselves. Even if you promote Lapis right away to a sword master, and level her to meet Kagetsu's internal level, she still will have worse stats and will require more investment. 
 

Stat	Base	Cap	Stat Growth
HP	26	0	55
Str	11	-2	25
Mag	2	-2	20
Dex	12	2	35
Spd	14	3	55
Def	7	0	35
Res	6	0	30
Lck	7	0	25
Bld	5	0	5

 Here is Kagetsu. Who is a lvl 1 swordmaster at recruitment with an internal level of 15. 

Stat	Base	Cap	Stat Growth
HP	35	0	60
Str	17	-1	30
Mag	5	-1	15
Dex	22	2	50
Spd	22	2	50
Def	14	0	40
Res	10	-2	25
Lck	17	1	40
Bld	9	0	10

[Skyteppelin]

On 3/9/2023 at 11:11 PM, FashionEmblem said:

I'm not sure about the part where Chloé requires particular favoritism to hit level 10 by Lapis' join? If I do both Jean and Anna's paralogue before Chapter 7, then Chloé hits level 10 and promotes with the Master Seal from Anna's. If I hold off on Anna's paralogue (e.g., use it as an SP opportunity for Alcyrst/Citrinne/Lapis) then she hits level 10 during Chapter 7 and promotes with the Master Seal dropped there. There was some favoritism since I knew I wanted to use her long-term and others less so (by contrast, Louis hit level 10 during Chapter 9, since I was tossing him onto the bench) but also not exclusive favoritism (Alear, Boucheron, Yunaka, and Céline were about the same level as Chloé).

Still I have been convinced a bit of Lapis' upside. Her stats really do make her a bit of Chloé II (with less magic), but I do think still think she's a bit worse. Wyvern!Chloé for me kept up respectable damage in the late game by relying on the Levin Sword to target lower enemy res. Plus, Griffin Knight is a better class than Swordmaster. Even if both want to end up something like Wyvern eventually, Chloé has extra flexibility delaying the reclass if you so desire (e.g., Second Seals and gold are finite and maybe you are prioritizing other things first). Chloé can also easily gain an SP advantage on Lapis' join. Finally, I added a bit of challenge to my run by not using stat boosters, but when accounting for those only one of Lapis or Chloé likely gets the investment and Chloé just has more going for her at that early point in time (even if Lapis can catch-up soon).

I am more convinced about Lapis relative to the other nearby sword backup Diamant. Diamant is notably slower than Lapis and can't double the way she can promoted into Swordmaster. Diamant has a marginally easier time getting to ranged chain attacks if you value that, and while Lapis can get there too pretty easily as a Hero, then you don't hit those doubling thresholds. Diamant also has a notable SP advantage of 300, which you can only narrow so much if you keep Anna's paralogue until after recruiting Lapis. Diamant has a pretty straightforward time getting Canter before Chapter 10 if you don't rush Chapters 8 and 9. Around their join I'd give the advantage to Diamant probably (I'm inclined to focus the first two Master Seals to get more staff users, so Lapis' speed advantage is mostly moot), but in the longer-term I can see Lapis' speed being more helpful than Diamant's pseudo-tankiness. I think both ultimately suffer that in optimal play most early game units get shelved for stronger mid-game units though.

You can def get Chloe to level 10 by the time Lapis joins fairly easily although like it does mean you have to make sure you give her kills. Which of course is, fine Chloe is a really good unit and worth the investment. More how I feel and the many point of my argument is that Lapis is just this trained Chloe but right away, and there are other units that do want XP during the time Chloe is around but that are also more useful then Chloe at the time even if Chloe will out scale them later units like Celine, Alear, Vander, Louise. Chloe biggest thing obv is being a flier but outside of letting you pull ivy on turn 1 (Which can be done with a promoted cav as well) being a flier doesn't really help all that much early on. There are little things like being able to fight pegs a turn early on chapter 7 and flying over like one gap on chapter 6 which are nice things but imo when you factor in the archer weakness it sort of cancels out. Later on they where will be much more use for fliers but you have second seals now so it isn't a role that onyl Chloe can do.  Lapis can do the same thing right away with no investment aside from the second seal. Of course Dia also great but takes a different space then Lapis does cause they don't want the same things so using both doesn't hurt the other by any means. 
 

On 3/15/2023 at 6:19 AM, BloodRonin said:

Lapis starting stats when you get her are below, and she starts at level 10.  I have Kagetsu below. I did not post Chloe as I believe she is very similar to Lapis, but overall better if you go Gryphon knight. (and she starts as a flyer, which is a great niche to have early on) But I did want to point out, Chloe is level 6 when you recruit her, and has the same HP as Lapis and Lapis is level 10 when you get her. The issue with Lapis is as a front liner, she has low str and HP. (this can be fixed with stat boosters which nullifies the argument of one being better than the other) but without the stat booster, Lapis is just worst, at least in direct comparison to Kagetsu. That being said, Kagetsu also has inflated stats when you get him since his eternal level vs the stats he should have at a little off. (I believe Merrin is the same way if the datamine is correct).  Personal skill wise, you could argue for any to be better than the other, though Kagetsu's is easiest to use, as all it takes is for you to attack. If you compare them for 1v1 at max level with max stats, then yea they are pretty much the same unit overall. But that isn't the case for majority of the game if at all for most players, and especially on maddening. I think the numbers speak for themselves. Even if you promote Lapis right away to a sword master, and level her to meet Kagetsu's internal level, she still will have worse stats and will require more investment. 
 

Stat	Base	Cap	Stat Growth
HP	26	0	55
Str	11	-2	25
Mag	2	-2	20
Dex	12	2	35
Spd	14	3	55
Def	7	0	35
Res	6	0	30
Lck	7	0	25
Bld	5	0	5

 Here is Kagetsu. Who is a lvl 1 swordmaster at recruitment with an internal level of 15. 

Stat	Base	Cap	Stat Growth
HP	35	0	60
Str	17	-1	30
Mag	5	-1	15
Dex	22	2	50
Spd	22	2	50
Def	14	0	40
Res	10	-2	25
Lck	17	1	40
Bld	9	0	10

Having Low HP doesn't matter cause she is avoid tank anyway and also Wyv gives more then enough HP to not be easily killed, as someone who has used Lapis every run i can very very very confidently saying her dying is not a problem.  As for the kagetsu stuff I don't disagree that Kagetsu's stats are little better, but more in that the difference is so minor if you actually use lapis and she gets benefits over Kagetsu like access to part 1 emblems and promo to wyv 3 chapters earlier. Which not only makes her more useful for those 3 chapters but also lets her get so many more levels and skill by just simply being a god like EP unit. So she is one of your best units before Kagetsu joins, better when he joins cause she has access to wyv and he doesn't, and then equal better or a little worse depending on how much stuff she got before hand after chapter 13. To me in all worlds this just means Lapis is more useful of a unit outside of a LTC context.