Masquerade Mafia - Universal Loss

[No Elimination]

RAGE! Stoopid Internet. Getting online might be difficult for me this phase, apologies :P

You guys post too many walls. :P Might take me some time to understand what's going on right now. Reading away!

[Sham]

The first post time seems a little strange for Shin, but I don't see how this person is using it as an excuse to lurk? I see one to two posts per time phase when this person is supposedly active. Javert seems more post-bursty, but this doesn't tell me if he's scum or not. The strongest thing on England that I have is his consistently echoey content, while the strongest case on Javert is his "few reads" this far into the game (source). Fuck it, we need discussion, and me voting for England won't generate what I want.

Maybe, but I think England also avoids saying too much while he's around, which makes the echoey content a lot worse. It's like he's intentionally giving the town nothing to work with. It's possible I'm just reading him weirdly because I see his posts through SHIN GOGGLES though.

I'd lynch either one at this point tbh, both are very frustrating to have around. Ultimate Muscle is also really lame for vanishing entirely, I keep forgetting he's even in the game.

Also I gave up on trying to sound like anybody else in anon games in general ages ago.

[Sham]

After pondering this a bit more I'm going to ##Unvote, ##Vote: Javert because you could make the exact same "intentionally giving town too little to work with" case about Javert's ONE SCUM READ PER PHASE. Get dead.

[Estelle]

(I keep wanting to say english instead of england. pls kill me)

okay, f5 did ask for some opinions on england, let's go because i'm bored

so england. the stuff I said here still applies; furthermore that vote on me was definitely an easy one to make while not actually reading my posts properly, which one could easily say "oh they're too spread apart and spammy and i don't want to read them", and can get away more with misrepping just through my post structure

also this post further cemented england being possibly opportunistic.

Mint Slice's jump to put his vote on ChanServ was fast, and I do wish he would have explained why his "later" posts seemed worse and if he thinks ChanServ is worse than other players right now. But I personally don't find either of them scummy at the moment from their posts, just too emotional. You both should calm down and have a cookie. :P

1) there was material to figure out vaguely what i was getting at, but yeah okay it wasn't implied. however that's not my point i want to bring up in particular.

2) you had the material to push on me, and instead he decided to fencesit due to the emotion. um. pretty sure you can read past the emotion, you managed to point out 2 flaws with my play, so why weren't they scummy? i'm not following the logic train here, particularly considering there were the starts of an actual opinion that could have been pursued further

You guys post too many walls. :P Might take me some time to understand what's going on right now. Reading away!

i just want to note that the tone here actually kinda rubs me the wrong way, because it's like "oh damn walls, time to make an excuse" kind of thing.

i'd possibly wagon him, i wouldn't be terribly opposed to it right now.

[Ochako Uraraka]

I'm back. Sorry it took so long.

Stop predicting what scum will and won't do, it's just going to backfire later. Flutter could be scum tracker who saw me visiting DV and is now capitalising on her luck by outing info she knew I'd admit to because I was town and managing to lynch a power role.

Making educated guesses on what scum would do isn't particularly scummy as long as you're coming out with other content and actual reads too. Somewhere else in the post you said this:

Lots of people seem to be asking "why would scum target DV?" Well a quick look to his role would suggest that he found scum and redirected their kill to himself. I think that that's much more likely than town having both a dayvig and a night vig and considering there's been no vig claim I'm thinking I am right in thinking that.

Hey look, it's predicting what the scum will do, and it's actionspec. Weren't you breathing down ChanServ's throat for this?

Don't know what to tell you. I had a change in opinion I guess over if a Kuroneko vote was good or not, I suppose. What I probably meant is that I liked the vote was on a scummy person. I thought England was scummy later anyway, but I didn't voice that I had a change in opinion that the vote itself was bad? That's the best I can give you for an answer, believe it or not.

If a vote is terrible, it doesn't matter if you perceive the target of the vote as scummy or not, it could be a really shitty bus attempt, or something along those lines.

I think I need to ISO myself because I don't remember exactly what I said earlier and it would probably be a good idea to do that before I get more attacks that I forgot an opinion I had and changed it later.

This sounds kind of dodgy to me, because of how self-conscious you seem to be in this post.

It's worth noting that if it is somehow 6:2:2, Fluttershy instantly jumping to the conclusion that her track result was the scum NK could be considered a scumslip.

Erm, how exactly does that work out? Enlighten me.

Also, for what it's worth, I think England isn't actually Shin, just somebody using RP as an excuse to lurk on purpose. Shin puts his emoticons before his punctuation :P.

...and thinking about it, that's scummy as hell.

##Unvote

##Vote: England

This is a pretty horrible case honestly. It's grapsy as hell and just leaps blindly with really weak justification. You also changed off to Javert (another inactive) after barely any time, and I don't think that England even addressed your issues (off the top of my head.)

I think lynching England will be a wasted lynch at this point. There's hardly any interactions there and I honestly don't think he's going to flip scum. Yeah, his posts are pretty weak, but he at least seems to be trying.

"Trying" doesn't make someone not mafia, scum put effort into appearing townie too. So answer me this Jugger: who isn't trying? You're basically handwaving the points against him just because he put a bit of effort in, from your point of view.

I'd lynch either one at this point tbh, both are very frustrating to have around. Ultimate Muscle is also really lame for vanishing entirely, I keep forgetting he's even in the game.

How come you're so happy to lynch either of them? Do you really think that both of them are inactive scum, or is it just because of your "frustration." Guess who else doesn't care which townies get lynched? The mafia.

Really not liking f5 right now, gonna look through his iso at some point in the near future. I'd still happily vote for Bob though, so my vote's staying here until I'm more sure on f5. There's no point changing it only to change it back again.

quotes toard the end look ugly but I'm lazy.

[Refakitty³]

Yeah, fffff has been sort of votehoppy recently. I'm not actually even sure if the England vote was serious, because of the incredibly weak reason given during the switch and his attitude immediately afterwards.

Reading through Javert's defence against UM's vote early on, it just gives me a bad feeling due to how much more blown-up it is in comparison to UM's argument. UM's argument is like 2-3 lines, and Javert writes a wall in defence. It just feels kind of weird.

With, Bob, the more I think about it, the more I really dislike his comment on how Orion and Darth were just lazy, while Kumaneko was actually scummy. Kumaneko literally had a post saying "I am lazy and uninterested", while "Darth was talking about doing research and stuff and trying to widen his base of information. I really don't understand how the former is less lazy than the latter. It really looks like an attempt to distance himself from the main wagons of the day while still pushing them forward with "but I still wouldn't really care if they were lynched".

As for England... he hasn't really said or done anything to convince me that this isn't a good vote.

[Cú Chulainn]

It's not really fair to compare my defense length to UM's attack length. The reason for that is that UM can say "his post was exaggerating things" and be attacking my whole post and every point in it. To defend against that, I need to go and explain why every point isn't exaggerating things or else he'll probably just end up attacking the points I didn't defend. So I don't really get how this is relevant to anything.

As for my inactivity, I know. Trust me, I know, and I hate it. But, work has been really draining lately and every time I come home and try and focus on mafia, I continue to be unable to get any solid thoughts. I'm going to hopefully be rereading through later today. I will say one thing that's kinda pinged my radar though before I leave for a bit. And that's f5's attacks on me. He doesn't talk about the actual content of my posts ever. He is literally attacking the fact that I haven't had a lot of reads in this game. And it's the way he's doing it that's pinging me the most. At first, he doesn't even say if I'm scummy or not really, just that I deserve to be killed for inactivity. He then rapidly changes his mind and is like "OMG HE'S REFUSING TO GIVE US ANYTHING TO WORK WITH DIE DIE DIE" and doesn't really build a case beyond that. I get that I'm inactive. But I'm not even the most inactive. But, besides that, I have given you things to work with, I just haven't talked about my town reads because that's dumb and there are plenty of people I'm neutral on so I wasn't mentioning them until I had a chance to ISO them and look further in depth at them.

Oh, and someone, I forget who, called my asking for a vig to claim themselves stupid or suspicious or something like that. Why is it? Tell me, please. Here's the thing. We've already had a day vig claim. Now, if someone had stepped forward and claimed one of the two NKs, we could have been controlling their kills in the future. Which would have worked splendidly for town. But, since no one stepped forward, we have to assume that it's either a SK or multimafia. Unlikely that it's multimafia since we'd be in potential lylo right now I think, but that's not the point. The point is, I very specifically asked that because it would give the town vital information or a kill that we could have controlled.

[Kamina]

That post explains the inactivity, but all I get is fffff looks somewhat suspicious? That's not much to work with. I'll leave my vote here until you're able to produce something more concrete.

[Sham]

Yes, I think both Javert and England are scum, and they're the best lynch targets right now because we do not want scummy lurkers around in LYLO. Attacking my England vote switch for being "weak" is ignorant because I've also been pursuing him for various reasons the entire game and this hasn't changed at all. I've also outright considered Javert scummy since the start of the day so I'm not sure what he's getting at.

[Cú Chulainn]

Right, sorry. You said I was scummy at first, but then switched to just saying that I should be killed asap because I'm inactive. But even when you were outright saying that I was scummy, your reasons for finding me scummy aren't that my stuff has been scummy, just that I've been inactive. Inactivity is not a scum tell. Look at Touhou. Rein had literally four posts all game and was town. But then Manix and BBM who both had over 300 posts were scum. Saying that someone who's inactive is scum isn't good enough. Is Ultimate Muscle scummy? He hasn't posted all day. Why is he so much better than me? Sure, he proved he had a vig shot yesterday, but he's still inactive. Give me reasons why I'm scummy other than inactivity and maybe I'll start seriously considering your vote a threat. Until then, it means nothing to me because it's has nothing that shows I'm scummy backing it up.

[No Elimination]

Maybe, but I think England also avoids saying too much while he's around, which makes the echoey content a lot worse. It's like he's intentionally giving the town nothing to work with. It's possible I'm just reading him weirdly because I see his posts through SHIN GOGGLES though.

I'd lynch either one at this point tbh, both are very frustrating to have around. Ultimate Muscle is also really lame for vanishing entirely, I keep forgetting he's even in the game.

Don't be mean, fffff, I'm not being a flake on purpose :P. This game started at an inconvenient time for me, and playing catch-up has been hard! I totally can't help it if people have already stated what I wanted to say, or if I'm not seeing the same things you guys are :P.

so england. the stuff I said here still applies; furthermore that vote on me was definitely an easy one to make while not actually reading my posts properly, which one could easily say "oh they're too spread apart and spammy and i don't want to read them", and can get away more with misrepping just through my post structure

also this post further cemented england being possibly opportunistic.

1) there was material to figure out vaguely what i was getting at, but yeah okay it wasn't implied. however that's not my point i want to bring up in particular.

2) you had the material to push on me, and instead he decided to fencesit due to the emotion. um. pretty sure you can read past the emotion, you managed to point out 2 flaws with my play, so why weren't they scummy? i'm not following the logic train here, particularly considering there were the starts of an actual opinion that could have been pursued further

i just want to note that the tone here actually kinda rubs me the wrong way, because it's like "oh damn walls, time to make an excuse" kind of thing.

i'd possibly wagon him, i wouldn't be terribly opposed to it right now.

Who are you to say that my vote on you was easy, Mint Slice? Of course you would think that because it's on you :P. I did read your posts where you explained stuff, but what if I don't wanna blindly believe you? What if I'm not convinced that your actions had town intent? You keep screaming about "misrep" and "opportunistic/easy" votes, but you're not exactly explaining why you believe I am doing so! Maybe you think my statement about you instantly disbelieving Fluttershy was "misrep," but that's what it seemed like to me! You were quick to start throwing ideas around when you could've merely asked her to explain herself or wait for Uncle Bob to explain himself.

Uh, the reason I "fence-sat" over emotion is because I can't read through emotion :P. I thought you were just having a bad day so I wanted to see if your play improved any when you weren't playing while emotional. Your assumption is false :P.

You appear to see scum intent everywhere, Mint Slice :P. Being intimidated by too many walls isn't scummy in itself. They do make catching up harder to do and not everyone can read through them with a clear understanding, you know! You seem too fickle and too quick to declare scum intent, which makes me think you're just trying to shift the blame to whoever you can push it on.

[Sham]

Okay seriously why does everybody in this game think that if you have a reason to find somebody scummy, then switch to them later in the day without repeating it, it never happened? Fuck.

Also, this isn't a town reaction to being pressed for having weak content. Instead of trying to actually re-read and scumhunt you're flailing around writing excuses and saying "NO SHUT UP IT'S NOT VALID FOR YOU TO SUSPECT ME" when all of this would be better addressed by reading the damn game and telling us what you think about people. Even "I think this guy is town because X and X" is more convincing than "I have a bunch of townreads which I don't want to talk about"; at least the former doesn't look like you're worried people will jump on you for posting townreads if you share your opinions. For one, what do you think about England?

At this point, Ultimate Muscle is an issue for the mods to deal with, not us.

@England cut: Do you have anything to say about people on than Mint Slice while you're here? What about Bob and Javert and so on?

[Sham]

This game is frustrating as hell right now. I don't understand how it's considered acceptable to keep players around when getting content from them is like pulling teeth, which shouldn't be an issue with other townies.

Remember, people like Rein are the exception, not the rule, and people get on Rein's case a lot because when he lurks it looks scummy. Just because one player is a bad person who plays like scum doesn't mean that it's suddenly town play.

I also think that you guys are mixing up "lurking" and "being inactive". Inactivity is like what Ultimate Muscle is doing, which basically crosses into modkill territory and is probably not relevant to alignment. Scummy lurking is rarely posting, and when you are around, posting minimum content just to get by. I didn't make too many content posts D1, but when I did, they were worthwhile and addressed the issues at hand. People like England and Javert are not doing this, and I'm going to say England looks better than Javert now because he's making better use of his time while he's around, even if his posts are rather bleak.

Giving town little to work with is scummy. I have no idea how anybody can deny this.

[No Elimination]

I have no problems with Javert. There's nothing she's done that makes me think she's scum, although I do wonder if there is anyone else besides Uncle Bob she finds scummy or would be okay lynching :P.

About Uncle Bob, I'll get to him as soon as I get back. I have to run for a moment!

[Sham]

Finally, since Javert argued I'm not picking apart his posts enough, here is A Breakdown On Why Javert's Posts Are Scummy And Terrible:

#104 - There is no reason to bring up a thoughts quicktopic here. None. It's a defensive mechanism that implies Javert is a townie but has no real game relevance; essentially something scum would do to fake seeming like town with a thought process. What's worse is that Javert never expanded on the two bad jumps he pointed out. If you're writing notes, shouldn't you be referring to them? The post is literally just a passive-aggressive threat, and if people are blaming Jugger for doing this recently then Javert is ten times as bad.

#149 - It's the middle of the day and DV, Orion and Bob are all viable wagons. This post addresses none of that and gives town nothing to work with aside from a huge defense of Javert's ED1 actions, which have barely been updated for the current situation. I find it impossible to believe that Javert had no opinion on the wagons whatsoever, and if Javert was townreading any of them, then somebody being wagoned is really the most important time to talk about a townread. The result is that Javert appears to care about his own standing more than the day's progression and is totally unaware of anything unrelated to his ED1 Orion vote. This is not a town effort at all.

#294 - Javert has claimed that he has mostly town reads, but ChanServ / MintSlice evidently wouldn't fall into this if he thinks they are scumbuddies on gut. Why would he not bother to look into his gut read on them beyond this? It's essentially another non-effort The Muscle suspicion could have been elaborated on since Scum Dayvig isn't unheard of - at the very least, it'd give the player something to react to and elaborate on even if he was town.

#324 - "Wow this whole claim situation sure is weird and controversial, but I'm going to avoid giving any real opinion on it for now and disappear. Bye!" England is guilty of the same thing btw.

This seems like a pretty short dissection, but really, Javert rarely posts and when he does he gives little to work with, which is ideal for scum trying to avoid getting caught. "You can't attack my CONTENT" is pretty much the perfect defense for somebody doing this on purpose, too, which is why I take it with a grain of salt. There's also his recent stuff and I explained why I don't think he's reacting to being pressed for low content like a townie already.

tl;dr lynch Javert he is the scums.

If it feels like I'm repeating a case I brought up ages ago, that's because I am, since apparently people think that my points randomly vanished because I didn't repeat them while voting Javert.

[Sham]

Also, if you disagree that Javert and England are scummy, then at least explain why the collective points I've brought up against them aren't valid instead of handwaving it.

[Olivier]

Enemy system purge initiated...

Yes, I think both Javert and England are scum, and they're the best lynch targets right now because we do not want scummy lurkers around in LYLO. Attacking my England vote switch for being "weak" is ignorant because I've also been pursuing him for various reasons the entire game and this hasn't changed at all. I've also outright considered Javert scummy since the start of the day so I'm not sure what he's getting at.

This is pretty bad and easy setup for a mislynch, in my opinion. They aren't lurking, they just post less. If they simply weren't posting and not making contributive posts then I would be inclined to agree.

##Unvote

##Terminate Program: fffff

[Sham]

They aren't lurking, they just post less. If they simply weren't posting and not making contributive posts then I would be inclined to agree.

Do you even fucking read what you post?

Then again, you're probably the third scum.

[Olivier]

Honestly my gut is screaming at me right now to lynch one of f5 or Mint, they just feel like they're trying to drive a mislynch whenever I see one of their posts. I suppose it's really awful reasoning on my part for that alone, but f5 has been jumping votes pretty much all day, and I've said my 2 cents on Mint in posts before.

Can we just lynch these scum already?

[Sham]

Read Javert's ISO and tell me he's contributing anything worthwhile to the game. You can't, because he isn't.

[Olivier]

Do you even fucking read what you post?

Then again, you're probably the third scum.

It's retaliatory and worthless posts like these that just make me want to lynch you harder, you know.

[Olivier]

Same goes for Mint on the above point.

[Sham]

I don't know what to tell you. If you're town then you're intentionally ignoring the facts so that you can read me as scum and this is already a lost battle.

[Sham]

Fuck whoever killed SupremeRuler N1, he would totally agree with me on all of this if he were alive. (*´Д`) =з

[Kamina]

It's retaliatory and worthless posts like these that just make me want to lynch you harder, you know.

The first part isn't worthless, it's a valid concern. Can you explain your sentiments better? The sense I'm getting from fffff is frustration over inactivity and is acting out accordingly, and I don't think it should warrant a vote.

Javert: What about my post?