Masquerade Mafia - Universal Loss

[Sham]

It's worth noting that if it is somehow 6:2:2, Fluttershy instantly jumping to the conclusion that her track result was the scum NK could be considered a scumslip.

[Olivier]

I'm back to being pretty confident that Mint Slice isn't scum. Frantic town playing badly, maybe (has he even re-read the game since the start of today?), but his craziness today reads as town paranoia and I'm not sure where you can find scum intent in it either. Kind of think people are feeling inclined to vote him because he's annoying.

I love it when players hand wave suspicious behavior as townies being townie, it makes them so much less believable.

[Paperblade]

Town can still win on a mislynch today, however likely that may be.

[Sham]

How is Mint Slice's behavior suspicious, at all? I don't like the argument that he's seeing what sticks, because you can apply that to anybody who's actively searching for scum intent in recent posts and I don't see what makes Mint Slice's version of it particularly terrible.

[Estelle]

quiz time;

I love it when players hand wave suspicious behavior as townies being townie, it makes them so much less believable.

how passive-aggressive is this statement on a scale of 1 to scum

or in other words; wow nice veiled threat there

[Estelle]

and this isn't without precedent either i'm pretty sure, i think i covered it in my wall somewhere

[Sham]

Re-reading SupremeRuler's last post before his death makes me want to switch to England.

Jugger is passive-aggressive with a shaky history but he actually bothers to be memorable and is easy to imagine being town scumhunting and looking suspicious. England is another softspoken lurker with common opinions like Javert and Kumaneko and Orion and uuuugh I would much rather have Jugger around in LYLO than him. I'd go so far as to say England has the worse Mint Slice vote because it's the same "here's my socially acceptable but not very memorable vote and nothing else, time to disappear with no more content because teehee timezones" shit he's been doing the entire game and the wait-and-see approach to the Bob wagon is bad because he didn't say what he actually thought of it. It should have been possible to have opinions before Fluttershy and Uncle Bob expanded, so as is he was just sidestepping around talking about a POTENTIAL GUILTY REPORT. Ugh.

Not gonna cover the actual logic behind his Mint Slice vote since ChanServ did a fine job of that already.

And Javert is still frustratingly under-the-radar too but I have an easier time seeing England getting lynched today.

Mint Slice, Jugger, thoughts?

[Olivier]

How can you two both suddenly be defending eachother when you were at each others throats earlier in the day?

I don't think you can use timezones to prove that someone is a scum lurker, especially if the player is Blitz and has limited internet access anyway, which I suspect is one of England or Bob, to be honest.

[Sham]

Nobody in this game has bad enough grammar to be Blitz.

I didn't think Mint Slice's ED2 was scummy, just really dumb.

The problem with England isn't how rarely he posts, it's how little he does when he does post. The post where he voted Mint Slice outright seemed like he was avoiding touching on anything else, particularly the Bob wagon itself.

[Estelle]

i'm defending f5? oh god my sides

okay serious time. exactly quote where i'm defending f5 in my latest string of posts and i'll relent; but i'll give you warning that i checked them myself.

[Estelle]

also if it's this post then it's not a defense because it has nothing to do with the player being attacked, just the method of attacking.

[Estelle]

also i'm pretty sure i did relent on f5 from my earlier tunnely thing so even if it was a defense, it still has at least some precedent

[Olivier]

So you relented tunneling on f5 to tunnel on me?

[Sham]

Also, for what it's worth, I think England isn't actually Shin, just somebody using RP as an excuse to lurk on purpose. Shin puts his emoticons before his punctuation :P.

[Sham]

...and thinking about it, that's scummy as hell.

##Unvote

##Vote: England

[Estelle]

So you relented tunneling on f5 to tunnel on me?

and that's all you have to say? i see

i just see that you still struggle under pressure and all you're trying to do is undermine my credibility with weak statements like these

[Olivier]

That's a pretty incredulous statement. What do you have to say about my huge retort wall, since all we can seem to do with eachother is weak, pointless jabs?

[Sham]

Guys stop arguing and vote England with me, he's mafia.

[Olivier]

I think lynching England will be a wasted lynch at this point. There's hardly any interactions there and I honestly don't think he's going to flip scum. Yeah, his posts are pretty weak, but he at least seems to be trying.

[Sham]

"X would be a wasted lynch" is an excuse to lynch people who are actively scumhunting and leave scummy lurkers alive until LYLO so they can fuck things up. England and Javert need to be firebombing ASAP if they don't step it up.

[Sham]

By "firebombing" I mean "firebombed".

Interactions will make themselves if people try to wagon England, btw.

[Olivier]

How are you so sure of that?

[Sham]

If he becomes a popular lynch wagon, then people are forced to talk about him, and if they ignore the wagon entirely then that can also be interpreted in many different ways. This is basic mafia theory here.

As an example, if England was lynched right now and flipped, both of our recent posts about him could be read associatively.

[Refakitty³]

Interesting how? Do you still think CS is scummy, and if not, what changed your opinion of him? Do you agree with anything I said?

Yes it is but I can only talk to the person I targetted for one day.

Undermining a PR is bad because it means town might question true results. You immediately jumped to the conclusion that Flutter was faking her report without even hearing what I had to say. It's not about believing every claim it's about not calling people out when you don't know the whole story. Imagine if people were convinced by you and just wagoned and hammered. The tracker has then just been lynched before I even commented and revealed that yes, Flutter probably IS the tracker as she got my target correct. Maybe it's not scummy, but it's definitely anti-town.

Yes I don't see why we can't have both.

Fair but what do you think of my response to Javert? Is it satisfying, am I missing something? I can kinda see what Mint meant by calling you over defensive, you didn't push on me at all and instead went to defend yourself. I can kinda see that in your original post too as you kinda just latch on to what Javert said to justify your suspicion of me. You said you had nothing to add but I made a large opinion post when I switched my vote and yet you barely commented on it (you called my switch of opinion "iffy" but that's it) and I was supposed to be your 3rd highest scumread so you should really be paying attention and thinking about what I'm saying more. Unsure is being over defensive is scummy though as Orion was being over defensive in the sense that a lot of his posts were just responses to other people's criticisms. You're definitely different from Orion though as you're not being over defensive from laziness.

This is completely untrue. You make it seem as if my entire reason for finding you suspicious is based on what Javert said. Yeah, I ran with it a little bit, but I had stuff from D1 that I just set aside then because I didn't think you were as bad as Orion or Darth. Also, not pushing you and defending myself isn't the same thing as overdefensiveness. Overdefensiveness is overreacting to a relatively small argument. What Mint accused me of doing is completely different from what you're saying I'm doing. As for me not commenting on it a lot, even if I'm scumreading someone, that doesn't mean I immediately have stuff to analyze about every post of their's.

Also I fail to see what is scummy about going "Darth looks kinda lazy but Kuma is actually scummy" then going "Well Kuma clearly is never going to answer these criticisms and I reread Darth and I think he could be scum after all". As for cherry-picking, I found something I didn't like about you so I voted it. My two biggest scum reads were dayvigged and Nk'd so it doesn't take a lot.

Except in that exact same post you waffled on Darth. You were like "Darth feels like he's just lazy, as opposed to Kuma who's scummy, but if he gets lynched, that's still okay". And then you "reread" later and decided that he could be scum after all? Honestly it's too much back-and-forth.

It's scummy because it's telling us what the scum will and won't do, which can throw town off of the actual scum trail.

There's a difference between scumspec and arguing WIFOM.

Handwaving criticisms is bad but apparently because scum knows it's bad they wouldn't do it.

This is a complete misrep of why I thought Jugger was town. Tell me something. If there's a wagon, and people say that the wagon is fast and sheepy, and kind of suspicious, are you, as mafia, going to do every single thing that people found bad about the wagon and tie yourself to it in that way? Whereas if you're town, if you find what the wagonee did was scummy, you'd be more likely to vote for them, not caring if people thought it was weird.

Because dumb scum do not exist.

So do dumb town. If you assume that players are going to be so incompetent, then you can attribute like every scummy thing to dumb town.

I agreed that Orion was town, but scum could very well have goons which would obviously claim vanilla. Hell you even went on to say "Plus most mafias are given Vanillas a fake when they exist." which implies that scum could use vanilla fakeclaims, so you discredited the reason why you unvoted Orion. (you described this WIFOM as what made Orion better than Vader.) Do you still agree with this point?

Just because the mafia is given Vanilla as a fake doesn't mean that they're going to use it in a situation where they're claiming to get the lynch off. Mafias should claim vanilla at massclaim, if they want to. If you're claiming because you might get lynched, why would you claim that throwaway a role? That's not going to persuade anyone to stop voting for you. At best, they'll disregard it and treat you the same as before, and if you're unlucky, they might choose you over another potential lynch just because you have a worse role. "Claiming early" like some people were saying they'd do as Vanilla is dumb too, that doesn't make a difference to most people, as evidenced by everyone other than me not giving a shit about the Vanilla claim, and some people actually using its timing to push the lynch more.

This is the worst one because it's downplaying the possible existence of a second anti-town kill when you have no idea if Darth hit a killer or not.

This is only scummy if I'm the source of the second anti-town kill. Mafia don't mind discussing a third party because it's something they don't have to fake. And quite honestly I didn't realize after looking at Darth's role that he might have drawn the kill, until someone suggested it later.

Here's 4 instances of WIFOM which I disagree with. You're clearing and suspecting people based on actions you'd think a scum would do based on what scum thinks townies think scum would do. As for this, because I meant to respond but forgot:

Yeah, this is how people play as scum. They try to avoid what they think that town find scummy.

If "Traditional" scumtells apply to bad play, then surely players trying to avoid them means that they're trying to play well?

Town's first priority is finding scum, and THEN looking townie. Mafia's first priority is looking townie. They prioritize trying to avoid the lynch.

In addition to this, WIFOMing is not your only case of bad logic leading town astray; let's not forget using meta as a reason for voting Orion. There have been other people who have WIFOM'd this game and they're at fault too but you're the most guilty of it.

This is completely untrue; I've never attempted to meta Orion. I have no clue who Orion is. I had a small meta thing against Darth, but that wasn't the main reason I found him scummy. There was a bunch of other stuff there as well. WIFOM isn't "bad logic leading town astray" either. Where have I led the town astray? Out of those instances of WIFOM you point out, the only one who's flipped (Orion), I was correct about. I've WIFOMed the most this game, and I really don't see what's wrong with that.

This took longer than I thought and all of my enthusiasm for mafia right now. I'll ISO Mint and Jugger and let them squabble for a while before I make a decision about this face off.

I was out for most of the day and am tired, so I'll post more stuff in the morning. I'm not sure if England posted at all today though? Or Javert.

[Kamina]

I'm back to being pretty confident that Mint Slice isn't scum. Frantic town playing badly, maybe (has he even re-read the game since the start of today?), but his craziness today reads as town paranoia and I'm not sure where you can find scum intent in it either. Kind of think people are feeling inclined to vote him because he's annoying.

I can see scum intent in this, because instantly doubting the claim isn't the first thing that I think of (unless it's someone counterclaiming my role or something along those lines). I was also really annoyed with his in-thread actions, which is why I felt it wouldn't be wise to place a vote on him. For the sake of my eyes, please don't post a bajillion things in a row - cross-referencing those posts are a pain in the cranium. Though I can read scum intent behind it, I can also read town intent, and trying to argue which is what will only worsen my headache.

It's worth noting that if it is somehow 6:2:2, Fluttershy instantly jumping to the conclusion that her track result was the scum NK could be considered a scumslip.

Assuming double mafias, and I'm part of one, I think it would make more sense for me to keep quiet about it. It would work much like the vig theory that someone mentioned earlier (no I am not going back to find who said that).

I love it when players hand wave suspicious behavior as townies being townie, it makes them so much less believable.

The heck is this supposed to mean? Are you suspicious of fffff?

Also, for what it's worth, I think England isn't actually Shin, just somebody using RP as an excuse to lurk on purpose. Shin puts his emoticons before his punctuation :P.

which means I should lynch you for picking a name that could only belong to one of two people and then typing like the one you aren't

The first post time seems a little strange for Shin, but I don't see how this person is using it as an excuse to lurk? I see one to two posts per time phase when this person is supposedly active. Javert seems more post-bursty, but this doesn't tell me if he's scum or not. The strongest thing on England that I have is his consistently echoey content, while the strongest case on Javert is his "few reads" this far into the game (source). Fuck it, we need discussion, and me voting for England won't generate what I want.

##Vote: Javert