Masquerade Mafia - Universal Loss

[Olivier]

I'll wait to see what Mint has to see about Jugger before I make my mind about him. Possibly I've been giving him too much of a pass for the towntell earlier. fffff made a good point about Jugger's change of opinion about the validity of a Kumaneko vote. Jugger, if Kumaneko was in your top 5 scumpicks, why is England's vote there "good" but Bob's vote there "bad"?

Don't know what to tell you. I had a change in opinion I guess over if a Kuroneko vote was good or not, I suppose. What I probably meant is that I liked the vote was on a scummy person. I thought England was scummy later anyway, but I didn't voice that I had a change in opinion that the vote itself was bad? That's the best I can give you for an answer, believe it or not.

[Estelle]

implies it hard. again, gj. as town you'd kinda remember where your suspicions are whereas scum are trying to fake suspicions and hence might drop them occasionally (normally in contradiction), which is something i don't see enough people do

addenum: "i don't see enough people do" is meaning people calling others out on that shit, which doesn't actually happen that much here at sf

[Estelle]

i like a jugger lynch more after walling that shit, feels good man

[Estelle]

and now i sleep

have fun digesting the wall of scumproving

[Olivier]

I think I need to ISO myself because I don't remember exactly what I said earlier and it would probably be a good idea to do that before I get more attacks that I forgot an opinion I had and changed it later.

[Olivier]

I'm not really inclined to read all of these mint posts because they're strewn about like a mess and that makes it harder to read then a text wall.

[Olivier]

Man it must be really easy to scream misrep all day as fun little additives to your case. (sarcasm)

Oh son of a bitch I'm making stream-of-consciousness posts now, better stop.

I'm just going to paraphrase things because I'm lazy and I don't want to go find every post I want to hit the quote button for

Mint Sez:

Your Kuroneko vote is passive-aggressive etc etc you're bad.

The quoted logic is wrong because it's a really weak reasoning. Why do I need to make a paragraph explaining this?

Kuroneko Sez:

people joining in on the wagon a bit later are more likely to be scum.

Really, could you have a weaker reasoning? There's no "this is why x is scum" here, it's just an observation that scum tend to hop on a wagon later.

Mint Sez:

"implies it hard. again, gj. as town you'd kinda remember where your suspicions are whereas scum are trying to fake suspicions and hence might drop them occasionally (normally in contradiction), which is something i don't see enough people do"

No, I sometimes forget where my suspicions are, Yes, I said the vote was originally good. That's a fair observation. Great. So why is it so wrong I changed opinions later? It it scummy because I went "Oh, Kuroneko isn't such a good vote after all, Kuroneko isn't posting any more and he isn't coming back. Maybe a vote like that is going to look really weak down the line because he only has two posts and they're both pretty bad but also short, Kuro makes a better vig target then a lynch."?

Golly gee, maybe the fact Kuro stopped posting stagnated any opinions I had that he was a good vote after all.

Mint Sez:

...loaded question even though you had the option to answer as per the added bold? so instead you attack it as a loaded question, okay seems legit (not)

"Jugger: You have three options. Choosing A will make you look bad. Choosing B will make you look bad. Choosing C will make you look bad. But feel free to come up with your own answer that isn't one of those, even though all of those answers contain decent thought processes followed by self-incriminating consequences."

Mint Sez:

quoting all of the observations I made of earlier posts and then saying they're all bad

Coolfax: That whole thing was basically copied and pasted out of Notepad as a "write em as you see em" readthrough. The conclusion is where I thought about it more later and came to a.... well... conclusion on what I was thinking after I read everything.

Mint Sez:

"@bolded: and just because someone doesn't stand out, does not necessarily mean they are scum. look at 2hu nocfia and how the less impressionable people were the ones we mislynched."

Bad =/= "automatically a scumfriend kill it with fire"

They needed to post more, because I couldn't come up with a solid read on them. Is that unreasonable?

and yet you currently think from recent posts that [bob] might not be scum from the tracker shenanigans (or at least you don't think he's scum!vig which is dubious in itself because lolwhat???

Bob's posts are scummy, yeah? But we have two nightkills and I'm inclined to believe, bar Darth getting incredibly lucky on his lightningrod shot (assuming he even used it), that Darth wasn't the NK. And if not, there's three scum anyway (I hope), and I can come back to him tomorrow if his claim doesn't pan out.

fencesitting again and also at the start of the sentence suddenly having a more concrete opinion, as a discrepancy to the rest of the post

Fencesitting even though Darth flipped town and even though I already had four other scumreads with priority to him?????????????????????????????

BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT Jugger is a massive hypocrite because Bob came much later in the day to vote a player who's scuminess had effectively stagnated because he only had two posts.

Oh whoops I ended up paraphrasing my own thoughts on that last tidbit. Darn.

[Olivier]

Anyway I'm going to change whatever earlier stance I had on England compared to Bob voting Kuroneko. England's post came only a bit after my stance on Kuroneko was posted, so I was content with agreeing with it.

Most of the day passed by without another word from Kuroneko to at least save face on his terrible posts, though, so by that point I was annoyed with how easily anyone could have made a case on him. Hell, I was pretty confident my "these posts are terrible because it jumps off one wagon just to make another vote that basically doesn't explain anything why x is scum" reasoning would be good enough for a vote, which is weak considering there's so many more people who have a lot more content to analyze and more scummy behavior.

Sure enough Bob came along and made that vote, so I attacked him for it. Bob didn't even move the vote until deadline, which I think was just coasting on the Kuroneko vote all day.

[Olivier]

Anyway I still think Mint is just throwing things around until something sticks, and apparently the timing of my posts was enough for him to find something to stick too.

[Refakitty³]

Neither did England. He also kept his vote on Kumaneko until close to the end of the phase. Again, why was that instance of voteparking okay? Especially as England started voting Kumaneko before Bob did.

[Olivier]

Neither did England. He also kept his vote on Kumaneko until close to the end of the phase. Again, why was that instance of voteparking okay? Especially as England started voting Kumaneko before Bob did.

My point was it wasn't okay later, I just never openly went back to England to bug him about it.

[All Might]

interesting choice of target; but i can run with that. question bob: is it an unlimited neighborize? if it is, we can prove that out tonight, provided you don't out your target in thread.

bob, criticizing a power role isn't always scummy; we've had people blindly sheep reaction tests in the past (C9++, where the reaction test guilty was made by scum), so questioning claimed PR's for their logic is probably a good thing. how exactly is it scummy to criticize a PR, pray tell?

also possible baseless rolespec question for people: we have a claimed miller implying a cop, and a tracker claim. do you people think we have both?

Interesting how? Do you still think CS is scummy, and if not, what changed your opinion of him? Do you agree with anything I said?

Yes it is but I can only talk to the person I targetted for one day.

Undermining a PR is bad because it means town might question true results. You immediately jumped to the conclusion that Flutter was faking her report without even hearing what I had to say. It's not about believing every claim it's about not calling people out when you don't know the whole story. Imagine if people were convinced by you and just wagoned and hammered. The tracker has then just been lynched before I even commented and revealed that yes, Flutter probably IS the tracker as she got my target correct. Maybe it's not scummy, but it's definitely anti-town.

Yes I don't see why we can't have both.

Bob, I didn't say it yesterday because I didn't think of it yesterday. If you look at how I worded that argument, you'll see it was sparked from what Javert said. Also, I'm not criticizing you for finding Kumaneko worse than Darth. The point is that you were defending Darth while still pushing for that lynch. You said that both Orion and Darth looked just like lazy players, who could be either alignment, and then said that you still wouldn't mind their lynch, but people should go for Kumaneko instead. Saying that Darth just looked lazy is defending him. And then you went on to vote for him later anyways, so ???

As for "hypocritical criticisms formed under pressure", even it was true in this instance, which it isn't, it'd still be picking one thing out of a whole bunch of things that I've done and said. If you're going to vote me, I'd like a case that's less cherry-picked.

And using WIFOM isn't even scummy. Instead of saying that it is in a blanket statement, provide instances of it where it has been unwarranted from my part.

Fair but what do you think of my response to Javert? Is it satisfying, am I missing something? I can kinda see what Mint meant by calling you over defensive, you didn't push on me at all and instead went to defend yourself. I can kinda see that in your original post too as you kinda just latch on to what Javert said to justify your suspicion of me. You said you had nothing to add but I made a large opinion post when I switched my vote and yet you barely commented on it (you called my switch of opinion "iffy" but that's it) and I was supposed to be your 3rd highest scumread so you should really be paying attention and thinking about what I'm saying more. Unsure is being over defensive is scummy though as Orion was being over defensive in the sense that a lot of his posts were just responses to other people's criticisms. You're definitely different from Orion though as you're not being over defensive from laziness.

Also I fail to see what is scummy about going "Darth looks kinda lazy but Kuma is actually scummy" then going "Well Kuma clearly is never going to answer these criticisms and I reread Darth and I think he could be scum after all". As for cherry-picking, I found something I didn't like about you so I voted it. My two biggest scum reads were dayvigged and Nk'd so it doesn't take a lot.

It's scummy because it's telling us what the scum will and won't do, which can throw town off of the actual scum trail.

Jugger "not caring as he hopped on" is a towntell, not a scumtell, because scum are more wary of that than town are.

Handwaving criticisms is bad but apparently because scum knows it's bad they wouldn't do it.

I don't think you're mafia atm, because them jumping onto a wagon after it's been called as overly fast and sheepy seems dumb for me.

Because dumb scum do not exist.

I don't think Orion would claim vanilla to get out of a lynch as scum at this point in the phase.

I agreed that Orion was town, but scum could very well have goons which would obviously claim vanilla. Hell you even went on to say "Plus most mafias are given Vanillas a fake when they exist." which implies that scum could use vanilla fakeclaims, so you discredited the reason why you unvoted Orion. (you described this WIFOM as what made Orion better than Vader.) Do you still agree with this point?

I doubt that the mafia or a SK would have killed Darth, someone who so many people thought was mafia.

This is the worst one because it's downplaying the possible existence of a second anti-town kill when you have no idea if Darth hit a killer or not.

Here's 4 instances of WIFOM which I disagree with. You're clearing and suspecting people based on actions you'd think a scum would do based on what scum thinks townies think scum would do. As for this, because I meant to respond but forgot:

As for me using WIFOM a lot, I'll admit I do, because I think that real scumtells are what people do to avoid the more "traditional" scumtells, half of which apply to bad play just as much as they apply to scummy play anyways.

If "Traditional" scumtells apply to bad play, then surely players trying to avoid them means that they're trying to play well?

In addition to this, WIFOMing is not your only case of bad logic leading town astray; let's not forget using meta as a reason for voting Orion. There have been other people who have WIFOM'd this game and they're at fault too but you're the most guilty of it.

This took longer than I thought and all of my enthusiasm for mafia right now. I'll ISO Mint and Jugger and let them squabble for a while before I make a decision about this face off.

[Olivier]

Requesting a votecount

[Paperblade]

(4) Uncle Bob: Javert, Fluttershy, fffff, Resolute

(2) Mint Slice: England, Jugger

(1) England: ChanServ

(1) Jugger: Mint Slice

(1) ChanServ: Uncle Bob

(1) Voteless Scum: Ultimate Muscle

Edited July 5, 2013 by Paperblade

[All Might]

Oh god these guys are not fun to ISO, walls everywhere. I'll skip Jugger's because laziness and his responses have been ok. As for Mint Slice:

First off I completely derped and thought you voted Flutter, you voted f5 for defending Flutter. Still I don't like how that went down at all, you seem very aggressive for little reason then at the end of it all you're like "oh wait I'm dumb LOL". You're pushing hard for a lynch on f5 and I'm struggling to see good reasoning behind it, it looks like you were trying to score a mislynch and realised noone was buying it so hopped off and searched for a new target (Jugger). Which, come to think of it, is pretty much what you did with Chanserv. You even said this:

gj dude you're doing a good job convincing me that you're scum

Which sounds like you're pretty sure he's scummy, yet you seem to have dropped it in favour of Jugger. Just one thing to say about that:

town you'd kinda remember where your suspicions are whereas scum are trying to fake suspicions and hence might drop them occasionally (normally in contradiction), which is something i don't see enough people do

WIFOM "townies are all perfect and can remember every suspicion they had, scum can forget their suspicions"

That wasn't as much as I thought but I guess that's all one can get from a half assed ISO. Still want Chanserv to answer my queries. I just wanted to add to the WIFOM list that he said Mint is probably town because scum aren't as stubborn which I don't like. Sure, townies have been known to be stubborn and bicker in the past but I'm pretty sure scum have done it/can do it too.

Where is everyone?

[Estelle]

i am so tired

WIFOM "townies are all perfect and can remember every suspicion they had, scum can forget their suspicions"

this is true, however the main point is that it's making the suspicions look fabricated. reading between the lines and all that

i'll address other stuff when i'm not a zombie

[Estelle]

Which sounds like you're pretty sure he's scummy, yet you seem to have dropped it in favour of Jugger. Just one thing to say about that:

or in case you haven't noticed, i haven't got around to rereading completely and i have never stated that i dropped the case...

[Kamina]

Flutter- okay, I see why you thought that Mint might be scummy for trying to provoke me, but I guess knowing his player, it just doesn't seem that bad to me. And yeah, Orion was falsely accusing you of a misrep there, I'll admit, but the wording you used seem more like you were taking issue with people just accusing others of misrepping, since you said something similar about Mint earlier. Also, if Kumaneko had just posted saying he was super lazy and all, doesn't that make HIM more likely to be a lazy person rather than a scummy person, as Bob was suggesting about Orion and Darth?

I'm not about to meta an anonymous mafia unless I can help it (or SOMEONE decides to break character hard). My issue with the word "misrep" is that it's being thrown around like a really bad business buzzword, and it's getting on my nerves. I'd be much more convinced if there was an explanation of WHY it's a misrep without using the word misrep. I didn't feel that Orion/Darth were lazy - the latter kept hinting at research, which is not what I'd expect out of someone that's lazy, and the former's responses to everything implied that he was keeping up with the topic. Kumaneko outright stating laziness got my attention. Using laziness to excuse prior bad posts is not a good thing, in my opinion.

I don't agree with the neighbor target (I would've gone after someone less memorable), but disagreeing with what I'd hypothetically do isn't a scumtell.

##Unvote

If I had to place a vote down right now, it would be on Mint Slice for purely emotional reasons (namely, shitting up his case with emotional provocation, which I already said I didn't like, and the sheer number of posts, which makes finding things take longer than it should, which in turn makes my eyes and head really unhappy). I'll reread what I can when I calm down.

[Sham]

Ugh, so Bob's claim is likely legit since it's easily provable. Unless we're dealing with a Neighborizer SK he's probably not the source of the DV kill. Will back off for now.

##Unvote

##Vote: Jugger

The disconnect from him which I pointed out at the start of D2 still reflects horribly on him and I 100% agree that his Mint vote is opportunistic and bad. His reasons for dropping the Bob vote for it make no sense, because if Bob was his preferred target at the start of the day then being a Neighborizer doesn't actually make it impossible for Bob to just be scum who tried to neighborize the SK's target. All the Neighborizer claim does is mean Fluttershy probably didn't track the kill, not that Bob is town, so there's no reason to outright "leave Bob alone for the day".

I'm back to being pretty confident that Mint Slice isn't scum. Frantic town playing badly, maybe (has he even re-read the game since the start of today?), but his craziness today reads as town paranoia and I'm not sure where you can find scum intent in it either. Kind of think people are feeling inclined to vote him because he's annoying.

I really don't like Javert right now and he is my second choice for a lynch. Just way too unmemorable. It's hard to construct a concrete case on him because of how little he posts anything worthwhile.

A question about the second kill, though: what does everyone think about the possibility of multiple scumteams? I didn't actually think of it until this morning and it's sort of weird nobody brought it up yet, not even Mint Slice who had been going super crazy about the track result.

@Mods: Has Ultimate Muscle been prodded?

[Paperblade]

Yes

[Sham]

Anyway I'm going to change whatever earlier stance I had on England compared to Bob voting Kuroneko. England's post came only a bit after my stance on Kuroneko was posted, so I was content with agreeing with it.

Most of the day passed by without another word from Kuroneko to at least save face on his terrible posts, though, so by that point I was annoyed with how easily anyone could have made a case on him. Hell, I was pretty confident my "these posts are terrible because it jumps off one wagon just to make another vote that basically doesn't explain anything why x is scum" reasoning would be good enough for a vote, which is weak considering there's so many more people who have a lot more content to analyze and more scummy behavior.

Sure enough Bob came along and made that vote, so I attacked him for it. Bob didn't even move the vote until deadline, which I think was just coasting on the Kuroneko vote all day.

If by "most of the day" you mean "12 hours", yeah. Not convinced by this.

[Estelle]

Ugh, so Bob's claim is likely legit since it's easily provable. Unless we're dealing with a Neighborizer SK he's probably nA question about the second kill, though: what does everyone think about the possibility of multiple scumteams? I didn't actually think of it until this morning and it's sort of weird nobody brought it up yet, not even Mint Slice who had been going super crazy about the track result.

i thought about it, don't you worry; but for now i'm not really inclined to believe that it's a thing, unless bob flips scum in which case yeah it's defs a possibility

multimaf would make it 6/2/2 though which i think would be considered potential mylo or something. which leads another question: is mylo/lylo announced?

[Estelle]

i'm assuming 6/2/2 because one-man scumteams are sk's, not mafias. and 3/3 split multimafia would imply a 8/3/3 start which is also potential mylo

[Sham]

Also, just throwing this out there: I wish people would stop alluding to meta in an anonymous game. I have no idea who Jugger is so when somebody says he's posting a "meta-scumtell" it means jack shit to me.

[Estelle]

pretty sure that can refer to me

my statement when i said that was two different things; and maybe i wasn't clear in my late-night postspam. what i meant with that was that the statement read as a certain, and was a playertell, not a metatell. words r hurd

then it was that i thought it was scummy because of general tone, unrelated to the meta of the player. probably confusing i know but yeah