Lakche (Me) vs Shanan (Shanan)

[Dat Nick]

No, I'm not gonna throw this, so Shanan, you better give it your all and kick my ass, otherwise the Lakche lovers are gonna take a dig at you.

Okay, first off, probably the most vital portion of the debate: Who gets to score with Ayra and make babies? Let's write them off one by one.

Noish: Somewhat of a fan favorite, and while MUCH better than some other pairings, is generally outclassed due to sacrificing stats for overkill on skills. His one plus is that not a lot of girls want him, but it's the same story with Lex, so we'll pass on him.

Alec: Pretty much the above.

Fin: ...It's do-able, but why?

Arden: Passable, but clearly inferior to a certian other pairing.

Azel: No. Magic and physicals do NOT mix well. Unless you're Rana in which case you're fine for magic no matter what.

Lex: A rather popular pairing, and with good reason. Also, it should be known that the Elite Ring AND the Elite skill stack on top of one another, making Lex's kids really awesome, really fast. I'm going to exploit the hell out of this in my debate, so we're going with this.

Midir: Not terrible, but not really worth it, either.

Dew: Totally doable, but, again, not as good as Lex.

Jamka: You could, but again, why?

Holyn: Another good choice, good stats and little competition. Not as good as Lex, though.

Levin: No.

Claude: hell no.

That's just factoring in Lakche and the guy who isn't Roddleban who's name I can never spell, too. Giving one of the "passable" pairings to somebody else can screw another set of characters over totally, but I won't get into this since it's pretty much accepted that Lex/Ayra is a win pairing anyway, so I doubt he's going to attack this portion of my argument, if even acknowledge it. So yeah, we're going with Lex x Ayra here.

Anyway, 4x EXP at the very start is too awesome to just ignore. Nothing wrong with letting Lakche hold the elite bracelet for bit before other characters get enough gold to pawn it off of her.

...With just 4x EXP and the arena, Lakche is going to rocket up levels pretty quickly, not to mention she'll probably have the hero sword Ayra got from Lex. Now, 4x EXP is so RIDICULOUSLY win that Lakche can be promoted without very much favoritism at all, but I'm going to do Shanan a favor and be mean to his niece by locking her at level 10.

...Even then...

Lakche 10: 41 HP, 14 str, 19 skl, 16 spd, 12 def, 12 luck

Shanan 12: 38 HP, 18 str, 22 skl, 23 spd, 13 def, 10 lck

It seems like Shanan is raping her, but really, they're about even. Shanan's offense lead and Balmunk doesn't matter as much as you think since Lakche rapes things just fine, and Shanan doesn't even need Balmunk that much since he's raping stuff already, it just helps in dodging long rangers and crap like that. So really, Shanan's only real win is move and dodging long rangers, which isn't really enough to write off Lakche altogether.

Even if you DO ditch the Elite bracelet here, Lakche can still probably rack up levels really fast because lol elite. We'll give Lakche about five levels, whereas Shanan gets about three. And remember, this is me being really nice to Shanan and really mean to Lakche.

Shanan 15: 42 HP, 19 str, 24 skl, 24 spd, 14 def, 11 lck

Lakche 15: 47 HP, 19 str, 23 skl, 19 spd, 15 def, 13 lck

Just in case you're wondering how Lakche magically tied Shanan for str, Lakche gets a +2 str talk with Shanan.

Now, Lakche has Elite, Shanan doesn't. I don't know if being promoted cuts EXP regardless of your level in FE4, but again, let's be nice to Shanan and assume it doesn't. Now, with or without the Elite bracelet, Lakche continues to gain EXP faster than Shanan. So, let's fast forward to Lakche's promotion time, and again, give Lakche five levels, Shanan three.

Lakche 20: 54 HP, 26 str, 30 skl, 25 spd, 20 def, 15 lck

Shanan 18: 45 HP, 20 str, 27 skl, 24 spd, 15 def, 11 lck

Lakche is winning from this point on so I won't drag it out.

Summary, yes, Shanan does get a hell of a lot of avoid and high astra chance of activation with Balmunk, but there's several problems with this: Despite money not being THAT much of an issue in this game, paying 50k every time Balmunk runs out of uses can be rather annoying, although using it to dodge longrangers doesn't do anything to drain the uses. Shanan actually DOESN'T want to use Balmunk all that much since it's generally overkill and his durability is w1n enough to ensure he won't actually NEED to dodge that much, so most of the time all it does is waste funds. Lakche's concrete durability win is also a plus for her since if you do nothing but keep Balmunk on Shanan ALL the time, you're going to run out of dough quickly, so it kind of makes her less reliant on her weapon, although Shanan is by no means totally reliant on his. All things considered, throughout the whole game, they are very, very, close, and if Shanan DOES edge her out, it's not by very much. Offense is never an issue for either since both murder everything, and both have excellent durability and are never really in danger of dying, although Shanan does do slightly better against a few things, such as ballista and those pesky Hell users in C10. Apart from that, they're very close the whole game and neither one overshadows the other by all that much.

And a foreword, to my opponent. I just wanted to say that quite clearly I don't really give a damn if I win or lose this, as it's all in the name of FE knowledge. Instead, I would like to state that rather than hatred, I offer nothing but full support for my fellow debater, as I totally feel his pain. Every day, myself and many other members on GameSpot must witness the idiot rants of the forum plague nobody likes known as "Endgame", and as much as I would love to get into this, that's another show. Shanan, the member, not the prince of Isaac, and not the character I am arguing against, on behalf of all forumgoers on gamespot who must deal with the low INT score of Endgame day in and day out, I salute you, and all those who fight for your cause.

Now get out there and rip me apart. But I'm not going down without a fight. Besides, the proof gets that much more solid if you kick my ass without me holding back.

Edited January 22, 2009 by MightyZagaro

[Seph]

Good luck.

I'll be replying again tomorrow, since I'm busy today.

Anyway I don't even have to debate. This picture shows you the winner:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/Dar...anthebest-1.png

Just kidding. Time to debate.

So yeah, we're going with Lex x Ayra here.

Fine, I'm alright with that.

I am assuming Silver Sword here, by the way. Go ahead and debate it if you want. Lakche is already pretty good with the Silver Sword and the Hero Sword should go to shit like Patty or Nanna if you will. Giving Lakche the Hero Sword is unneeded favoritism, and I'm happy to debate that. And even with the Hero Sword, Shanan > Lakche, which I am here to prove.

Anyway, 4x EXP at the very start is too awesome to just ignore. Nothing wrong with letting Lakche hold the elite bracelet for bit before other characters get enough gold to pawn it off of her.

Hmnah. Elite Ring does not work together with Elite. Elite gives your character the Elite skill, which Lakche already has. Elite + Elite Ring always gives the same exp. Want proof?

You might find it funny that Lakche is using the Hero Sword while I suggested the Silver Sword.. well, that playthrough was when I was a beginner.

So, you think I'm lying. That's fine and all, but go try it yourself if that's the case. But I'm not lying, I took that possible thought of yours into account too just in case.

Yeah.. let's give someone with Elite the Elite Bracelet, shall we? Favoritism /=/ part of a debate.

That's just huge favoritism and it's mostly you using it as a tool just to prove that Lakche > Shanan.. Lakche already has Elite, for one, why the hell would she need an Elite Bracelet. Someone who needs it more could take it - Celice, if you will. He should have the Leg Ring in order to conquer castles faster, and he needs to be stronger in order to battle more efficiently. After all, in this tactics rank, Celice HAS to rush, he needs to be durable and powerful. Lakche? Not so fucking much.

Lakche is already going to kick ass even without the Elite Ring. It makes like no difference for her. It's stupid to suggest it even.

Alright, so, Lakche is not getting the Elite Ring, for two reasons. That's one argument down.

...With just 4x EXP and the arena, Lakche is going to rocket up levels pretty quickly, not to mention she'll probably have the hero sword Ayra got from Lex. Now, 4x EXP is so RIDICULOUSLY win that Lakche can be promoted without very much favoritism at all, but I'm going to do Shanan a favor and be mean to his niece by locking her at level 10.

She's going to have the Silver Sword. That 4x argument went down the drain by the way.

Giving Lakche the Hero Sword is favoritism. If a character is godly with a weaker weapon, why not give the better weapon to someone who needs it moar? Lakche is killing a lot of things anyway. Also don't forget, Hero Sword overrides Continue after promotion which Lakche will get early. Anyway, let's do some checking.

Patty!Holyn: Assuming Holyn is the father, you want an efficient father to raise Patty and get her the Hero Sword. You want to debate Holyn!Patty? Go ahead. It's either Ayra or Bridget and well it's Bridget now. ANYWAY, Patty will fall in love with the Hero Sword. She needs it for good exp (tough for her to get without Lex) and killing potential. You will definitely want to pass Patty the Hero Sword.

Nanna: Another person who wants Lakche's beloved Hero Sword. She's a decent staff user and will want to get some levels. She comes at the beginning of Chapter 7, far away from your main army with shit like Fin and Leaf. Leaf or Nanna can get the Hero Sword, whatever you choose. Nanna is pretty weak there at first and she'll want to help kill some enemies there for exp.

They deserve the Hero Sword moar than Lakche for sure. Heck Skasaha and Delmud could make more use of it. I'd say Lead but you need the sword for Chapters 4 and 5.

Lakche 10: 41 HP, 14 str, 19 skl, 16 spd, 12 def, 12 luck

Shanan 12: 38 HP, 18 str, 22 skl, 23 spd, 13 def, 10 lck

It seems like Shanan is raping her, but really, they're about even. Shanan's offense lead and Balmunk doesn't matter as much as you think since Lakche rapes things just fine, and Shanan doesn't even need Balmunk that much since he's raping stuff already, it just helps in dodging long rangers and crap like that. So really, Shanan's only real win is move and dodging long rangers, which isn't really enough to write off Lakche altogether.

I dislike this. Let's be generous to Lakche by making her level 10, since well Elite + Elite Ring isn't likely.

Way to go ignoring might, avoid etc. the more important stuff.

Lakche 10 (Silver Sword): 41 HP, 28 might, 118 hit, 38 avoid, 13 AS, 12 def. Does not have Continue, 19% chance to activate Meteor Sword.

Shanan 12 (Balmung): 38 HP, 48(!) might, 154 hit, 90 avoid, 40 AS, 13 def. Has 60% chance to activate Continue, 32% chance to activate Meteor Sword.

Shanan: -3 HP, +20 might, +36 hit, +52 avoid, +27 AS, +1 def, +60% chance to activate Continue, +13% to activate Meteor Sword.

Even my ass. The winner here is so obvious, I don't even have to say it. The difference is gigantic, really. Lakche is still far from invincible with her only 38 avoid, she is going to take some hits for sure. Shanan has 52 more avoid. 52. And her combat potential is way less than Shanan, since she's not going to have the Hero Sword and even then Shanan is much better. The thing here is, Lakche can't one round everything (no Continue) while Shanan can. Shanan is pretty much killing everything in Chapter 7 except for Blume (heck Shanan still has a little chance against him but Aless / Arthur will be main bitch here), and even then what chance does Lakche have against him precisely?

Even if you DO ditch the Elite bracelet here, Lakche can still probably rack up levels really fast because lol elite. We'll give Lakche about five levels, whereas Shanan gets about three. And remember, this is me being really nice to Shanan and really mean to Lakche.

Shanan 15: 42 HP, 19 str, 24 skl, 24 spd, 14 def, 11 lck

Lakche 15: 47 HP, 19 str, 23 skl, 19 spd, 15 def, 13 lck

No, this is you not knowing that Elite + Elite Bracelet is unlikely and me showing that you are being VERY generous to Lakche by saying that you gave her the Elite Bracelet and getting her to level 15.

Moar liek (let's be generous to Lakche shall we):

Shanan 15 (Balmung): 42 HP, 49 might, 158 hit, 42 AS, 93 avoid, 14 def. 62% for Continue and 34% for Meteor Sword.

Lakche 15 (Silver Sword): 47 HP, 33 might, 126 hit, 16 AS, 45 avoid, 15 def. No Continue and 23% for Meteor Sword.

The lead is still liek gigantic here. You can actually rely on Shanan's avoid since it's so goddamn high.

Earlygame winner: Shanan.

Now, Lakche has Elite, Shanan doesn't. I don't know if being promoted cuts EXP regardless of your level in FE4, but again, let's be nice to Shanan and assume it doesn't. Now, with or without the Elite bracelet, Lakche continues to gain EXP faster than Shanan. So, let's fast forward to Lakche's promotion time, and again, give Lakche five levels, Shanan three.

Lakche 20: 54 HP, 26 str, 30 skl, 25 spd, 20 def, 15 lck

Shanan 23: 51 HP, 21 str, 29 skl, 25 spd, 17 def, 12 lck

Lakche is winning from this point on so I won't drag it out.

Shanan is supposed to be 18, not 23..

The fuck, Lakche is winning?

No Elite Bracelet for Lakche, first off.

I'll fix this for you and make this debate fair. Shanan was 15, so it's +3 which makes it 18.

Lakche 20: 54 HP, 26 Str, 30 skl, 25 spd, 20 def, 15 lck.

Shanan 18: 45 HP, 19 Str, 26 Skl, 24 Spd, 15 def, 11 lck.

Lakche 20 (Silver Sword): 54 HP, 40 might, 140 hit, 22 AS, 59 avoid, 20 def. 42% for Continue, 30% for Meteor Sword.

Shanan 18 (Balmung): 45 HP, 49 might, 162 hit, 41 AS, 93 avoid, 15 def. 61% for Continue, 36% for Meteor Sword.

Shanan: -9 HP, +9 might, +22 hit, +19 AS, +34 avoid, -5 def. +19% for Continue, +6% for Meteor Sword.

This is the point of the game at which they're the closest, and Shanan is STILL winning.

Midgame winner: Shanan.

Despite money not being THAT much of an issue in this game, paying 50k every time Balmunk runs out of uses can be rather annoying

Except well you don't have to use the Balmunk all the time in a chapter and for the Arena and you can use lover / thief / Arena support however you like which is very useful indeed. Balmung will probably break like once in every two / three chapters. Every time you beat the Arena, you get 17500 cash. 17500 x 2 = 35000. It's pretty easy to cover the cost of Balmung.

Shanan actually DOESN'T want to use Balmunk all that much since it's generally overkill and his durability is w1n enough to ensure he won't actually NEED to dodge that much, so most of the time all it does is waste funds.

What? Maybe you forgot that everyone in this game gets their own gold or that funds isn't a rank. Wasting funds my ass. If his lover is Lakche, and Lakche has a lot of cash forever, then well Shanan has no cash problems. Also, remember that with the tactics rank, units not on horseback aren't getting as much action.

Lakche's concrete durability win is also a plus for her since if you do nothing but keep Balmunk on Shanan ALL the time, you're going to run out of dough quickly, so it kind of makes her less reliant on her weapon, although Shanan is by no means totally reliant on his.

In the times you don't use Balmung, it'll be the times when using the Balmung doesn't matter since you'll be just as successful without the Balmung and to save cash or whatever.

Okay, let's assume, Shanan does use the Balmung all the time. Remember, he's not horseback so he can't keep up with Leaf / Celice etc. Therefore, his sword will have a hard time breaking. Maybe once in 2 or 3 chapters, but even in 2 chapters, it's enough. And don't forget, lover / thief support when needed.

All things considered, throughout the whole game, they are very, very, close, and if Shanan DOES edge her out, it's not by very much.

I wouldn't say very, very close.

Let's say level 23 for Shanan and level 28 for Lakche (being extremely generous here). Hero Sword not being used since it overrides Continue and other people want it.

23 Shanan (Balmung): 51 HP, 51 might, 168 hit, 42 AS, 96 avoid, 17 def. 62% for Continue. 39% for Meteor Sword.

28 Lakche (Silver Sword): 63 HP, 40 might, 140 hit, 25 AS, 66 avoid, 21 def. 45% for Continue, 30% for Meteor Sword.

Midgame winner (again): Shanan.

Even with the 5 levels, I know who I'd go for.

Let's say endgame, both are maxed.

30 Shanan (Balmung): 59 HP, 53 might, 170 hit, 43 AS, 99 avoid, 20 def. 63% for Continue, 40% for Meteor Sword.

30 Lakche (Silver Sword): 66 HP, 41 might, 140 hit, 25 AS, 66 avoid, 22 def. 45% for Continue, 30% for Meteor Sword.

Shanan: -7 HP, +12 might, +30 hit, +18 AS, +33 avoid, -2 def, +18% for Continue, +10% for Meteor Sword.

Endgame winner: Shanan.

Yeah, I know who I'd go for.

Offense is never an issue for either since both murder everything, and both have excellent durability and are never really in danger of dying, although Shanan does do slightly better against a few things, such as ballista and those pesky Hell users in C10. Apart from that, they're very close the whole game and neither one overshadows the other by all that much.

Shanan's avoid is always like 25 (at least) or 55 (at most) more and defence difference is only a few.

Yes, I have to admit, they don't overshadow each other by very much (not like Sigurd - Arden or anything), but Shanan is clearly the winner here, as I have proved, hopefully.

Summary:

Lakche has 1 chapter advantage (an easy chapter I might add). But Shanan is better in all the chapters he's in.

Earlygame winner: Shanan.

Midgame winner: Shanan.

Endgame winner: Shanan.

Shanan is consistently better than Lakche all the time he's around. Therefore, Shanan > Lakche.

Seriously.. Shanan is always better in combat and people in Best Swordmaster/Forrest in FE4 thread vote for Lakche like x2 more?

For shame, Serenes.

Edited January 22, 2009 by Shanan

[Dat Nick]

I'll start off by explaining Shannan. Anyway I don't even have to debate. This picture shows you the winner:

Yeah? Lakche has pretty large breasts, and she's probably the kind of badass chick who has tatoos and piercings, too. That's hot. Oh, and she kicked her brother's ass in a fight without the below the belt method. And she punches John Cena's head clean off in one hit, and she threw a monster truck into the sun...while Clint Eastwood was trying to run her over. Pauly Shore looks more masculine than Shanan. Lakche wins.

Go ahead and debate it if you want. Lakche is already pretty good with the Silver Sword and the Hero Sword should go to shit like Patty or Nanna if you will.

...You realize that you get THREE hero swords in the game, right? You have the Hero Sword Ayra got from Lex, the sword in C8, and Patty gets one if she talks with Serlis in C7, unless Serlis somehow managed to make a lover in one chapter's time. Somehow, I can't see any reasonable player having Serlis and Rana sitting next to each other and flirting for 100+ whatever turns just so you can screw yourself out of a Hero Sword as Serlis x Rana is pretty easy to make and you have plenty of time to make it later, anyway. Lakche isn't all that dependant on the sword anyway since her stats still kick ass, and rise fast due to her low starting level and Elite. Patty also gets Pursuit on promotion, so after that she doesn't need it, either. It's not really much of a cause for favoritism. ...Hey, now that I mention it, can Patty even USE the sword? IIRC she's at C until promotion, Hero Sword is B, though I'll admit I'm not too well informed in how weapon ranks are passed down. Apply that to Nanna, too: No point in giving her the sword if she can't use it. But as you said, Silver Sword is more than effective anyway so I'm willing to make it a moot point. Hell, if Pursuit was passed down to Patty, then she already doesn't need the sword.

Elite gives your character the Elite skill, which Lakche already has. Elite + Elite Ring always gives the same exp. Want proof?

Whoops. My mistake. Hm. Nearly certain they DID stack. That's what I get for playing too much FE5, I guess. Elite still give insane amounts of EXP and I was being REALLY stingy with the EXP gain even assuming four levels, so I still don't thing my average levels are too off.

Lakche is killing a lot of things anyway.

Meaning her losing the sword isn't really a big deal anyway.

Nanna: Another person who wants Lakche's beloved Hero Sword.

Yeah. IF she can use it. If her weapon level isn't B, and since weapon levels are unaffected until promotion, well, then she's shit out of luck, isn't she?

Let's be generous to Lakche by making her level 10, since well Elite + Elite Ring isn't likely.

Well, she got seven free kills in the arena, unless there was some demigod in the Arena she couldn't beat the crap out of. Add that to whatever she got on the map and even with 2X elite it doesn't really seem that unplausable.

Lakche is still far from invincible with her only 38 avoid, she is going to take some hits for sure.

She's still probably not going down before Rana heals her. 41 HP and 12 def are pretty solid numbers.

since she's not going to have the Hero Sword

Unless Patty/Nanna can't use the sword, of course, then nobody really gives a shit. I'll be amazed if Lakche needs it past this chapter anyway, because, well, more Elite+arena fun, and she gets even more arena time in the next chapter, and another hero sword is up for grabs.

he thing here is, Lakche can't one round everything (no Continue)

...Really? Are FE4 enemies that hardcore?

No, this is you not knowing that Elite + Elite Bracelet is unlikely and me showing that you are being VERY generous to Lakche by saying that you gave her the Elite Bracelet and getting her to level 15.

...I kinda figured this out the first five times you said it. You can stop being a dick about it now, I've already ditched the argument because you've pointed out I was wrong, no need to keep rubbing it in.

The lead is still liek gigantic here. You can actually rely on Shanan's avoid since it's so goddamn high.

Yeah. But does it really help that much? Lakche is already pretty durable and won't be dying all that much, if ever. Meanwhile you have Rana running around the map with the Physic staff Adean passed down to her, so her not being able to get healed in time is pretty much never happening. Besides, Lakche doesn't die, and Rana gets EXP. Everybody wins and nobody loses, since you're not slowing down to her, thanks to Physic. Yayz.

This is the point of the game at which they're the closest, and Shanan is STILL winning.

But by how much? Both are one rounding everything, so Shanan's better chance at activating skills aren't really relevant, and neither is his might lead. neither are dying ever, Lakche ties him for move now. Shanan's only real win is avoid, which is only present when he has Balmunk equipped. And it didn't even take Lakche all that long to catch up.

Except well you don't have to use the Balmunk all the time in a chapter

Of course not. He doesn't even need Balmunk all that much at all with the exception of maybe bosses. But it's still the only time he has any real win over Lakche. And they're still basically tied without Balmunk, Lakche only winning slightly, slightly, SLIGHTLY more.

What? Maybe you forgot that everyone in this game gets their own gold or that funds isn't a rank. Wasting funds my ass.

Lakche, his fastest lover, is still 180 turns away, though. And a waste is still a waste if you use Balmunk on something that could have been killed with a steel broadsword, so he's still not gonna be using it if he doesn't need it.

Hero Sword not being used since it overrides Continue and other people want it.

Assuming they STILL want it. Patty's strength gets pretty awesome after promotion, and she gets Pursuit so she's not relying on the sword to double anymore. Nanna? Fine, point taken, since even Beowulf isn't saving her strength. Heck, you said it yourself, Hero Sword cancels out Adept, and it has lower mt than Silver Sword, so why would she want it?

23 Shanan (Balmung): 51 HP, 51 might, 168 hit, 42 AS, 96 avoid, 17 def. 62% for Continue. 39% for Meteor Sword.

28 Lakche (Silver Sword): 63 HP, 40 might, 140 hit, 25 AS, 66 avoid, 21 def. 45% for Continue, 30% for Meteor Sword.

But out of all these leads, what that isn't Avoid is relevant? 45% for Continue is better than it looks since that can activate on BOTH strikes, bumping up the percentage of it activating to almost 75%. So on the few things that Lakche ISN'T one rounding, it has a pretty good chance at finishing.

30 Shanan (Balmung): 59 HP, 53 might, 170 hit, 43 AS, 99 avoid, 20 def. 63% for Continue, 40% for Meteor Sword.

30 Lakche (Silver Sword): 66 HP, 41 might, 140 hit, 25 AS, 66 avoid, 22 def. 45% for Continue, 30% for Meteor Sword.

The above still applies, I feel, even if he has closed the durability gap significantly.

But Shanan is better in all the chapters he's in.

Significantly better until Lakche promotes, and that's assuming Lakche CAN'T one round crap in C7. From when Lakche promotes to Endgame, it's much closer, and Shanan only has a win in avo. Lakche also at one point has a pretty significant win in concrete durability, which does SOMEWHAT compensate for Balmunk. As stated, neither one of them is really dying, anyway. Physic ftw.

Earlygame winner: Shanan.

Midgame winner: Shanan.

Endgame winner: Shanan.

Also likely true: However, after a certian point, the only things that make him a winner is his avoid lead, which really isn't enough to say that he's crushing Lakche at any given point past Lakche's promotion.

[Seph]

PS: It may seem I'm doing a lot of repetition, but most of the quotes have the same answers.

Yeah? Lakche has pretty large breasts, and she's probably the kind of badass chick who has tatoos and piercings, too. That's hot. Oh, and she kicked her brother's ass in a fight without the below the belt method. And she punches John Cena's head clean off in one hit, and she threw a monster truck into the sun...while Clint Eastwood was trying to run her over. Pauly Shore looks more masculine than Shanan. Lakche wins.

What the fuck are you talking about. Shanan one rounded Julius, damn it.

Also, wait, what?

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/fe/fe_museum/sei...racter2_01.html

Large breasts? I don't see them.

Hats off to your creativity, though.

...You realize that you get THREE hero swords in the game, right? You have the Hero Sword Ayra got from Lex, the sword in C8, and Patty gets one if she talks with Serlis in C7

http://serenesforest.net/fe4/location.html

Two Hero swords. If your ass got the Hero Sword from the Lex / Holyn convo, then you don't get the Hero Sword in Chapter 8 from Coruta.

k, EVEN if you do get 3 Hero Swords, Lakche is already going to be promoted with Continue so it'll be a waste to use the Hero Sword since it overrides Continue.

And one more thing. Leaf wants that too. Hero Axe fails compared to Hero Sword. You could even give the Hero Axe to Johan really, if you want that is.

Patty also gets Pursuit on promotion, so after that she doesn't need it, either. It's not really much of a cause for favoritism. ...Hey, now that I mention it, can Patty even USE the sword? IIRC she's at C until promotion,

Lakche is promoting before Patty and she has Continue. Waste of a Hero Sword, since it overrides Continue.

That's why I said Patty!Holyn. Holyn gives minor Odo blood.

Apply that to Nanna, too: No point in giving her the sword if she can't use it. But as you said, Silver Sword is more than effective anyway so I'm willing to make it a moot point. Hell, if Pursuit was passed down to Patty, then she already doesn't need the sword.

Nanna can use the sword.

http://serenesforest.net/fe4/class_weapon.html

Go to Troubadour.

Whoops. My mistake. Hm. Nearly certain they DID stack. That's what I get for playing too much FE5, I guess. Elite still give insane amounts of EXP and I was being REALLY stingy with the EXP gain even assuming four levels, so I still don't thing my average levels are too off.

No problem.

Meaning her losing the sword isn't really a big deal anyway.

Yeah but at least she's less efficient without the Hero Sword (for good reasons) so it helps my argument.

Yeah. IF she can use it. If her weapon level isn't B, and since weapon levels are unaffected until promotion, well, then she's shit out of luck, isn't she?

http://serenesforest.net/fe4/class_weapon.html

Well, she got seven free kills in the arena, unless there was some demigod in the Arena she couldn't beat the crap out of. Add that to whatever she got on the map and even with 2X elite it doesn't really seem that unplausable.

Never said it was unplausable, did I? I was merely being generous.

She's still probably not going down before Rana heals her. 41 HP and 12 def are pretty solid numbers.

They are, but the healer thing goes to most characters, Lakche is one of them. What if another character needs Rana too? What if Rana is too far away? etc.

Plus the fact that Lakche NEEDS a healer and of Shanan NOT needing a healer is a very good point for Shanan.

Unless Patty/Nanna can't use the sword, of course, then nobody really gives a shit. I'll be amazed if Lakche needs it past this chapter anyway, because, well, more Elite+arena fun, and she gets even more arena time in the next chapter, and another hero sword is up for grabs.

Explained this earlier.

...Really? Are FE4 enemies that hardcore?

Not really, but they have gigantic HP compared to the other games. Lakche can one round them with Meteor Sword, but two hits aren't usually enough. Look at Chapter 6.

...I kinda figured this out the first five times you said it. You can stop being a dick about it now, I've already ditched the argument because you've pointed out I was wrong, no need to keep rubbing it in.

Sorry about that. But I thought that there might be a chance you'd continue it so I wanted to take that chance.

Yeah. But does it really help that much? Lakche is already pretty durable and won't be dying all that much, if ever. Meanwhile you have Rana running around the map with the Physic staff Adean passed down to her, so her not being able to get healed in time is pretty much never happening. Besides, Lakche doesn't die, and Rana gets EXP. Everybody wins and nobody loses, since you're not slowing down to her, thanks to Physic. Yayz.

Not needing a healer >>>> needing a healer.

It pretty much shows that Shanan > Lakche. Shanan doesn't have to occupy someone with his healing needs while Lakche does. And also take a time to remember that Shanan has a huge lead during those times..

But by how much? Both are one rounding everything, so Shanan's better chance at activating skills aren't really relevant, and neither is his might lead. neither are dying ever, Lakche ties him for move now. Shanan's only real win is avoid, which is only present when he has Balmunk equipped. And it didn't even take Lakche all that long to catch up.

Winning by this much:

Shanan: -9 HP, +9 might, +22 hit, +19 AS, +34 avoid, -5 def. +19% for Continue, +6% for Meteor Sword.

He has 9 more might and 34 more avoid, the most important ones. His real win is might too, by a grand total of 9 which is pretty amazing, especially considering that Shanan is not very highly leveled and Lakche just got promotion bonuses. His Continue is activating almost 20% more too, that's 100/5. Pretty impressive.

Why shouldn't he have Balmung equipped? The times you use Balmung are the times when it'll be useful to you and effect the efficiency of your game in a positively way. You'll definitely be using Balmung most of the time, for killing and avoiding stuff. When you feel that it's not essential to use it and it doesn't change the pace or efficiency of the game, then it's really not going to change anything so it doesn't work as an argument against Shanan.

Lakche didn't catch up. She's still behind him.

Of course not. He doesn't even need Balmunk all that much at all with the exception of maybe bosses. But it's still the only time he has any real win over Lakche. And they're still basically tied without Balmunk, Lakche only winning slightly, slightly, SLIGHTLY more.

I think you're underestimating the usefulness of Balmung here.

The times you use Balmung are the times when it'll be useful to you and effect the efficiency of your game in a positively way. You'll definitely be using Balmung most of the time, for killing and avoiding stuff. When you feel that it's not essential to use it and it doesn't change the pace or efficiency of the game, then it's really not going to change anything so it doesn't work as an argument against Shanan.

Lakche, his fastest lover, is still 180 turns away, though. And a waste is still a waste if you use Balmunk on something that could have been killed with a steel broadsword, so he's still not gonna be using it if he doesn't need it.

Let's check this out.

http://serenesforest.net/fe4/love.html

Lakche and Shanan start off with 220, and grow +1. When they stand adjacent, it counts for +5. So +6.

And then:

http://serenesforest.net/fe4/event.html

+100 love points.

320 base and +6 each turn. So let's see.

500 - 320 = 180. 180 / 6 = 30 turns.

Assuming they STILL want it. Patty's strength gets pretty awesome after promotion, and she gets Pursuit so she's not relying on the sword to double anymore. Nanna? Fine, point taken, since even Beowulf isn't saving her strength. Heck, you said it yourself, Hero Sword cancels out Adept, and it has lower mt than Silver Sword, so why would she want it?

http://fea.fewiki.net/fea.php?character=pa...lyn&game=4x

Pretty awesome eh? The cap is 22. She'll love to have it against the immense HP of FE4 enemies.

Never said she wanted it. Don't see the point here. The point is, she's not getting it.

But out of all these leads, what that isn't Avoid is relevant? 45% for Continue is better than it looks since that can activate on BOTH strikes, bumping up the percentage of it activating to almost 75%. So on the few things that Lakche ISN'T one rounding, it has a pretty good chance at finishing.

Might is very relevant. Like I said, enemies in FE4 have pretty big HP. Yeah, Continue chance is pretty good. But look at Shanan's. Yes, Lakche can one round well indeed towards endgame. BUT, she'll need more assistance from a healer than Shanan. That's the main point of avoid.

Let's see. An enemy with 20 def (theoretically) and 60 HP (enemies like those are common in this game). Shanan has 51 might and Lakche has 40. No Meteor Sword or Continue involved. So anyway, Shanan does 31 damage twice, killing the enemy. Lakche does 20 damage twice, not killing the enemy. She has to activate Continue to kill this sucker.

"but the chance is high". It's still showing off how much Shanan's higher might helps. Shanan's higher might makes it more reliable and you don't have to rely on Continue all the time unlike Lakche. Continue is activating 3 times in 4 battles. That 1 battle, it's not.

Needing a healer <<< not needing a healer. It still makes Shanan the better character, no matter what you say.

Oh and, let's look at both of their boss slaying potential. The fodder ones don't matter. Ishtar, Alvis, etc.

Blume: Higher avoid means Shanan is more suitable.

Arion: Higher avoid means Shanan is more suitable.

Chapter 10 Julius: Higher avoid means Shanan is more suitable.

Ishtar: Higher avoid and hit means Shanan is more suitable.

Alvis: Higher avoid and hit means Shanan is more suitable.

Hilda: Higher avoid means Shanan is more suitable.

The above still applies, I feel, even if he has closed the durability gap significantly.

Shanan now has +12 might and +33 avoid, those alone make him the better character. The durability gap is pretty significant. Chapter 10 Julius / Alvis / Hilda etc. all have a better chance at killing Lakche. You know what? EVERY enemy has a better chance at killing Lakche. Shanan is a monster however, he'll be dodging most of those things and slaying more.

Shanan's superior dodging and slaying abilities > Lakche's inferior dodging and slaying abilities.

Significantly better until Lakche promotes, and that's assuming Lakche CAN'T one round crap in C7. From when Lakche promotes to Endgame, it's much closer, and Shanan only has a win in avo. Lakche also at one point has a pretty significant win in concrete durability, which does SOMEWHAT compensate for Balmunk. As stated, neither one of them is really dying, anyway. Physic ftw.

Like I said, the might, avoid and Continue and Meteor Sword chances are pretty significant. They're what makes Shanan > Lakche. Might is generally 9 - 20 superior. Avoid is like I said, 30-55 superior and the Continue chances range from 20-60.

Lakche wins in durability? When? It can't compensate to the godliness that is Balmung.

And like I said, not needing healing >>> needing healing.

Also likely true: However, after a certian point, the only things that make him a winner is his avoid lead, which really isn't enough to say that he's crushing Lakche at any given point past Lakche's promotion.

You are seriously underrating Shanan's other leads.

He's not exactly crushing Lakche after she promotes, certainly. But it doesn't change the fact that Shanan is indeed superior to Lakche for every chapter they're both in. The lead is huge in Chapter 7 (maybe the hardest chapter making him shine more compared to her) but it does indeed decrease continually, decreasing the size of the gap, then the size of the gap increases towards endgame, like I just showed.

Edited January 23, 2009 by Shanan

[Dat Nick]

Two Hero swords. If your ass got the Hero Sword from the Lex / Holyn convo, then you don't get the Hero Sword in Chapter 8 from Coruta.

My bad.

And one more thing. Leaf wants that too. Hero Axe fails compared to Hero Sword.

...Leaf of all units wanting a Hero? Yeah, I don't think so.

That's why I said Patty!Holyn. Holyn gives minor Odo blood.

...Does that help sword rank at all? Nothing's mentioned on the subject. Because if it doesn't, Patty's shit out of luck.

What if Rana is too far away?

...I really doubt Rana is going to manage to fall behind Lakche when there's no real move gap between them, Lakche has to slow down to kill stuff, and 1-10 range is pretty effin hueg.

Plus the fact that Lakche NEEDS a healer

She needs healing less and less, and eventually, she doesn't need it at all.

Look at Chapter 6.

I don't have enemy stats on hand.

...Ah to hell with it, that's all I can come up with, so I'm going to have to stop here. Probably gonna cost me the win, but what the hell.

[Seph]

I hope I made your wish come true.

My bad.

While I recall getting only two (Lex-Ayra conversation and Patty conversation) and other people telling me that number, I could definitely be wrong, so I'm going to be suspicious here.

There are three Hero Swords. Nanna and Patty are getting it. By the time you get the third, Lakche is going to be promoted, so people like Leaf and Skasaha may want it. Lakche has like a 50% chance to activate Continue, so the Hero Sword may feel wasted.

...Leaf of all units wanting a Hero? Yeah, I don't think so.

I suggested Leaf since he'll want the Hero Sword to train. He comes rather underleveled, doesn't he? Not at the beginning of Chapter 7 but after it. He may want it at the Chapter 8 Arena and stuff and I don't think he'll have enough cash to buy an Elite Ring. He's too weak to rely on Continue early on, so he'll want a good sword like the Hero Sword.

...Does that help sword rank at all? Nothing's mentioned on the subject. Because if it doesn't, Patty's shit out of luck.

http://serenesforest.net/fe4/holyblood.htm

...I really doubt Rana is going to manage to fall behind Lakche when there's no real move gap between them, Lakche has to slow down to kill stuff, and 1-10 range is pretty effin hueg.

I never used the word "fall behind". This is FE4, maps are hugeeeeeeeee. Rana can do anything, as long as someone needs her healing utility. Your team could be split up, etc.

Libro helps, sure, but it's a point for Shanan. Lakche needs to be healed. Shanan will rarely, rarely get healed.

She needs healing less and less, and eventually, she doesn't need it at all.

Let's check this out. We'll assume that Lakche has 66 avoid in these chapters, and be generous to her and make her level 28 in Chapter 10.

Chapter 10

Lakche is mainly good at killing the people with low hit, but they aren't so common.

Generic Forrest in Chapter 10: 61 HP, 32 might, 116 hit, 30 avoid, 15 AS, 13 def.

Our 28 Lakche with a Silver Sword: 63 HP, 40 might, 140 hit, 25 AS, 66 avoid, 21 def. 45% for Continue, 30% for Meteor Sword.

Lakche is doing 27 damage, so she needs it hit the Forrest 3 times to kill it. The Forrest has 116 hit and Lakche has 66 avoid, so 50% accuracy.

Generic Dark Mage: 59 HP, 35 might, 116 hit, 2 avoid, 3 AS, 8 def.

Lakche can kill it in two hits, but if the Dark Mage attacks from 2 range (plausible, FE4 maps are huge) then he has 50% accuracy.

Hilda also has 112 hit, so she'll have 46% hit on Lakche, but she has 3 leadership stars, and they effect the bosses too, so she will have 66% hit.

Generic Mage Knight: 62 HP, 28 might, 106 hit, 22 avoid, 11 AS, 9 def.

40% accuracy on Lakche, but still good enough to hit her.

There are Duke Knights which have 106 hit, but they get the weapon triangle advantage on her. Now, let's check out the bosses:

Ridale has a Hero Sword, 38 might and 142 hit and 4 leadership stars. So Lakche will be getting hit.

Morigan, a dark mage boss, has 104 hit, so 38 hit. However, she also has 2 leadership stars, so 48 hit.

Epilogue

Since Lakche isn't going to increase in avoid... I'm going to be generous and not include leadership stars.

Generic Forrest Knight in Epilogue: 28 might, 122 hit, 30 avoid, 15 AS, 14 def.

122 - 66 = 56. Yeah.

Most of the enemies have the same hit really as Chapter 10.. so I'm not going to prolong this.

Conclusion: Lakche will be getting hit about half of the time.

Wait, what about Shanan?

During these chapters, Shanan has incredible amounts of avoid, ranging from 95 to 99, he will have little problems avoiding these enemies. He is almost invincible. I'll get the most accurate character out of this lot (barring Ridale since he hits everyone), Hilda:

116 hit against Shanan's 96 avoid. That's 20% accuracy. Now, add the leadership stars. That's 40%. Hilda has 70 HP and 50 might and 19 def, against Shanan's more than 50 HP, 53 might. Shanan will very likely one round her.

I don't have enemy stats on hand.

The axe fighters have like 38 HP at the beginning, while the armor knights have 45 HP. Lakche can't one round without Continue / Meteor Sword.

...Ah to hell with it, that's all I can come up with, so I'm going to have to stop here. Probably gonna cost me the win, but what the hell.

I don't think you could have won with such a character disadvantage.

Edited January 24, 2009 by Shanan

[Mekkah]

voting lakche because she has breasts, obviously.

[Seph]

Just to show Lakche fanboys why using Balmung Lakche is wrong:

Let's consider "excellent, very good, good, bad". Shanan with Balmung is excellent, Lakche without Balmung is very good. Shanan without Balmung is good while Lakche with Balmung is excellent.

Excellent + very good > Excellent + good

You could argue that Shanan and Lakche are too different to be excellent...

30 Shanan: 59 HP, 53 might, 170 hit, 99 avoid, 43 AS, 20 def

30 Lakche: 70 HP, 56 might, 170 hit, 108 avoid, 46 AS, 19 def

Lakche: +11 HP, +3 might, +0 hit, +9 avoid, +3 AS, -1 def.

Avoid doesn't really matter since they'll be dodging like everything anyway, AS is irrelevant since they will be doubling everything, Lakche has 1 less def and the hit is the same. That leaves HP and might. Since Shanan and Lakche will be dodging sooo much, HP doesn't matter much, leaving 3 might. Since Shanan and Lakche will both be one rounding everything, might isn't very important now.

[Dat Nick]

Goddamnit.

You know what I forgot to mention?

Blades.

[Seph]

Nah. Delmud or Skasaha want that.

Plus, it decreases Lakche's avoid.

It wouldn't make a difference. My character was obviously better than yours. It was pretty hopeless in the first place. Not your fault really, but we just wanted to prove a point to the fanboys.

[Mekkah]

What would blades have mattered? Silver Blade still has 10 less mt and 3 more weight than Balmunk. And a lot lot lot less hit.

[Seph]

You need to give a less sarcastic vote and give tips to improve or something.

[Mekkah]

This was a joke debate, there's nothing to say about it and you both know it.

[Seph]

This was a joke debate, there's nothing to say about it and you both know it.

No, I'm not gonna throw this, so Shanan, you better give it your all and kick my ass, otherwise the Lakche lovers are gonna take a dig at you.

1. something said or done to provoke laughter or cause amusement, as a witticism, a short and amusing anecdote, or a prankish act:

Hmm... A very nice joke indeed. Except that was not the intention at all, maybe you should go back to the first post.

Edited January 27, 2009 by Alvis

[Mekkah]

The Shannan side showed stats that were superior. The Lakche side didn't have any other leads at all and simply said "loloverkill".

[Seph]

Thanks for the comment at least.

[riariadne]

shanan obviously won here methinks, and I never played FE4.

... Are the stats really so dang broken?

Edited March 7, 2009 by Reinfleche

[Rei Rei]

shanan obviously won here methinks, and I never played FE4.

... Are the stats really so damn broken?

First off, play, as it is the best FE around.

And yes, some of the characters are really broken, especially a certain one, with a certain tome.