Lapis in comparison to Chloe and Kagetsu. Why I think Lapis is better or at least just as good.

[samthedigital]

23 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

More how I feel and the many point of my argument is that Lapis is just this trained Chloe but right away, and there are other units that do want XP during the time Chloe is around

That's not really an argument against Chloe though; we can apply the same logic to Lapis because other units want experience too. Alear wants to promote eventually, but there isn't any real downside to snowballing Chloe early since the other early game units aren't good long term prospects; not compared to Chloe anyway. LTCs (barely iirc) are able to promote Chloe before Lapis comes around, but outside of that it's going to be far easier to feed her kills to make her a strong unit for the rest of the game, and she's still pretty good while getting there.

38 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

Which not only makes her more useful for those 3 chapters but also lets her get so many more levels and skill by just simply being a god like EP unit.

38 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

To me in all worlds this just means Lapis is more useful of a unit outside of a LTC context.   

I don't LTC, but I also play in a way that limits the available experience in chapters 11 and 12. I also like to cheese paralogues. This means that my units will be weaker than yours, and my Lapis won't be as good as advertised; certainly not as good as the midgame units with inflated stats relative to the ones we get early on anyway. That's an example of why tiering units without specifically defined parameters doesn't really work that well, and even then it's not always useful. I've seen a few 'tier lists' where people try and rank units in terms of how useful they are given certain amounts of investment, but that also means that they aren't comparing units to one another.

[Skyteppelin]

3 hours ago, samthedigital said:

That's not really an argument against Chloe though; we can apply the same logic to Lapis because other units want experience too. Alear wants to promote eventually, but there isn't any real downside to snowballing Chloe early since the other early game units aren't good long term prospects; not compared to Chloe anyway. LTCs (barely iirc) are able to promote Chloe before Lapis comes around, but outside of that it's going to be far easier to feed her kills to make her a strong unit for the rest of the game, and she's still pretty good while getting there.

I don't LTC, but I also play in a way that limits the available experience in chapters 11 and 12. I also like to cheese paralogues. This means that my units will be weaker than yours, and my Lapis won't be as good as advertised; certainly not as good as the midgame units with inflated stats relative to the ones we get early on anyway. That's an example of why tiering units without specifically defined parameters doesn't really work that well, and even then it's not always useful. I've seen a few 'tier lists' where people try and rank units in terms of how useful they are given certain amounts of investment, but that also means that they aren't comparing units to one another.

It doesn't hurt Chloe that much no but I'm just using the same logic people use against Lapis vs Kagestu. I think all of them are worth using and personally value what Lapis brings the most. As for long term prospects outside of Alear iv honestly been favoring Celine more and more as time goes on she is so strong early on and scales surprisingly well into the late game with the right builds. I don't think she is better then Chloe but I do think investing her is worthwhile prospect if that is what you choose to do (also units like Anna are worth using if you can get them there.)

LTC are still being routed a lot and iv seen Chloe falling out of favor a little bit as units like Celine just do more for you in LTCs that being said I already think Chloe is more useful in LTCs (for now anyway, I have my own theory's with Lapis I want to try.) 

 

I don't LTC ether but I also don't just turtle back on my last run with no DLC I finished chapter 11 in 4 turns and 12 in 5 or 6 can't remember of the top of my head. Basically the only way you are getting a faster chapter 11 is with warp stuff which like sure if you want to go ahead. Not that I don't think Lapis is useful for that cause she is, she is a great boss killer so she pretty easily kill the bosses. Same with Paralogues I also chess most of them (although depends on what point in the game I decide to do them) I don't warp skip literally of them (Do with ones like leif though) but I do them quick. In general I want to make it clear that I'm not just hanging back killing everything on a map.Everything that dies is just things that get in the way of making it to the boss which changes a lot depending on the chapter. Sometimes its every enemy like on chapter 9, sometimes its half like in chapter 17, or sometimes its barley any like chapter 19.  

I'm not feeding lapis kill, she is just getting kills cause she a monster combat unit. Chapter 13 while kagetsu is making his way through all the twist and turns with everyone else. Lapis is just flying over the water killing all the wyvs and such on the way to the boss who she reaches way before everyone else (outside of warp stuff). Chapter 11 she ether flies over the main gap and kills everything in front of her or if you have her as a foot class goes around and kills all the enemy's on goldmarys side by herself. I can't stress enough that this isn't slow play where Lapis is protected and getting feed any kills she can get on PP. This is a unit that from promo onwards is a one man army that just happens to get tons of kills while moving forward. Enemy's can't kill her and she kills them back, its not a Lilian who needs to be protected until she can fight way later in the game. She's a rutger who is just one of if not your best combat unit for most of the game. 

[samthedigital]

4 hours ago, Skyteppelin said:

Basically the only way you are getting a faster chapter 11 is with warp stuff which like sure if you want to go ahead. Not that I don't think Lapis is useful for that cause she is, she is a great boss killer so she pretty easily kill the bosses.

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I don't LTC ether but I also don't just turtle back on my last run with no DLC I finished chapter 11 in 4 turns and 12 in 5 or 6 can't remember of the top of my head.

You don't need to use Warp to clear chapter 11 in one less turn. There might be faster ways of finishing the chapter now that the DLC and well exist, but it doesn't really matter. The point is that Alear needs to reach the objective and starts closer to it than anyone else given their starting position. The only reason for anyone to kill most of the enemies on that map is for self improvement, and you can't give Lapis any credit for that.

Chapter 12 can be cleared more quickly provided you can take care of the enemies before reinforcements arrive. You can give Lapis some kills there, but it's a team effort because enemies are spread throughout the map. LTC does it in 2 last I checked, but clearing it in 4 is still pretty reasonable. I don't remember for sure since I haven't played in a few weeks now.

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I'm not feeding lapis kill, she is just getting kills cause she a monster combat unit. Chapter 13 while kagetsu is making his way through all the twist and turns with everyone else. Lapis is just flying over the water killing all the wyvs and such on the way to the boss who she reaches way before everyone else (outside of warp stuff).

Isn't the closest path to the bosses through the middle? They also have 4 health bars, and one of them is carrying a ranged weapon, so I doubt she's killing them before everyone else reaches the bosses.

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I'm not feeding lapis kill, she is just getting kills cause she a monster combat unit. Chapter 13 while kagetsu is making his way through all the twist and turns with everyone else. Lapis is just flying over the water killing all the wyvs and such on the way to the boss who she reaches way before everyone else (outside of warp stuff). Chapter 11 she ether flies over the main gap and kills everything in front of her or if you have her as a foot class goes around and kills all the enemy's on goldmarys side by herself

You're missing the point. The point is that we don't play the game the same way and I don't see the need to use Lapis to finish maps quickly. I can warp if I want or use some filler units to get the job done before getting units like Panette, Pandreo, Kagetsu, Merrin, etc. Why then is Lapis more useful than the other two outside of an LTC context? You've demonstrated to me that she's more useful for you, but not that she's more useful in general.

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also units like Anna are worth using if you can get them there.

What do you mean by worth exactly? When I say that Chloe is the only good long term prospect I mean that the other early game units are a mix of not that good when trained, replaceable, and taking too long to train. Anna fits nicely in that group, and while she can become a good unit it's not exactly worth doing; she can become as good as any other magical unit but with the downside of taking longer to get there.

Something to mention is that now that the well exists (and the extra DLC if you want to include that) it's easier to get SP, and I do think that this can shift the discussion somewhat; Lapis can inherit canter more easily early on, and she doesn't need the help that the early game scrubs do.

Edited March 17, 2023 by samthedigital

[Skyteppelin]

59 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

You don't need to use Warp to clear chapter 11 in one less turn. There might be faster ways of finishing the chapter now that the DLC and well exist, but it doesn't really matter. The point is that Alear needs to reach the objective and starts closer to it than anyone else given their starting position. The only reason for anyone to kill most of the enemies on that map is for self improvement, and you can't give Lapis any credit for that.

Chapter 12 can be cleared more quickly provided you can take care of the enemies before reinforcements arrive. You can give Lapis some kills there, but it's a team effort because enemies are spread throughout the map. LTC does it in 2 last I checked, but clearing it in 4 is still pretty reasonable. I don't remember for sure since I haven't played in a few weeks now.

Isn't the closest path to the bosses through the middle? They also have 4 health bars, and one of them is carrying a ranged weapon, so I doubt she's killing them before everyone else reaches the bosses.

You're missing the point. The point is that we don't play the game the same way and I don't see the need to use Lapis to finish maps quickly. I can warp if I want or use some filler units to get the job done before getting units like Panette, Pandreo, Kagetsu, Merrin, etc. Why then is Lapis more useful than the other two outside of an LTC context? You've demonstrated to me that she's more useful for you, but not that she's more useful in general.

What do you mean by worth exactly? When I say that Chloe is the only good long term prospect I mean that the other early game units are a mix of not that good when trained, replaceable, and taking too long to train. Anna fits nicely in that group, and while she can become a good unit it's not exactly worth doing; she can become as good as any other magical unit but with the downside of taking longer to get there.

Something to mention is that now that the well exists (and the extra DLC if you want to include that) it's easier to get SP, and I do think that this can shift the discussion somewhat; Lapis can inherit canter more easily early on, and she doesn't need the help that the early game scrubs do.

I got chapter 10 and 11 mixed up that's my bad, Chapter 11 ether way 4 turns is still a very fast clear and also you can even just send someone back to get XP killing the monster and such which Lapis can do. Again cause I got the map mixed up I dont clear every enemy, I kill anything until alear can escape I don't keep them around a turn longer. I send Lapis back to farm free XP while the rest push forward cause she doesn't need any help. 



Again I got the chapters mixed up but still the same clear count and sure again you can do them faster but the point is that I'm not doing it slow. and again for what feels like the 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 time Lapis can be a wyv at this point which Kagetsu can't which helps clear chapter 12 way better.

 

No she isn't killing all of there lives but at least last time I tried she killed one boss out right before anyone else caught up and I know I could do faster. Which again idk to me sounds pretty freaking good to me. But maybe there is some super epic mega skip that gets all of your units there on the same turn with out dying with out mic or sigurd. 

Idk why don't you try a Lapis run then? Iv done runs with literally all of those units and Lapis was the leader of all my fastest runs so like idk what to tell you. Like I can use Kagestu which I have but she isn't keeping up with Lapis until he can go wyv at which point on all my runs he is just the same unit, and sense I prefer Lapis I can keep using her. I don't want to be rude but to me you are the missing the point. The point is that Lapis has a benfit over kagetsu when they are both around to start then operates the same as kagetsu after the fact. This includes warp skipping and everything its not like she isn't useful for these, she is fantastic for this  as someone who has again done this already. At this point I feel like I have to walk you through a step by step run and show you each turn in detail before you even give me some benefit of the doubt that I'm not just speaking out my ass. iv beat this game 3 almost 4 times on maddening now, iv used every unit and have done DLC none DLC Warp no Warp. THe only thing I haven't done is LTC. Iv done runs where I gave Lapis nothing aside from the most basic things any unit would need to be good and she was good the whole time from the moment she joined until the end. 

When I say worth I mean someone from the early game that can serve you well the whole game after they join. Anna is not the best example although I don't think she is that hard to get going but does require some babying. But Someone like Celine is super useful when she joins and she retains that Niche as the game goes on. Sure you can replace her with other mages but she can offer some things over them or you can always use both. Point is she will serve you well through out the whole game. 

Also yea easier access to SP only helps Lapis.

[samthedigital]

2 hours ago, Skyteppelin said:

Idk why don't you try a Lapis run then? Iv done runs with literally all of those units and Lapis was the leader of all my fastest runs so like idk what to tell you.

I never said whether I've used Lapis or not; only that I didn't need her to finish chapters quickly, and if the turn counts you provided are any indication it means that you could still go faster with or without using Lapis.

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Again I got the chapters mixed up but still the same clear count and sure again you can do them faster but the point is that I'm not doing it slow. and again for what feels like the 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 time Lapis can be a wyv at this point which Kagetsu can't which helps clear chapter 12 way better.

The "way better" that you describe is killing maybe 3 or 4 enemies given that there are 11 enemies at the start of the map, and it's not possible to cover all that distance in a few turns. Ideally we have multiple wyverns to clear the map, so while Lapis can be useful it's not as if she's doing a lot even at her best anyway.

edit: With DLC Kagetsu can also swap to wyvern for this map right?

2 hours ago, Skyteppelin said:

I don't want to be rude but to me you are the missing the point.

2 hours ago, Skyteppelin said:

The point is that Lapis has a benfit over kagetsu when they are both around to start then operates the same as kagetsu after the fact.

This is only true if she has gained enough levels to be as effective as Kagetsu. To reiterate my point: Lapis might be more useful for you, but the way you play is not objectively better than anything else.

 

2 hours ago, Skyteppelin said:

At this point I feel like I have to walk you through a step by step run and show you each turn in detail before you even give me some benefit of the doubt that I'm not just speaking out my ass. iv beat this game 3 almost 4 times on maddening now, iv used every unit and have done DLC none DLC Warp no Warp.

Doing 4 runs and showing me exactly how you play doesn't really prove anything. The only thing that really proves anything to me is demonstrating that using Lapis in the way you described is both faster and more consistent than the alternative. The problem is that there isn't really any great way to prove it, and if there are any differences between strategies it won't be much given that the DLC helps equalize things.

Edited March 17, 2023 by samthedigital

[Speedy]

Here are my thoughts on Lapis After chapter 19 maddening, with all the DLC and half of the paralogues done.

Turn her into a sword/lance wyvern knight. (Or lance/axe I dont care, main point is that she gets access to lances.)

This class fixes her shitty str growth rates, her speed is great so she it mitigates the bad class spd growths and start using lances instead of swords. She will actually do really good. In my run she basicaly replaced Chloé, because I turned Chloé into Martial Master so I needed to get back a flier. In regards of skills maybe give her early game an extra build. She is totaly viable for the entire run unlike other units.

But... I have to say... After I reached chapter 11 (when you get Kagetsu) after completing 4 divine paralogues as well. Kagetsu base stats were still better than hers and she was higher level than him. I believe I also had for some moments Tiki bracelet on her so her growths got a bit better. On the other hand I'm not sure that at this point if its ideal to compare her with him, since she is effectively now lance user while Kagetsu is a sword user. But I also turned my Kagetsu into a wyvern knight, but since I really dont have enough space for him in my roster, he is an extra unit for some chapters and he starts to fall behind.

One massive advantage Lapis has over Kagetsu is, that she can and most likely will have canter, while with kagetsu you would have to wait for 6 chapters before you get it and wyvern knight without a Canter isn't very effective for my style of play.

Also up to chapter 11 you dont really have that many good lance users, unless you did some massive fiddling with classes. Chloé is winner , but as I mentioned I switched her into a completely different role which I genuinely enjoy much more. Louis is great early game, but really starts to fall of because of his really bad speed. And the only other Lance user you have is Alfred who, how to say it nicely... is not great. (But hey if you invest in him heavily I believe you could make him work, but I would prefer training Lapis.) Oh and I almost forgot about Amber, ok he has a really good str growths and yet his dex and spd... Hard to say, he might be actually decent on this. I still have to test him properly. Anyway early game I would sort the lance users from best to worst (and I do consider Lapis lance user, since you can promote her into a hero and she is doing well on that class as well, but would still recommend switch as soon as possible to wyvern knight) Chloé>Lapis>Amber/Louis>Alfred.

You might agree or disagree, but this is my experience so far.

[Skyteppelin]

13 hours ago, samthedigital said:

I never said whether I've used Lapis or not; only that I didn't need her to finish chapters quickly, and if the turn counts you provided are any indication it means that you could still go faster with or without using Lapis.

The "way better" that you describe is killing maybe 3 or 4 enemies given that there are 11 enemies at the start of the map, and it's not possible to cover all that distance in a few turns. Ideally we have multiple wyverns to clear the map, so while Lapis can be useful it's not as if she's doing a lot even at her best anyway.

edit: With DLC Kagetsu can also swap to wyvern for this map right?

This is only true if she has gained enough levels to be as effective as Kagetsu. To reiterate my point: Lapis might be more useful for you, but the way you play is not objectively better than anything else.

 

Doing 4 runs and showing me exactly how you play doesn't really prove anything. The only thing that really proves anything to me is demonstrating that using Lapis in the way you described is both faster and more consistent than the alternative. The problem is that there isn't really any great way to prove it, and if there are any differences between strategies it won't be much given that the DLC helps equalize things.

I don't really see how that has any bearing on if that makes her good or bad it just yea like every other unit she can be used better or worse. I know Id could do much faster with her I just try other things.

She is the best wyv you have aside from trained Chloe but we have been through this already. By your logic though I'm just not going to count for anyone helping on that map. No one helps cause everyone helps. Also yes you can get DLC into this but with DLC into account I think Lapis is actually way better then kagetsu cause she can get thing like star sphere basically right as you can unlock it which just rocket her past anything kagetsu can do. Although then you also have to get into the weeds of when you should do the DLC maps and all that which is holy topic that is still being looked at by many people. 

Sure but at that point why even have this discussion, if that's your stance that's fine but the whole point of my post was to present my idea of why using Lapis is worth it and to go into my view point on her most common comparison points. To show why I think she is really useful and will make a lot of people runs way easier and why from a overall perspective I believe her to be one of the best units in the game.  Also yes DLC does change things now but people can still do none DLC runs and it is also still worth to discuss at what point should you make use of DLC and for what reason. As I said early I'm of the stance that DLC just makes Lapis bonkers dumb even if you give all the stat boosters and such to Chloe, Lapis can still be just as good as her.   

[Skyteppelin]

30 minutes ago, Speedy said:

Here are my thoughts on Lapis After chapter 19 maddening, with all the DLC and half of the paralogues done.

Turn her into a sword/lance wyvern knight. (Or lance/axe I dont care, main point is that she gets access to lances.)

This class fixes her shitty str growth rates, her speed is great so she it mitigates the bad class spd growths and start using lances instead of swords. She will actually do really good. In my run she basicaly replaced Chloé, because I turned Chloé into Martial Master so I needed to get back a flier. In regards of skills maybe give her early game an extra build. She is totaly viable for the entire run unlike other units.

But... I have to say... After I reached chapter 11 (when you get Kagetsu) after completing 4 divine paralogues as well. Kagetsu base stats were still better than hers and she was higher level than him. I believe I also had for some moments Tiki bracelet on her so her growths got a bit better. On the other hand I'm not sure that at this point if its ideal to compare her with him, since she is effectively now lance user while Kagetsu is a sword user. But I also turned my Kagetsu into a wyvern knight, but since I really dont have enough space for him in my roster, he is an extra unit for some chapters and he starts to fall behind.

One massive advantage Lapis has over Kagetsu is, that she can and most likely will have canter, while with kagetsu you would have to wait for 6 chapters before you get it and wyvern knight without a Canter isn't very effective for my style of play.

Also up to chapter 11 you dont really have that many good lance users, unless you did some massive fiddling with classes. Chloé is winner , but as I mentioned I switched her into a completely different role which I genuinely enjoy much more. Louis is great early game, but really starts to fall of because of his really bad speed. And the only other Lance user you have is Alfred who, how to say it nicely... is not great. (But hey if you invest in him heavily I believe you could make him work, but I would prefer training Lapis.) Oh and I almost forgot about Amber, ok he has a really good str growths and yet his dex and spd... Hard to say, he might be actually decent on this. I still have to test him properly. Anyway early game I would sort the lance users from best to worst (and I do consider Lapis lance user, since you can promote her into a hero and she is doing well on that class as well, but would still recommend switch as soon as possible to wyvern knight) Chloé>Lapis>Amber/Louis>Alfred.

You might agree or disagree, but this is my experience so far.

Nah I think that is vaild way to look at her for sure, I keep her mainly as a sword user myself cause of her build and also being able to use Roy or Marth really well means Lyn can go to someone else but yea Lance Lapis is a really nice direction to take her. As for comparing her to kagetsu her stats will be lower when he joins assuming she isn't a wyv yet which is fine, more my point was that they are so close that it doesn't really matter. And that Lapis has access to all the skills from the past emblems as well as earlier wyv/DLC depending on how you go about it so she has a lot of flexibility. I need to try Lance Lapis myself so thanks for the suggestions epsically when Star Sphere gives her a build growth. 

Really that's a big thing with Lapis to me is she really works well with a lot and comes at a time where you can pretty much give her access to anything you want to epsically now. With stats that are comparable to the units everyone thinks are top tier.  

[samthedigital]

1 hour ago, Skyteppelin said:

I don't really see how that has any bearing on if that makes her good or bad it just yea like every other unit she can be used better or worse.

If you make the claim that Lapis is better than Chloe or Kagetsu you have to establish that she helps clear chapters "better" than they do. If either option performs exactly the same except for the fact that we get one of them earlier the choice is generally pretty clear.

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By your logic though I'm just not going to count for anyone helping on that map. No one helps cause everyone helps.

My logic isn't that we shouldn't give her credit but that we shouldn't give her that much credit. You could make the claim that she's better for a few chapters, but for her to be the better unit she'd have to be better for a longer period of time.

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She is the best wyv you have aside from trained Chloe but we have been through this already.

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As for comparing her to kagetsu her stats will be lower when he joins assuming she isn't a wyv yet which is fine, more my point was that they are so close that it doesn't really matter.

She (along with Chloe) can be the best wyverns for a few chapters, but Merrin and Kagetsu outpace them as wyverns once they can change classes and should be better for the rest of the game unless you get to level 13 promoted with them over the course of a few maps. This is why I wanted to establish exactly how quickly you were clearing maps. The one LTC I could use as an example gets Chloe to level 4 promoted by the time we get Kagetsu, and that's still a ways off from him. You can't really make the argument that she's so close that it doesn't matter either; Kagetsu will reach benchmarks with less time investment required which would make him the better unit using that as a criteria. Kagetsu and Merrin also have the benefit of not having to worry about positioning if they want to take advantage of crits.

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Sure but at that point why even have this discussion, if that's your stance that's fine but the whole point of my post was to present my idea of why using Lapis is worth it and to go into my view point on her most common comparison points.

Your post was framed as a reason why Lapis is better than other units; if it was framed as a way to make Lapis good it would be different. If you want to continue to state that Lapis is the better unit because she's better using your specific playstyle then discussion is pointless; Lapis reaches Kagetsu's level and always does exactly what he can do at all points in the game. If instead we include a variety of ways of playing the game the discussion becomes different and Lapis might just not be that good.

Edited March 17, 2023 by samthedigital

[Colonel M]

Priestess and I were talking about Lapis earlier today and I figured I'd weigh in more with LTC in mind because I did hypothesize with Sky that Lapis could work.

But I think recent discoveries on how I plan to map my run does put a heavier dent onto Lapis, unfortunately.

I think there are some merits to running Lapis in the group, but I'd really focus on Wyvern and Griffin Knight. Wyvern's biggest advantage is that you still get access to your Silver Blade later on for Engage Attacks (Georgios if you go Griffin Knight after receiving it) and can functionally work there. I think Chloe's earlier jointime does get her rolling a bit quicker, though, as an example and that can have a snowball effect, as I've seen when XS has been doing his maps.

I put her in C originally more because I was really unsure of her. More stat comparisons and a few other things helped me soften my stance on her and I think she's still a solid B investment. Questionable if Merrin outclasses her (Merrin has a good personal skill) and she still has some competition, but you could argue that Chloe passes the baton to Lapis and Lapis does the work instead with Edelgard.

So yeah I just wanted to post this information too because I planned on looking at a video with her (and a few other LTC-related videos). Just figured I'd drop this here.

[Skyteppelin]

24 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

If you make the claim that Lapis is better than Chloe or Kagetsu you have to establish that she helps clear chapters "better" than they do. If either option performs exactly the same except for the fact that we get one of them earlier the choice is generally pretty clear.

My logic isn't that we shouldn't give her credit but that we shouldn't give her that much credit. You could make the claim that she's better for a few chapters, but for her to be the better unit she'd have to be better for a longer period of time.

She (along with Chloe) can be the best wyverns for a few chapters, but Merrin and Kagetsu outpace them as wyverns once they can change classes and should be better for the rest of the game unless you get to level 13 promoted with them over the course of a few maps. This is why I wanted to establish exactly how quickly you were clearing maps. The one LTC I could use as an example gets Chloe to level 4 promoted by the time we get Kagetsu, and that's still a ways off from him. You can't really make the argument that she's so close that it doesn't matter either; Kagetsu will reach benchmarks with less time investment required which would make him the better unit using that as a criteria. Kagetsu and Merrin also have the benefit of not having to worry about positioning if they want to take advantage of crits.

Your post was framed as a reason why Lapis is better than other units; if it was framed as a way to make Lapis good it would be different. If you want to continue to state that Lapis is the better unit because she's better using your specific playstyle then discussion is pointless; Lapis reaches Kagetsu's level and always does exactly what he can do at all points in the game. If instead we include a variety of ways of playing the game the discussion becomes different and Lapis might just not be that good.

I do think she helps just as good as they do and you get her earlier which is what iv been saying this whole time. 

Again she is better then equal idk how many times I need to repeat this. Even if she was worse its only by a slight bit which doesn't warrant any big tier difference.

Sure in a LTC iv already said I think Lapis is worse then kagetsu (from what iv seen anyway). From my runs where I go fast outside of warp skips, Lapis is one of the most helpful untits and has ended up with multiple round of testing having on average 2 less strength then kagetsu with no use of any external ways to raise STR (of which she does have access to but I didn't use) This is such a small difference that not only is easy to fix but also barley means anything in the difference in there long term viability. As both will preform very roughly the same if you do use them for the whole game even if you use both of them. This is my main point even if I accept (which I don't) that Kagetsu is some how leagues ahead of Lapis (which he isn't) it still wouldn't make Lapis some how way lower if you did use her along side or instead of him. That is just not imo how tier list should work, the assumption should always be that IF you used them from the moment you got them till the end of the game how would they fair for you? Then most FE fans tend to add availability as metric which I think is fine. Lapis joins sooner, is a fantastic unit from the moment she joins so will naturally very much help you out, she has access to all pre chapter 11 emblems, and can access wyv sooner then kagetsu with out DLC. Then with DLC she gets access to all the DLC emblems way before kagetsu does and because those chapters scale with level doing them early is a pretty realistic option. Not to mention access to far more SP books more stat boosters better forge options and etc etc. Some of these things Kagetsu will get access to like you can trade the forges from say someone like Lapis to him, but he sitll can't get access to think like the emblem skills from part 1.  Lapis is never a detriment to you she is only ever a boon and big one at that, she is EP phase machine with little investment that is extremely flexible in what emblems she can use and what classes she can be so she will never eat something from someone else.  In a game where the average units per chapter is 10 I think this is all pretty freaking good. 

I use better of course in the context of fire emblem but I always made sure to preface that I wasn't saying CHloe or Kagetsu where bad and you shouldn't use them. They aren't and id never say they where. Just that Lapis is just as worthy to use if not more so. Id that id recommend people do so cause its fun and makes the game much easier if that's what you want.  

[Skyteppelin]

22 minutes ago, Colonel M said:

Priestess and I were talking about Lapis earlier today and I figured I'd weigh in more with LTC in mind because I did hypothesize with Sky that Lapis could work.

But I think recent discoveries on how I plan to map my run does put a heavier dent onto Lapis, unfortunately.

I think there are some merits to running Lapis in the group, but I'd really focus on Wyvern and Griffin Knight. Wyvern's biggest advantage is that you still get access to your Silver Blade later on for Engage Attacks (Georgios if you go Griffin Knight after receiving it) and can functionally work there. I think Chloe's earlier jointime does get her rolling a bit quicker, though, as an example and that can have a snowball effect, as I've seen when XS has been doing his maps.

I put her in C originally more because I was really unsure of her. More stat comparisons and a few other things helped me soften my stance on her and I think she's still a solid B investment. Questionable if Merrin outclasses her (Merrin has a good personal skill) and she still has some competition, but you could argue that Chloe passes the baton to Lapis and Lapis does the work instead with Edelgard.

So yeah I just wanted to post this information too because I planned on looking at a video with her (and a few other LTC-related videos). Just figured I'd drop this here.

Thank you CM, I hope to add to the LTC scene at some point when I have more time, plus it also just sound fun to try and make my girl work.

[samthedigital]

7 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

Again she is better then equal idk how many times I need to repeat this. Even if she was worse its only by a slight bit which doesn't warrant any big tier difference.

You haven't established that she's better than equal (so you can repeat it as much as you want and it won't really change anything) by my estimation, and I replied to a comment where you made the claim that she was better.

12 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

That is just not imo how tier list should work, the assumption should always be that IF you used them from the moment you got them till the end of the game how would they fair for you?

That's only one part of the picture. There's also the matter of exactly how much they're being used and how much experience you can dump into them in a given time frame. As we've seen this can vary quite a bit; your numbers don't necessarily reflect the ones that I would expect to see. You also have to determine exactly how good that the unit is compared to others when they join and during future chapters.

[Skyteppelin]

4 hours ago, samthedigital said:

You haven't established that she's better than equal (so you can repeat it as much as you want and it won't really change anything) by my estimation, and I replied to a comment where you made the claim that she was better.

That's only one part of the picture. There's also the matter of exactly how much they're being used and how much experience you can dump into them in a given time frame. As we've seen this can vary quite a bit; your numbers don't necessarily reflect the ones that I would expect to see. You also have to determine exactly how good that the unit is compared to others when they join and during future chapters.

Then I guess where at in pass iv said my piece and I guess if you don't believe it that's that. If her stats being basically the same (assuming you do use her which again only helps you), having better emblem access, and being able to access the better class first. Is not enough for you then nothing more I can really do, I assume your main argument is that if you don't use her which like sure i guess? As iv said that's not really how I think a tier list should work but you don't agree which is fine but then we just have fundamentally different view point. Which is fine but doesn't really help us to have a further discussion. 

I understand all that and Iv said as much. I argued that Lapis is not only worth using over pretty much every other unit at the time aside from maybe a trained Chloe so she is a great candidate for EXP and makes all the chapters she is in much easier.  Like sure it doesn't reflect what you would expect to see but to me the point of any discussion like this is we are assuming we are using the units to the best of there ability's. Which one of Lapis unique traits compare to 95% of your other units at this point is a very easy of us basically free EP monster that can double everything that other units can't aside from a trained Chloe.  Which Id assume you would say that you should just then use Chloe, which okay use her but just use both. Both are very flexible and can accel in more then one role, or what if my Chloe couldn't reach level 10 by Lapis join or what I felt I wanted Lapis high STR stat more. Or what if I invested in Chloe being my strong sigurd user so Lapis gets free pickings on Marth or Vice versa. Or what if like CM mentioned you just want to pass on everything to Lapis cause Chloe isn't turning out great and Lapis is Chloe 2. There are so many reasons to keep using her as one of your strongest units regardless of what Chloe does. Lapis only real competition is Chloe as they are the only two that can actually break sword enemy unit SPD thresholds at this point (which of course means they break all the rest)

I can do break downs comparing her to every other unit if you would like but I think Chloe is the only real meaningful comparison at this point cause they are very similar and Chloe by most peoples metrics is one of the best units before this point. 
 

[samthedigital]

43 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

If her stats being basically the same (assuming you do use her which again only helps you), having better emblem access, and being able to access the better class first. Is not enough for you then nothing more I can really do, I assume your main argument is that if you don't use her which like sure i guess?

The main point of contention is that I don't agree with the first assumption. I'm not saying that she can't get there, but I don't think that she can match Kagetsu at his join time in an efficient way especially without DLC.

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Or what if like CM mentioned you just want to pass on everything to Lapis cause Chloe isn't turning out great and Lapis is Chloe 2.

In an LTC setting using Lapis over Chloe is an active decision; you'd have to hold onto resources that Chloe would otherwise be getting for immediate benefit.

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Which Id assume you would say that you should just then use Chloe, which okay use her but just use both.

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There are so many reasons to keep using her as one of your strongest units regardless of what Chloe does.

In an LTC the reason we wouldn't use both is because of resource management. If we're not doing an LTC I'd agree with you, but it also limits the potential exp that they're getting making the comparison to the mid-game units even less favorable. Just as an aside though there are probably some kinds of planned playthroughs that could favor using Lapis over Chloe, but that's something that would have to be tested, and it might still be close.

Edited March 18, 2023 by samthedigital

[Skyteppelin]

11 hours ago, samthedigital said:

The main point of contention is that I don't agree with the first assumption. I'm not saying that she can't get there, but I don't think that she can match Kagetsu at his join time in an efficient way especially without DLC.

In an LTC setting using Lapis over Chloe is an active decision; you'd have to hold onto resources that Chloe would otherwise be getting for immediate benefit.

In an LTC the reason we wouldn't use both is because of resource management. If we're not doing an LTC I'd agree with you, but it also limits the potential exp that they're getting making the comparison to the mid-game units even less favorable. Just as an aside though there are probably some kinds of planned playthroughs that could favor using Lapis over Chloe, but that's something that would have to be tested, and it might still be close.

Define efficient then? Cause with playing fast never not doing full move and killing the boss when ever able she normally ends up with about 1 less spd and 2 less str then him with out any stat boosters. Now if you pull ivy turn 1 in chapter 8, rewarp to ivy in chapter 9, rewarp to horetensia then the king all with out anyone dying in chapter 10, then reclass alear to a staff using class and rewarp to skip a few turns in chapter 11. Then don't promo her into wyv to help kill a bunch of stuff on chapter 12, and finally don't use her to just skip half the map as a wyv in chapter 13.  Also if you want to count DLC don't do any DP of which she is really suited to doing.  Also you give her no SP at all to give her access to canter or other good skills. Then yea sure she isn't as good as kagetsu, if that's what you mean by efficient then yes by your metric she won't reach that point.  If you ask me most of what I just mentioned is not what Efficient is to me. Efficient to me is, timely manner (this doesn't mean the lowest turn count possible just not so many turns that its clear your are playing really slow), easy of use, effective use of resources, doing things that also will work out for you in the long run, etc... 

Sure, Iv already said that I don't think Lapis is as good as Kagetsu or Chloe in LTC settings (for now I'm starting to change on teh Chloe one but I don't LTC). Though from what iv seen of LTC runs Chloe is not really the star so idk if those resources are best on her ether.

Well we aren't doing LTC cause this was never an LTC discussion. I'm not a LTCer Iv wanted to give it a try but I haven't yet. Also this then begs the question in how exactly do you rate a unit in LTC. Do you rate them by if they are part of what will end up being the best LTC strategy, or do you rate them based on what they would do for you if you made them a primary focus of your LTC. Cause the way tier list work for most games the ladder would be the way most people would rank them. For example lets say the S tier most useful unit in a LTC has this turn speared of. C1 1 turn, C2 2 turn C3 2 Turn C4 5 turn C5 3 turn, then the another unit the saves the second most time speared would be. C1 2 turn C2 2 turn C3 3 turn C4 6 turn C5 3 turn.  Is this unit D tier cause they are just not as fast as the number 1 so you would never use them over the S tier? Or are they A tier cause if you didn't use the S tier they would be the next best option? Most games would say they where A tier cause most tier list are made under the assumption that you are using whatever character. Now of course fire emblem has join times to take into account which muddle things but I think this example is fine for now.  

[DaveCozy]

1 hour ago, Skyteppelin said:

rewarp to horetensia then the king all with out anyone dying in chapter 10, then reclass alear to a staff using class and rewarp to skip a few turns in chapter 11.

You can actually just skip past Hortensia in ch10 by Micaiah rewarping a group of units past the door, you can use Dragon!Alear with Micaiah which helps for the extra range. I have 3 turned that map before, and I'm sure there's faster strats by now specially with DLC. Still that chapter is very much so an "all hands on deck" because even the units that aren't re-warping past the door have stuff to do; like picking up the Draco Shield from the chest and the Energy Drop Goldmary has (not sure how much they matter in DLC LTCs but I found the energy drop at least to be pretty helpful in just an efficiency run). I can see a Wyvern Lapis helping in that context too.

Edited March 18, 2023 by DaveCozy

[samthedigital]

25 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

Define efficient then?

You're still allowed to use staves in "efficient" play, but finishing consistently is more valuable than the turn count. It's a loosely defined term, but to me they should still be considered because it's part of the game. You don't necessarily have to warp skip or max move every single map, but I wouldn't give a unit credit for taking that extra time to get experience. I don't know where the topic is, but if you go look at Colonel M's tier list there's a FAQ that has a link to something Vykan posted years ago; that defines it better than I could.

51 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

Now if you pull ivy turn 1 in chapter 8, rewarp to ivy in chapter 9...

How much of this are we doing is another question. We don't have to rewarp on every map or anything, but again, the more we do the less exp each unit is going to get. I certainly have never seen a unit reaching level 8 promoted by the time we get Kagetsu though (which is what she would need to be at -2 str), and most of my units don't level cap before reclassing by the end of the game. That's just my personal experience, but I also don't go for the lowest turn counts possible, so I find it hard to imagine Lapis reaching that benchmark without giving her like half of the exp every map has to offer.

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Well we aren't doing LTC cause this was never an LTC discussion.

I never said that it was; the main takeaway is the bit about the exp.

[DaveCozy]

^ The tier list referred to is in this thread: 

 

[Skyteppelin]

1 hour ago, DaveCozy said:

You can actually just skip past Hortensia in ch10 by Micaiah rewarping a group of units past the door, you can use Dragon!Alear with Micaiah which helps for the extra range. I have 3 turned that map before, and I'm sure there's faster strats by now specially with DLC. Still that chapter is very much so an "all hands on deck" because even the units that aren't re-warping past the door have stuff to do; like picking up the Draco Shield from the chest and the Energy Drop Goldmary has (not sure how much they matter in DLC LTCs but I found the energy drop at least to be pretty helpful in just an efficiency run). I can see a Wyvern Lapis helping in that context too.

Interesting that's neat, but yea even if you could like you mention a wyv Lapis is sitll really nice or even swordmaster cause both can solo which ever group you want to. So sending them on Golds side to kill everything and get the energy drop is really useful.

 

1 hour ago, samthedigital said:

You're still allowed to use staves in "efficient" play, but finishing consistently is more valuable than the turn count. It's a loosely defined term, but to me they should still be considered because it's part of the game. You don't necessarily have to warp skip or max move every single map, but I wouldn't give a unit credit for taking that extra time to get experience. I don't know where the topic is, but if you go look at Colonel M's tier list there's a FAQ that has a link to something Vykan posted years ago; that defines it better than I could.

How much of this are we doing is another question. We don't have to rewarp on every map or anything, but again, the more we do the less exp each unit is going to get. I certainly have never seen a unit reaching level 8 promoted by the time we get Kagetsu though (which is what she would need to be at -2 str), and most of my units don't level cap before reclassing by the end of the game. That's just my personal experience, but I also don't go for the lowest turn counts possible, so I find it hard to imagine Lapis reaching that benchmark without giving her like half of the exp every map has to offer.

I never said that it was; the main takeaway is the bit about the exp.

I know your allowed I was just highlight everything you would need to do to make Lapis not catch up to Kagetsu, its also not taking into account if you would maybe want those rewarp uses for later chapters or different things in said chapters. Also yea iv read the tier list and I agree with what CM says about it but really I think it helps my argument more then it doesn't cause everything he highlight on making a unit good in a efficient run would consider Lapis to be quite good. 

Again on all my runs Lapis gets a lot of EXP cause she is just a one man army that EPs everything, i'm now slowing down or taking forever she is just naturally getting it while moving forward. THe only way she isn't getting it is if you literally jump over the enemy's like a warp staff. If they in your army's way she can kill them alone. If you want other units to help and get some EXP sure but she doesn't need it she can kill them all on her own. Or anything she doesn't kill like 1-2 range enemy's she can just run past and leave it for other people to deal with while she gets closer to the boss (which is what I do). So like I do give her the EXP but that's just cause its so unbelievably easy for her to kill things while moving towards the boss with everyone.  The onyl thing I can admit is I haven't realyl done any runs with out lapis, full runs anyway iv done test runs between chapter 8-12 and it was always slower then with Lapis. Or at least required me to think more cause Lapis was such a move and forget unit cause she didn't need any support. 

[samthedigital]

4 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

its also not taking into account if you would maybe want those rewarp uses for later chapters or different things in said chapters.

With the well existing and Hortensia's skill now working with rewarp (pretty sure anyway; could be wrong on this one since I only saw it in passing) that's not an issue anymore, but it wasn't much of an issue before either.

6 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

Again on all my runs Lapis gets a lot of EXP cause she is just a one man army that EPs everything, i'm now slowing down or taking forever she is just naturally getting it while moving forward.

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I don't LTC ether but I also don't just turtle back on my last run with no DLC I finished chapter 11 in 4 turns and 12 in 5 or 6 can't remember of the top of my head.

We have different definitions of what it means to not slow down based on this which goes back to the core issue at hand. Repeating yourself isn't going to change the fact that you're looking at it from an entirely different perspective than others and yet wonder why people don't value Lapis as much as Chloe or Kagetsu.

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The onyl thing I can admit is I haven't realyl done any runs with out lapis, full runs anyway iv done test runs between chapter 8-12 and it was always slower then with Lapis. Or at least required me to think more cause Lapis was such a move and forget unit cause she didn't need any support. 

You're not going to see much of an impact without Lapis in a full game run. The game hands out enough units that it really doesn't make much of a difference. You could forego all of the early game units and it wouldn't matter that much honestly.

[Skyteppelin]

3 hours ago, samthedigital said:

With the well existing and Hortensia's skill now working with rewarp (pretty sure anyway; could be wrong on this one since I only saw it in passing) that's not an issue anymore, but it wasn't much of an issue before either.

We have different definitions of what it means to not slow down based on this which goes back to the core issue at hand. Repeating yourself isn't going to change the fact that you're looking at it from an entirely different perspective than others and yet wonder why people don't value Lapis as much as Chloe or Kagetsu.

You're not going to see much of an impact without Lapis in a full game run. The game hands out enough units that it really doesn't make much of a difference. You could forego all of the early game units and it wouldn't matter that much honestly.

You don't have horetensia at this point which is why I said it.

Bro idk what you want from what do we have a different definition from slowing down? Is moving your full move plus any extra distance from canter and using warp sometimes to get ahead? Is that slowing down cause if so show me what going fast is cause clearly there is a part of this game I'm missing. You repeating yourself isn't going to change anything ether, we obviously don't agree which we both seem to understand. Also don't speak for other people iv talked to many others here and in other places who at least understand where i'm coming from and can see the merits to my arguments. Iv said many times I do get why people vaule Chloe I just don't agree with some of thoe vaules and again other people have seen my point.

 

And? The game is made so you can use every unit well that has been how fire emblem has been designed for a decade now. That's why diffrences are often found in efficient resoruces use and other factors like.  Also idk why you are telling me i'm not going to see much impact with lapis in a full game run, I have iv used her many times, the reason I didn't use kagetsu on my first run was cause my Lapis states where better then his when he joined so I just didn't bother. My next run where I played far faster I still didn't use kagestu over Lapis cause she could get wyv earlier which put her ahead of him again so I didn't bother. And On my DLC run she got so stupid ahead of kagetsu thanks to star sphere that I again had no reason to switch to him. Not that using both is a bad thing if I was going for the best run I could I would use both, but there is no world where Lapis is impactful in a full game run from how iv heard literally everyone talked about when they used her.

But as you said where both just repeating ourselves so why don't we just call it here after you respond to my points cause where clearly not getting anyhwere and just going in circles.

[samthedigital]

12 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

Also idk why you are telling me i'm not going to see much impact with lapis in a full game run, I have iv used her many times, the reason I didn't use kagetsu on my first run was cause my Lapis states where better then his when he joined so I just didn't bother.

I didn't say that she wouldn't have an impact but that there wouldn't be much of a difference between using her and a mid-game unit. You said yourself that Kagetsu has similar stats, and he's not the only one that has good combat stats that the game gives us in the midgame.

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Bro idk what you want from what do we have a different definition from slowing down? Is moving your full move plus any extra distance from canter and using warp sometimes to get ahead? Is that slowing down cause if so show me what going fast is cause clearly there is a part of this game I'm missing.

I don't know how to tell you to play the game faster exactly, but if we're using the examples you provided... If I remember correctly the only thing that's required to three turn chapter 11 is to have Alear max move and canter every turn. That might require Griffin Knight with Obstruct or some other staff to ensure that Canter is always available, but I don't remember for sure. Chapter 12 can be finished in 1 turn with DLC and in 2 turns without, but I don't know the logistics of that. I still think that taking a couple extra turns is reasonable, but...

The other important thing to mention is that clearing the game in a low amount of turns doesn't necessarily mean doing an LTC either. I mentioned that I cheese just about every paralogue, but I wouldn't call my playthroughs LTCs because I often take a few more turns to clear a chapter here and there, and there are other ways of speeding up chapters too outside of turn count.

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But as you said where both just repeating ourselves so why don't we just call it here after you respond to my points cause where clearly not getting anyhwere and just going in circles.

If you don't want to respond anymore go ahead, but I have been trying to move the conversation forwards. What I have been trying to communicate more than anything else is that you can't necessarily use your playthroughs to show that Lapis is better than another unit in general; if someone is investing in more units Lapis isn't going to get as many levels. If they instead choose to have another unit rush forwards and give Lapis the secondary kills she's going to have less experience. If they're abusing staves their Lapis won't have as many levels, etc.  You get the idea; you can say that she's better for you, but that doesn't make for an interesting conversation, and I would assume that you'd have clarified this when I mentioned it earlier.

[Skyteppelin]

1 hour ago, samthedigital said:

I didn't say that she wouldn't have an impact but that there wouldn't be much of a difference between using her and a mid-game unit. You said yourself that Kagetsu has similar stats, and he's not the only one that has good combat stats that the game gives us in the midgame.

I don't know how to tell you to play the game faster exactly, but if we're using the examples you provided... If I remember correctly the only thing that's required to three turn chapter 11 is to have Alear max move and canter every turn. That might require Griffin Knight with Obstruct or some other staff to ensure that Canter is always available, but I don't remember for sure. Chapter 12 can be finished in 1 turn with DLC and in 2 turns without, but I don't know the logistics of that. I still think that taking a couple extra turns is reasonable, but...

The other important thing to mention is that clearing the game in a low amount of turns doesn't necessarily mean doing an LTC either. I mentioned that I cheese just about every paralogue, but I wouldn't call my playthroughs LTCs because I often take a few more turns to clear a chapter here and there, and there are other ways of speeding up chapters too outside of turn count.

If you don't want to respond anymore go ahead, but I have been trying to move the conversation forwards. What I have been trying to communicate more than anything else is that you can't necessarily use your playthroughs to show that Lapis is better than another unit in general; if someone is investing in more units Lapis isn't going to get as many levels. If they instead choose to have another unit rush forwards and give Lapis the secondary kills she's going to have less experience. If they're abusing staves their Lapis won't have as many levels, etc.  You get the idea; you can say that she's better for you, but that doesn't make for an interesting conversation, and I would assume that you'd have clarified this when I mentioned it earlier.

Right, but Lapis matchs the mid game power houses and is around earlier.

Yea I'm aware that's why I hate that we are focusing so much on turn count cause there are others way for a run to be good we are ignoring the idea of speed running all together, easy of the run, adaptable. But even then Iv done low turn clears of plenty of maps so id really apricate if just stopped assuming that your runs where faster then mine just cause you didn't use Lapis. I'm not stupid I know all this stuff excise i'm friends with CM and some other people who have done LTC i know how the runs work, I also know that there still really early on and some have been looking into the idea of trying Lapis as runs change. Which isn't to say Lapis will be more useful but its also not to say that she won't be. 

Also Iv also been trying to move this conversation forward id again appreciate if you didn't treat me like I was being difficult and instead think about how maybe your arguments haven't really done anything to convince me ether.  Listen buddy I freaking get that I use Lapis and that not everyone is using here like me. What I want YOU to get is that what i'm arguing for is this is one of the best and easiest ways to play the game because she is so strong. I'm really not a fan of treating this like its my fault like I'm not the one getting it cause I see what your saying I understand that my run is not everyone's run. But I want you to understand that iv talked to many other people about this and compared are runs and how certain chapters went for them and me. I really don't need you treating me like I don't get what your talking about I DO. Its just that I don't really agree Because the whole point of discussions of units and characters in game is to show how good they are when actually being used cause that is just how tier list work. The list discerption you have pointed to multiple time says as much. 

Iv aruged that Lapis is amazing because using her literally only helps you and never stops helping you, she makes all your runs easier no matter which way you slice it unless you give her legit nothing which sure go ahead do that with all the units you like to use as well and see how they do. There are some runs like LTC where she prob won't become as strong as kagetsu. Which iv said as much, but there are also plenty of fast ways to play where she will become as strong as him or even stronger. Along with access to things like canter, str, build, etc... She isn't a liability this isn't comparing a top tier to low tier this isn't comparing a top tier to at the very least a high tier. That has real merits over using that top tier. One more time, I understand that the way I play is not the only way to play iv talked to many other people who have played this game and seen there runs and have agreed or disagreed with units they think are good or bad. I'm not blind, I'm not narrow minded, I know these things exciset so stop treating it like I don't. When i'm talking about this stuff I'm using the context of anyone playing the game and what I think to be one of the strongest and easiest ways to go about it for anyone. 

[samthedigital]

56 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

Right, but Lapis matchs the mid game power houses and is around earlier.

I was originally responding to this:

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The onyl thing I can admit is I haven't realyl done any runs with out lapis, full runs anyway iv done test runs between chapter 8-12 and it was always slower then with Lapis.

Everything after but isn't relevant to that.

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Yea I'm aware that's why I hate that we are focusing so much on turn count cause there are others way for a run to be good we are ignoring the idea of speed running all together, easy of the run, adaptable. But even then Iv done low turn clears of plenty of maps so id really apricate if just stopped assuming that your runs where faster then mine just cause you didn't use Lapis.

I never said that my runs were faster than yours because I didn't used Lapis. I'm pretty sure what I actually said was that clearing chapters more quickly means that units get less experience; that's regardless of who is playing the game.

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Also Iv also been trying to move this conversation forward id again appreciate if you didn't treat me like I was being difficult and instead think about how maybe your arguments haven't really done anything to convince me ether.  Listen buddy I freaking get that I use Lapis and that not everyone is using here like me. What I want YOU to get is that what i'm arguing for is this is one of the best and easiest ways to play the game because she is so strong. I'm really not a fan of treating this like its my fault like I'm not the one getting it cause I see what your saying I understand that my run is not everyone's run. But I want you to understand that iv talked to many other people about this and compared are runs and how certain chapters went for them and me. I really don't need you treating me like I don't get what your talking about I DO. Its just that I don't really agree Because the whole point of discussions of units and characters in game is to show how good they are when actually being used cause that is just how tier list work. The list discerption you have pointed to multiple time says as much. 

If you want to move the conversation forwards you really have to address the experience issue which is what I've been focusing on for a while now. This is one of the first things you'll notice in Vykan's FAQ:

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a) Characters are compared based on how they contribute towards an efficient playthrough. By efficiency I am mainly referring to turn count and resource expenditure. Normally you’d expect a high tier unit to require fairly basic weapons and items while giving great returns in terms of their combat usefulness. Conversely, a lower ranked unit would probably require a lot of resources while giving less satisfactory combat returns.

and this is posted a little later:

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Inflated level: Assuming a unit is at a higher level at any point in the game than the unit should reasonably be. Deciding what a resonable level is depends on the assumed team size as well as a few other factors, so it’s a tricky subject. Usually you’ll see debaters say things like “assuming a 10 man team, 1.4 levels per chapter sounds pretty reasonable”. It usually helps to substantiate these claims using exp formulas which can be found in the site’s calculation section for a specific game.

The main point of contention is the benchmarks that you claim Lapis hits require that she be at a level I find to be too high for that point in the game when playing efficiently.

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There are some runs like LTC where she prob won't become as strong as kagetsu. Which iv said as much, but there are also plenty of fast ways to play where she will become as strong as him or even stronger.

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When i'm talking about this stuff I'm using the context of anyone playing the game and what I think to be one of the strongest and easiest ways to go about it for anyone.

The thing is that your criteria is pretty vague. Efficiency is not the greatest term either, but at least there are a few things that we can objectively measure.