Suckiest character in FE10

[Anouleth]

So Oliver is only ever a negative, while Lyre can potentially be a positive.

No, Lyre can't be positive. It doesn't matter that Soren/Rolf/etc. might not be the best, they are better when deployed than Lyre, possibly even untrained (though I haven't checked that). Everyone is. Since there are more units than deployment slots and she's the worst of the units to choose from, deploying her is auto-negative.

In theory, Lyre could be massively RNG blessed and your other units could be massively RNG screwed, making her usable and a positive. Since Oliver's competition is still better than him at base stats, the same possibility does not exist for him. In addition, this hypothetical scenario would be longer in Lyre's case than Oliver, since she has better availability.

[Narga_Rocks]

I'm thinking that Pelleas would be better in the Japanese version than in the other versions. 13 crowns makes the cost of crowning him for staves very minor. You even get one (or maybe the guy said 2) in 4-2, so it's not like you are holding onto it for a while before giving it to him. It would probably also help Soren, though the walkthrough on gamefaqs isn't specific about when you get the 8 part 3 crowns and how many the GMs actually get before 3-11.

But in this version Pelleas is a decent candidate for someone's "worst" if they are playing HM. Depending on what you value, Lyre or Fiona could be seen as better than he is. If you focus mainly on part 4, then the cost of raising them is irrelevant. Pelleas is raised only in part 4, so some people may still see that as a painful cost, whereas they don't see it for Lyre and Fiona. If Oliver, a guy that doesn't even need a crown to perform healing, can be seen as potentially the suckiest, then I don't see why Pelleas wouldn't be a better candidate. At least Oliver is accurate with his magic.

So Oliver is only ever a negative, while Lyre can potentially be a positive.

No, Lyre can't be positive. It doesn't matter that Soren/Rolf/etc. might not be the best, they are better when deployed than Lyre, possibly even untrained (though I haven't checked that). Everyone is. Since there are more units than deployment slots and she's the worst of the units to choose from, deploying her is auto-negative.

In theory, Lyre could be massively RNG blessed and your other units could be massively RNG screwed, making her usable and a positive. Since Oliver's competition is still better than him at base stats, the same possibility does not exist for him. In addition, this hypothetical scenario would be longer in Lyre's case than Oliver, since she has better availability.

Low order probability.

We are talking like 1 x 10^-5 or something similar. It's hardly relevant. Oliver's "win" in the more common scenario over Lyre is more than enough to offset Lyre's "win" in the less common scenario. Don't forget, you get tons of units with great bases around that time, too, easily overpowering anything but the most blessed Lyre conceivable, and maybe even her.

Edited January 8, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

I'm thinking that Pelleas would be better in the Japanese version than in the other versions. 13 crowns makes the cost of crowning him for staves very minor. You even get one (or maybe the guy said 2) in 4-2, so it's not like you are holding onto it for a while before giving it to him. It would probably also help Soren, though the walkthrough on gamefaqs isn't specific about when you get the 8 part 3 crowns and how many the GMs actually get before 3-11.

Are you taking into account the fact that units need a Crown to promote in the Japanese version?

[Fayt Zelpher]

I'm thinking that Pelleas would be better in the Japanese version than in the other versions. 13 crowns makes the cost of crowning him for staves very minor. You even get one (or maybe the guy said 2) in 4-2, so it's not like you are holding onto it for a while before giving it to him. It would probably also help Soren, though the walkthrough on gamefaqs isn't specific about when you get the 8 part 3 crowns and how many the GMs actually get before 3-11.

Are you taking into account the fact that units need a Crown to promote in the Japanese version?

Not only that, but a lot of the crowns are hidden items. Of course, Japanese FE10 had the item finding glitch, but it's not like your thieves and lords are always going to be able to get all of your crowns to begin with, so it's quite possible that you're only getting 9-10, especially on HM since you need to make sure you're getting all or nearly all of the BEXP since you've effectively got 1/4 as much as NM

[Narga_Rocks]

I'm thinking that Pelleas would be better in the Japanese version than in the other versions. 13 crowns makes the cost of crowning him for staves very minor. You even get one (or maybe the guy said 2) in 4-2, so it's not like you are holding onto it for a while before giving it to him. It would probably also help Soren, though the walkthrough on gamefaqs isn't specific about when you get the 8 part 3 crowns and how many the GMs actually get before 3-11.

Are you taking into account the fact that units need a Crown to promote in the Japanese version?

But how many do you normally promote in this version? With just one royal and Elincia, you only need 8 crowns for the tower. That's 5 extra to play with. Pelleas doesn't even take one of the 5 extra if you are sending him to the tower. With more royals, or some laguz, that's even more extra crowns. I might crown Gatrie, Haar, Titania and not take them to the tower, but that's still leaving me 2 more crowns that I can play with in addition to Pelleas'. Maybe Heather, maybe Tauroneo. Geoffrey needs a speedwing for a crown to be useful on him in 3-9, so that's out. I don't think it matters all that much that crowns are necessary. Of course, I don't remember quite how many units I promoted total when I played HM. Maybe there's someone I'm forgetting. Also, Mist has her own. That's a lot of units you can have in tier 3 anyway.

Also, the last one is apparently 4-2, which is kinda perfect for him. He can promote almost as soon as he shows up (probably a couple of turns later) and not delay the promotion of any other unit.

And I'm not certain just how many of the 13 were hidden. I know there is one hidden in 3-5 that may not be picked up if you are clearing it in like 2 or 3 turns, so that could be an issue. The one in 4-P seems simple enough, and Sothe is forced and not so great by this point anyway. I have no clue where the other 6 (13 - (5 + 2) = 6) are, though, since only the 3-5 and 4-P ones are mentioned on this site.

If nothing else, it may push Heather into upper mid if there are enough hidden crowns in part 3. Sure, your other units can get them too, but it is undeniably more efficient to take just one crack at it and get it than needing 3 or 4 attempts, maybe more, to get something. Especially since many of the units with better skill scores also happen to be good enough that they have other tasks.

Edited January 8, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

I'm thinking that Pelleas would be better in the Japanese version than in the other versions. 13 crowns makes the cost of crowning him for staves very minor. You even get one (or maybe the guy said 2) in 4-2, so it's not like you are holding onto it for a while before giving it to him. It would probably also help Soren, though the walkthrough on gamefaqs isn't specific about when you get the 8 part 3 crowns and how many the GMs actually get before 3-11.

Are you taking into account the fact that units need a Crown to promote in the Japanese version?

But how many do you normally promote in this version? With just one royal and Elincia, you only need 8 crowns for the tower. That's 5 extra to play with. Pelleas doesn't even take one of the 5 extra if you are sending him to the tower. With more royals, or some laguz, that's even more extra crowns. I might crown Gatrie, Haar, Titania and not take them to the tower, but that's still leaving me 2 more crowns that I can play with in addition to Pelleas'. Maybe Heather, maybe Tauroneo. Geoffrey needs a speedwing for a crown to be useful on him in 3-9, so that's out. I don't think it matters all that much that crowns are necessary. Of course, I don't remember quite how many units I promoted total when I played HM. Maybe there's someone I'm forgetting. Also, Mist has her own. That's a lot of units you can have in tier 3 anyway.

Also, the last one is apparently 4-2, which is kinda perfect for him. He can promote almost as soon as he shows up (probably a couple of turns later) and not delay the promotion of any other unit.

I wasn't disagreeing with you, I was only asking if you had taken that fact into account. I personally tend to promote around 10-12 characters if I recall correctly, though that's mainly because I rarely use Royals (or Laguz for that matter. The only Laguz I consistently use is Volug and then the Hawks for weakening) and the only third tier units I tend to use are Elincia and Sanaki (And only because she's forced). But of course, that's just me.

[Narga_Rocks]

I'm thinking that Pelleas would be better in the Japanese version than in the other versions. 13 crowns makes the cost of crowning him for staves very minor. You even get one (or maybe the guy said 2) in 4-2, so it's not like you are holding onto it for a while before giving it to him. It would probably also help Soren, though the walkthrough on gamefaqs isn't specific about when you get the 8 part 3 crowns and how many the GMs actually get before 3-11.

Are you taking into account the fact that units need a Crown to promote in the Japanese version?

But how many do you normally promote in this version? With just one royal and Elincia, you only need 8 crowns for the tower. That's 5 extra to play with. Pelleas doesn't even take one of the 5 extra if you are sending him to the tower. With more royals, or some laguz, that's even more extra crowns. I might crown Gatrie, Haar, Titania and not take them to the tower, but that's still leaving me 2 more crowns that I can play with in addition to Pelleas'. Maybe Heather, maybe Tauroneo. Geoffrey needs a speedwing for a crown to be useful on him in 3-9, so that's out. I don't think it matters all that much that crowns are necessary. Of course, I don't remember quite how many units I promoted total when I played HM. Maybe there's someone I'm forgetting. Also, Mist has her own. That's a lot of units you can have in tier 3 anyway.

Also, the last one is apparently 4-2, which is kinda perfect for him. He can promote almost as soon as he shows up (probably a couple of turns later) and not delay the promotion of any other unit.

I wasn't disagreeing with you, I was only asking if you had taken that fact into account. I personally tend to promote around 10-12 characters if I recall correctly, though that's mainly because I rarely use Royals (or Laguz for that matter. The only Laguz I consistently use is Volug and then the Hawks for weakening) and the only third tier units I tend to use are Elincia and Sanaki (And only because she's forced). But of course, that's just me.

Well, I was thinking of the italicizing of "need" and thought that was implied disagreement with the crown being cheaper in the Japanese version for him than in the North American or PAL versions. Anyway, looks like we agree that the number of promoted characters runs just a little over 10, and even that is only if the number of laguz and royals in use is somewhat low.

Edited January 8, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Fireman]

I'd rather not, but to be consistent...I've locked this thread due to the necropost that brought it back, made a a few pages ago. Now any of you are free to carry out this conversation in a new topic, just not this topic.

Edited January 9, 2010 by Fireman