Masquerade Mafia - Universal Loss

[Olivier]

Oh, cool, well at least whatver vauge suspicion you have on me isn't as awful for the following vauge reason to vote Vader.

I encrypted that too badly, but basically I'm mocking him for his excuse of a vote which was preceded by different excuse of a vote.

[Marisa Kirisame]

And now I'm voted for my research. But will you guys stop writing so many pages?

Resolute #130 ends up having all the same opinons Jugger has, so I guess he's actually pretty cool in my book.

What is this supposed to mean? You're telling us that agreeing with your opinions is a towntell?

I posted 1 liners I won't deny, but I did that when on RVS, responding to Fluttershy, Telling Javert to add quotes, and some Rapier moment.

While Supreme here posted 1 liners about cheerleading, and a 1 liner excuse for voting Orion.

That said, I still don't like Orion:

Jugger is likely scum although his last few posts look a bit better so he is not as scum. Vader is most scum now because I don't like how he's not quite scumhunting. He's just posting a lot of generic "so-and-so is fishy, I don't like so-and-so" with no explanation all over the place.

Be fair for once, this is your first scumhunting post in a while.

Yes, it started as an RVS vote, but why does that matter when I explained why I was keeping it there? It's not like I just left my vote there to avoid saying anything about it, so I don't think it's relevant that I voted Jugger in RVS too? Also I've explained why that post of Jugger's hasn't influenced my opinion of him, because I didn't really understand it.

Let's do a little pretend, what if everybody voted you. Then you post a reason that you think could get you out. But everybody disregarded it and continued to vote you anyway. How would that make you feel?

The least you could do was respond, you only did so after I specifically asked you about it.

@England I've explained this many times and I don't feel like doing it again. And which Kumaneko post do you want me to respond to?

Anyway, keeping my vote where it is for now.

[Refakitty³]

way to miss the point. i know you find bob scummy but exactly why is what he did worse? specifically? why are the reasons you put below a better vote than i was?

Because I was waiting for you to either update the vote or stop voting me before I made my decision about whether you were more likely to be town or scum. I was quite honestly expecting you to drop it, or at least lower the suspicion, but you didn't, and just attacked even harder, which is why I went from more likely scum to more likely town.

[Olivier]

Having the same reads as another player isn't a towntell btw, but it's pretty hard to find a player who's pretty much come to the same conclusions to be scum, so there's that.

I didn't explicitly say he was a town-read, I think.

[Nemu Kurotsuchi]

Orion, I don't even understand what you said about Jugger in that last post. Can you link which post you're referring to? I don't see how Fluttershy is misrepping you either. Your Jugger vote also has the same flaw as Bob's in that Jugger ignoring people saying the wagon was fast is apparently scummy somehow?

About Jugger saying easy stuff?

Secondary Process: To add to this, Supreme Ruler has had very little to say. The program's Termination Orders were simple enough (and not bad), but I would like to be able to process more input from that program in the near future.

I do think the tone of this quoted input is slightly exaggerated itself, however, which makes the Termination Order seem less justified then it is, in the opinion of Jugger, and makes the post seem less sincere.

Uncle Bob requires a Termination Order. Please input termination order with reasoning. Post appears wishy-washy.

I'm actually inclined to agree with this, Jugger does not really like the SR wagon at all. IIRC I commented earlier (post #85) that he needed more content, but I didn't think he was scummy for the lack of such.

Darth Vader #127 really bothers me for some reason, especially the vote. Jugger can't put my finger on why, but I think it's because his reasoning seems really lacking.

Darth, England, Kuroneko, Bob. Fluttershy and f5 haven't stuck out to me a lot, which I think is bad. I have a few town reads as well.

If you're not thinking lack of content is scummy, then pointing out lack of content is really just a prod, so a lot of this is fairly empty. And "this guy doesn't look great but idk why" is something, but again, it's easy to say.

Fluttershy's misrep was in saying I didn't give reasons for Jugger being scummier than the rest of the wagon, or say anything else about it, and also making it look like I was just going on about the reaction test thing when it's just because people were still accusing me of stuff over it, and I was just replying to them.

Also, townies should take into account how fast a wagon is building, and how many votes are already on someone. That's all I'm saying.

You don't understand my post, you ask for clarification (which I gave here, but your opinion hasn't moved because you still don't understand it. Good job.

That's about the most somewhat sensible statement, but suggesting a D1 lurker lynch is lazy. bad, and denies town information.

And your opinion matters so much more.

Um, no, I've indicated by now quite clearly that I read your explanation, good job misrepping me based on an older post, too.

Please tell me where I suggested a D1 lurker lynch. The accusation was made that if Resolute promised to be active or whatever in reply to my question about why he shouldn't be lynched, I could argue that he should be lynched when he later didn't contribute, therefore my actions could have had scum intent to set up a mislynch. I replied by saying lynching someone when they're not doing anything useful later on isn't that absurd anyway. Key word being "later". You know, not D1. Also I'm not suggesting that anyway, I'm saying I'd hardly have to do anything that extreme to push an inactivity lynch.

Oh, wow, Jugger is right. My opinion doesn't matter any more than anybody else's! I should really stop acting like my thoughts matter. After all, my opinion of who's scummy isn't any better. :P

Let's do a little pretend, what if everybody voted you. Then you post a reason that you think could get you out. But everybody disregarded it and continued to vote you anyway. How would that make you feel?

The least you could do was respond, you only did so after I specifically asked you about it.

I don't even know what point you're trying to make here.

Having the same reads as another player isn't a towntell btw, but it's pretty hard to find a player who's pretty much come to the same conclusions to be scum, so there's that.

I didn't explicitly say he was a town-read, I think.

Saying someone is "pretty cool" or whatever does kinda imply a townread.

General request to everyone: please don't be jerks. I've edited this post to not get too angry at people way too many times. I don't care if you think I'm a terrible mafia player, but I have better things to do than get irritated by people being quite this condescending to me. In particular that "be fair for once" comment really got on my nerves, I don't exactly think I treat everyone unfairly based on playing a game badly? I'm getting extremely fed up with anony games on SF because of how everyone acts so much more annoying when their name isn't on their posts. >_>

[Nemu Kurotsuchi]

Okay, small correction to that complaint of mine, it's hardly everyone who acts like a jerk in anony games, sorry.

[Kamina]

I have no idea if I'll be capable of doing anything tomorrow, which is why I'm posting now. I may snap at people. Don't take it personally.

Well that's what I meant it as. You're misreading my tone.

Then you'll have to deal with this being a point against you, because this is what I read.

Perhaps not but it can start discussion and I didn not think anyone on that wagon is vote worthy.

Let me ask you this: Do you, at the time I made my post, think that the people on that wagon were vote worthy? Would you have agreed with that wagon at the time I made my post? Then let me ask you if it would've been better had I not posted to out my opinion at all?

If I thought the wagon was so bad that I felt the need to vocalize it, my vote would be on who I thought was worst. Obviously, I don't hold the same opinion about the wagon - given Orion's actions, I felt it wasn't too bad.

I'm not sure how saying "I disagree with that wagon" makes me neutral?

It's one way to make yourself look like you're staying relevant without accusing anyone of anything. If the wagon was so bad, why weren't you calling individual people out on it?

How is me saying the word hypocrite being aggressive? I was using Jugger's words; he called me a hypocrite and I don't know why. That was me asking for clarification on why Jugger voted me so I could address them.

It's all in how it's worded. What you just posted is more neutral. What you originally posted was not.

As for "not addressing ChanServ's points against him" that entire first paragraph was dedicated to that, I even specifically mentioned ChanServ in that paragraph and it's not like he has pointed me to anything which I missed so it seems he thinks I've addressed enough. Once clarified I also addressed JUgger's points to. Saying that I ignored 2/3 of my wagon is a total misrep. Either that or you failed to read my post.

This is what ChanServ said, in regards to you:

##Vote: Uncle Bob, due to what I (and Resolute) said earlier. He didn't take a clear stance on Orion, and despite calling out the wagon, makes no attempt to find scum there, and actually defends one of the people on it.

This is what you replied with:

I would like to begin by saying that the last line of my second post-RVS post is badly worded. I was simply trying to get the people on the wagon to reconsider their vote or to address the issues. Chanserv you said that I thought the votes were bad, but I didn't say that. I believed that the votes were thought out but I disagreed with the idea that Orion is scum simply because he wanted to policy lynch a miller claim.

I have no idea what you're responding to, since that's not what ChanServ said. The tone in this rebuttal is quite different from the rest of your post. Why?

And tbh Kumaneko should be getting more attention, everyone seems to think what they've done is scummy/bad yet she's getting off relatively easily compared to Darth/Orion who just seem like lazy players, which exist and have been shown to be both scum and town before in games. I would obviously like to see more of them though and I'm not going to miss any sleep if they're lynched because what they've done so far hasn't been great.

I like this paragraph, both in terms of tone and content. Kumaneko's content up to that post struck me more as inactive than lazy, and I don't like the dearth of personal interaction in that player slot. I'd rather lynch someone with more interpersonal reads, but I'm not going to throw a hissy fit if Kumaneko winds up being lynched. Then this little gem came about, and now I'm more inclined to think that Kumaneko is lazy.

I'll gladly "unhook my brain from the reaction test", as you put it. Would you mind, though, pointing out exactly what I've said about it besides responding to direct questions or accusations that you think should have been addressed by me?

misrep better pls

You had early votes on you, yet you did nothing with everyone else, and only focused on Jugger. Why did the others warrant no attention? Why are you only responding to things, and not making your own headway? Your reaction to my statement was also terrible - that wasn't a misrep, that is what I see when I read your ISO backwards.

I humbly request that a theoretical dayvig shoots the next person after me to claim any sort of misrep, because I am sick and tired of seeing that word.

And now I'm voted for my research. But will you guys stop writing so many pages?

Do the game a favor, and post your thoughts on everyone that you feel needs to be lynched, and why.

Here's where I snap. My head is going numb, so my decency goes out the window.

##Unvote

##Vote: Orion

Uncle Bob, at least, is attempting to scumhunt. Sitting back and responding to things, with your biggest contribution being an elaborate reaction test with the shittiest wagon use I've ever seen is really anti-town. Complain about misrep all you want - you've posted yourself into this, and I have had it with you. Your reaction to my statement (which I am reading in the whiniest tone possible, because that's exactly how it comes across) is what convinced me to move my vote.

[Nemu Kurotsuchi]

lol I love how Fluttershy doesn't even care about me correcting his false accusation. Wanna explain what was scummy about my reaction, then?

[Sham]

I'd still like Jugger to summarize the case on Uncle Bob instead of ignoring me, even if the wagon is mostly dead. Obviously he's going to find me forgettable like he said when he's not acknowledging my posts. I also still want everybody to comment on whether they think England is scummy or not. His recent post doesn't do him any favors in my book, since he ignores any criticism against him and I still can't tell why SupremeRuler was the only Orion voter calling out. It has me continuing to think he's just posting words to look productive instead of paying attention like a townie. We probably don't have time to wagon him, but yeah.

[Nemu Kurotsuchi]

You had early votes on you, yet you did nothing with everyone else, and only focused on Jugger. Why did the others warrant no attention? Why are you only responding to things, and not making your own headway? Your reaction to my statement was also terrible - that wasn't a misrep, that is what I see when I read your ISO backwards.

I humbly request that a theoretical dayvig shoots the next person after me to claim any sort of misrep, because I am sick and tired of seeing that word.

What do you mean, I did nothing with anyone else? I'm pretty sure I've been talking about other people too? btw I'm not responsible for you not seeing stuff, so I don't know what you mean by the "not a misrep" thing. Me stating why I voted Jugger over Chanserv and SR should be in my ISO no matter what order you read it in.

also this statement is way more whiny than anything I said, just sayin'

[Refakitty³]

It feels like a lot of Orion's content is reactionary. Most of his posts involve defending himself. Only like two or three of his posts seem to be dedicated towards actually scumhunting. He also gave reasons for why Jugger's more recent posts were scummy, yet in his vote of Darth, he said that some of Jugger's more recent posts were better, which made him slightly less scummy than Darth.

[Ochako Uraraka]

'Kay then.

Ignoring the ChanSlice interactions right now because I'm not really sure what to make of it.

I would like to begin by saying that the last line of my second post-RVS post is badly worded. I was simply trying to get the people on the wagon to reconsider their vote or to address the issues. Chanserv you said that I thought the votes were bad, but I didn't say that. I believed that the votes were thought out but I disagreed with the idea that Orion is scum simply because he wanted to policy lynch a miller claim.

Scum can think out their votes too, you know. To me it just read like you wanted some towncred for defending me, even though it ended pretty badly. And why are you so hesitant to get such a major reason to vote anyway? The game was just moving out of RVS, you didn't need to rewrite the life works of Shakespeare to justify a vote. You talked about your distaste for the wagon but didn't actually do anything about it, even though the way you wrote that implies that you thought that Orion getting lynched solely off of the "lynch the miller" suggestion was realistic. But shouldn't that have meant that you needed to take on more active measures to dissolve the wagon, rather than sitting off to the side and mumbling about how you don't like it?

It seems opportunistic and lazy. Was Jugger not keeping up with the thread at all? Did he not care about the opposition to the wagon? He said that he saw some malicious program or some nonsense and that he voted it, but that just gives me the impression that he saw something he just disagreed with and voted for it, which is either town jumping to conclusions or again, is scum trying to lynch an easy target.

I got trapped in quote boxes then and spent 2 minutes trying to get out of it D:

Anyway, I don't really feel like you're being fare on Jugger here. At that time in the game, there only thing going on was the Orion wagon. So no, he has been reading the game, and he made his own choice with it. To me it sounds like you're attacking him just for having a different opinion than you, which last time I checked didn't equate to him being scum. And again, you seemed to think that Orion was in serious danger of getting lynched at that point, which is interesting.

Everything that you can say about DV has already been said, and there's nothing really objectively wrong with it. I think Orion is scummier, though, because DV actually tries to make his opinions clear instead of coasting without next to no content, even if what he has to say is pretty weak. Also, I have this feeling that DV is just a bad townie which I don't get from Orion, particularly because of him acting indignant about thinking something others have already said. Call it gut. Depending on how he reacts to future pressure I'd actually vote Bob over him if this feeling persists.

I'm not really fond of the "bad townie" argument. He pretty much says that "the case is good, but I don't think he's scum, but I'm keeping my options open" when you break it down, which I don't like.

And tbh Kumaneko should be getting more attention, everyone seems to think what they've done is scummy/bad yet she's getting off relatively easily compared to Darth/Orion who just seem like lazy players, which exist and have been shown to be both scum and town before in games. I would obviously like to see more of them though and I'm not going to miss any sleep if they're lynched because what they've done so far hasn't been great.

Not a big fan of this logic. Kumaneko's had what, 4 posts? Of course there's going to be more to say about you/Darth/Orion, who've had over double to quadruple his post count. People can't make content out of posts that aren't there. You also sound like you're kind of neutral on Darth and Orion at the end :/

Orion honestly isn't scumhunting much and a bunch of his posts (example) just seem to be responses to people, be it about his scumreads or defending himself. He isn't really producing a lot of content on his own.

ChanServ and Mint Slice's arguments are hard to read, so much emotion :P Looks to me like ChanServ commenting on one of Mint Slice's early posts led to Mint Slice arguing hard against him and voting him over misrep. Now the two of them are fighting over ChanServ saying Mint Slice is "voteparking" him.

I don't really like this bit, if you don't know how to read emotion, fair enough, but we don't need a retelling that doesn't actually tell us how you think of ChanServ/Mint Slice. I also find it suspect how his vote is still on Kumaneko when he's barely mentioned him all game. I mean I get that he's been inactive, but you only mentioned him once in that post, and that was when you were questioning someone else. Do you still think that his three posts outweigh everything that other people in the thread have done?

Your point on Orion was pretty solid though.

This game is hard and I wasn't around and I am wanting to be really lazy and uninterested. That's not good. Sigh. Let me read through the thread from my last post. Wherever that was.

BAD. This kind of reminds me of scum!SB from C9++ who pretty much played the disinterested card as hard as he could. He also promises content, but we don't even get any sort of notification that he's not done reading, or whatever. Get some damn content out, or at least keep us notified that you're not done reading rather than disappearing like that.

Annoyingly, I don't think there's enough to peg him up with yet, though.

Page 11 has more walls so I'll try and tackle that sometime this afternoon.

[C. C.]

Recent events enlighten me as to the fact that Orion is also a worthy lynch target still. England's arguments sound rehashed, like he's just repeating what everyone's said already and I honestly would not mind multiple nooses.

DARTH VADER!

All right, let's take a flight of fancy:

Suppose no one had voted me at all, but all those unhappy with my one-liners are still unhappy with the one-liners. Lo, comes SupremeRuler, quoting one line and posting a one-liner, blatantly disregarding all complaints about this conduct.

Is this action indicative of alignment, and regardless of, what do you think the reaction would have been from Town? :-)

The futility of votes serving as pressure should be highlighted by me not getting my questions answered despite voting you. (｡’▽’｡)♡

This is important. I think the answer is obvious but I would like to hear your take on it.

[Olivier]

I'm still not really interested in wagoning Bob, as I just don't understand how his shift in tone conceals scum intent. I'd vote him for over a townread at deadline, but he's the least scummy of our current wagons. If Jugger wants to summarize the case on Bob without using quotestripes then I'll give it a read, but the wagons seems like leftovers from ED1 at the moment.

I saw this earlier and couldn't do anything about it since I only had time to cover Orion's post (and I caught you complaining about it later)

Summarizing Bob:

-His original vote on my is hypocritical.He disapproved of votes on the RVS wagon, but later said he didn't think they were scummy, but later jumped on people who voted Orion (me) with some pretty lame reasons. He came back to justify the vote for one of my posts being cryptic. His current vote is bad because it doesn't require much reasoning, while at the same time he has little to say about the leading wagon. At least that's what I summarized in my last post about him.

Bob:

Kumaneko is not the easiest target, Darth clearly is as he's the main wagon.

Darth is easy to sheep, but Kuroneko has only two content posts and both of them are short and awful. I could make a two-line case and slap a vote down and it'd be good enough reason to vote him. It's a zero-effort vote. The rest of your content is "eh this guy is kind of scummy I guess"

[Olivier]

About Jugger saying easy stuff?

If you're not thinking lack of content is scummy, then pointing out lack of content is really just a prod, so a lot of this is fairly empty. And "this guy doesn't look great but idk why" is something, but again, it's easy to say.

Cool cherrypicking.

Fluttershy's misrep was in saying I didn't give reasons for Jugger being scummier than the rest of the wagon, or say anything else about it, and also making it look like I was just going on about the reaction test thing when it's just because people were still accusing me of stuff over it, and I was just replying to them.

Also, townies should take into account how fast a wagon is building, and how many votes are already on someone. That's all I'm saying.

You've barely said anything about me, anyway.

Um, no, I've indicated by now quite clearly that I read your explanation, good job misrepping me based on an older post, too.

....and? You didn't respond to it at all. I left that response there and you never went back to it.

Please tell me where I suggested a D1 lurker lynch. The accusation was made that if Resolute promised to be active or whatever in reply to my question about why he shouldn't be lynched, I could argue that he should be lynched when he later didn't contribute, therefore my actions could have had scum intent to set up a mislynch. I replied by saying lynching someone when they're not doing anything useful later on isn't that absurd anyway. Key word being "later". You know, not D1. Also I'm not suggesting that anyway, I'm saying I'd hardly have to do anything that extreme to push an inactivity lynch.

I was arguing over the reasoning of lynching a lurker

Inactivity, like, not being around and being busy with RL is not a scumtell. Lurking so you don't have to risk making yourself look scummy is.

This quote doesn't contain the word "later" anyway.

Oh, wow, Jugger is right. My opinion doesn't matter any more than anybody else's! I should really stop acting like my thoughts matter. After all, my opinion of who's scummy isn't any better. :P

Snark invites snark I guess vOv

[Olivier]

I need to make less response posts but nobody else aside from Orion and Bob are jumping out at me as scummy. They're both on the top of my "Terminate" list, followed by England and Kuroneko, followed by Darth Vader.

England's last post is really scummy because he just makes a bunch of passive "eh" opinions on everyone. He doesn't look like he's trying to scumhunt, and the reads he is pushing aren't telling at all. Where is his vote again? He needs to clarify on who's the scummiest and why.

[Olivier]

EBWOP: Oh, it's on Kuro. No wonder he has nothing to say about his vote and why the player is still scummy.

(this should be a hint as to why I dislike the wagon)

Kuro needs to be vigged, in my opinion.

[Olivier]

Maybe I should really clarify on the Kuroneko wagon. In my opinion the votes on him are incredibly easy to make, and since he has no new content, it's easy for said players to coast on that vote because the original posts are so bad you don't have to justify getting off them.

[Shiki Ryougi]

@ Fluttershy: I had a scumread on Javert earlier but with his last response I'm a bit unsure because it seems that we disagree on each other's interpretations/style of playing

I hadn't pushed Orion for his vote on Jugger but that's because he already had enough pressure on him and I thought Vader was scummier. Currently I wouldn't mind an Orion lynch since his attempts at scumhunting haven't improved, but I think Darth's "I was trying to gain info!" and then not even outing anything useful is worse. Admittedly I haven't read much on the Uncle Bob case yet, which i'll be doing in a while (I'll be off for a couple of hours)

I disagree that England's scummy; partly because I think even if he's doing a recap that's not necessarily scummy considering one is bound to say things the others have said, especially if their timezone's unkind to them; the other reason being I think the player playing that slot is Shin- Shin's meta suggests that he does this as town as well. And while you can tell me that playing using meta is bad in an anonymous game, well tell me why do people make themselves look obvious then? This is more on a subconscious level, my apologies.

[Shiki Ryougi]

I don't like Chanserv's(Hi BBM) post ##179. It seems you are using meta to tell us why Darth is town, yet you won't tell us who Darth MIGHT be. That's like taking middle ground- "I think so and so is not that scummy because they are PLAYER, but I don't wanna out who they most likely are!"

Furthermore, the "i can't decide who is worse, Darth or Kumaneko." is ikrsome because you are comparing two players: One who has lots of posts and has done something some consider 'scummy.' and another player who, in their very few posts, had a bad vote with very little explanation.

But ok, say you couldn't really figure which of them is more scummy. What made you change your mind in ##188 toward's darth's direction? You gave no reasoning as to why in your lynch priority, Darth> Kumaneko.

[Shiki Ryougi]

Also i'd like you all to answer this question:

1.Say Orion isn't going to get lynched today for unusual circumstances. Who would you lynch and why? (You could also replace Orion with Darth in the question if you'd like)

For this I'd personally say if not Darth i'd vote orion at this point of time, but I still need to read Uncle Bob and Chanserv has caught my attention now.

Also I'd like a theoretical vig to shoot Kumaneko. Opinions on this?

and I'll be back in a few hours.

[Olivier]

Also i'd like you all to answer this question:

1.Say Orion isn't going to get lynched today for unusual circumstances. Who would you lynch and why? (You could also replace Orion with Darth in the question if you'd like)

I need to make less response posts but nobody else aside from Orion and Bob are jumping out at me as scummy. They're both on the top of my "Terminate" list, followed by England and Kuroneko, followed by Darth Vader.

[Marisa Kirisame]

I'm very bad at skimming.

Chanserv #179 Whoever did you think I was, I'm 95% sure that you're wrong. Stop wasting your time on meta. seriously.

Supreme Ruler: ^see above^ No, it's not what you might call alignment indication. You would be a dick but not guaranteed scum.

[Shiki Ryougi]

Ok, I read Bob, and I have to say, I don't like how he disagrees with the Orion wagon and later says he 'didn't find it scummy.' If you were saying that you disagree with the Orion votes, what was the point of your post back then? Saying stuff like "Wow four votes piled up in 10 minutes." doesn't sound like a mere disagreement to me. Whatever, I think this point has already been addressed earlier.

I think while the later posts you defended yourself better, your switch to Kumaneko is not... optimal imho. Kumaneko doesn't even have content to work on; if they're inactive they'll just be subbed out and we'll have new content to work on. Their votes are bad, yes, but voting for someone with barely any activity is just not great at all. Also handwaving Darth and Orion as just 'lazy players' makes it worse. Ok then, if you think they're lazy, who do you think is scummy/ worth a lynch and isn't anybody named Kumaneko?

[Shiki Ryougi]

Still find Darth scummiest though, at least Bob is trying to justify his poor voting; Darth couldn't even do that- he just had a poor voting history, defended it by saying he wanted to get info, and hasn't even outed any new reads/ info. It has just been all about Orion so far. Really, what is this info that you've been trying to compile, Darth?