H5 Tier list topic

[Rodykitty]

I wouldn't deny it for Marth and Julian tough. If we consider the thieving a positive, it could put Marth over Horace, though I guess Roger is a stump.

It'll never get Marth anywhere because most people argue that Marth doesn't want to open chests, and this is exactly where I say that it's hard to quantify. Is opening a few chests actually better than Horace's entire utility? How do you figure out which is better? Thief utility is small, so it would have to be a tie breaker at best, which isn't going to be the case here because Marth and Horace are very different units.

It can potentially turn into a complex mess.

Edited November 13, 2009 by FE3 Player

[CATS]

And to answer your question, it isn't considered small because it's hard to quantify vs. other characters, it's considered small because it really is small.

Which goes right back to my original point:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that there are 52 chests in this game and only 2 Master Keys with 5 uses each. Thus, you would need to use Marth or a thief to open the other 42 chests. I don't think I need to explain that a significant portion of those chests are not in a convenient location for Marth to just casually pick them up while he's going towards the throne. Indeed, even if they weren't out of the way, every turn Marth stops to open a chest is a turn on which he could've instead been moving to the throne.

So, why is thief utility considered worthless? Unless either the items in all those chests, or the extra turns it takes Marth to go get them are considered insignificant, and I really don't see how either one of those could be called insignificant.

You're countering this by saying "It's insignificant."

At worst, the following must be true about thief utility:

Thief utility directly results in the chapter ending faster because Marth doesn't have to spend turns opening chests and can reach the throne sooner.

So you're saying that this is entirely insignificant, even though this does the exact same thing as combat utility and killing enemies faster does (allows chapters to be completed in fewer turns)?

Is opening a few chests actually better than Horace's entire utility?

A few chests? It's 42 chests that can only be opened by Marth or a thief, period (again correct me if I'm wrong about this, maybe I'm missing something). Since Rickard is apparently considered to be completely non-viable, that means it falls to Marth and Julian to pick up the slack. You can divide the chests evenly between them and each one still opens 21 chests for you. You consider that to be only "a few?"

Edited November 13, 2009 by CATS

[Rodykitty]

Small =/= insignificant.

Nevermind that the chests are spread throughout the game, so the actual action of opening said chests happen on a couple of turns on certain chapters, so it's only a few at a time.

We also forget that killing enemies or weakening enemies also increases efficiency, if not moreso than Thief utility since enemies cannot be ignored and block units' way in getting to the throne.

I'll go ahead and put Rickard > Thomas.

Edited November 13, 2009 by FE3 Player

[CATS]

Nevermind that the chests are spread throughout the game, so the actual action of opening said chests happen on a couple of turns on certain chapters, so it's only a few at a time.

There's 42 of them. The game has 6 chapters which include 5 or more chests. Ch 19 has 9 chests. Without a Thief, your turncount for Ch 19 would go up by 9 turns + however many turns it took for Marth to go all around the map getting to those chests and then back to the throne. Either that, or you'd simply miss out on some of those items, which include:

Master Seal

Speedwings

Seraph Robe

Spirit Dust

XL Bullion

The Starsphere

"so use your master keys on this chapter"

An excellent point, and then you can only use your Master Keys for one or two of the other 5 chapters that include 5 or more chests.

We also forget that killing enemies or weakening enemies also increases efficiency, if not moreso than Thief utility since enemies cannot be ignored and block units' way in getting to the throne.

Yes, ofcourse killing enemies increases efficiency. I don't believe that I claimed otherwise. What exactly is your point?

Edited November 13, 2009 by CATS

[Rodykitty]

There's 42 of them. The game has 6 chapters which include 5 or more chests. Ch 19 has 9 chests.

The total number doesn't matter much since they're spread out throughout the game, and we have to consider chapters that don't have chests. There's also the fact that some Thieves open chests for you, so killing them nets you the item, which is even more credit to the combat units.

But once again, small =/= insignificant. Thieves are still convenient, but not as ground breaking as to change entire tier positions unless they're above absolute fail.

Yes, ofcourse killing enemies increases efficiency. I don't believe that I claimed otherwise. What exactly is your point?

My point is that I don't feel that Thief utility is significant enough to outweigh this.

[Colonel M]

Hm, oh another point to bring: there are likely Thieves on a chapter so they will likely pillage an item or two. Best example is the Starsphere.

[CATS]

The total number doesn't matter much since they're spread out throughout the game, and we have to consider chapters that don't have chests. There's also the fact that some Thieves open chests for you, so killing them nets you the item, which is even more credit to the combat units.

Yeah, that will happen sometimes. It's not going to account for even half of the total number, though.

What does the fact that they're spread out have to do with anything? Every turn Marth spends opening a chest is slowing him down. If there's 1 chest per chapter over 10 chapters, so you lose 1 turn per chap opening them, or 10 chests in one chapter so that you lose 10 turns for that one chapter; I don't see what the difference is. The effect is the same both ways. Having someone to open those chests decreases overall turncount, period.

My point is that I don't feel that Thief utility is significant enough to outweigh this.

Oh, I certainly agree that combat in general is more important than thieving, just because enemies are more common than chests. Thus why I would never attempt to argue that Julian belongs in the same position as units like Cain and Abel. However, the worth of combat is dependent on stats, and the worth of thieving is not.

Your thieves are, at worst, utility units, just like Wendell, Jeigan and Lena, and their utility is not insignificant (nor would I call it "small"), as it directly shaves turns off your turncount in the chapters where it applies. They're obviously contributing more towards efficiency than units who are utter failures in general and unable to provide any sort of unique or useful utility.

I feel that the main example of thief utility being misrepresented here is indeed Rickard, and I think you're failing to see that he does in fact possess significant utility value. He's perfectly capable of opening chests without ever getting attacked; unlike healers he doesn't even have to be near the fighters to do his job. I don't think that his thief utility can be ignored because his combat is poor (as seems to be the argument against him), as the two are entirely unrelated.

Edited November 13, 2009 by CATS

[Rodykitty]

Yeah, that will happen sometimes. It's not going to account for even half of the total number, though.

Total number doesn't matter as much as HOW we're getting the chests if we're to weigh Thief utility. At this rate, combat units have taken up about half a Thief's worth already (keys unlock doors).

What does the fact that they're spread out have to do with anything?

It makes them much less useful in-between chest areas.

Your thieves are, at worst, utility units, just like Wendell, Jeigan and Lena, and their utility is not insignificant (nor would I call it "small"), as it directly shaves turns off your turncount in the chapters where it applies.

That's because they're not thieves, they have a bigger impact on efficiency than Thieves do.

[CATS]

Total number doesn't matter as much as HOW we're getting the chests if we're to weigh Thief utility. At this rate, combat units have taken up about half a Thief's worth already (keys unlock doors).

How we're getting the chests? What are you talking about? Master Keys can open 10 of them. Enemy thieves will nab an unspecified number, once again, I'd estimate this to be less than half of the remaining total (would be helpful if someone could shed some more light on exactly how often this occurs), and the rest you must open with Marth or a thief, and a thief is preferred.

The bottom line is that "Thief" is one of the bona fide ways that we're getting the chests.

It makes them much less useful in-between chest areas.

In-between chest areas? I assume you're talking about combat, which I'm not. Once again, opening chests and attacking enemies are entirely separate forms of utility, and I'm discussing the worth of the former, not the latter.

As for chests being spread out across the map, the more spread out they are, the more turns it will take to get them, and thus the more turns you can shave off by having a thief to help.

That's because they're not thieves, they have a bigger impact on efficiency than Thieves do.

Perhaps, but that's aside from my point. My point is that the utility that Thieves possess is indeed significant and considerable, not that it's necessarily better than what someone like Jeigan has.

[Rodykitty]

Even though Thieves are still required to open the rest of the chests, that doesn't make their utility necessarily better than a unit that is doing more for more of the game.

In-between chest areas? I assume you're talking about combat, which I'm not.

I'm talking about portions of the game where they don't have access to chests. Their only other non-combat utility are easily replaced by door keys (which AREN'T in limited supply unlike Master Keys).

Perhaps, but that's aside from my point. My point is that the utility that Thieves possess is indeed significant and considerable

It's considerable, but it's not a large enough utility to outweigh what a lot of characters are doing.

[CATS]

It's considerable, but it's not a large enough utility to outweigh what a lot of characters are doing.

Indeed; if we can agree that Thief utility all on its own, aside from combat, is considerable, then I think Rickard rising is perfectly justified. Ofcourse there's still alot of units more valuable, but I do think he deserves better than 6th worst unit in the game. I don't see what units like Astram or Midia are doing which is of considerable worth.

Likewise, about Julian's position, if his positioning is based almost solely on combat ability (as seems to be the general opinion), then I'd definitely argue him rising. He's an absolutely unique unit in that he can open chests freely while also providing acceptable combat to use during the rest of the chapter, without being constrained by the need to seize like Marth is.

[Rodykitty]

I'm not going to rise units just because they have Thief utility. It simply isn't a significant enough value on its own. This includes Julian.

Midia and Astoria are free units with workable stats. Midia can also match utility value by becoming a healer. Thomas requires a master seal and EXP just to become a pre-promote, so I think Rickard going above Thomas is justified in this case.

Edited November 13, 2009 by FE3 Player

[CATS]

So you're back to saying that Thief utility is so insignificant as to have no effect whatsoever on a unit's positioning? In that case I'm back to my original point:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that there are 52 chests in this game and only 2 Master Keys with 5 uses each. Thus, you would need to use Marth or a thief to open the other 42 chests. I don't think I need to explain that a significant portion of those chests are not in a convenient location for Marth to just casually pick them up while he's going towards the throne. Indeed, even if they weren't out of the way, every turn Marth stops to open a chest is a turn on which he could've instead been moving to the throne.

So, why is thief utility considered worthless? Unless either the items in all those chests, or the extra turns it takes Marth to go get them are considered insignificant, and I really don't see how either one of those could be called insignificant.

You're countering this by saying "It's insignificant."

At worst, the following must be true about thief utility:

Thief utility directly results in the chapter ending faster because Marth doesn't have to spend turns opening chests and can reach the throne sooner.

Thief utility reduces your turncount, period.

Edited November 13, 2009 by CATS

[Rodykitty]

It doesn't actually reduce turn count if you're not using Marth to open chests in the first place. It only prevents Marth from opening chests.

And if you want to argue Rickard > Astoria, I can listen, but only with a very solid argument and not "This unit's Thief utility is more than this other unit will ever do".

[CATS]

It doesn't actually reduce turn count if you're not using Marth to open chests in the first place. It only prevents Marth from opening chests.

If you're not using Marth to open chests in the first place, then deploying a thief is the difference between getting the items in those chests and not getting them. I shouldn't need to explain how much the items in all those chests are worth; bullions, stat boosters, master seals, warp staves, etc.

And if you want to argue Rickard > Astoria, I can listen, but only with a very solid argument and not "This unit's Thief utility is more than this other unit will ever do".

Well, before such an argument can be attempted, we have to agree that Thief utility is significant to the point where it can affect a unit's positioning.

[Rodykitty]

Well, before such an argument can be attempted, we have to agree that Thief utility is significant to the point where it can affect a unit's positioning.

Most of the time, it won't be significant enough.

Above Astoria though, quite possibly. Above Midia? Doubt it. Depends on how well they're taking out flyers and other things. Midia has the benefit of building rank Horse Slayer for Paladins as well and has Healing for a utility role if needed.

Edited November 13, 2009 by FE3 Player

[CATS]

Who's Astoria? Since Rickard is apparently already directly adjacent to Midia.

[Dat Nick]

In chapter 6 pretty much everything is going to get stolen and Warp is the only way to stop it. Right off the bat that's five Chests Rickard isn't helping us get. He's got 47 left.

In C9, one Thief will go for the Bullion and Goddess Icon and another will go for the Wyrmslayer. Wyrmslayer is pretty important but you probably have to warp to get to it anyway, look at how far away it is. http://fireemblemwod.net/fe11/guia/capitulo09.htm

In C12 the only chest out of our way is the boots. The boots aren't even that valuable to begin with on units that aren't Jake/Beck. Not even Marth really cares about them since he uses his full mov so seldom, so if we must miss them it's not a sin.

Thieves are also after the Silver Card and the M Bullion in 14. Block it with somebody and move on, chapter's almost over by the time you get there anyway.

Several examples where Thief utility isn't that useful.

[Rodykitty]

Wyrmslayer is pretty important but you probably have to warp to get to it anyway

Dragon Knight Jeigan was able to reach the Thief without me trying (he was tagging along while Marth was going after the House), so him or Sheeda can go after the Thief without using a Warp.

[_____]

I'll go ahead and put Rickard > Thomas.

You are a dick.

[grandjackal]

The catch 22 of this is that you need Julian to recruit Rickard. So, Rickard with whatever chests he can get his hands on not immediately gimped out by Marth, someone with keys, or Julian, OR enemy thieves would go to Rickard. 1 thief is usually good enough if you're considering all this. At best, we are giving Rickard credit for a single chest or door, if at all. However, as said, 1 thief alone is usually good enough, and you need Julian, a thief, to recruit Rickard in the first place. So basically there is only one reason to recruit Rickard, if Julian died. YET, you need Julian to recruit Rickard. So unless you want to include gimping gaidens to the list of Rickard's problems, you have to kill a clearly better unit for the job, Julian, to give Rickard any reason to exist. Anyone see the problem here?

Also, it was brought up earlier about Linde's utility. Well, no one else coud possibly use Aura by the time she comes up (do explain how Shiida/Lena got from E-B in the course of chapter 4-11, when Gordon needs the course of 1-9 to go from D-B). Linde has a base might of 20 with it, targetting resistance. Shiida at level 14 at that time has the speed to double, and likely Shiver, so she would be doing 13+1x2 damage to whatever she doubled (this is if we didn't use her at all early on and started using her chapter 4 as a mage to get the most out of it). Due to being weighed down by 3, she would go from 17 speed to 14, so with that she can't double things like mercs, horsemen, promoted enemies. Even basic fire weighing her down by 1, 16 speed won't necessarily double mercs at that time, nor horsemen or promotes (even random paladins with their 12 speed, the few that dot around at that time). To them, she would at best do 11 damage. So with Fire on these things, she would do 12-6 damage. On these things, Linde is doing 20-14 damage. So while Shiida does 8 more damage to the things she can double that Linde can't, Linde is doing 8 more damage to the things Shiida can't double, which tend to be higher threat units like promotes and speedy mercs.

Shiida does immediately outclass her once she hits B rank, but it's hard to think 20 magic mt is not utility of some form.

[_____]

The catch 22 of this is that you need Julian to recruit Rickard. So, Rickard with whatever chests he can get his hands on not immediately gimped out by Marth, someone with keys, or Julian, OR enemy thieves would go to Rickard. 1 thief is usually good enough if you're considering all this. At best, we are giving Rickard credit for a single chest or door, if at all. However, as said, 1 thief alone is usually good enough, and you need Julian, a thief, to recruit Rickard in the first place. So basically there is only one reason to recruit Rickard, if Julian died. YET, you need Julian to recruit Rickard. So unless you want to include gimping gaidens to the list of Rickard's problems, you have to kill a clearly better unit for the job, Julian, to give Rickard any reason to exist. Anyone see the problem here?

Marth can recruit Rickard.

Also, this "gimping gaidens" argument goes for Lena and Bantu as well, with Chiki hurt by extension. If you use this against Rickard, you need to penalize all of them, now.

Edited November 13, 2009 by Ninji

[Rodykitty]

Also, this "gimping gaidens" argument goes for Lena and Bantu as well, with Chiki hurt by extension. If you use this against Rickard, you need to penalize all of them, now.

[Dat Nick]

Julian only needs to be fielded for one chapter to recruit Rickard anyway. And saying we could use Julian to recruit further chests is like saying we could have used Vyland instead of Roshe.

[_____]

Also, this "gimping gaidens" argument goes for Lena and Bantu as well, with Chiki hurt by extension. If you use this against Rickard, you need to penalize all of them, now.

Wow, bro, that's such a great response, why didn't I think of that? This just shows how intellectually superior you are to me.

On a side note, you're still a fucking dick.