Feminism discussion

[Res]

I like to think of myself as egalitarian - everyone gets treated equally (badly). Bits of my dream include domestic abuse shelters that would be able to cater to anyone, no matter gender/orientation, children in custody battles go to the parent(s) that will do the best job of raising them, and gamers don't have to worry about being harassed about their gender when using voice chat.EDIT: Men's issues include being taken seriously when filing domestic abuse/sexual assault claims, and certain custody cases. On the social side, I think it would be great if a man could cry during a sappy scene, without having to worry about how society will view him.Oh, right, and as for feminism, I refuse to identify as such because the really radical ones piss me off.

For what it's worth, in my brief search for homeless shelters in my city, I did see at least one shelter aimed at domestic violence victims regardless of their gender (save-dv.org).

Deltre - I'll back you for the 'People for the Advancement of Common Sense'!

I definitely agree that there's a white privilege problem; I also think it intersects with rape culture, absolutely; I don't think it exists instead of a rape culture, though.

The definition of 'rape culture' I've seen is a culture that focuses on making the victim take precautions against rape, instead of focusing on stopping rapists. So cautioning people not to get drunk, not to wear short skirts (also; believing that clothing in any way affects rape), and not teaching consent. Rape played for laughs in comedies. And yes, making it difficult for victims to come forward (although that'll always be an issue).

Edit: Not all men are rapists, no. But considering the number of rapes that go unreported, it's likely that more people are rapists than you might think. The numbers vary wildly; one site cites 1 in 4 girls and 1 in 6 boys suffers sexual abuse before the age of 18; this site cites 1 in 5 girls and 1 in 20 boys. That's just children; overall it's thought around 2/3 of rapes (+/- 20% from what I've read) go unreported. And rape culture is something that a great many people, both men and women, perpetuate.

Edited September 17, 2016 by Res

[Rezzy]

Maybe it's just because it rubs me the wrong way, but I really hate it when people say I have some magical sort of privilege, just because I'm white. I got zero assistance from my parents to put me through school. I moved out right after high school and worked a full time job while going to college full time, and I still have a ton of debt.

My Indian medical school friends, who are great people, and I love them, but they have more "privilege" than I do, despite their darker skin, since all their tuition was paid by their parents. The real "privilege" in today's world is money, and it's not tied to skin color.

[eclipse]

Maybe it's just because it rubs me the wrong way, but I really hate it when people say I have some magical sort of privilege, just because I'm white. I got zero assistance from my parents to put me through school. I moved out right after high school and worked a full time job while going to college full time, and I still have a ton of debt.

My Indian medical school friends, who are great people, and I love them, but they have more "privilege" than I do, despite their darker skin, since all their tuition was paid by their parents. The real "privilege" in today's world is money, and it's not tied to skin color.

So, what are your thoughts about flesh-colored bandages?

[Tryhard]

Manly black razors are infinitely better than womanly pink razors in spite of being the same price. In fact, the latter might as well be plastic.

This grave injustice must be corrected.

is this another one of your bad jokes

Feminism should aspire to uplift both to equality. But there's a hell of a lot more urgency to help women.

Agreed.

I feel like this comes down to a question of definitions, so we'll probably just go around in circles, although I do have to ask what percentage of a society has to hold a certain view before it becomes a part of the culture? I may be misunderstanding you, but yes, everyone is different, so the fact that we do have such heavy gender stereotypes present in western culture still - especially in the media - isn't that something to be fought?

Anyway, as a feminist, I'm certainly not out to criticize solely men, and I'd definitely not wish to associate with anyone whose purpose was to do that, either.

To take an example: my husband is short (5'6), he's soft-spoken; he's been teased and ignored for both those reasons, usually (though not solely) by other men. That's because a patriarchal society prefers its men to be tall and confident.

I do believe gender roles exist, and perhaps I didn't really express myself clearly. Some of them have lessened over time, such that it is now far more acceptable for men to become stay-at-home fathers, and for women to pursue their careers in general. I don't think it really has to do with an arbitrary percentage, really, because stereotypes have always existed and will always continue to do so.

I don't imagine you are. I don't think most are, really. But talking about 'masculine' traits seems like a copout to me, because it can always be intepreted that confidence, aggression etc. can always be correlated to what people think men should be regardless of how a lot of men don't follow those standards at all. There's unfair stereotypes against both men and women, but is this really an indication of systematic oppression by itself? In my opinion, no. That's not to say that you shouldn't fight against the harmful aspects of stereotyping of such, I just don't think feminism is the only movement that is required to do so. Like I said, I have difficulty identifying as a feminist if I don't agree with one of their core underlying priniciples, the patriarchy. So I suppose that I agree with the intention, but find it hard to follow such a thing.

Well, there's another issue in that your macho man isn't encouraged to show weakness or pain - which trips to the doctor indicate. So you have a society in which men are reluctant to seek medical help until forced to.

Wouldn't a patriarchly society want men to be able to get the treatment they need the most? Why would they be discouraging men to go to the doctor? Male health should be of utmost importance in this case, showing of weakness be damned.

Third wave feminism is actually pretty inclusive; if there's a men-hating wave of feminism (although that's usually been confined to a percentage of feminists rather than the wave as a whole) it's probably second-wave feminism. Third wave's aiming to be more encompassing of all races and religions and aims to break down gender stereotypes to be more accepting of feminine women and non-binary people.

I'm not entirely opposed to seeing this considering second-wave feminism was likely concerned with women and nothing else excluding other disadvantaged groups, but I'm not really sure about the direction that third wave feminism is going towards. To put an example of what I mean, this was an article about an incident that fell under feminism a while ago that as far as I know wasn't exactly condemned by feminists.

http://www.theverge.com/2014/11/13/7213819/your-bowling-shirt-is-holding-back-progress

"I don't care if you landed a spacecraft on a comet, your shirt is sexist and ostracizing." I think a title like that on its own almost seems like a parody, but people really went along with the idea in that this scientists shirt content seemed to matter at all. I know feminism encompasses a wide range of topics, but it seems as though a lot of it has turned towards media today - movies, video games and fiction in general. While I don't discredit the idea of these, and they aren't necessarily wrong, I feel as though feminism has a trouble of staying on target. Especially since you may make the argument that these aren't real issues. I'm not sure I can be as dismissive as that, but I can't deny their importance is sort of diminished.

My Indian medical school friends, who are great people, and I love them, but they have more "privilege" than I do, despite their darker skin, since all their tuition was paid by their parents. The real "privilege" in today's world is money, and it's not tied to skin color.

Not that their privilege makes them bad people either, which unfortunately sometimes seems to be the implication. But I have already said what I thought of privilege before, so I'm not really going into it. Edited September 17, 2016 by Tryhard

[Crysta]

You will be looked at differently because of your skin color.

Just like when you're looked at differently when you're a female, in certain situations.

It's a lot more complicated than just wealth.

is this another one of your bad jokes

nope

Edited September 17, 2016 by Crysta

[Rezzy]

So, what are your thoughts about flesh-colored bandages?

They aren't pale and freckled like my skin, so they must be racist.

And I don't hold my friends' wealth against them, I'll want to provide for my kids, too, to make life a little bit easier for them.

Edited September 17, 2016 by Rezzy

[Res]

Tryhard - it's not that society explicitly discourages men from going to the doctor, but that society presents an image of s man that shouldn't require a visit to the doctor. However, once men do seek out a doctor, they are more likely to be taken seriously and to be treated accordingly.

So: A greater percentage of women than men seek preventative care, but a greater percentage of men than women receive appropriate care when there's actually an issue. There's a study on gender differences in healthcare here; page 17 has some statistics.

I suppose the focus is often lost (I feel like I've meandered enough in this thread as it is) because there are issues that seep into almost every aspect of life.

[Time the Crestfallen]

The definition of 'rape culture' I've seen is a culture that focuses on making the victim take precautions against rape, instead of focusing on stopping rapists. So cautioning people not to get drunk, not to wear short skirts (also; believing that clothing in any way affects rape), and not teaching consent. Rape played for laughs in comedies. And yes, making it difficult for victims to come forward (although that'll always be an issue).

I thought it was a culture where rape is "pervasive and normalised". Ah well.

Anyway, the issue I take with this is that men are already taught not to rape. I had four official seminars for this during primary and high school (one in year 6, than one in years 10, 11 and 12) and the subject of rape came up pretty much any time a subject of mine covered alcohol, sex education and drugs (which was a lot, since I took PE). I have been educated very thoroughly on consent, alcohol, the whole she-bang. Some of the messages were very reasonable, others not so much. I was told that if a man and a women who are equally drunk have sex, than the man is probably gonna get in trouble with the law.

Two things; first of all, every seminar on 'don't rape' was presented alongside a seminar for women on how to protect themselves from rape. Would you say that is not the most reasonable solution? Teaching men not to rape and teaching women how to protect themselves is probably the best solution.

The other thing is that, when I hear 'teach men not to rape' I'm not getting frustrated because 'not all men are rapists', it's because we've already been taught not to. Several times. Without meaning to sound presumptuous or rude, I feel confident saying that I've been taught not to rape more times than you've been told why or how to defend yourself. The problem lies now with all men, but with two groups of people; the mentally ill, which is another can of worms entirely, and the minority of men who've been exposed to at least 15+ years of 'rape is bad' messages, taught what consent means and how to know when it isn't being given and gone 'lol na, Imma do it anyway' and that group of people probably aren't the sort to listen to any sort of message alone those lines.

And that's why I take issue with the 'teach men not to rape' thing past high school. Yes, it's very important and I'm glad for it, but past high school the people who get charged with rape are the sort who aren't going to listen, no matter how often you teach them and, no matter how we may try, there are always going to be rapists out there, just like there will always be thieves, murderers and other criminals, and saying that we shouldn't know how to protect ourselves from such people strikes me as at best dangerously naive and downright willfully ignorant at worst.

Edited September 17, 2016 by Phillius

[Tryhard]

I don't think "don't rape" is particularly effective to begin with - people predisposed to committing rape aren't going to care if you just tell them that. If you show them that having empathy for other human beings is important, they would know that it is a horrific and unacceptable act under any circumstances, but that isn't really taught well. It also bothers me that it is almost always phrased as men-on-women sexual assault or rape (almost always 'teach men not to rape women'), as if men can't rape or sexually assault other men and women don't rape or sexually assault at all.

Edited September 17, 2016 by Tryhard

[Crysta]

The problem with that is the fact that a man being raped is perceived much differently than a woman being raped - by both genders. It makes coming forward and talking about it much harder, much less taking any preventive measures unique to that situation.

I mean, you could go ahead and give women the same seminars, but it'd be just about as effective (and you'd probably see much more eye-rolling).

Edited September 17, 2016 by Crysta

[Time the Crestfallen]

I don't think "don't rape" is particularly effective to begin with - people predisposed to committing rape aren't going to care if you just tell them that. If you show them that having empathy for other human beings is important, they would know that it is a horrific and unacceptable act under any circumstances, but that isn't really taught well. It also bothers me that it is almost always phrased as men-on-women sexual assault or rape (almost always 'teach men'), as if men can't rape or sexually assault other men and women don't rape or sexually assault at all.

Well in England, women literally can't be legally charged with rape. I mean shit, the FBI only changed their definition to include males in 2012 if I remember correctly.

[Res]

Hey, that's great that you were given so much education (not sarcasm, honestly!). I don't recall receiving any such education myself.

I also thought your definition was the definition, before I looked it up. Although I think the two definitions go hand-in-hand; the prevalent question when someone is raped still seems to be, 'what did/didn't the victim do?'

It's disappointing to hear the seminar on how to protect yourself from rape was only for women. And certainly I agree that both types of lesson should go hand-in-hand (although, I've never received a lesson on how to avoid rape, but I wonder if it focuses largely on avoiding rape by strangers, or whether it includes rape by family and friends, too?), but the question is - do such lessons then give people license to say, 'well, they knew better?' I'm all for people taking the necessary precautions to protect themselves, but sometimes people are raped regardless - and it's important the victim then not be blamed. Like you say, rapists are never going to go away, but the public's attitude towards victims can be changed.

Did you read my post at the top of page 2? It'd be great, in my opinion, if the focus was on education at a really young age.

There are also lots of attitudes that go hand-in-hand with rape culture that I'd love to see go away: purity culture, jokes about fathers having shotguns to protect their daughters (makes my skin crawl), etc.

Edit: I agree with Tryhard's post.

Edited September 17, 2016 by Res

[eclipse]

Honestly, it should be something like "respect other people's boundaries and have some empathy" along with "be observant of your surroundings". Rape is a nasty, complicated can of worms, but some of the skills taught specifically for that situation can be used elsewhere.

[Tryhard]

I mean, you could go ahead and give women the same seminars, but it'd be just about as effective (and you'd probably see much more eye-rolling).

That's what I mean. I don't think either would be really effective. I don't have an easy solution, though.

Well in England, women literally can't be legally charged with rape. I mean shit, the FBI only changed their definition to include males in 2012 if I remember correctly.

Really? I have never heard of that. I'll look myself, but have you got a link to a source about that?

[Res]

Honestly, it should be something like "respect other people's boundaries and have some empathy" along with "be observant of your surroundings". Rape is a nasty, complicated can of worms, but some of the skills taught specifically for that situation can be used elsewhere.

Yes!

Also, I've been trying to use gender-neutral terms in recognition of the fact that a considerable percentage of rape victims are men, and women can absolutely be rapists.

[Time the Crestfallen]

Really? I have never heard of that. I'll look myself, but have you got a link to a source about that?

USA: http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-01-06/fbi-rape-definition-adds-men/52398350/1

England: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/part/1

[Life]

What platforms are being sought and what mens' issues need addressing?

Serious question, btw. I don't doubt they exist but there's a lot of vagueness.

Men's suicide rate is climbing at an alarming rate.

[VantagePoint]

Men's suicide rate is climbing at an alarming rate.

- Prostate Cancer underfunded.

- Custody issues (To address the study one poster linked to, the source was removed, I was told the study was 2 decades old, if both sides know there's a bias in favor of one side, a pre trial aggrement is more likely, fathers spending less time with children after divorce would indicate they are losing custory battles, and ignores that, yes, woman are societally favored over men as caretakers as evidented by the feminine being associated with child care, soliciting sex from minors resulting in far more woman walking or getting far less time).

- Lackluster school performance.

- Men being less interested in college as time goes on. (Woman make up the majority of people in college)

- Inherent societal bias for woman (Woman are wonderful effect) (Men can stop rape) (Man up and marry)

- Victims of the majority of violent crimes in general.

- Longer prison sentences than woman.

Edited September 18, 2016 by VantagePoint

[Crysta]

Are the same suicide hotlines/help groups not available to men as well?

- Prostate Cancer underfunded.

- Custody issues (To address the study one poster linked to, the source was removed, I was told the study was 2 decades old, if both sides know there's a bias in favor of one side, a pre trial aggrement is more likely, fathers spending less time with children after divorce would indicate they are losing custory battles, and ignores that, yes, woman are societally favored over men as caretakers as evidented by the feminine being associated with child care, soliciting sex from minors resulting in far more woman walking or getting far less time).

- Lackluster school performance.

- Men being less interested in college as time goes on. (Woman make up the majority of people in college)

- Inherent societal bias for woman (Woman are wonderful effect) (Men can stop rape) (Man up and marry)

- Victims of the majority of violent crimes in general.

- Longer prison sentences than woman.

1) True, sadly. My father died of prostate cancer. My father also didn't go to the doctor until it was in it's terminal stages. I would recommend putting money there, but I would also drive home how frequently it occurs in men and how vital it is to get regular check-ups as you get older.

2) Also true. It's worth noting which parent is usually entrusted with child care when a couple is together, though. Men also favor women in these roles so it's not likely going to change any time soon unless there's a dramatic paradigm shift in thinking. One of which I see very little effort in making outside of discussions like these.

3) True. Last thing I read on this issue contended that the reading curriculum favored "girl interests" more but I have no idea how Oliver Twist and Huckleberry Finn have feminine undertones. The solution would be to find a way to engage young boys more and this research would probably be better done by those who were once young boys themselves.

4) Also true. Not sure how to remedy this. Probably linked to #3 in some regard; I suspect if you enjoy school in your early years you're likely to continue to attend.

5) I don't get this. If there was an inherent bias towards women/womanliness I don't think there would be such a fear of men being perceived as feminine or less manly; that tells me there is a preference and it's not in my favor. You will find fields in which women may have a slight advantage than men, but they're far and few in between. Certainly doesn't cover the entirety of society.

6) Men are also the perpetrators of the majority of violent crimes in general. Though woman-on-man violence is under-reported and less apt to be taken seriously. Re: #5. Personally I think you should uppercut them back. This is a crime issue.

7) Don't know the actual statistics for this but considering #6 and how often people get their sentences shortened for "good behavior" I wouldn't doubt it.

A lot of the above suggestions aren't actually incompatible with feminism goals. What you want and what the movement wants aren't mutually exclusive, and it's not really a competition when we're often on the same side.

Edited September 18, 2016 by Crysta

[VantagePoint]

5) I don't get this. If there was an inherent bias towards women/womanliness I don't think there would be such a fear of men being perceived as feminine or less manly; that tells me there is a preference and it's not in my favor. You will find fields in which women may have a slight advantage than men, but they're far and few in between. Certainly doesn't cover the entirety of society.

That tells me there's a negative stigma towards not falling in with your traditional gender roles, and feminism has only made progress in regards to woman exhibiting masculine traits by claiming it' an attempt to keep woman barefoot and pregnant. For men that exhibit feminine qualities, you don't see feminists get particularly outraged in their favor beyond "it's okay to not conform toyour traditional gener roles. When you have marriage rates declining and one of the cited reasons is "woman aren't woman anymore", then I don't think you have any argument saying that we live in a patriarcial society that favors men.

Quite simply put, there's just been a ton of activism for the idea that woman can be more than homemakers, but very little in terms of getting rid of the root socetial belief that men are more disposable than woman and thus, getting rid of the negative stigma of men not being the shining paragons of chivalry.

6) Men are also the perpetrators of the majority of violent crimes in general. Though woman-on-man violence is under-reported and less apt to be taken seriously. Re: #5. Personally I think you should uppercut them back. This is a crime issue.

So? Who cares about who perpetrates the crime? The argument isn't that woman can just murder men in the streets and no one cares, the argument is just that society just doesn't care as much about the wellbeing of men as the do woman, and by extension, the "patriarchy" can't exist.

A lot of the above suggestions aren't actually incompatible with feminism goals. What you want and what the movement wants aren't mutually exclusive, and it's not really a competition when we're often on the same side.

And the movement hasn't shown much in the way of assistance towards the issues of men, their main concern is the issues of woman. This is fine, but you can't present feminism as benefiting everyone when it's majorly benefiting woman and by extension, you can't label everyone that does't identify as a feminist as a bigot. You can't have things like the Duluth Model, which completely dismisses domestic violence perpetrated by woman by attributing it to men, created by feminist theory, then claim they are concerned about men's rights.

7) Don't know the actual statistics for this but considering #6 and how often people get their sentences shortened for "good behavior" I wouldn't doubt it.

Just a small taste.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11911629/Babysitter-spared-jail-after-having-sex-with-boy-aged-11.html

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/scottsdale/2016/09/16/former-scottsdale-teacher-and-coach-gets-10-years-prison-sexual-conduct-student/90507784/

Edited September 18, 2016 by VantagePoint

[eclipse]

- Prostate Cancer underfunded.

- Custody issues (To address the study one poster linked to, the source was removed, I was told the study was 2 decades old, if both sides know there's a bias in favor of one side, a pre trial aggrement is more likely, fathers spending less time with children after divorce would indicate they are losing custory battles, and ignores that, yes, woman are societally favored over men as caretakers as evidented by the feminine being associated with child care, soliciting sex from minors resulting in far more woman walking or getting far less time).

- Lackluster school performance.

- Men being less interested in college as time goes on. (Woman make up the majority of people in college)

- Inherent societal bias for woman (Woman are wonderful effect) (Men can stop rape) (Man up and marry)

- Victims of the majority of violent crimes in general.

- Longer prison sentences than woman.

Lovely list. What is your stance on feminism in general?

[VantagePoint]

Lovely list. What is your stance on feminism in general?

My only stance of feminism is that it's not an equality movement. You can't effectively ignore an entire side's problems and claim it's equality. It's just a cheap way of creating a false dichotomy between "feminist" and "bigot" so that anyone that doesn't agree with you is just a bigot. I feel that the feminists that ARE for equality are in no way the majority and they most certainly aren't the ones that get press coverage and enact change, which is a problem if your equality movement has been effectively highjacked. Feminists that pay more tha lip service to men's right issues are just egalitarianists.

[Res]

VantagePoint - right, but women aren't actively campaigning against men, either. And most feminists do support getting rid of gender roles, it's just that their focus is heavier on women's issues. Men are fully welcome to start telling other men that it's okay to exhibit feminine traits.

It's worth bringing up that ovarian cancer receives around 1/6th of the funding of breast cancer, although it affects something like 1/3 of the women that breast cancer affects. Really, the problem is breast cancer receiving more attention than all the other sex-related cancers (both men and women) because it's breasts. And getting doctors to recognize ovarian cancer has been really hard, which is why currently death rates are pretty high.

And most states now have it written in law that neither parent be given preference automatically in custody cases. The best way for more fathers to get custody is to start encouraging fathers to do more of the day to day parenting duties. Courts look at things like who does bathtime, bedtime, who feeds the kids, who arranges dr appointments, etc. It's also worth noting that custody doesn't equal visitation; a divorce where the woman has primary custody may still see the kids going to their father's house on a regular basis.

[Tryhard]

It is worth noting that it is less common to consider yourself a feminist today in polls - I've seen ones that place Americans at only 18% that say they consider themselves feminists. I believe this was higher in the past such as 33% in 1992.
http://nytlive.nytimes.com/womenintheworld/2015/04/09/82-percent-of-americans-dont-consider-themselves-feminists-poll-shows/

Another interesting aspect is that "the majority of those asked (52%) were strongly definitive in declaring they were NOT Feminists - a trend found to be more prominent among women than among men."

Edited September 18, 2016 by Tryhard

[eclipse]

Men can get breast cancer, as well.

My only stance of feminism is that it's not an equality movement. You can't effectively ignore an entire side's problems and claim it's equality. It's just a cheap way of creating a false dichotomy between "feminist" and "bigot" so that anyone that doesn't agree with you is just a bigot. I feel that the feminists that ARE for equality are in no way the majority and they most certainly aren't the ones that get press coverage and enact change, which is a problem if your equality movement has been effectively highjacked. Feminists that pay more tha lip service to men's right issues are just egalitarianists.

Have you read through the entire thread, taking into account everyone's stance, before posting? If not, I strongly suggest reading through it.